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Joy Behar Page
Michael Jackson Death Trial; Children of Addiction; Interview With Carre Otis
Aired October 11, 2011 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: Coming up on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, jurors heard the rest of Conrad Murray`s damning police interview following the death of Michael Jackson. With evidence piling up against Murray, Joy wants to know what the next move is for the defense.
Then did Michael Jackson`s kids witness their father`s drug use? Joy talks to Mackenzie Phillips, whose dad was a drug user, about the impact that has on a child`s development.
Plus Carre Otis went from teen runaway to supermodel to a failed Hollywood marriage, all while struggling with drugs and an eating disorder. She`ll tell Joy about her rollercoaster journey.
That and more starting right now.
JOY BEHAR, HOST: Shocking and sad testimony today in the Conrad Murray trial, prosecutors played the tape of a police interview with Dr. Murray, two days after Michael Jackson`s death. Listen to Murray`s describing how Jackson`s then 11-year-old daughter reacted to hearing her father was dead. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. CONRAD MURRAY, ON TRIAL FOR MICHAEL JACKSON`S DEATH: She asked me "Dr. Murray, you said you save a lot of patients. You know, you save people with heart attacks, and you couldn`t save my dad." I said, "I tried my best." And she said, "I know that, Dr. Murray. At least I know, I know you tried your best. I know you tried your best but I`m really sad. You know, I will wake up in the morning and I won`t be able to see my daddy."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Here with the latest from the trial is Ryan Smith, host of "In Session" on TruTV. Ryan, to listen to that is kind of sad and heartbreaking. These were very emotional details played out in court today, right? Tell me about it.
RYAN SMITH, HOST, "IN SESSION": It was just -- it was heartbreaking to hear about the children and their response. And again, these are Dr. Murray`s words. This is what he said he saw at the hospital and what he heard. He said that Paris was like a daughter to him and that she talked about where was she going to go? She didn`t want to be an orphan and he even said that he would take care of her. Even Michael Jackson`s manager said something similar.
But this was one of those days where you just heard the out-pouring of emotion coming from these tapes. He described Katherine Jackson in that courtroom, I`m sorry, after Michael Jackson died and her response and not even wanting to share the news with her because she had a heart condition, at which time, Joy, she in the courtroom shook her head -- Katherine was right there in that courtroom -- shook her head no.
You know some of the things he was saying on these tapes, very emotional describing the scene. But again, you`re taking it from Dr. Conrad Murray, maybe the Jackson family doesn`t feel that`s the full picture.
BEHAR: Also on the recording, he points fingers at other doctors. Tell me about that a little bit.
SMITH: Well, this has been a theme in these recordings. Yesterday -- or when we heard the recordings first on Friday, he pointed the finger at an anesthesiologist, David Adams to say that he used to provide Michael Jackson with Propofol to go to sleep. Adams` attorney has said that that is not true and today, it was more about Dr. Arnold Klein --
BEHAR: Yes.
SMITH: This was the doctor that Murray said every time Michael Jackson came from this doctor, he would be at his worst. He would have his worst days after he saw Dr. Klein. The defense, they thought was going to try to offer a theory that he got Michael Jackson addicted to Demerol. Dr. Klein has said that that is not true and that just treated Michael Jackson for dermatology-type situations.
But you know, this was one thing where he was trying to throw him under the bus a little and say that Dr. Klein might have harmed Michael Jackson.
BEHAR: Do you believe him, Ryan? Do you believe Murray?
SMITH: At some points it seems plausible, Joy. But in at a lot of points, it seems like he`s putting his best foot forward.
And just -- look at it this way, two days after Michael Jackson dies, the police call you and they said come on down to the police station. You`re going to give a story that you think paints yourself in the most favorable light.
BEHAR: Of course.
SMITH: So I think -- my problem with this is -- yes, Joy, my problem with this is the inconsistencies. I mean there`s little things. Such as he says he`s looking at his watch at one point. The doctors at the hospital said he didn`t have a watch.
Then there are the big things. The treatment he says he gave him. He left out the phone calls with police. He left out the kinds of drugs he gave. That makes me not believe him.
BEHAR: Well, ok. Finally the prosecution showed an autopsy photo of the dead Michael Jackson. Why show that picture? What`s the point?
SMITH: Yes, you know, it`s debatable. The prosecution, many might say, this is to show that Michael Jackson, in a sense -- even though the ME said he was healthy, that Michael Jackson in these pictures, he`s gaunt, he looks sickly, maybe it`s to show that this was Dr. Murray`s treatment of him.
But Joy, I have to say maybe you make the point of Michael Jackson`s condition, you make the point that this was a homicide. But you can do all that without showing a picture, right.
BEHAR: Yes.
SMITH: So I think what the ME might have been trying to show here is this was Michael Jackson`s condition. It`s the visual picture that stays with jurors. And sometimes prosecutors will say, that makes jurors think somebody`s got to be held accountable here.
So maybe that`s part of it but then do you damage Michael Jackson`s legacy by showing him in this light after his death?
BEHAR: Well, that is the discussion and the issue that keeps going on. How damaging is this whole thing to Michael`s legacy. Thanks very much Ryan.
SMITH: Sure thing.
BEHAR: Ok. Now, I want to bring in my panel: Robin Sax, former Los Angeles prosecutor and Dr. Cathleen London, assistant professor at New York Presbyterian Hospital.
Robin, on the recording, Murray describes how Jackson`s kids were crying. Why did prosecutors play this part of the recording?
ROBIN SAX, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Listen, prosecutors had to bring out this tape because, even if it was self-serving to the defendant, we all know that the defense would have brought it out themselves. So it`s better to do the pre-emptive strike think, bring it out themselves and then be able to use the tape to harp on all of the inconsistencies that don`t jive with the evidence or other people`s testimony.
BEHAR: Could it sway the jury, do you think?
Sax: It certainly could sway the jury and many people are saying that the tape is more helpful to the defense, but just as Ryan just pointed out -- this was a tape that was made two hours -- excuse me -- two days after Michael Jackson died. It was with his attorney, plenty of time to be coached.
The interesting part is it was virtually no questions. As a matter of fact, playing that could even -- excuse me, Chernoff actually asked about that on cross-examination today and it is an uninterrupted monologue which seems to say that Conrad Murray knew exactly what to answer. He mentioned the 911, he mentioned the CPR, he mentioned the monitoring; the inconsistencies, the phone records, the things that are omitted is much more powerful to prosecution than what was actually said.
BEHAR: Right. You know Doctor, he sounds very caring, Murray, in this whole thing. You know, when he`s talking, explaining how he handled the Jackson family and everything.
Does that make him sympathetic and can that help him at all, the way he describes it?
DR. CATHLEEN LONDON, NEW YORK PRESBYTERIAN HOSPITAL: Caring doesn`t mean you`re competent. I mean he`s so wildly incompetent.
Let`s start with the -- on the recording he says that the reason he did one-handed CPR was that he couldn`t get him to the floor. Then we hear the coroner say that he weighed 136 pounds. Joy, that`s what I weigh, I think that I could have gotten him on to the ground. He`s not a big person.
BEHAR: And Dr. Murray is a big guy, he`s 6`4. I didn`t realize how tall he was.
LONDON: Right. And he couldn`t lift someone my size.
BEHAR: That`s baloney. That`s baloney, yes.
LONDON: So that`s nice that he`s caring. So is my dog. It doesn`t mean I want her to take care of me, you know.
BEHAR: Yes.
LONDON: I find that to be disingenuous at best.
BEHAR: Does it help him at all that he`s incompetent? I`m just wondering. Can that help him?
LONDON: I`m sure that there`s going to be jurors who want to sympathize. But this guy did so many things that I find so disturbing, from on the tape he talks about giving not one, not two, but three different sedatives, all within the same class. You don`t do that, you know, when you pick -- this is a class of benzodiazepine. So he gave him Valium, Ativan, Versed -- three different ones. That`s outrageous.
BEHAR: What`s the point of that?
LONDON: Exactly. You know --
BEHAR: Why not give him three of the same?
LONDON: That`s what you should do. You increase your dose. You get much more unpredictable effects when you`re doing that.
So that tells me that this guy is so grossly negligent, so grossly incompetent and then on top of that, Propofol. And I`m supposed to believe that he`s been giving Propofol nightly for two months straight and then suddenly he doesn`t and only gives him this little tiny homeopathic dose?
BEHAR: Ok.
All right. Let`s listen to another part of Murray`s police interview where he points fingers at Dr. Klein, Jackson`s dermatologist. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MURRAY: Well, I am told that Dr. Klein is a -- is maybe a dermatologist. I don`t know. But his production team had said to me recently that his worst days on the set is when he had gone to Dr. Klein`s office which is about three times a week. And when he came back, he was basically wasted and required at least 24 hours for recovery.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Could Demerol make you so wasted?
LONDON: Absolutely. But it wasn`t found in his system.
BEHAR: It wasn`t in the autopsy?
LONDON: Right. In the toxicology. So, it`s kind of true, true and unrelated.
BEHAR: Yes, but doesn`t it create some kind of reasonable doubt that maybe -- no, it does not.
LONDON: It wasn`t in the toxicology report. It has a long half-life. It wasn`t --
BEHAR: They`re saying there was like a residual effect from it of some kind. No?
LONDON: No. No.
BEHAR: The pathologist testified today, he didn`t think Jackson could have given himself the Propofol. Do you agree with that?
LONDON: Yes, I mean again, he`s nightly gotten it. So Murray`s testimony that he only gave him 25 milligrams -- first of all, that wouldn`t have put him out, especially if he had been giving it every night for two months. That`s not real plausible.
Yes. The fact that this IV was in his foot because there was nothing left from 60 days of IVs, or a spot --
BEHAR: Right.
LONDON: So that -- there he is. He`s been asleep, he -- in two minutes, if we believe Murray`s testimony -- wakes up, managed to give himself a dose, fall back to sleep and stop breathing -- no.
BEHAR: Not going to happen?
LONDON: No.
BEHAR: Robin, I mean it seems to me that this whole case -- I`ve been listening to it -- hangs on the fact that he could not give himself the Propofol. The guy gives him the Propofol, he dies. That`s the case. Isn`t that a huge blow to the defense, Robin? I mean what else is left?
SAX: Well, right now, what we see is, we see the classic argument that happened in O.J. playing all over for us right again. It`s going to be a garbage-in, garbage-out argument.
We`re blaming the investigation, if you can`t trust the investigation, anything that flows from the investigation therefore enough to rise to the level of reasonable doubt. Blaming other doctors we see. We have Arnie Klein, some other dude did it. Another classic defense move.
And then the third thing that we`re seeing is blaming the victim. And I think it`s really funny that I just heard with your interview with Dr. London, she`s even calling the tape, the testimony of Dr. Murray. That wasn`t his testimony. That was a tape and people are going to count that as testimony, even your guest sitting here on our show.
BEHAR: Any response to that?
LONDON: They played it as what he`s saying, as what he said he did, you know. That`s all we have to go on.
(CROSSTALK)
SAX: -- and he`s not being subject to cross-examination therefore he is not testifying. That`s critical because I don`t think he could handle cross-examination. And that tape is being used as in lieu of testifying but he is not testifying.
BEHAR: Ok. Thank you guys very much. More on the Conrad Murray trial in just a minute. Thanks.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Coming up next, how will Michael Jackson`s drug dependency impact his children. Joy talks with Mackenzie Phillips about her father`s addiction and how it almost destroyed her.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Although Michael Jackson died of a drug overdose in 2009, the damage from his drug addiction didn`t end there. Addiction is a family illness and time will tell what effect all of this will have on Michael`s children.
I`m joined by actress Mackenzie Phillips and child psychiatrist Dr. Charles Sophy. Welcome to the show. Hello Mackenzie, how are you?
MACKENZIE PHILLIPS, ACTRESS: Hey Joy.
DR. CHARLES SOPHY, CHILD PSYCHIATRIST: Thank you.
BEHAR: Nice to see you.
PHILLIPS: Great, how are you?
BEHAR: Ok.
PHILLIPS: Same here.
BEHAR: Now, Mackenzie, what was it like for you to grow up around drugs? I know you did.
PHILLIPS: It`s interesting because it`s all I knew, really. You kind of think, well then this is just what happens. This is what people do. And then as you get older and you get a little kind of clue once you go out of your home and you think, well, you know what, not everyone is learning how to roll joints for their parents at 10 years old.
But at the same time, it didn`t really disturb me because it was what I knew, it was what I grew up around.
BEHAR: Did anybody try to rescue you? Was there anybody there? Sometimes they say my aunt or grandma was around and that saved me. Was there anyone?
PHILLIPS: Well, there were efforts to intervene or to come and take me out. I lived with my mother and I went to my father`s house on the weekends. So, you know, I saw a lot of things. The only people that were there on the weekends were my dad and his friends and whoever he was married to at the time when I was a little kid.
BEHAR: And they were all doing drugs?
PHILLIPS: They were. Absolutely, they were. I saw a lot of strange druggy behavior when I was little and ended up doing the same thing when I was old enough to make those decisions for myself.
BEHAR: Dr. Sophy, what effect does this sort of thing have on a child, particularly she just said that she felt -- basically was unprotected. Nobody came to her rescue and she`s living in this environment where she has to roll joints for her father. What effect does that have on a kid?
SOPHY: Right. I mean it has a very negative effect. As you see, whatever is role model for a child, they`re going to grow up to do the same kind of behavior. They don`t see that as out of norm because it`s what they`re grown up with.
But when they go to their buddy`s house, they see wow, like Mackenzie said, not everybody is doing that. Not everybody is rolling a joint for breakfast. So it has a bad long term effect for a child to be able to function in a society that doesn`t accept that kind of behavior.
BEHAR: Right. Now, Mackenzie, they say that children adopt a parental role in these situations. Was that the case with you? How did it make you feel to have to be the grown up, sort of?
PHILLIPS: I mean that occurred much later for me where I had to sort of help these people get ready to go on stage and wash people`s hair. And I was a teenager trying to prepare other adults to go out and perform and do what they had to do.
It`s kind of a helpless feeling, like wait a minute. Isn`t someone supposed to be making me dinner?
I have to say, Dr. Sophy, my son is 24. My son, Shane is 24 and he`s not an addict.
BEHAR: That`s great.
SOPHY: That`s great but --
PHILLIPS: It`s a great thing.
SOPHY: A lot of that -- yes -- a lot of that comes if you have good solid people that can off shoot what`s going on in your life. If there`s another sober parent, there`s a relative, they`re in treatment of some sort than that addicted and drug addict parent is not affecting them solely.
BEHAR: Let me ask you this, Doctor. Early in the Conrad Murray trial, there was testimony that Jackson`s children knew there was something odd going on. For example, he had them carrying oxygen tanks up and down the stairs to his bedroom. Just one example of that.
What do you think they thought was going on when they were doing that? They were young.
SOPHY: Well, you know, at the end of the day, every child loves their parent and they`re going to do whatever they need to do and what they`re told to do, even if they have that innate sense that there`s something not right about all of this. As they learn and grow, they will understand it and more feelings are going to come up.
But at the end of the day, nobody was protecting them as we said earlier. And they were put into these risky positions and doing things that really children should not be doing and a parent should be taking care of a child not the other way around.
BEHAR: Right. So I mean it`s just sort of a tragic thing to even just picture them doing this kind of thing, you know.
SOPHY: It is. It really is.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: How did the early years of living with an addictive parent impact a child`s later life? What do you think is going to happen to these kids?
SOPHY: Well, at the end of the day, again, a child needs some really clear structure, some love and some security. They need physical and emotional security. If a parent is not sober and they can`t think properly, their judgment is not intact. They cannot keep their children safe physically or emotionally.
Those are the issues a child has to fight battling based on what has happened to them because their parents are either absent or they`re standing there but they`re shells of themselves. Children are always at risk when they have a parent who is an addict.
BEHAR: Ok. All right. We`ll continue --
PHILLIPS: We need to also --
BEHAR: Hold on a second. Hold that thought Mackenzie.
PHILLIPS: Of course.
BEHAR: We`ll continue this discussion when we return.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Still to come, supermodel Carre Otis comes clean about her tumultuous relationship with Mickey Rourke and how their marriage almost killed her.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with child psychiatrist Dr. Charles Sophy and actress Mackenzie Phillips. We`re talking about how a parent`s drug use affects their children.
You know, I`m wondering Mackenzie, it must have lowered your self- esteem, I`m sure amongst other issues that you`ve been dealing with your whole life -- I kind of know you now. It must have really just injured your image of yourself. Tell me about that.
PHILLIPS: Well, you know, it was such a strange way to grow up because I did "American Graffiti" when I was 12 years old. And so here I was, you know, sort of caring for adults and then I was famous myself and so -- and dealing with low self-esteem and then being told how great you are by the public and feeling like you really aren`t worth much at all and really trying to battle your way, you know, into adolescence with all these different things coming at you all the time. It was very difficult, very challenging.
And I think that Michael Jackson`s children are probably going to have a much better shot being raised by someone like Katherine because she`s got the resources to bring in the right types of people. She has them in a real normal school, where they leave the house to go to school every day. They`re not wearing veils over their faces anymore. We know who they are.
BEHAR: Yes. That`s true. But Dr. Sophy, they do have the scars of the previous years that they were exposed to this type of environment.
SOPHY: Of course. Absolutely.
BEHAR: How do they deal with that?
SOPHY: Absolutely.
BEHAR: What should Katherine be doing in addition to sending them to the best schools, et cetera?
SOPHY: I think the best thing that Katherine or anybody, any parent in this position could do, grandparent or caregiver for a child who had been the product of an environment of addiction from a parent needs to be able to not minimize the effects of that absentee parenting. The ability to be able to get them into treatment, to be able to look at some of the issues of abandonment, self-esteem, self-worth and self-respect because those are the things that are sent -- the messages that are sent to a child when their parenting is intact.
So when you don`t have intact parenting you risk all of that for a child. So getting them help is the key.
BEHAR: So getting them into therapy. I wonder if that`s part of their plan. Many people don`t believe in therapy.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Many people, Dr. Sophy, do not believe in the talking cure, believe me, they don`t.
SOPHY: I know. I understand.
But see -- you know what Joy; the issue isn`t just talking. The issue is in that therapeutic alliance and relationship, you`re being re-parented for the things that you didn`t get. You`re learning to trust an individual. You`re learning to rely on an individual. You`re learning to have the ability to say, no and I disagree. So there`s a lot that comes out of that talking.
BEHAR: Mackenzie, before I go, you had a point you were about to make before the break, do you remember what it was?
PHILLIPS: Well, the point I was going to make was that the kids are with Katherine. And I think that`s a much more stable environment. And I think that that is going to give them a great shot.
SOPHY: Right.
BEHAR: Was there anything else that -- just curious, was there anything your father insisted that you to do besides roll joints for him? What else did you have to do? Just curious?
PHILLIPS: It wasn`t what I had to do. It`s what wasn`t expected of me. It wasn`t expected of me to have a curfew.
It wasn`t expected of me, you know, when I was told the house rules when I moved into my dad`s house at 12 years old. He said you know what, the rule is there are no rules. If you come home after being out at night never come home in the clothes you left in because a lady never wears evening clothing during the day. That`s the type of thing that I was expected to do which is there`s no expectation there. It`s just too much for a child.
BEHAR: Dr. Sophy, she`s describing no boundaries, I think, is what you would say, right?
SOPHY: Absolutely.
BEHAR: Which is never good for a kid.
SOPHY: Right. No. Every kid needs a parent.
BEHAR: Ok. Thank you, guys, very much. We`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: In the back in the old days, the 1990s, supermodel Carre Otis was the face of Guess Jeans and Calvin Klein ads. But her battles with drugs, alcohol, anorexia and Mickey Rourke took her from the covers of magazines to the pages of tabloids. Now she`s gotten her life back on track and she has written a memoir about it all, "Beauty Disrupted."
So here with me to talk about it all is the lovely Ms. Carre Otis.
So, Carre, thank you for doing this. Lovely to have you here.
CARRE OTIS, MODEL: Thank you for having me.
BEHAR: I mean, you have been through hell, and you look so good now.
OTIS: Thank you.
BEHAR: So you`ve come out on the other side, so it`s all in the past now, but I think it would be instructional for people to hear what happened to you. I mean, when you were 12, you started drinking when you were 12 years old.
So how does that happen?
OTIS: How and why?
BEHAR: Yes.
OTIS: How and why? I think an early diagnosis of dyslexia put me at a disadvantage. It was during a time where dyslexia -- people didn`t know so much about dyslexia, you were called slow and stupid. You know, and that`s a pretty big blow for a kid. I was held back in third grade. And it was a just a time where I think dysfunction was rampant in the `70s, in the United States. My parents didn`t have the tools and the resources that I have today as a mom.
BEHAR: And wasn`t your father was an alcoholic?
OTIS: My father has been in recovery for so many years. He was active at that time. And it was a hard time for my entire family.
BEHAR: And in the book, you talk about a sexual assault. How old were you when that happened?
OTIS: I was not yet 11. I was really young. And it was a really challenging situation, because it was the popular guy, and it was an assault. It was a rape.
BEHAR: It was a rape. Was he much older than you?
OTIS: Yes. He was several grades older. And he was the popular guy. And I think like so many situations, so many young girls, sexual assault happens and they don`t discuss it, they don`t speak about it, and it`s just shrouded in shame and you move through your life not dealing with these core issues that you have to deal with to have successful relationships down the line.
BEHAR: So you had two things you were ashamed of. That and the dyslexia?
OTIS: That`s right.
BEHAR: And then at 16, you ran away from home.
OTIS: I did.
BEHAR: So tell me about that period. What was that like? You ran away with an older boyfriend.
OTIS: I ran away with an older boyfriend. And I think in a way it was an attempt to have control over something that had already been taken out of my control, which was sexuality and sexual experimentation. It wasn`t safe. So to have a say in it and to be doing wild things and making those choices myself, it was a very defiant act, but it felt like I was maintaining a level of control. So it was rough, you know. I didn`t have a job. I was too young to work.
BEHAR: Where did you go?
OTIS: I moved in with this guy. I lived in Berkeley. And I got involved in modeling. And you know, the crazy story was that I got offered $20 for an evening to be in a fashion show, and the fashion show was actually at a very seedy bar in Berkeley. And it was modeling lingerie, and it was $20 I didn`t have. It was that moment where I said, maybe I could do this for a living. So it was that a-ha moment that brought me along another path that was equally, I think, a salvation to get me out of that situation, and also a really bad card for me to be given at that point.
BEHAR: So you were pretty and you were tall and thin, so somebody spotted you and said this is a job for you?
OTIS: Actually, I pursued it. I pursued an agent in San Francisco. And then really quickly went from San Francisco to New York, and New York, the circuit, New York to Paris, Paris to Milan.
BEHAR: How was that? That sounds like fun.
OTIS: It was -- it was Europe and the modeling industry in the late `80s and `90s. And it was reckless and decadent. You had a lot of adults not behaving like adults, and a lot of kids that were put in really challenging situations that they shouldn`t have been put in. And I was one of them.
BEHAR: Yes. Is that when you started abusing drugs?
OTIS: Yes. That was when I continued abusing drugs.
BEHAR: Continued.
OTIS: I found that -- and I was supported in my finding that cocaine would help me stay skinny and keep me going on all the castings.
BEHAR: Does it really make you stay skinny? Because I`ve watched people on coke in the comedy world. And they`re thin for a while and then they get fat.
OTIS: Yes. I think nothing is permanent and nothing -- I mean, it`s horrible for your body. But at that age, it worked while I was doing it.
BEHAR: It`s so expensive, too.
OTIS: Unless you have an agent giving it to you.
BEHAR: Oh, is that what was happening to you?
OTIS: That was what was happening.
BEHAR: So they were giving it to you. You didn`t even have to use your modeling money for it.
OTIS: No. That was my experience in Europe.
BEHAR: Why would they give it to you? What would they get out of it?
OTIS: I think that that was going on -- obviously, I am not alone in my experience. I don`t think every model went through what I went through, but that was my experience. And everyone was partying. And I don`t think it was just in the modeling industry. It was the decadence of that era. You look across the board, and people were using drugs, and there was a different norm than there is now.
BEHAR: What decade was that, the `90s?
OTIS: Late `80s, `90s.
BEHAR: The late `80s. Yes. A lot of people used drugs in the `80s. I remember that.
OTIS: And people were behaving in a way that I don`t think people necessarily get away with today.
BEHAR: Right.
OTIS: Right?
BEHAR: I guess. Well, when everybody`s doing it, there was more money around at that time and people were just acting out.
OTIS: Yes. I mean, for me in the modeling industry and a lot of the things that I saw was a lot of abuse, whether it was photographers towards their assistants, you know, young girls being called fat in front of their face when that was the furthest thing from the truth. And just--
BEHAR: Let`s talk about that for a minute, because that is something that models struggle with, but because -- I think because models have to be skinny and they`re in the magazines looking skinny, the rest of us out there look at the magazines and think, well, we don`t look good, we don`t look as good, we`re not skinny enough, we`re not tall enough.
OTIS: Right.
BEHAR: It`s really difficult for women, I think.
OTIS: Yes. But it`s also the modeling industry and we as people buy -- we subscribe to this image. And the reality is the modeling industry tries to, you know, depict women in general as a certain way, and most women aren`t 17 and a size 2. And most of us are whatever age, 20, 30, 40, who aren`t a size 2. So it`s an unfair representation. And that, unfortunately, continues to a certain extent. There needs to be much more diversity in how we represent women.
BEHAR: And what about the models -- I don`t know about you -- but models who are not naturally thin? What do you have to do, besides using drugs and starving yourselves, what do you do?
OTIS: I think a model who is not naturally thin works really, really hard to keep themselves employable. And, yes--
BEHAR: Didn`t Linda Evangelista give you a tip?
OTIS: She did.
BEHAR: What did she tell you?
OTIS: Way back in the day, she suggested that gin was the better drink to have because of its lower calories.
BEHAR: Really? I didn`t know that.
(LAUGHTER)
OTIS: Really?
BEHAR: There`s a good tip I can use from a model.
(CROSSTALK)
OTIS: There`s other drinks out there apparently now that would probably be in competition with that theory.
BEHAR: Right. OK. So now, let`s go to your first husband, Mickey Rourke. The talented Mickey Rourke.
OTIS: The very talented.
BEHAR: The self-destructive Mickey Rourke. You were 20. And this is how you describe your first encounter in the book. "There was energy, there was chemistry. Basically, we set the room on fire. It was love and longing and breathtaking intensity all at first sight." You sure you weren`t having a stroke?
OTIS: I could have been. I might have been. It took me a long time to recover from the stroke.
BEHAR: So it was like one of those electric moments where you just -- there`s chemistry immediately.
OTIS: It was. It was.
BEHAR: That`s dangerous stuff.
OTIS: It`s dangerous, and now I know, like warning, you know, move away quickly.
BEHAR: Step away from the Mickey.
OTIS: Right. But at that time, I was a kid. I mean, I was in my late teens, was I 19, and I didn`t know better.
BEHAR: But when you look back on it, what was the attraction, do you think, objectively?
OTIS: I knew him. We recognized -- we recognized one another. And I think because we both were really dysfunctional and came from similar disruption and upset and backgrounds. And we were both kind of -- you know, I had just done a campaign in which I was on a motorcycle, and he was kind of a bad boy and it was this, oh, hi?
BEHAR: So you were attracted to the bad boy?
OTIS: Yes. I was attracted to the fantasy. There was a great, you know.
BEHAR: Well, he was a movie star.
OTIS: And he was a movie star. And I was a kid, and it was very -- I was very impressionable.
BEHAR: So when did you realize that something was up with him, or shall we hold that for the next segment?
OTIS: We can hold that for the next--
BEHAR: And we`ll talk also about what Carre said when Mickey Rourke proposed to her when we come back. Stay there.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICKEY ROURKE, ACTOR: I`m not used to women running away from me.
OTIS: And I`m not used to men in masks biting my neck.
ROURKE: I think you have me confused with someone else. That`s not my style, Emily.
OTIS: He looked like you. Felt like you.
ROURKE: How do you know what I feel like?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: That was Carre Otis and Mickey Rourke in the 1990 film, "Wild Orchid."
What is in his cheeks? He`s got chipmunk cheeks there.
OTIS: I don`t know what`s in those cheeks. But they were different then than when I first met him.
BEHAR: And also there`s a very Marlon Brandonesque to the way he is delivering those lines.
OTIS: It`s painful to watch.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: Is it really painful?
OTIS: It is, it`s really uncomfortable.
BEHAR: But you were gorgeous, anyway, so who cares. But there were rumors that in that movie, you guys had hot sex scenes and that they were real. Were they real?
OTIS: No. But have you ever filmed a sex scene?
BEHAR: Yes. Many times. In fact, I`m doing one right now.
OTIS: Exactly. Do you know how many people are standing around? I did cover that in the book. It was unbelievably awkward to have that accusation. I mean, come on, I was 19, 20, and it was just mortifying. The whole movie and the experience was devastating.
BEHAR: But isn`t that a compliment? They think it was so real, they thought you were actually having sex.
OTIS: It`s not really a compliment.
BEHAR: It`s not?
(LAUGHTER)
OTIS: That was like the best of my acting skills, which I wasn`t an actress. You know, that was not my -- it`s not -- obviously, I didn`t pursue that career.
BEHAR: You write in the book about the element of danger. You talk about Mickey Rourke, there was kind of danger around him. Tell me about the gun in the bag incident?
OTIS: Yes, that was a bummer. There was a lot of danger. There was a lot of guns and not a lot of safety. It was a really reckless life in a lot of ways. And the gun incident was, you know, such -- just so disturbing, I think both for Mickey and for me.
BEHAR: The gun was in your bag?
OTIS: The gun was in my bag, it was Mickey`s gun. And we had come off a day on the motorcycles. I didn`t know the gun was in my bag. It was sort of a communal backpack. And I walked into the house we were staying in and threw the bag down and there was an explosion.
BEHAR: It went off.
OTIS: It went off.
BEHAR: And it hit you?
OTIS: It did hit me, it hit me in the chest.
BEHAR: In the chest?
OTIS: Yes.
BEHAR: And it sounds like it was awful. You said it entered two inches from my heart. Mickey was agitated. I could tell he had great concerns that the press would get wind of the incident. Did you feel, like, you know, gee, he cares more about the publicity surrounding this than he cares about these two bullets in my chest?
OTIS: It was one bullet.
BEHAR: One bullet.
OTIS: But the event was so surreal. At first it felt like I was the only one that really knew that I was hit. There was this pre-occupation with what had happened, where was the bullet, was Mickey OK, and me kind of having to identify, I`m not OK and can you please help me? And it was a moment, a rare moment in people`s lives, not a lot of people have this experience, where you really don`t know what is going to happen. You have blood coming out of you, you don`t know where you`re hit. You don`t know if it`s hit -- you know, you don`t know if you`re going to bleed to death. And it was unbelievably traumatic, as you can imagine. Took quite a while to get over the shock.
BEHAR: Did it make you feel lonely that no one -- you were there in this situation --
OTIS: Ultimately, within that, there was a response and the guys got me to the hospital. But it was that thing, you know, I think women in crisis deal a little bit differently than men. It was like a bunch of chickens running around. You know, not quite sure what to do.
BEHAR: Yes. And yet he proposed to you after that.
OTIS: He did. There were so many moments that you would think I would have walked the other way.
BEHAR: No bells were going off then?
OTIS: Yes. Well, they were. But I didn`t know how to say no and I didn`t know -- my norm had become very distorted and I was very isolated in the experience with him. So I didn`t have a lot of perspective. And I was young enough to not have the resources to start to question, like is this OK? Is this a healthy relationship? I just didn`t know. I was not wise that way.
BEHAR: In the book, you say he was threatening to kill himself if you didn`t say yes.
OTIS: That`s true. It was an unusual proposal. It was an unusual proposal. And again, it was that moment for me of not believing necessarily that he would or he wouldn`t. And knowing something was not right but also not knowing how to say no. Trying to do the right thing. And, you know, I think ultimately for most human beings, it`s just this want to be loved and approved of.
BEHAR: But didn`t he say he was going to stab himself like -- with a big sword?
OTIS: He is a wonderful actor. And there`s a lot of drama.
BEHAR: Talk about a drama queen, really.
OTIS: There was a lot of drama in our lives. And that was a very drama-filled moment to get a certain result.
BEHAR: You had so -- during the marriage, you had a few fights with him, physical. Did he hit you a lot?
OTIS: He hit me on several occasions.
BEHAR: Now, he disagrees, of course. We reached out to Mickey for comment.
OTIS: Of course.
BEHAR: But we didn`t hear back.
OTIS: No.
BEHAR: He previously said quote, allegations were made about domestic abuse that were absolutely not true. We were both damaged goods.
OTIS: Which is absolute -- I would love to use the world that I would love to use, but--
BEHAR: Use it. We`ll bleep it.
OTIS: It`s absolute bull [EXPLETIVE DELETED]. I mean, who -- damaged goods? No, not damaged goods. We had a lot of dysfunction, and I worked my ass off to be able to get to where I am at this moment. So if he wants to claim that about himself, that`s fine, but I`m not damaged goods.
BEHAR: Good for you. And also you claim he hit you, you didn`t hit him?
OTIS: That`s right. There was moments I was definitely one mouthy Irish girl for sure. And there was, you know, it takes two. It takes two to tango, and there was a part of me that needed to be in that relationship for as long as I did. And it took, you know, a lot of work to find the courage and the strength to say, OK, I`m done. This isn`t serving me and it wasn`t serving him either.
BEHAR: And I think things -- according to the book, you -- well, we`re going to take a break. I want to talk about how you tried to commit suicide. OK. We`ll be right back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with former supermodel Carre Otis. Things got so bad with you that you attempted suicide at one point. Tell me about that period.
OTIS: That was a -- that was a very challenging time. And I think, like so many other young people who feel that they`re boxed in, you know, that go through -- that are just in a very dark place. And it`s really hard to see that that moment is going to pass. And there`s so many suicides that actually happen because of being stuck in that moment. And that was me. I couldn`t stay. And I didn`t know how to leave. And it was, you know, an absolute cry for somebody to help me. And again, I`m really fortunate that it was yet another wake-up call for me.
BEHAR: So, what did you do? I mean, tell me quickly how you got out of it.
OTIS: How I -- how I got --
BEHAR: Yes, how did you get away from the whole thing. You`re so together now. Look at you. You`re a normal person now. You`re not acting crazy. You`re not self-destructive, you`re married to a nice guy, you got two kids.
OTIS: Yes, I do. Therapy is amazing. I -- it`s the best. I made a choice to get into therapy, really intensive therapy, for a long time. I`m a practicing Buddhist, so I`ve been on that path of spirituality and accountability and taking responsibility for myself and my life. And that I do have a choice in what I do today and how I do that.
BEHAR: And the anorexia that you were into really took its toll on your health.
OTIS: It did.
BEHAR: The doctor found that you had three holes in your heart, is that from the anorexia, from the bad nutrition, I take it?
OTIS: Yes, from that kind of level of malnutrition for such a long period of time. You see a lot of young women that have heart problems or heart attacks or, you know, women who have anorexia that actually die of heart attacks. And I was, again, fortunate, so fortunate that that was something that was corrected. And I have an incredibly healthy athletic life today.
BEHAR: And then as you recovered from that, you gained 30 pounds and you became a plus size model, although I don`t think 30 pounds on that skinny frame is a plus size model.
OTIS: No, it was a normal sized individual.
BEHAR: I guess the industry --
OTIS: The industry.
BEHAR: See, the industry is just really so screwed up.
OTIS: Yes. It was my moment to actually find myself. I mean, the irony of gaining weight and having -- finding a voice.
BEHAR: Wasn`t it fun to gain weight and just eat?
OTIS: It was great to eat. It was a little scary at first, and then I actually really got used to it. And still I`m really used to it -- you can recover from an eating disorder.
BEHAR: You can.
OTIS: Absolutely you can.
BEHAR: And you look great. And you`re happy now and we`re very happy for you.
OTIS: Thanks so much for having me.
BEHAR: The book is called "Beauty Disrupted." And be sure to tune in tomorrow when I`ll be talking with Hank Williams Jr. about the comment that got him fired from "Monday Night Football."
Thank you for watching. Good night, everybody.
END
