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Jane Velez-Mitchell
Jackson Autopsy Photos Shown at Trial; Missing Baby Lisa Turns 11 Months Today
Aired October 11, 2011 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAEL JACKSON, POP STAR: Didn`t want to be an orphan. I love them because I didn`t have a childhood. I had no childhood.
CONRAD MURRAY, ON TRIAL FOR MICHAEL JACKSON`S DEATH: And I -- she was like my daughter. She said, "You have a lot of patients. You save people from heart attacks. Couldn`t save my dad."
I said, "I tried my best."
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, Michael was murdered. He was a doctor, and he had a role to play in the Jackson.
MURRAY: "Dr. Murray, I know you tried your best. But I`m really sad. I`m really sad."
JACKSON: Don`t have enough hope, no more hope.
MURRAY: "When I wake up in the morning, I won`t be able to see my daddy."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST (voice-over): Breaking news tonight, at the Michael Jackson death trial, as the prosecution shows graphic autopsy photos of the King of Pop.
Good evening. I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, coming to you live from Los Angeles.
People broke down, they wept when they saw Michael Jackson`s autopsy photo. Many Michael Jackson fans are very upset over this evidence, but it is evidence. It was shown at the trial, so we`ve decided to show it to you. But we want to warn you: we`re going to only show it once, and then for a very short period of time. So here goes.
It`s disturbing. But one of the photos shows a deceased Michael Jackson lying on a hospital gurney, taken moments after the singer died. There`s one more photo we`re going to show you a little bit later in this newscast. Disturbing stuff, upsetting. You get a visceral reaction.
Do you think Michael Jackson looked too thin? Too frail? Paramedics who responded said they thought he was so thin that he might be a hospice patient. But apparently, the doctor who did the autopsy for the coroner`s office does not agree. Listen to how he described Michael Jackson.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. CHRISTOPHER ROGERS, PERFORMED AUTOPSY ON MICHAEL JACKSON: He was healthier than the average person of his age. He was 5`9" and weighed 136 pounds.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, wouldn`t that suggest that Michael Jackson didn`t have to die? That he was healthy?
According to the coroner`s office, also, today, we heard from the defendant`s doctors. Dr. Conrad Murray`s own lips about the very moment when Michael`s children heard that their father was dead. Listen to what Dr. Murray told cops.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MURRAY: They cried and cried and cried. The daughter uttered a lot of words of unhappiness and how she couldn`t live without her dad and she didn`t want to be an orphan. And really sad. Real sad. She`s like my daughter. And I told her, you know, we will take care of her. And said that he would take care of her also.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. So, you kind of get the impression that Dr. Conrad Murray is a spin doctor. A lot of self-serving comments weaved into his conversation.
I want to bring in famed attorney to the stars, Mark Geragos.
Mark, you`ve been monitoring, monitoring this trial, which is very complicated, which has some very upsetting evidence, and also some very emotional evidence. And also some very boring and dry evidence. It`s a mishmash. Let`s first start with the photo we just saw, this very disturbing photo, the autopsy photo.
MARK GERAGOS, ATTORNEY: Yes, which I wish you hadn`t showed, I mean, in a lot of ways. Usually, in cases where I don`t know the deceased, it`s upsetting enough, and you kind of can get into the heads of the family. Here, I knew the deceased, and that`s not an image that I think Michael would ever want. I know for a fact that the family would never want out there. It`s disturbing evidence.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Well, let me say this, Mark, and you and I love to spar a little bit. I say, don`t blame the messenger. This was a decision made by the prosecution to release this photo, to put it up in open court.
We are covering the trial. We`re basically the messenger of whatever it is that either side`s delivering. They`re thinking that this is compelling evidence. We`ve been debating for days whether or not they should show this photo, but for us to start essentially playing God with the court system and saying, "Well, we`re going to show this piece of evidence. We`re not going to show that." We showed it very -- in a very, very...
GERAGOS: But the media already does that. That`s such a copout. The media already, on sexual allegations of a sexual crime, they don`t reveal the name, let alone pictures. They don`t reveal the name of the complaining witness or the victim.
There`s no reason in the world that the media needs to play this. And frankly, I would wonder why both the prosecution and the defense didn`t ask the judge to seal that and to not allow that to be out to the media. I`ve done that. Superior court judges have been upheld on a ruling on that basis, and that`s frankly what should have been done here.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Mark, I think you answered your own question, because it was within the power of the judge to say, "We`re going to show this, but we`re not going to exhibit it to the public." This is a very personal photo. It is very uncomfortable to look at.
Certainly, I wonder -- this is not a case of a shooting or a stabbing -- why the prosecution even needs to show it. But be that as it may, the judge did issue a gag order. Maybe we should -- maybe we should wonder why they allowed this out.
GERAGOS: Well, I`ll put the blame where I think it precisely should be laid. I think either the prosecution or the defense should have made a motion. I don`t know if they did. Maybe they did and it was denied. But as far as I know, they did not, to not have that released, No. 1.
And No. 2, as I said before, the media exercises restraint all the time in other situations, with releasing names, with releasing pictures. They didn`t have to do this.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, we`ll agree to disagree. I think we`ve shown it judiciously, and for every person who might say don`t show it, there`s maybe, I don`t know, many, many other people who say, "I`ll decide whether I should see it or not," and we did issue a warning.
GERAGOS: Yes, but why patronize to the most ghoulish aspects of the - - of people who are watching? I don`t know...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: You know what...
GERAGOS: To say that there are people who want to see it. Have you ever looked on some of the Internet -- the comment boards and see what people say?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Of course, I do.
GERAGOS: And the lowest common denominator is what it devolves to.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, listen...
GERAGOS: So we`ll agree to disagree on that.
I will tell you strategically, I don`t understand what the point of it is...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes.
GERAGOS: ... to put that into evidence at this point. I would agree with you, it isn`t a shooting or a stabbing. There isn`t a decision that`s going to be made by looking at the body that is going to tell you, this is how it happened or there was upwards thrust of a knife or that there was a downward thrust of the bullet or something like that.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Exactly.
GERAGOS: All of this has to do with the internal toxicology. This kind of picture is not only ghoulish, it`s, to some degree, I think it`s playing to the crowd, and it`s -- I think it`s wrong.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I think -- you and I are agreeing that we both wonder what exactly does it bring to the table in terms of this trial? So we found something a little bit that we could agree on.
GERAGOS: All right, we`re on a roll.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: We`re on a roll. Let`s talk about Dr. Conrad Murray`s interview with law enforcement two days after Michael Jackson died. He went to the Ritz Carlton in Marina del Rey, a beautiful hotel -- I`ve been there -- and he talked to cops, and he seemed to be a spin doctor along with a medical doctor.
He actually sort of praises himself with how he told Michael Jackson`s kids that their famous father had passed away. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MURRAY: They were weeping, really weeping. I stayed there, I hugged them all, gave them comfort, to Paris, comfort to Prince, comfort to Blanket. Because wherever they were sick, they always asked for Dr. Conrad. "Please call Dr. Conrad, Daddy, you know." I gave them comfort.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, basically, a lot of people are saying he was very clever by sort of swimming toward the wave. He sees big trouble coming. He meets with the cops, with Ed Chernoff, his now lead defense attorney. And in every other word, he is sort of painting a picture of himself as a very concerned, loving, compassionate, precise doctor.
Did he pull a fast one over on the cops? And why did the prosecution play this?
GERAGOS: You know, normally the gut reaction of every defense lawyer is, if your client is asked to come in and talk to the cops, is you say, "Sorry, Charlie, I`m not going to do it."
Take a look at some of the L.A. cases where that has -- where somebody has violated the rule, and it turned out well for them. Robert Blake. You remember Harland Braun resigned rather than let Robert Blake do that Barbara Walters interview.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Right.
GERAGOS: They ended up playing the Robert Blake interview. He was acquitted.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Acquitted.
GERAGOS: They did the same thing when I was...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And he thanked Barbara Walters.
GERAGOS: He thanked Barbara Walters because he didn`t have to get on stand, and he didn`t have to get cross-examined. I`ve had it happen with Susan McDougal. She went and did an interview with Diane Sawyer. We played it in Little Rock, the office of independent council.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes.
GERAGOS: We then, after, played the excerpts, and you know, it ended up a lot of the jurors said that`s why they acquitted her on obstruction.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, so I honestly think that it probably wasn`t the smartest idea for the prosecution to play this long interview.
GERAGOS: I...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: It`s like testifying without having to be cross- examined.
GERAGOS: That`s exactly right, and you and I have talked about this, but not for a week. I`m not so sure that the prosecution couldn`t have done this case in about half the time, and they would have been better off just getting in and getting out. The longer this goes on, the worse it gets for the prosecution.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I agree. It reminds me of making a dish, which I`ve done many times, and I add one too many spices.
GERAGOS: Never invite me over for meals.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I will invite you over soon, when I learn how to cook.
GERAGOS: Thank you.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: But I mess up a lot of meals, because I don`t know when to stop. And I think it`s the prosecution is sort of suffering from the same thing. Or as they say in the movie-making business, you have to learn to cut your scenes, and that`s the hardest -- the hardest part, is cut a scene that you`ve fallen in love with.
GERAGOS: There`s a tendency in circumstantial evidence cases, which this clearly is, to over try the case, on both sides. And I think at this point, the prosecution is starting to lose whatever momentum they may have had.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I kind of agree with you. Now, during Dr. Conrad Murray`s interview with the cops, he reveals the odd nickname "milk" that Michael Jackson used for his Propofol, but the interesting thing about this is the police reaction. Check this out.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MURRAY: He said, "I would like to have some milk."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Milk?
About what time was this?
MURRAY: He said, "Please, please give me some so I can sleep, because I need it."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hot milk or warm...
MURRAY: Just the milk.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And what...
MURRAY: He was familiar with...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What is the medicine?
MURRAY: Called Propofol.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: What you might not have been able to hear very clearly, the cops asked, "Doctor, was it hot milk or cold milk?" To me that shows that the cops were really sort of behind the eight-ball at the start of this. They had a huge learning curve. They`re not doctors.
GERAGOS: It reminds me of the Santa Barbara case with Michael where the cops didn`t really know what Jesus juice was at the beginning.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Right.
GERAGOS: So I guess Michael`s made a step down from Jesus juice to milk.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. But it sort of reminds me that this is all about medicine, and I think that everybody who thinks this is a slam dunk for the prosecution, every time we have a medical question, everybody huddles and we all disagree, well, what does that mean, and where was this tube? In confusion, there can be reasonable doubt.
Mark Geragos, thank you for coming on. It`s always great to have you.
GERAGOS: Always good to see you. I`ll wait for that invitation to have your cook make a meal for me.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Absolutely. When I get a chef, you`ll be the first.
GERAGOS: Thank you.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And it will be a vegan dinner.
GERAGOS: Thank.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: We`re just getting started on everything Michael Jackson. We`re going to talk next to the attorney for Michael Jackson`s dermatologist, the one and only Arnie Klein`s attorney, a name at the center of this huge controversial trial, next.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think part of the reason that Michael had him there, whether it was legal or not, whether it was right or not, he was there. He should have been the guy to step in and help Michael when something went wrong.
I don`t -- I don`t believe Michael was administering the drug himself. What would he need the doctor there for if he was doing that?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MURRAY: His worst days on the set is when he would go into Dr. Klein`s office, which is about three times a week. And when he came back, he was basically wasted and took at least 24 hours for recovery. Why wouldn`t he have shared with me the fact that he was sharing a dermatologist, or another doctor, for any kind of treatment? That he did not share.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Is Dr. Conrad Murray throwing Michael Jackson`s friend, the dermatologist doctor, Arnie Klein, under the bus?
Once again, Dr. Klein`s name comes up during testimony at the Michael Jackson death trial today. And Dr. Murray could be heard telling cops that Michael would go on secret visits to Dr. Klein`s office and come back slurring. Allegedly, according to Dr. Murray.
Tonight in an ISSUES exclusive, I am joined by the attorney for Michael Jackson`s dermatologist, Dr. Arnie Klein, Garo Ghazarian.
Thank you for being here, Mr. Ghazarian. Once again, your client is being thrown under the bus by Dr. Conrad Murray, the defendant, in the Michael Jackson homicide case. Your reaction, sir?
GARO GHAZARIAN, ATTORNEY FOR ARNIE KLEIN: Well, first of all, they need to go through me to throw him under the bus or anything else, and that`s not going to happen...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes.
GHAZARIAN: ... as long as I`m on it. Because nobody was doing any secret meetings. And when the medical records come out, you know, I`ve been hearing enough about daily visits, three times a week visits. You all will see that, in the month of June, three weeks before Michael Jackson`s unfortunate death, he had seen my client three times. Three times in three weeks. That`s what you will see.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK. Now, let me ask you this question. When he visited Dr. Klein, did he get Demerol? And if so, for what?
GHAZARIAN: Well, here`s what I`m going to say about that. I`m not going to get into medical procedures. The medical records speak for themselves. I`ve consulted medical experts. And I believe the record will show that he did receive this substance known as Demerol, but I also believe that it will show to be not in qualities or quantities that are exceeding the use and the purpose for it.
The experts that I`ve consulted, who are very renowned, who are chief of anesthesiologist at a very renowned hospital, will tell you and will tell all those other experts and the pundits that have been talking for the last several weeks that they`re wrong. They`re wrong. Dr. Klein has done nothing, nothing wrong. If he had, he would be the one that would be charged. Which is, of course, you know, it takes me back to my initial saying. SODI, SODI, SODI. Some other dude did it. Well, Dr. Klein did not do it.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. And there are analysts who say that when somebody, even before they`re charged, starts pointing the finger at somebody else, that that`s a sign of consciousness of guilt, because they`re proactively pointing the finger at someone else.
Now, Dr. Conrad Murray tells cops in this audiotaped interview that Michael, as you just heard one side, here`s his claim: that Michael would see Dr. Klein three times a week. We`re going to analyze that a little bit more. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MURRAY: I was not aware of any other medications that he was taking, but I heard that he was seeing Dr. Klein, three times a week, in Beverly Hills. And he never disclosed that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, he says he was not aware of any other medications that Michael might have been taking. But we know that there were medicine bottles all over Michael Jackson`s room. And one of them was prescribed by Dr. Arnie Klein. So how could he say -- how could Dr. Conrad Murray say that he was not aware that Michael was getting any other medications?
GHAZARIAN: Well, all I can say is this, if I went to the doctor`s office and the doctor left the room, there would not be a host of medications there for me to have with and do with as I see fit. Let alone in my home, if I had a physician, to leave medication all over the place and disappear.
I`m not going to prosecute this man, but I want to say something here on your show, Jane, for the first time. There will come a time that I will produce conclusive evidence that Michael Jackson walked in and walked out of his own free will and of his own ability, without the need of any assistance, not staggering, not delirious, and not stuttering, and not drugged up, as Conrad Murray`s lawyers have suggested.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Well, let me ask you one other question. I think it goes to the heart of the matter. You say that Michael Jackson visited Dr. Klein four days prior to his death. You also said Demerol only lasts a day or two in your system. Now, is it possible, given that he hadn`t had Demerol in four days, that he was suffering from Demerol withdrawal that created the insomnia, briefly?
GHAZARIAN: Well, I don`t think so, because Demerol -- first of all, in order to be addicted to Demerol, one has to take Demerol on a regular basis, and the record -- the medical records that I`ve reviewed on behalf of my client do not support such an addiction. If he had a dependency, he may have had a dependency, but the records do not support an addiction or a dependency, in my opinion.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, that`s why we have you here. We want to be fair. We want to get all sides of the story. And thank you...
GHAZARIAN: Thank you.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: ... so much for your defense of your client. More in a second.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s a 10-month-old that isn`t where she belongs, and we`re trying to find that child.
JEREMY IRWIN, FATHER OF MISSING GIRL: We just want...
DEBORAH BRADLEY, MOTHER OF MISSING GIRL: We just want our baby back. Please. Bring her home.
IRWIN: Came home from work. The front door was unlocked. Most of the lights were on in the house. And the window was -- in the front was open.
BRADLEY: She`s everything. She`s our little girl. She`s completed our family.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The disappearance of infants is a very rare event in America. When an infant does go missing, in most of the cases, suspicion falls upon members of the family.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: We`ll have more on the Michael Jackson death trial in a moment, but the other major story we`re following tonight on ISSUES is the desperate search for baby Lisa Irwin in Kansas City, Missouri. Where is this beautiful child?
The precious little girl with the beautiful smile vanished one week ago today. She turns 11 months old. This is so sad. Police say Lisa`s mom, Deborah Bradley, put her into a crib last Monday night at 10:30 and the child hasn`t been seen since. Here`s how her dad, Jeremy Irwin, described what he saw when he returned home at about 4:30 in the morning from his overnight job. Check this out.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
IRWIN: When I came home from work, the front door was unlocked. Most of the lights were on in the house, and the window was -- in the front was open. Obviously, all very unusual. And then I started checking on the kids. Checked on the boys first, and then we checked on here, and that`s when we realized that she was gone.
(END VIDEO CIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Mike Brooks, today authorities searched a well under the deck of an abandoned house a couple of blocks from baby Lisa`s home. It`s about, well, 3 feet wide, and we have an aerial view of it, but they didn`t find anything. What do you know on this case, Mike?
MIKE BROOKS, HLN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: No, apparently -- it wasn`t received -- they say, well, it came from a tip -- no, it didn`t come from a tip. It came from law enforcement just canvassing the area, Jane. And it`s about five blocks from where little Lisa disappeared. And it`s under a deck of a vacant house. The house has been vacant for about four years.
They lowered a firefighter down this cistern or well, and they thought they felt something under the water. They brought in some equipment. They drained that well and went back down, because it was very, very dark. Found absolutely nothing. Turned up nothing at all. So, you know, that was another dead end.
But, you know, there had been talk, too, Jane, that the mother was -- Deborah Bradley, was about to be arrested and charged. But law enforcement says, "No, no, no, no. That is not happening." That they have no suspects right now, and you`re still following up on leads and tips. But, you know, no suspects; no, you know -- I don`t like the term "person of interest."
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Mike, I have to ask you, why -- why would the family make a point of saying that the mother is going to be arrested, in their opinion, when they feel that she`s innocent. Why would they go out of their way to do that?
BROOKS: Well, they`re thinking that law enforcement is just focusing on the family and aren`t looking for any other suspects. But law enforcement says, no, that`s not true. Because as you know, Jane, we -- we talk about it all the time. In an investigation like this, where do you start? You start with the people closest to the missing person or the victim. You start with the family. Who, what, when, where, why, and how?
It`s very unusual circumstances, especially in this case. But they`re still working on it. They`re hoping to have some kind of a suspect, some leads, but they`re still following tips. They`re still following leads that are coming in from the public, and they need the public`s help.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right, Mike. And we understand Nancy Grace has a breaking angle on this. It involves a mystery...
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MURRAY: He said to me that the doctors allowed him to infuse it himself. He said, "I love to push it. You know, it makes me feel, this is great." He complained that he couldn`t perform.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He entered into rehearsal full of energy, full of desire to work.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You administered it more than ten times?
MURRAY: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: More than 20 times?
MURRAY: Thirty days a month, roughly -- every day. He loved that drug.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The levels of Propofol found in Mr. Jackson`s body were at levels similar to general anesthesia.
MURRAY: I took all precautions.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you observe any medical equipment?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, sir.
MURRAY: So I started immediately to perform CPR and mouth-to-mouth resuscitation. I simply went to single man resuscitation. I saw his chest rise.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I did not personally ever feel a pulse.
MURRAY: I then attempted to call 911 because he wanted to know what it was about. I have a patient that needs help.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was, "Call me right away. Call me right away, thank you."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HLN HOST: The evidence so overwhelming, it sent one fan running from the courtroom.
Hello, everyone. Jane Velez-Mitchell back with you, live, in Los Angeles. The Michael Jackson death trial had its most heated day yet, emotions running wild. The most devastating image released was the king of pop`s own autopsy photo, which showed his gaunt, cold, naked body laid out like, well, like an autopsy photo.
I`m going to show just part of it, and for a very, very short period of time. This is evidence in court, put up in open court, so we`re going to show it to you for only a couple of seconds. Again, a warning, this is Michael Jackson`s arm with tiles beside his body reading August 25th, 2009.
Now, the doctor, who was doing the autopsy claims the date, well, it certainly was wrong. Michael Jackson died June 25th, 2009, not August. That`s kind of a disturbing sign of sloppy work, if you ask me.
Not only that, we also heard the raw, pained reactions from Michael Jackson`s own children, who were there as they learned their father died.
Listen to this police interview of the defendant, Dr. Conrad Murray, telling cops about it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MURRAY: They cried and cried and cried. The daughter uttered a lot of words of unhappiness and she didn`t want to live without her dad and she didn`t want to be an orphan. Real sad. Real sad. She`s like my daughter. And I told her, you know, we will take care of her. (INAUDIBLE) said that he would take care of her also.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Well, guess what? Now we`re hearing that the 8 was really a 6. So apparently they didn`t get it wrong, it just looked wrong, because it looks like an 8. There you go. Just one of the many confusions of this trial.
Were you disturbed by today`s testimony? Give me a call, 1-877-JVM- SAYS.
Straight out to Rabbi Shmuley Boteach, author of "Ten Conversations You Need to Have With Yourself"; Rabbi, what an emotional day as these autopsy photos were revealed. Your reaction as someone who knew Michael Jackson well?
RABBI SHMULEY BOTEACH, FORMER SPIRITUAL ADVISOR OF MICHAEL JACKSON: Well, you know, Jane, when I was close to Michael, I was consciously aware of the fact that a somewhat naive superstar had placed his life in my care. And I had to bend over backward to do the right thing by him, restore his credibility, make sure that he wasn`t around children so there can`t be any wrong allegations. Get the media to understand him better. Get him to lead a healthier life.
What I don`t understand in the last conversation -- incredible conversation you had with Dr. Klein`s attorney and hearing Conrad Murray`s testimony is Michael put his life in their hands. I mean why was he getting anymore plastic surgery? We all know he had too much. Why was he being put to sleep with hospital-grade anesthetics? You know, so many of these doctors have to explain things to us.
My reaction is that there are protests all over the country now against greedy bankers. The doctors are now on trial. We`re seeing more and more doctors who are creating a pill-popping society, where every time your kid is a little bit hyperactive, you shove him on Ritalin, and if you`re a little bit depressed they shove you on an antidepressant.
And if you`re a superstar with a lot of money and you can`t sleep, instead of telling you, the superstar, you need psychological evaluation, it`s not normal to never sleep. It`s not normal to be this down and this depressed, to be addicted to sedatives and to painkillers, you need psychiatric evaluation. Instead, they fed him this poison that killed him.
It`s like what I said the entire time, Jane --
(CROSSTALK)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And I agree with you, Rabbi. Rabbi, I actually wrote about this in my book, "Addict Nation: An Intervention for America", where I describe America as an addicto-genic (ph) culture where we encourage self-medication.
Check this out. It`s just a snippet from a fascinating documentary called "Gone Too Soon".
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everyone has a piece of the puzzle.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Conrad Robert Murray.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`ve heard of this thing that takes you to the valley of death and then brings you back.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If we finally put them all together --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Were you ever accused of having sexually molested Bret Barnes?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Don`t answer that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What would we see in the big picture?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And with me tonight, filmmaker, behind this remarkable project, Ian Halperin. Ian, you`ve been hearing the testimony. We heard Dr. Conrad Murray talk to cops on audiotape, rationalizing and justifying his behavior. What say you?
IAN HALPERIN, AUTHOR, "UNMASKED": Well, a lot of bombshells, Jane, were dropped in the courtroom today. But, again, we`ve got to go to the scientific evidence. And the defense is really going to get into the medical examiner, and have already debunked a bit of the theory as far as the type of medication and the amount of medications that were put into Michael Jackson`s body.
But I`ve got to ask the Rabbi Shmuley one question. When he talks about them, who are they? Rabbi Shmuley knew MJ better than just about anyone. And why are they scapegoating Murray? Why aren`t doctors -- more doctors charged? I know for a fact that at least 20 doctors enabled Michael Jackson with drugs. Why aren`t they standing trial too?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Quick answer, Rabbi. We`ve got a doctor on call here, so quick answer.
BOTEACH: Well, it`s not only the doctors, and he`s absolutely right. But it`s also AEG. I mean, here you have a company that was putting on 50 concerts. Was Michael ready for it? You have the director of the concerts writing to the chairman of the company, "Michael`s not ready for this. I`m massaging his feet, he`s freezing cold. He needs psychiatric evaluation.
Everyone is sounding these alarms, but profit, money, and -- it`s astonishing to me that only one person is being charged. That doesn`t mean that he`s being scapegoated. Conrad Murray ultimately gave him this Propofol under settings that should never have been allowed. And he seems kind of guilty. I don`t want to make that conclusion because, of course, he has the presumption of innocence.
(CROSSTALK)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Can I say one thing in defense of AEG? I`d like to say something in the defense of AEG. First of all, that meeting was just a couple of days before Michael Jackson died. We`re going to talk about it in a second.
But also, Conrad Murray never revealed to AEG that he was giving him Propofol. Of course he didn`t, because they would have been horrified and they would have backed off. Nobody was going to underwrite something like that. So AEG did not know.
BOTEACH: Jane, anyone who was in Michael`s vicinity, for years, for years knew that his life was in steep decline. This is a fallacy that people did not know how poorly his life was being conducted.
HALPERIN: But Rabbi --
BOTEACH: Michael was --
HALPERIN: Rabbi, you were good friends with him. If you could relive it, you tried to get him off the drugs -- you and Elizabeth Taylor were the only two people. In hindsight, if you could have done things differently, what would you have done differently to save his life?
(CROSSTALK)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Look, should`ve, could`ve, would`ve, everybody -- everybody, everybody would like to say that they could have done something. I don`t know that you can force another adult to live a life that you want them to live, unless they want to change.
I want to bring in Dr. Natalie Strand, who is an anesthesiologist, and we have some equipment here. And we want to just show you what we`ve got, so that we can try to understand this case. Can you hold this up?
DR. NATALIE STRAND, ANESTHESIOLOGIST: Sure.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: This is a saline bag, ok? This is what I don`t understand. This is the Propofol. According to the prosecution, which, of course, they forgot to take a picture of, the coroner --
STRAND: Would have been helpful.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: This was sliced open and this Propofol was inside here, as a makeshift drip. Ok? And the question is, did Dr. Conrad Murray give him the Propofol that killed him, or did he somehow, with one of these ports that was connected to his leg or perhaps drinking it or, in some way, give himself the fatal dose? So you were telling me, this is not ever supposed to be in a saline bag.
STRAND: It absolutely not. I mean, when most people run a Propofol infusion in a hospital setting, they`ll connect an attachment that runs through one of these side ports, so it will be a separate access port that runs it. If you cut open the bag and put the bottle inside, you`re sacrificing sterility. The outside of the bottle is not sterile. So then you`re giving an intravenous substance that isn`t sterile.
In addition, I don`t know -- I mean if that`s really what he was doing that just kind of illustrates his extreme lack of knowledge in this area. I have never seen anybody do it that way. I don`t know how he would have jerry-rigged a system to even work like that.
So the idea of cutting open the IV bag and having a bottle in there of Propofol doesn`t make any sense at all to me. I`ve never seen anybody do it that way.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: So you`re saying that that would be almost like something you would do if you were on an episode of "Survivor" and you were camping and this was something you were doing out in the wild and you are trying to jerry-rig a system like this.
STRAND: It`s a very creative solution.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, it`s a very creative solution. And what does it tell you as a doctor?
STRAND: It tells me what I already know. That his judgment is really poor, that he didn`t know what he was doing, that he was practicing medicine in an area that he wasn`t trained in, that he wasn`t comfortable in, that he didn`t have the appropriate skills to do. So it further just supports everything that we`ve already seen about Dr. Murray.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: But I will say this, with so many different ports and possibilities, it`s going to be hard for the jury to narrow it down to something that happened beyond a reasonable doubt.
There is a lot of complexity here, and in complexity, there can be reasonable doubt. And that is, I think, what the prosecution has to worry about. This is complicated stuff and they`ve got to boil it down to people terms.
Up next, an ISSUES exclusive: a guy who was there hours before Michael died.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JERMAINE JACKSON, BROTHER OF MICHAEL JACKSON: The legendary king of pop, Michael Jackson, passed away on Thursday, June 25th.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did anybody witness what happened?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, just the doctor, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Michael was doing three or four times the work as any of us.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He had an episode last night. I think you need to get a blood test on him. We got to see what he`s doing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s the greatest entertainer in the world.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You can`t deal with a guy like Michael, who`s this big a star, when he becomes so powerful, these kind of folks will not listen to advice. They`re going to do it their way and it will kill them if you`re not careful.
MURRAY: He complained that he couldn`t perform. He had to cancel rehearsals again, put the show behind, and, you know, not satisfy his fans.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tonight, my exclusive guest was with Michael Jackson onstage just hours before his death. Watch this rehearsal footage of the king of pop in his element, shortly before he died.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(MICHAEL JACKSON REHEARSAL FOR "THIS IS IT")
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Ok. Mo Pleasure, you played keyboard for Michael Jackson. You were there with him hours before he died -- his final rehearsal. Describe, in your words, what Michael Jackson was like the last time you saw him.
MO PLEASURE, PLAYED KEYBOARD FOR MICHAEL JACKSON TOUR: You know, Jane, he was animated. We were all really looking forward to a great concert tour at the O2 in London. He was laughing, he was in good spirits. We were coming down to the final production, one of the final production rehearsals.
So many things had to go right, so many of the technical things had to go right, the music, the dance, and it was all kind of -- we all knew that we had something really special. And I really believe that Michael did too. So I would have to say he was very much looking forward to doing the concert tour.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: So he didn`t seem sick to you? Because I`m sure you know that the choreographer, Kenny Ortega, the director of "This Is It", the first witness of the trial, describes Michael`s final days, and there`s some disturbing testimony. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KENNY ORTEGA, CHOREOGRAPHER FOR "THIS IS IT" CONCERT TOUR": He was chilled and he appeared lost.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What do you mean by that?
ORTEGA: Just lost and a little incoherent. I did feel, though, that he was not well at all.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you think he was well enough to rehearse?
ORTEGA: No.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: So, Kenny Ortega saying Friday, June 19th, Michael`s incoherent, chilled, not good enough to rehearse. The next day, there`s an emergency meeting with Kenny Ortega, Michael Jackson`s manager, one of the concert promoters, and Dr. Conrad Murray, where Dr. Murray assures him everything is fine.
Then Tuesday, the 23rd, Michael`s next rehearsal. He`s full of energy. Ditto for Wednesday, June 24th, that was his final rehearsal. And he dies Thursday, June 25th.
So let me take you back, Morris, to Friday, June 19th. Did you see Michael walk in and seem chilled or in any way just not there? He did not rehearse. He watched the rehearsals.
PLEASURE: Ok, well, I`ll say this. First of all, Kenny Ortega is somebody that`s a producer of the show, so he`s going to be spending a lot of time with Michael that we, as musicians, wouldn`t necessarily spend with him. By the time he got to rehearsal with us, he had already been through most times a full dance rehearsal, and we`re talking about a 50-year-old man.
And then coming to us, you know, we either had like a full music rehearsal or a full production rehearsal. And I can`t even tell you how many aspects of that have to go right in order for a show like this to come off.
And he was definitely, you know, I`m glad we have "This Is It" now through this but he was definitely, you know, ready for rehearsal. He was hitting his marks. For everything I got, we were actually ahead of schedule in terms of the show. We would have been definitely ready to do a full show at the O2 in London, there`s no question about it.
What you`re seeing when we`re doing "This Is It" is a production that`s 85, 90 percent of full power, you know, because we can`t burn ourselves out. Michael has to sing, dance, hit his marks, and all that. So what is now in the movie you`re looking at, you know, you make the decision yourself. I say that we were ready and I think that Michael was ready too.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: But did you see him on the 19th not rehearse? Was there any buzz about, oh, we`re supposed to do a rehearsal, he`s not there. Did you get any sense of that or was it kept completely under wraps?
PLEASURE: You know, Jane, you`ve got to understand in a production like this things change all the time. It could be just something having to do with lighting cues. Lighting needs another three or four hours to deal with something so we`re moving rehearsal from 1:00 to 4:00, 5:00. That`s the kind of directions we were getting. As far as when Michael actually showed up, he was ready to rehearse.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. We are so delighted that you`re joining us tonight here on ISSUES exclusively and telling us what you saw. And we`re going to have more of your analysis in just a moment.
Stay right there.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Take a look at this. This is (INAUDIBLE). Instead of "Thriller", it says Conrad Murray "Killer". It should say "alleged killer" there. You put a lot of work into this why?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, Jane, although this is a very serious case, I believe -- I just wanted to add a little bit comic relief. I just believe laughter is the best medicine, not Propofol.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: So you have so many people outside supporting Michael Jackson. There`s also Dr. Conrad Murray supporters and Dr. Murray himself is claiming that not only was the Propofol Michael Jackson`s idea, but he claims other doctors would let Michael inject himself. Let`s listen to Dr. Conrad Murray, the defendant.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MURRAY: He had said to me that the doctors allowed him to infuse it himself. And he asked me why won`t you let me push it. I love to push it. It makes me feel great.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Mo, you`ve been in the music world and the world of show business for a long time. Sometimes people compartmentalize their lives. What`s so astounding is you hear these stories of Michael Jackson wanting to inject himself with Propofol, begging to get Propofol but we talk to people like you and you say he`s on target, he`s got his music, he`s sharp, he`s healthy, how do you reconcile those two?
PLEASURE: Well, you know, the only thing I can say is I`m in a very demanding business, you know. And we have to -- we have to perform and we have to like, you know, be on our mark and be our very best.
Michael Jackson is to me one of the greatest performers of our time. I didn`t come away with any different feeling after having worked with him. So maybe he`s just that good to be able to, you know, really compartmentalize his life. I can`t really say. I know about the part on the stage. You know, he was amazing every day.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And he was joking. What was his mood?
PLEASURE: I completely remember him laughing. I remember, you know, at this point all the hard work had really, really been done. There were a few more gags, as we call them, a couple of technical things we had to get through. The music was pretty much done. We had decided the set list, the right keys for everything. I mean it`s just massive the amount of work.
You know, everybody in the production had this feeling like, ok, we`ve got x amount of days to go and we`re ready to hit.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: What was your reaction when you learned that Michael Jackson had died?
PLEASURE: You know, Jane, it`s like so many things. First of all, complete shock. I said to myself, I`m not going to even believe it until I show up at rehearsal and see what`s going on. As soon as I pulled up, I understood.
But, you know, Michael Jackson is the kind of person who, first of all, I`ve been hearing his music for however, 30, 40 years, since I was a kid. And then when you actually meet the person, you realize what a really great person he is. It hits you like you`ve lost somebody that you know well and that, you know, you`ve lost way too soon, you know.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And your reaction to all the personal details that are being revealed in this case, his autopsy photo, talk of his urine and all of these very personal things?
You know, truthfully, I don`t think they all need to be on television. But, you know, I haven`t really been following. You know, I work pretty hard and I don`t really watch a lot of television.
(CROSSTALK)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: You`re busy making music and good music.
PLEASURE: Yes.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And we want to thank you so much for coming on.
PLEASURE: Thank you, Jane.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: We`re showing this trial. This is the decision of the prosecution.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: The big debate here is whether Dr. Conrad Murray kind of danced through an interview with the cops. He certainly was a spin doctor painting himself as a compassionate, caring, patient-precise doctor who really was very, very reluctant about giving Michael Jackson his milk, Propofol, but only at Michael Jackson`s request.
However, we`ve come up with a list of inconsistencies and some of them are very technical and medical, but some of them, well, they`re just common sense.
For example, he tells the cops, oh, I couldn`t call 911 right away because there`s no phones in the house. Michael Jackson changes his number all the time. Hello, Dr. Conrad Murray had two cell phones, you were calling your girl friends. You were making all sorts of phone calls. All right, so right there, if I`m a juror, that tells me, hmm, he`s not leveling.
Tomorrow on ISSUES another big exclusive. We will talk to Mark Lester, the long-time friend of Michael Jackson.
END
