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Dr. Drew
Latest on Conrad Murray`s Trial
Aired October 14, 2011 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: Here we go. We are dissecting the Conrad Murray trial from top to bottom. Witnesses say Michael Jackson did not have to die and I agree.
And Larry King has snagged the interview everyone else wanted to get, Johnny Depp. The king himself is here to preview his rare sit down with the superstar. So, let`s get ready.
The Conrad Murray trial is in recess until Monday, but there`s action down at the courthouse. Let`s go down to Los Angeles tonight for the latest from HLN`s "In Session" host, Ryan Smith. Ryan, what`s up?
RYAN SMITH, HOST, IN SESSION: Oh, Doctor Drew, you`re right. Even though Doctor Murray is not in the courtroom, there is some action going on. The lawyers met with the judge. In fact, the prosecution showed up a couple of minutes late. So, he fined them 10 bucks for every minute they were late. That`s how much he wants them to be on time.
And the case we`ve learned is moving a little bit quickly because the defense expects to call about fifteen witnesses, mostly experts, also a police officer, but also a lot of character witnesses. People who can come forward and talk about what Doctor Murray was like as a doctor.
So, that will be very interesting. And the prosecution as well talked about the anesthesiologist, Steven Shafer. He is their last witness and he is going to talk about how propofol killed Michael Jackson.
So, he has a lot of graphs he is bringing to show what happened. But, looks like his presentation is going to be complicated. So a lot going on right now. And all has to do with what`s going to happen next week.
PINSKY: Well, thanks, Ryan, for that update. That`s very interesting. What kind of doctor he was. As a cardiologist has no bearing in my opinion on how he did as this primary care doctor of a very difficult patient.
And by the way, Ryan, thank you so much for filling in for me yesterday. I really do appreciate it. I will be calling on you again, I suspect. Well done.
SMITH: Thanks.
PINSKY: Now, tonight I want to discuss - let`s call the elephant in the room. And that is the complicated relationship celebrities sometimes strike up with physicians, particularly those they put on the payroll.
I need to explain something that physicians are required to maintain and model something called healthy boundaries. I want to show you a few of Jackson`s former doctors and what they all seem to say that illustrates how unhealthy the doctors he selected were with their boundaries. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Doctor Arnold climb, the famed dermatologist that was Michael Jackson`s long time physician and friend.
DOCTOR ARNOLD CLIMB, MICHAEL JACKSON`S PHYSICIAN, FRIEND: I will never be the same because we lost the most talented man of our age. Don`t forget, I lost my best friend.
PINSKY: He says he was not only his doctor but my friend.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Many of my patients are my friends. You know, but with Michael, it was something different. Even when I wasn`t treating him, our friendship extended beyond that.
CONRAD MURRAY, DEFENDANT IN MICHAEL JACKSON`S DEATH: Mister Jackson was my friend. I loved him. We had a good relationship.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: Here`s the deal. Often times in primary care and always when someone has addiction or psychiatric problems, having a dual relationship is profoundly destructive to the patient. By dual relationship, we mean being one thing and another, being a doctor and a friend, being a doctor and a father, doctor and a brother. You don`t do that. It is unethical and damaging to the patient. So, is Conrad Murray bragging and showing off his famous client? Or was he taking care on a patient? Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DEBORAH BRAZIL, PROSECUTOR: When Conrad Murray told you he was Michael Jackson`s physician, were you interested in that information?
NICOLE ALVAREZ, CONRAD MURRAY`S FORMER GIRLFIREND: Absolutely.
BRAZIL: And why is that?
ALVAREZ: It`s Michael Jackson.
BRAZIL: Must have been pretty exciting?
ALVAREZ: Definitely.
BRAZIL: How did it come to be that you actually got to meet Mister Jackson in person? Did Conrad Murray arrange that for you?
ALVAREZ: Yes, he did.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: That is another boundary violation. As physicians there`s something called HIPPA laws that explicitly prevent us from telling you who is in under our care. That, without will consent from the patient, again, particular to those with a health issues, do we go - yes, by the way, that`s my patient. No.
Patients are protected against that. Criminal defense attorney Mark Eiglarsh joins me, also Psychiatrist Jeffrey Borenstein. And Doctor Leigh Vinocur on emergency medicine expert.
Doctor Borenstein, I want to start with you. I think you understand as a psychiatrist more clearly than any of us. Doctor Borenstein, let`s go to you. There you are. This business of doctors being a patient and a friend, how do we make - do we need to make our peers more accountable for this kind of boundary violation and how do you help the public understand the dangers of that?
DOCTOR JEFFREY BORENSTEIN, PSYCHIATRIST: Absolutely. This is so inappropriate. And you can`t be the physician and the friend. It`s one or the other. And the doctor-patient relationship is sacrosanct. And it is supposed to be a one way street. A friendship is a two-way street, you help your friend, the friend helps you. The doctor-patient relationship is very special. The doctor is there to help the patient and not get other benefits from it, which we`re seeing today.
PINSKY: Doctor Borenstein, I want to tell you. One of the another adulteration of that relationship that Doctor Murray had with Michael Jackson, at one point Michael Jackson convinced Doctor Murray, this grandiose fantasy that Doctor Murray got sucked into because they were friends, they were going to start a children`s hospital together that would solve children`s` problems around the world. And Doctor Murray was going to be the medical director. That`s in his interrogation from the police and he reports it as if it is my friend. And these were plans we had together.
Doctor Borenstein, how do you make people understand how inappropriate that is?
BORENSTEIN: I think you`re making the point and it is crucial because this isn`t openly for famous people, for celebrities, this is for anybody, that if you feel as if the doctor is crossing the line and becoming your friend, that means the doctor is not doing his job, he is not helping you. And especially where there`s issues of chemical dependency involved, the doctor in this case became an enabler, and made matters much worse and resulted in a death.
PINSKY: That`s right. Exactly. It is a life and death, potentially a life and death problem we`re talking about here. Here is a film Martin Bashir, I guess he was talking about another doctor who was with Jackson in Germany. As he had doctors that were friends, violating boundaries all over the world. This - Bashir had interesting things to say. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEP CLIP)
MARTIN BASHIR, DOCUMENTARY FILM MAKER: I spent time with Jackson in Las Vegas as you know and also in Berlin. And when I was in Berlin in that scene where he held young Blanket over the balcony, there was a doctor with him. A doctor called Alex Fashin (ph). I don`t think I can remember an evening in Berlin when Doctor Alex Fashin (ph), who hails from Florida and runs some kind of unorthodox orthopedic treatment center, I never saw him without a glass chivas regal in his hand. He was completely enamored by the superstar. He was lost completely in the man`s glory and greatness.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Mark, there are so many doctors in my mind that are contributing or did contribute to Michael`s death. Even again in Murray`s interrogation, he talks about multiple pill bottles from other doctors, well, he wanted to keep that private, so what do you do. How do you make these guys accountable? Is this going to be over when Doctor Murray is sentenced, I am assuming?
MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, let`s focus on what`s really the issue. Because I think what you and others are buying into, this defense theory that others gave him pills so maybe they`re also liable for the death.
Hold on a second here. The only issue is who caused Michael`s death at the time he died. And yes, there are others that shouldn`t have given him pills and we should examine and maybe question whether they should have a license by liberally giving pills to Michael Jackson, a known addict. That`s one thing.
But who caused his death hinges upon let`s start with his death and then move backwards just a little bit. What caused his death? Who administered the propofol? Who administered the pills? How did this all happen? And some of these doctors weren`t around for months. They don`t have anything to do with who caused his death at that very moment. That`s the issue in this criminal trial.
PINSKY: Mark, I am so glad you brought that up. Because by no means mean to imply anything other than what you`re saying. I completely agree with you. And I agree he is the one that approximately caused that death.
Doctor Vinocur, you have something to add here?
DOCTOR LEIGH VINOCUR, EMERGENCY MEDICINE: Well, obviously the fact that you give a person a strong, strong anesthetic agent and you leave. I mean, if you would do that in a hospital, I mean, there are rules and regulations. Doctors have to get certified in using something like that. There has to be a nurse there monitoring him constantly through the whole procedure. So, the fact that he left the room is an egregious problem and is negligence and that`s what contributed to his death. That he was left alone on an anesthetic.
PINSKY: Right. Both of you, I agree, the proximate cause is the propofol and Doctor Murray. But I got to tell you, as you read through his interrogation report which chronicles I mean I am convinced that Doctor Murray believes he did everything exactly right. And I want to say again reading that interrogation report, once Michael Jackson was dead, once he found him dead, he kicked into all his card logical training and he did everything exactly right. But everything up to that point was so far out of bounds for what poor Michael Jackson needed, a patient with substance problems and boundary issues. It was so far, so egregious, I can`t even tell you. But yes, both of you, I agree. The proximate cause, Doctor Murray.
Now, you want to know what`s coming next, the trial. Go to hlnTV.com/MichaelJackson to find out. We are open there 24/7 of course.
Next, one of Doctor Murray`s peers calls his actions inexcusable. We will take a look at Murray`s missed steps on the day Jackson died after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DOCTOR ALON STEINBERG, CARDIOLOGIST: When you monitor a patient, you never leave their side. Especially after giving propofol. It`s like leaving a baby that`s sleeping on your kitchen countertop.
(END VIDEP CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVIS WALGREN, PROSECUTOR: Had you ever heard of any doctor using propofol in their practice of medicine to treat insomnia?
STEINBERG: I have never heard of it.
(END VIDEP CLIP)
PINSKY: Nor had I prior to this case. That was prosecutor David Walgren questioning the cardiologist, Alon Steinberg. A court observer state that that man`s testimony, the cardiologist, was so powerful it may have sealed Conrad Murray`s fate right there.
Now, here is what got me. Doctor Steinberg used his own words and missteps to build the case against him. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEINBERG: They gave me a lot of material to review, but I decided on my review, I wanted to judge Doctor Murray on his very own words. So I relied solely on his testimony when I wrote out my report.
WALGREN: You in fact found six separate and distinct extreme deviations from the standard of care?
STEINBERG: Yes.
(END VIDEP CLIP)
PINSKY: Doctor Borenstein, I would like to go to you first. This was the part of the interrogation report that chilled me. And that is it appears that Doctor Murray really believed he had done everything proper. Perfectly. In fact I think he convinced his attorneys of this. And as I said a few minutes ago, once Michael Jackson was dead, he did. He is assailable how he behave really I mean in terms of resuscitation, I looked through it carefully. Because he is a cardiologist. I mean you can pick it apart a little bit. But he did a normal resuscitation using card logical technique, explaining why he did every single step.
But up to that point, the way he described how he found out about the propofol, prescribing Michael Jackson kind of it, a resteral (ph), a valium, and painkillers. And knowing, this is the part that kills me and I think I`m going to ask you this, he knew multiple other doctors were prescribing. And he went well, what are you going to do? He wanted to keep that private.
And by the way, he come back from Doctor Klein`s office, using - I`m using Doctor Murray`s words now, totally wasted and yet he wouldn`t question that or confront that and just continue to go on administering these dangerous substances.
How do you help to understand, a, how do we help the public understand how egregious that all is, and b, what`s wrong with us these days as physicians that we don`t understand basic psychiatry?
BORENSTEIN: First of all, I think most physicians do. And there`s exception of course. In this case, it is so egregious, and the fact he knew the patient was doctor shopping and getting a variety of pills from a variety of doctors, that is unacceptable. Totally unacceptable. And the fact that he used this agent as a sleeping agent is outlandish. If it was in a script for a movie, they`d throw the script out because it is so outlandish.
So, I think the take home message for people watching this is if you`re being treated or a loved one is being treated and doing this kind of doctor shopping, having a doctor that you feel is your friend, then a red flag should go off and you should be concerned what`s going on here.
PINSKY: I would also say if you know you have addiction, or have ever been diagnosed with addiction or a loved one has and you are getting an addictive drug from a doctor, you are in harm`s way. It may be appropriate under very stringent circumstances but you are potentially in harm`s way and you should know that.
Now, Doctor Steinberg on the stand there, referred to six deviations from standard of care. He referred to them as grossly negligent. I want to talk about three of them today. First, he failed to plan for an emergency.
Doctor Vinocur, was Murray`s so arrogant as to think perhaps nothing would go wrong or was he just negligent not to prepare?
VINOCUR: It is hard to tell. I mean I think he was just negligence. You know you`re using a powerful drug that you can put somebody to sleep with and operate on them, cut them open. And he is using this inappropriately. And then where`s the suction? Where`s the cardiac monitor? Where, you know, he had a pulse ox monitor supposedly but didn`t have a cardiac monitor. He didn`t have suction set up. He didn`t have you know, I sort of disagree, Doctor Drew, even when he found him unresponsive, that`s a respiratory arrest. He said he had a blood pressure. So, that means you have a pulse. You shouldn`t be starting chest compressions now. If you have a respiratory arrest, you need to into-bait the person, put it in (inaudible) to at least bag them, do mouth to mouth. You got to do some kind of rescue breathing.
PINSKY: He did. He did. He actually did do that. If you read it, he lost the pulse quick. He was doing mouth to mouth. Michael is so tiny. He was doing compressions like this, like you would a child. But let me also, let me also - right - you were going to say?
VINOCUR: No. I was going to say, so you know it is going to be a respiratory arrest when you come back. You should immediately at that point be in the mode where you`re going to have the equipment to into-bait him, start to bagging him, have someone else call 911 while you`re doing that.
PINSKY: Right. Of course. Of course. And let me also remind both physicians on this panel, he had been hypo-ventilated, that is to say he`d been on propofol so long and so poorly attended to, that his lungs weren`t moving normally during his sleep. That at the time of autopsy, he had diffused in his scarring and (inaudible), deputes from hypoventilation. That`s how long he had been getting this nonsense.
VINOCUR: Right. That`s why when you get the anesthetic and they put you asleep to operate on the liver or spleen, you have to be put on a ventilator because you`re not breathing on your own.
PINSKY: Exactly right. Now, the second egregious sort of area he fell off the rail here, failing to summon emergency help when necessary. Mark, I want to ask you, this doctor seemed more concerned talking to girlfriends than saving a patient`s life, do you agree with that?
EIGLARSH: It certainly looks that way. And what the defense is going to have to argue is it wouldn`t have mattered. That he came back in, Michael Jackson wasn`t breathing, there`s nothing they could have done. We know that`s not what the facts support.
By the way, Drew, I need to ask you, is there any truth at all to the rumor that I`m going to start now on your show, that you are actually one of the 15 defense witnesses t say Conrad Murray did nothing wrong?
PINSKY: No, I think you can count - I don`t think - you can count me out of that list, I suspect.
EIGLARSH: That rumor, we can stop right now?
PINSKY: OK. Because I tell what you, Mark, I was a little unclear about things, didn`t take a strong position until I read the interrogation report. Then it is so clear to me how bad the doctoring was and how much in need of good doctoring poor Michael Jackson was.
Now, the third issue was failing to maintain proper medical records.
Doctor Borenstein, I want to go back to you. Murray was earning $150,000 a month. He had this special relationship with his patient. Did all that cause him to think it was some sort of unique experience or unique circumstance that didn`t require medical records?
BORENSTEIN: Now, who knows? I think first of all, maybe he didn`t have a medical record because he knew how inappropriate the care was. And I think when you go to the amount that he was earning, this is another red flag. If the physician charges some amount above and beyond what he normally would charge, that`s a red flag. Why is he doing that? So, there were just so many problems in this case. And I think it is important for people to realize that.
PINSKY: Well Mark, Doctor Borenstein, Doctor Vinocur. I appreciate you guys, very much for being this part of this panel. Hope, we`ll have you back soon.
On call is next. If you have something to say about the Conrad Murray trial, you can say it at hlnTV.com/MichaelJackson. We will be back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: The doctor-patient relationship. How does it impact treatment? We`ve been talking about that subject throughout the Conrad Murray trial particularly today. Now I want to hear what you have to say on this topic. So, we posted a poll on our Web site.
The question was do you see your doctor as a friend? Very simply. And 16 percent of you said yes, but 84 percent of you, a healthy manner, said no.
So, let`s hear more of what you have to say. Mary Anne in Arkansas. What have you got?
MARY ANNE, CALLER, ARKANSAS: Hi, Doctor Drew.
PINSKY: Hi Mary Anne.
MARY ANNE: Question for you. How do you handle it when a friend, a real friend, becomes a patient, or vice versa. How do you enforce the boundaries you talk about?
PINSKY: Right. It is a very good question. It depend what kind of doctor you are, again, if a therapist or you are psychiatrist, you might never violate that boundary. But, in general medicine what would you say if somebody is a friend, I literally have done this before, I would be like look, our friendship would have to end. If you need me to do this job, I am now become your doctor, I`m no longer your friend.
And by the same token, if someone had been a patient say year in the past and we strike up a relationship in the real world, I have to make it clear that you know I can no longer be your doctor, this is not part - and that`s actually a tougher transition. One that most people try not to make because we have a basic saying, once a patient, always a patient. So, going from doctor to friend is actually dicer transition and try not to make that one. Sometimes, they didn`t make it.
Heather on facebook writes. "How is a patient supposed to trust a doctor if they don`t feel as if the doctor is their friend?"
PINSKY: We pointed this out earlier. A friendship is a two-way street, right? Gives and take. While a doctor-patient relationship is only a one way street for the patient. And do not confuse a friend with friendly. Your doctor can be very friendly and feel comfortable and close, but he or she is not your friend. You can count on them to be there for you. You don`t have to be there for them.
Back to the phones. Linda in Idaho. Go ahead.
LINDA, CALLER, IDAHO: Hi, Doctor Drew. I just wanted to say that Doctor Murray is the person who gave Michael Jackson the drugs. He provided it for him. And regardless of whether Michael Jackson took that fatal dose himself, it really doesn`t matter. It was provided to him. He freely gave it to him. And if he didn`t want him to have it, he should have said no. Simple word, no. And more doctors should learn to use it.
PINSKY: Linda well said. Enough said. I don`t need to say any more than that. I agree with you 1,000 percent.
William on facebook writes. "Perhaps, Doctor Murray`s biggest error was trying to control an addiction that was in the end uncontrollable."
PINSKY: You know, I think I get your point, but the reality is he didn`t identify addiction. And then if he had, would not have known what to do with it. So he didn`t identify addiction or for treatment, that was the mistake.
Gary writes. "Do you think doctors need more training on addiction?"
PINSKY: And I do believe that very strongly. We have done a much better of it in recent years. I actually go to medical schools and lecture every year on this topic. Back in my day, we got essentially no training. So, it has improved quite a bit. But we still need to stay on this clearly.
Now, we have got complete and comprehensive coverage of the Conrad Murray trial on our Web site, hlnTV.com/MichaelJackson. Be sure to check that out.
And next, I have a former Jackson family confidant. And he has very interesting claims that involve street drugs, concerns about the family for Michael Jackson, previous and multiple interventions because the family was so convinced he was a severe addict over years. A whole lot more coming. So please, stick around.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: The man who predicted Michael Jackson`s death and the way it would happen is here. He`ll tell us what he knows about the day the pop star passed.
And I`ll interview the world`s most famous interviewer about Michael Jackson and his own Emmy. Larry King previews his one-on-one interview with Johnny Depp
LARRY KING, CNN ANCHOR: How did you react to getting famous?
JOHNNY DEPP, ACTOR: I`m still reacting, you know?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (on-camera): Welcome back. We are only moments away from Larry King right here in his old studio. He would be right over there. I used to come be a guest on his show right over there. Actually sat in his seat a couple times and I want to talk about that. It was intense experience.
But first, we have news about the other king, the King of Pop. Our guest is co-author of the best-selling book about Michael Jackson, "The Man behind the Mask." He is a former Jackson family confidant who knows where all the skeletons are buried.
Welcome Stacy Brown, a one-time insider who is probably not going to be at this year`s family Jackson family Christmas. Now, Stacy, you met Michael but weren`t friends with him, I guess. How did you come to know all of these intimate details?
STACY BROWN, CO-AUTHOR, "THE MAN BEHIND THE MASK": Well, I was around his family for so long, and particularly, Jermaine Jackson and I shared a lot of talk, a lot of confidential talk. And so, truly Joseph and Katherine, Rebbie and others, we talked a lot about the goings on at the time that I was around anyway of the family. And, you knew that they knew that something was wrong with Michael for a long time.
PINSKY: And I said in the intro that you knew how he was going to die. What did you predict and how did you know?
BROWN: Well, right after his acquittal in the molestation case, a news organization asked me about what he would be doing in ten years, and I simply stated that I didn`t think he`d be alive in 10 years, and that was simply because if you watched the trial and many of us did, you saw someone who was beaten emotionally, and you knew if you were around him or around his family, I know a lot of people who actually was much more close to him than I ever was.
You know, my conversations and my contact with him was very limited, although, my contact with the family was extraordinary. They had a lot of concerns. A lot of family members thought that his prescription drug problem was beyond prescription drugs. They always suspected that there was street drugs involved as well, and they were very concerned. They tried a number of times to stage interventions.
We talked about them. Janet Jackson actually got the family a therapist, and they wanted Michael so badly, so desperately to be a part of the therapist, of the therapy sessions that were going on. He often times would refuse. I don`t believe he ever took part in them. And they were concerned for a long time.
You know, Dr. Drew, I recall so eerie to me, a date back in 2001, I think it was March, Michael was being inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, and I remember talking to Jermaine. I was in New York. I was going to the ceremony, and Jermaine said to me, he says, you know, you have to look at my brother and tell me what you think when you see him.
And I said well, what do you mean? He says he`s doing really bad, and I want your opinion. So, I saw Michael. I went up to Michael. I said hello, he said hello. He was with Justin Timberlake and N`Sync. And his eyes were bloodshot red. He looked -- his face was drawn. He looked awful. He looked like he was on death`s door at the time.
And I remember calling Jermaine and saying you guys have to do something. And that was the year he was planning the 30th anniversary celebrations in New York, and that happened. Well, it took them until December to stage their first attempt of an intervention. It was December and in New York City, no less, at a hotel here.
They attempted to intervene. At that point, Michael informed them to, quote, "mind your business, this is my life," and he, at that time actually told them himself, he says, I won`t be around long anyway. And this is according to Jermaine Jackson.
PINSKY: Wow. Wow. That was after he had been treated for addiction and identified as an addict, right? He was treated prior to that?
BROWN: That`s correct.
PINSKY: Yes. So, he, at one point, was saying I`m an addict. I`m coming clean, then he got back on pills to a dangerous degree. And did you know anything about -- the family know who the doctors were that were prescribing all this?
BROWN: They knew the names of Arnold Klein. They knew the names of Allen Metzger. They knew the names of several different doctors that treated him. I know that in the book that Bob Jones, that I wrote for Bob Jones, Bob Jones talked about a number of these doctors and how Michael would doctor shop, and it`s a term that I`m hearing a lot during this trial, that he doctor shopped.
And there`s truth to that. But again, you know, it`s not to take Dr. Murray off the hook. Dr. Murray is a doctor. He has the Hippocratic oath, and he should have taken better care of his patient.
PINSKY: Well, I`m not sure he even needed to doctor shop. Stacy, I don`t think he needed to doctor shop. He had doctors on the line. He had this guys, Metzger and Klein, I guess, as you say, and Murray, and these guys in Germany that would just give him what he wanted. I mean, he didn`t need to shop. He found what he was looking for.
BROWN: Oh, yes.
PINSKY: Why do you think --
BROWN: He did have one doctor --
PINSKY: Yes?
BROWN: He did have one doctor that refused. In fact, I believe the doctor is still friends with Michael`s family, Hofflin. Dr. Hofflin had refused, Steven Hofflin refused to give Michael any more medication. He refused to do any more surgery on Michael Jackson, and he informed other doctors, don`t touch this guy again. It`s very dangerous.
As you know, Dr. Drew, back in 1993, Michael went public and said he was an addict. And a lot of it had to do with the fact that Elizabeth Taylor convinced him to go into a rehab facility overseas back at that time, and that was obviously during the first public molestation allegations.
PINSKY: Yes. Do you think that some of the -- one of the theories, I tell you this, I have seen in my own practice, and I believe Michael was doing the same thing that I`ve seen some of my patients do is go, getting multiple plastic surgeries to get the drugs, to get the sleeping medicine, and get the painkillers. Do you think he was doing some of that?
BROWN: Well, Bill Bray, Michael`s former head of security, long-time head of security, he was with the Jackson 5 back at Motown. Bill Bray passed away a couple of years ago, unfortunately, but Bill Bray, for the book that I wrote for Bob Jones, Bill Bray talked about just that. And the thing is, as everyone says, you don`t say no to Michael Jackson. It`s unfortunate.
Michael would -- we saw the so-called accidents. We saw him on crutches. I will never forget one of the greatest performances I`ve ever seen in my life was Soul Train Music Awards back in 1993. Michael announced that he had broke his leg, but he -- yet he performed in a chair the song "Remember the Time." And later, there was the spider bite.
It was always something with the leg and the crutches, and what Bill Bray said was that Michael would intentionally hurt himself so that he can get certain medications.
BROWN: That`s interesting. Well, Stacy, thank you. It`s very enlightening. I hope to talk to you again. And again, please do check out "The Man Behind the Mask" if you want to read more about this. Stacy, thank you.
And also, I want to point that HLN cannot confirm the names of the physicians who were involved with Michael Jackson. This is Stacy`s knowledge and not ours.
Now, do you want to know what the defense is planning for next week? Find the answer to that and much more at hlntv.com/michaeljackson.
Next, Larry King is here to talk about his new CNN special that airs this Sunday night at 8:00 p.m. eastern. It is an exclusive interview with actor, Johnny Depp. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KING: How did you react to getting famous?
DEPP: I`m still reacting, you know, still. I`m still sort of dealing with it. I don`t think it`s anything you ever get used to, you know?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KING: California law says you had to bury in a cemetery, right?
JERMAINE JACKSON, MICHAEL JACKSON`S BROTHER: That`s pretty much yes, but as you know, the ones who make the laws, they can also could change it, too. I would love to see him here.
KING: Do you have a place for him here?
JACKSON: Yes. There`s a special place right over near the train station right over there.
KING: That we saw before?
JACKSON: Yes. It`s hard, Larry, to point where your brother is going to be. It`s tough.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That is Larry King interviewing Jermaine Jackson a week after Michael had died. Larry is here tonight to talk about his CNN special with Johnny Depp. But first, I have to ask about the Jackson family and the trial. Larry, what do you make of what`s going on in court these days?
KING: You know, I`ve been in broadcasting 54 years. I`ve been an adult for a long time. I always approach trials the same way. I`m not there. I don`t hear all the testimony. I don`t hear both sides. And I`m not in the jury.
So I have never tried never to make a guess as to the outcome of a trial or to find someone guilty or not guilty. So, the answer is I don`t know. The problem that you have now is the prosecutions presented its case, right, and it looks killing, but we haven`t heard the defense.
PINSKY: Right.
KING: So in other words, supposing this is just conjecture, first defense witness is an esteemed doctor from Chicago, right?
PINSKY: Yes.
KING: I used propofol all the time.
PINSKY: Right. Right.
KING: Oh, I`ve used it in homes.
PINSKY: Right.
KING: Then what?
PINSKY: Not only that, you could get doctors to say almost anything in court these days, and the jury may not be aware of the sort of paid guns, you know what I mean? Hired hands.
KING: A great lawyer told me once, I asked him, what`s the role of a defense lawyer? And he says he has only one role. To make one juror put himself or herself in the client`s shoes. So, someone sitting on that jury saying if I were a doctor, I would have done that, you got a hung jury.
PINSKY: Well, it`s interesting. It seems like that`s the strategy they`re now going to take. Apparently, he was a good cardiologist. And so, they are going to parade all these peers and friends --
KING: To out (ph)?
PINSKY: Yes. And he was just so over his head. I also understand you were upset that they showed that picture of Michael.
KING: I was, because from my knowledge of criminal trials which is based on interviewing people, usually, you show an autopsy when there`s been a murder, so that the jury sees the bullet entered here, the forensic expert. The medical examiner says here`s went through here. That`s what came out here. This was the cause of death. In this case, there`s no -- it`s not a murder trial.
PINSKY: Yes. Well, it is a murder trial.
KING: No, it`s not. It`s a --
PINSKY: A manslaughter.
KING: Involuntary manslaughter.
PINSKY: Yes.
KING: And there was no -- no one`s charged with deliberate killing of another person nor is there any body marks to identify killing.
PINSKY: Right.
KING: So, by showing the body, to me, it was just appealing to some sort of interest (ph), I guess --
PINSKY: Or maybe to dramatize how sad this is or something.
(CROSSTALK)
KING: It might (INAUDIBLE) prosecution because they also played Dr. Murray`s interview, portions of his interview. So, therefore, he didn`t really have to testify.
PINSKY: Right.
KING: You heard him say how much he loved Michael. Jury probably believed that.
PINSKY: He said all kinds of things that you`re never supposed to do as a doctor, but the jury may not know that, and the prosecution did not make a big deal out of that. I mean, that`s supposed to be a doctor`s patient -- doctor is not supposed to be a patient and friend, especially for people with mental health issues and addiction. You never do that.
KING: What`s -- I`m interviewing again.
PINSKY: Yes. Go ahead.
KING: What happens when your doctor becomes your friend?
PINSKY: The problem is the friendship is a two-way relationship, and the doctor/patient relationship is a one-way relationship. It`s I`m here for you, period.
KING: So, the doctor shouldn`t be a friend.
PINSKY: It should not, especially when there is mental health issues, especially when there`s addiction. it should never happen, never, ever.
KING: Do you think he knew there were other drugs being gotten by Michael?
PINSKY: This document right here says it very clearly. He gives names of doctors, what the pills were and everything. And then he says, well, he wanted to keep it quiet -- he wanted to keep it to himself, what am I supposed to do.
What? You`re responsible for this guy`s health and you`re letting him -- you know he`s doing stuff and you`re continuing to prescribe. There`s issues. There`s issues.
KING: I don`t know about issues. In addiction, and nobody knows addiction better than you.
PINSKY: Yes.
KING: What do you do with a client who is addicted? Do you not ever give him anything? What do you do?
PINSKY: You should never give him anything addicting.
KING: Anything?
PINSKY: Ever.
KING: He`s on the floor, crawling and frothing at the mouth.
PINSKY: If he`s having a surgery, here`s how you do it. I`m not into somebody suffering. That`s not my goal at all. You realize that they`re about to be exposed to something that will reawaken their disease. You plan for that.
You decide how long they`re going to be on it, and you decide ahead of time when you`re going to stop it, because once they`re on it, they`re going to start demanding and you bring recovering people around them.
KING: Now, you got a client saying, I want to sleep. I`m not going to tour if I don`t.
PINSKY: It`s hard. Yes.
KING: Please, help me sleep.
PINSKY: Yes.
KING: No, I`m not going to help you sleep.
PINSKY: It`s hard. It`s really hard. That`s why you bring a team in. You have to have a show of force, because one-on-one, you`ll lose every time. You will lose. It`s interesting.
Let`s talk about Johnny Depp. Now, Larry just interviewed Johnny Depp, his special with this very private star airs on Sunday at 8:00 on CNN. Depp was, at the time, at the Los Angeles premier of his new film "The Rum Diaries." That was just last night, and here`s what he had to say about his interview with Larry.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You didn`t try to kiss him on the lips like Brando, did you?
DEPP: No, I tried. He wouldn`t have it, but --
(LAUGHTER)
DEPP: No, he is very sweet. He is a good man. He`s someone I`ve admired for a long time. He`s a real old school, sort of proper journalist. I enjoyed it very much.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Now, I hear a rumor that Johnny tried to kiss you like Brando did or something.
KING: No, he didn`t. We were having a lot of fun. He`s a great guest as hopefully your audience will see. He is responsive. There`s the Brando kiss.
PINSKY: Oh, yes.
KING: Brando was his mentor, close friend. We show you a tour of his office, a painting he did of Brando. Beautiful painting. I think we have where he talked about Marlon in this tape. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Brando had that big an effect on you?
DEPP: Oh, yes. Marlon was -- I don`t think I`ve never known anyone. I mean, I was very close with Marlon. I was very close with Hunter. I was very close with a couple of people here and there, but Marlon was -- his generosity and his understanding and his concern and his level of caring, he was --
KING: He was great to me.
DEPP: He was a wonderful man, you know?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: He mentions Hunter as Thompson in that piece of interview. And "The Rum Diary" is one of his books.
KING: A book he never published. He wrote it when he was 22. It was his only novel. And he didn`t like it. But he promised him when he read it, when Johnny read it, that he would make that movie. Hunter, you know, was a suicide victim, blown out of a cannon. His ashes were blown out of a cannon that he paid for.
PINSKY: Johnny --
KING: Johnny Depp had the canon built.
PINSKY: Was it hard at time to open up?
KING: No, I didn`t find it hard. I`ve been fortunate. Maybe, I should have been in your profession, but I always had a good time.
PINSKY: maybe you were used to it.
KING: I always was able to get people, even when I was a kid, I remember, I`d get on a bus and ask a bus driver, why do you want to drive a bus? What do you get out of this? And I sill am that way. So, I think when you approach anybody about their profession and your curiosity and you make good eye contact and you don`t have an agenda, I`m not there to embarrass you.
I`m there to learn. I`m a conduit. So, I think people should open up. If you`re good at it and you`re sincerely curious and I`m curious about Johnny. Why is -- how does he deal with fame?
PINSKY: How does he?
KING: Not well. He doesn`t like it.
PINSKY: What most --
KING: He`s a little embarrassed by it.
PINSKY: Yes. He seems like kind of like --
KING: You know, like you --
PINSKY: Just me.
KING: You know, it`s a crazy way to make a living as he calls acting. It`s a crazy way to make a living, playing other people, being other people. They pay you for this. People want to take pictures with you when you walk down the street.
PINSKY: Just because he plays somebody else.
KING: And he doesn`t like paparazzi, of course, because they`re invading.
PINSKY: And I think you said that he`s just a regular guy, take his kids at school. I`ve got to take a quick break, but we`ll be back with more Larry.
And just in case you don`t know by now, go, please, to hlntv.com/michaeljackson for everything and anything about the Conrad Murray trial.
Next, Larry was just honored at the Emmys with a lifetime achievement award. We`re going to talk about it. And do not forget to tune into his exclusive interview with actor, Johnny Depp, that airs this Sunday on CNN at 8:00 p.m. eastern. Don`t go away.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRIAN WILLIAMS, ANCHOR: Larry King is one of the most influential talk show hosts in the history of television news. Ladies and gentlemen, Larry King.
(APPLAUSE)
KING: I really don`t know what to say. I`ve never been at a loss for words. But I thank you, Brian Williams, for coming over and doing that. He`s a special guy as are all the people here, because I was lucky enough to be in a business where I really didn`t have to work. It was a joy every night. Radio or television, to go in and meet people from all walks of life and ask them questions.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Just last month, Larry was honored at the Emmys with a lifetime achievement award for his 50 years in broadcasting, plus 25 years of "Larry King Live." And Larry rejoins me now.
KING: That was an unbelievable night.
PINSKY: Yes. I bet.
KING: Yes. When you`re honored by your peers and Brian Williams, he was very funny. It didn`t show the earlier part. You know, there were so many wonderful people there, and there`s a lot of folks from CNN. All the brass was there. The suits.
PINSKY: Yes.
KING: It was just, you know, what do you say, you know? A lifetime achievement. There`s only two reasons to get a lifetime achievement, and one of them is you`re not old, you`re not young.
(LAUGHTER)
KING: You know, 26-year-olds don`t get lifetime achievement awards.
(LAUGHTER)
PINSKY: You`re right. I heard that Johnny Depp, though, was one of the interviews you always wanted to get.
KING: Yes. There`s a few left now.
PINSKY: You`re going to get them?
KING: We do four specials a year.
PINSKY: Yes.
KING: We did one on Alzheimer`s. We did one on the making of the movie, the British movie, they made eight of them. Harry Potter.
PINSKY: Harry Potter, of course.
KING: See, they come and go.
(LAUGHTER)
KING: And then, now, we got Johnny Depp, the next special on December 4th, we pre take it. they`re editing it now. It`s called dinner with the kings. We have eight people (ph) together at dinner. They include --
PINSKY: That could be a series.
KING: The inventor of Tweeter.
PINSKY: Yes.
KING: Conan O`Brien, Seth MacFarlane.
PINSKY: Oh, Larry. I`m so mad you didn`t invite me. Just to watch these people --
KING: And Johnny Depp says if we do another one, he`ll come to it.
(CROSSTALK)
KING: The next two that I really want to do is Castro. I would love to do Fidel.
PINSKY: You`ve never done him.
KING: Never done him. Went down to Havana last year, met some officials, tried to make some in roads. And I like to do Mr. Bruce Springsteen. I`ve never done or never met Bruce Springsteen.
PINSKY: Maybe, Bruce, if you`re out there, contact Larry`s people and let`s set that up.
KING: We`ll do it.
PINSKY: Larry, I just want to finish up with something. Thank you for coming on. And again, I want to remind people to watch the Johnny Depp interview this Sunday, but I always try to finish with a couple of final thoughts. And, this is a chance for me to give my thoughts directly to you. I`m getting kind of emotional thinking about it. It`s interesting.
First of all, you and I shared that we have this curiosity for people. You said that at the Emmys, and I have that as well, too, but I don`t know. People appreciate what a wonderful broadcaster you are and what that means. I think you know, when I use that word, what I mean by that. I mean, old radio guys. I`ve been in radio for 30 years broadcasting and that immediacy of broadcasting and communicating.
I don`t know if anybody use that word enough when they talk about you, but I think just thinking as your broadcasting skills have inspired me. And you`ve been kind enough to let me sit in your seat. I also understood how profound, complexity that things you had to manage were. I actually have to go out. I have much more to say. I`ll say it to you after, I guess, but thank you for being here.
KING: Thank you.
PINSKY: And thank you all for watching. I appreciate it.
KING: Thank you.
END
