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Where is Baby Lisa?; Moms and Dads who Drink; Interview With Martin Sheen, Emilio Estevez
Aired October 18, 2011 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: Coming up on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, parents of the missing Missouri baby, Lisa Irwin, have lawyered up with a man who represented Joran Van Der Sloot. We`ll examine what this means for the investigations.
Then a Michigan man allegedly used his 9-year-old daughter as his designated driver. We`ll show you the video of the outrageous incident.
Plus Martin Sheen and Emilio Estevez talk about Wall Street, working together and of course, Charlie Sheen.
That and more starting right now.
E.D. HILL, HLN GUEST HOST: Police in Missouri continue searching for Lisa Irwin, the 11-month-old baby who disappeared October 4th. Her parents have now lawyered up with Joe Tacopina, the man who once represented Joran Van Der Sloot. So where is the baby?
With us now to discuss the case: Tom Ruskin, private investigator; and Rosemary Arnold, criminal defense attorney who worked with Baby Lisa`s family lawyer Joe Tacopina on that Joran Van Der Sloot case; CNN`s Jim Spellman joins us as well.
And Jim I want to start with you. I heard that the governor now is getting involved in this. And it`s something about the national guard. What`s happened?
JIM SPELLMAN, CNN ALL-PLATFORM JOURNALIST: On Sunday the National Guard deployed 25 troops here to assist with searching areas that have already been searched. Difficult terrain, dense woods they went inch by inch through. We know that they`ve told us that if they`re needed again, they`ll be ready to deploy. So we think that possibly they`re going to have more of those troops out here to join the searches. That`s exactly what Attorney Joe Tacopina said yesterday, he`d like to see more of the National Guard out here assisting in these searches.
HILL: And he really has since getting on the scene there, going on a very good offense for this family. Has anything new come out up this morning or this evening?
SPELLMAN: Well, we do have two things happening right now. A fresh search of an area, about a mile, mile and a half with the police evidence van is there. We haven`t seen that out for several days. We don`t know exactly what they were looking for. They closed off a block. But there is a fresh search going there.
Also a CNN affiliate KNBC is reporting that in Manhattan, Kansas, about two hours away from here in Kansas City, there is a possible sighting. They`re tracking that down right now. So there are things happening and that`s exactly what Joe Tacopina wants to see more of and less on his client, Deborah Bradley, the mother of Baby Lisa.
HILL: That`s right. Rosemary, you`ve worked with Joe. You know his sort of M.O. What`s he doing down there? What is his first goal?
ROSEMARY ARNOLD, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: His first goal is to protect that baby and to protect those parents. Those people are very simple people and they`re victims. And already in the public eye, in the press, they`re being considered as persons of interest in this case when in fact there is absolutely zero evidence that they did anything -- anything whatsoever to harm that baby.
HILL: Well, hold on a second. You know, when you`re the mother of an 11-month-old and you acknowledge that you`ve gotten drunk, possibly even blacked out and you say it`s because anything after dark is your grown-up time, in my book, you`re hurting your baby right there.
ARNOLD: Well, that might not be the most responsible way to be when you`re with your 11-month old baby, but it doesn`t mean she did anything to the baby.
HILL: You`re right. You`re right.
ARNOLD: And he`s out there to make sure that the investigation is focused on finding that baby. Because if they arrest that mother and there is no evidence right now whereby they should be arresting her, the investigation could come to an end and then they stop looking for this child, who in this case really is the victim of everything.
TOM RUSKIN, PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR: To the police (INAUDIBLE) --
HILL: Yes, please do.
RUSKIN: From a police standpoint, the police reasonably assumed the parents may have had something to do with it.
HILL: Isn`t that normally the case?
(CROSSTALK)
RUSKIN: That`s always the case. Because over history, we know that parents have been involved in abductions as well as kidnappings, as well as killing of their own children.
HILL: But at this point as Rosemary said there`s no evidence.
(CROSSTALK)
RUSKIN: At this point in time, you can`t take any off the table as a possible suspect or subject. And the fact of the matter is she changed her story once or twice. Does it make you look at her a little bit differently? Yes, it does. Does it mean she`s guilty? Absolutely not.
HILL: Well, here`s what Joe Tacopina said about this. He said, you know people are making more of this than it is. She`s not changing her story as to when she saw her baby last. She describes putting the baby to bed at a certain time of night. Obviously she wasn`t clocking that.
Again, I`m a simple mom. I know if I put the baby to bed at 6:30 or at 10:30. And so I know that Joe`s job is to make this seem as, you know, as harmless and there`s nothing to it. But in fact, when time is so crucial here, isn`t that a huge inconsistency?
RUSKIN: It`s a huge inconsistency depending on who your subject is, who the mother is. These are, as Rosemary said, these are very simple people. They come off that way.
The boyfriend does not seem like a very sophisticated guy. So you have to weigh that in. When you`re interviewing as a police officer or as a detective or even as a private investigator, what Bill Stanton is doing is trying to determine their credibility for Joe and for their investigation, to try and determine what happened here. You have to weigh in the sophistication of the person you`re interviewing.
HILL: Rosemary, Joe said that after -- he was kind of uncertain about this and then after spending a lot of time with the family and talking to them, he was now convinced that they didn`t have anything to do with it. When you go in to a case like this and you`ve worked with Joe on a very high-profile case such as this, how can you determine? If you`ve been able to determine it, why haven`t the cops?
ARNOLD: Well, Joe must have information first of all that he got probably from Bill Stanton that indicates to him that there was no foul play in behalf of the parents.
HILL: And Bill Stanton is a private investigator, very well-known one who has worked with Joe and is involved in this case.
ARNOLD: Not to mention, I`m sure Joe spends a lot of time talking to these people and you can tell by people`s visceral reactions to things, how really they feel. Really if you look at all the evidence, there`s no evidence that the parents did anything.
But there is evidence of other sorts that someone else did something. You have evidence that there`s a window that`s tampered with. And you have evidence that there are lights on and things missing from the house. There`s other evidence, too. So then when you weigh it --
HILL: Let`s go back out to Jim in Missouri. What has happened today? I know that yesterday, you said that there had been talk about the police going in and removing items from neighbor`s homes. Have you learned anything else? Have they gone and perhaps questioned other people?
SPELLMAN: We don`t know if they`ve questioned anybody. But one thing they are focusing on is using dogs more in the search. Yesterday there were dogs out here at the home of Baby Lisa and at the next door neighbor. We saw them bringing out bags from the next door neighbor`s house. Investigators here insist though that that is not evidence; it`s material related to the dog search. It`s been suggested that that is material that might have had scent on it that they can then take and use for a dog to smell at another location to see if they get a hit off on that other location.
At the searches going on right now, a few miles from here, we do know that they are using dogs and when they searched that area previous, they hadn`t used dogs. So they are ramping up investigations like that but they tell us none of it is based on new leads or new information. We don`t have any reasonably -- they haven`t interviewed anybody new.
HILL: That is what is so frustrating about this telling me though that there -- it just seems to be that blank wall that you`re hitting. There are these odd things, the window, the cell phones missing, that sort of stuff.
And what kind of really frustrated me today is that I had bought the story that the family was telling. That they had been talking to the police, they`ve given them all of this information. The police today came out and very forcefully said, they have not been talking to us to the way they indicate. When they were given a chance to talk to the mother, they said that during it she had become uncomfortable and she would stop the discussion.
RUSKIN: Again, you`re not dealing with a very sophisticated mother or father of the child. You also --
HILL: What does sophistication have to do with just answering questions?
RUSKIN: Well, you answer to a certain point. Police have tendency and police have to do their job. Police have a tendency sometimes to be accusatory. The mother said this morning that she was accused of murdering the child within an hour or two afterwards. It`s a police tactic.
The police also accused her of making a call at 2:30 in the morning. The mother says the cell phones were disconnected. There was no way to make an outgoing call. If she knew that, she knew the police were playing with her. It may clam her up. I`m not saying it`s right. I`m not saying that she should stop talking to them because it`s very important to keep them involved and have them follow the leads and try and eliminate yourself as a subject if you`re not.
There are things here though as far as the police being called, they were called 12 minutes after the father got home and realized that the baby was missing. That`s significant. That`s showing -- that`s showing, "Oh my God, my baby is missing, let me call the police." From what I understand they ran to the neighbors first to see if the baby may have been there. That the neighbor may have taken the baby but that`s reasonable.
HILL: Now, you keep saying they`re not sophisticated. I get the sense that people on the East Coast whenever they hear people, you know talk a little slower or aren`t dressed quite as snazzy, go well, they`re not sophisticated. Again these are regular folks, so what makes them any different than anybody else.
ARNOLD: The answer to the question is in this particular case where Joe was saying I believe is that he was to see a good faith investigation. He`ll let them talk to the police as long as the police are talking to them in good faith. If you say, we want to talk to you because we want find your baby and we want to help you find your baby, that`s good faith.
But if in the back of your mind, we`re thinking you`re a person of interest and we think you did it. And we want to talk to you and we`re going to tell you it`s because we want to find this baby but if it`s really because we want to pin this on you. That`s not good faith, and that`s how they`re feeling. It`s not that they`re unsophisticated, it`s they`re probably feeling backs to the wall.
HILL: All right. We`re going to take a quick break. More on this right afterwards.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HILL: Well Baby Lisa`s mom, Deborah Bradley, raised a lot of eyebrows when she admitted that she was drunk and potentially even blacked out the night that her baby daughter went missing. This is how she defended herself on "Fox News", Monday. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DEBORAH BRADLEY, BABY LISA`S MOTHER: She was sleeping. You know I don`t see the problem with me having my grown-up time. I take good care of my kids. I keep my house clean. I do their laundry, I kiss their boo- boos, I fix them food, I`m involved in their school stuff. I mean to me, there`s nothing wrong with me doing what I want to do after dark.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HILL: I don`t know about you. I was just furious after I heard that. Maybe I`m being too judgmental. But I`m like, grown-up times doesn`t necessarily mean, especially if you`re a mom with a sleeping baby, that that means it`s a free pass to go get drunk and possibly black out. It drove me crazy.
Here to talk about this and tell me that I`m wrong: Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst and a marriage and family therapist and Rachael Brownell, author of "Mommy Doesn`t Drink Here Anymore" that book right there. Thanks both for joining us. Bethany --
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: Yes.
HILL: Is my reaction just out in the boonies?
MARSHALL: E.D., I happen to agree with you. This is a bad, bad mommy. And when I listened to this interview she says there`s nothing wrong with grown-up time. I hear all the characteristics of an addict, because that`s a rational -- a rationalization, right?
So what do addicts do, they rationalize, they have lack of insight into possible negative, destructive consequences to their action. They think nothing bad is going to happen. They feel victimized by the life and by the world. And this might be why we think that she needed to take a break from the interview processes, is that she felt victimized by the police.
But this mommy, after the fact, her baby is missing, possibly deceased, says there`s nothing wrong with grown-up times, she`s deep into her disease.
HILL: And that grown time equates with getting a box of wine and sitting there and drinking it until you possibly and you don`t even know for sure, may have blacked out.
Rachael, thank you for joining us because you really can help us, help me understand this other side and where this woman is coming from. You are so open and so frank in your book. What -- what is it about this mom that she is doing right now? Help me explain. You -- you say that you used to call yourself, what was it, cocktail momma?
RACHAEL BROWNELL, AUTHOR, "MOMMY DOESN`T DRINK HERE ANYMORE": Yes, definitely. And I understand, you know, I can certainly understand the -- the reaction that what the heck is she doing? Her baby is missing and she`s passed out and saying that`s ok because she also does laundry.
But, you know, I think it`s important to point out that grown-up times for many people just means it`s time to sit down and have a glass of tea and read a book or have one glass of wine or something. And I -- I think she`s using something that`s socially acceptable that sort of concept of you`re kids are in bed and you`re taking it easy. And kind of -- you know she does sound like she is rationalizing a little bit.
On the other hand, it`s always easy to pile on the mom in cases like this. And you know we don`t really know what was happening there and we don`t know the full story. I can tell you that it`s always a little more complicated than it first appears when it comes to moms and addiction.
HILL: And you -- you certainly -- you certainly understand that. Help -- help me understand.
(CROSSTALK)
MARSHALL: We are piling --
HILL: Yes, go ahead.
MARSHALL: We are piling on the mom because she says there is nothing wrong with grown-up time and her baby is missing. We`re not talking the fact that her baby just had a minor accident or toddler fell down and skinned its knees and now the child is in the hospital.
Her child is missing and she`s saying there is nothing wrong. That`s a very serious thing.
HILL: We`re watching the video right now of the store clip where she`s buying this box of wine that she then takes home.
Rachael --
BROWNELL: Right.
HILL: -- you know, she -- she -- clearly a woman who`s going through a lot in her life. She`s married.
BROWNELL: Right. Right.
HILL: Estranged from her husband. I believe that they are in the process of getting a divorce. She has a child by him. That child is living with her. Her boyfriend also has a child with another woman. That child is living with him. And now they have this child, the boyfriend and Bradley have this child together. There`s a lot on her plate.
BROWNELL: Sure.
HILL: Do women, I mean, help me understand how women like yourself just sort of find yourself kind of going down that path, where you don`t even realize it but all of a sudden, you`re drinking way too much.
BROWNELL: Well, and I -- I would like to respond to Bethany. I certainly understand, you know I certainly understand piling on the mom where the baby`s missing and she`s blacked out. That I get. And of course everyone -- everyone understand that; that`s why this is such a, you know, riveting story.
But what`s true for a lot of us, what was true for me, is that I started out as kind of a normal drinker, I could have a glass of wine a night. And it`s not like one day you wake up and you`re drinking a whole bottle and you see the whole progression.
HILL: Right.
BROWNELL: And of course there are warning signs. And I think the difference between someone in recovery from alcoholism and someone who is not is that series of denials. And they are either broken by a DUI or something terrible happened to your child or someone else does an intervention.
But a lot of us can go along, when everyone else can see that we have a problem, we don`t see it. And so it`s not just a moral you know it`s not a moral failing.
HILL: Yes.
BROWNELL: It`s an inability to see ourselves, because right we -- we used to drink normally and now we don`t and we don`t realize it.
HILL: Yes, Rachael that`s a very good point. Because I don`t think that there`s anybody who -- who goes to bed one night thinking I want to be an alcoholic when I wake up in the morning or I want to be a drug addict.
BROWNELL: Exactly, it sounds like great. Yes.
HILL: Yes but at the same time, Bethany there are lots of adults around here.
(CROSSTALK)
MARSHALL: Yes, where are the caretakers? Where is the family?
HILL: Right.
MARSHALL: Where are the grandparents during this time? We saw with Casey and George -- Cindy and George Anthony, that they preserved the child`s room hoping that the child would come home. This family has dismantled the child`s room. And I want to make a comment about the children. She said it was grown-up time.
We know that from studies of adult children of alcoholics that when children are around an adult who drinks too much, it`s enormously overwhelming and anxiety-producing for them and they grow into adults who take inordinate responsibility for everybody around them. They are control freaks. They can`t thrust anything that`s not under their control. And it`s a massive defense against the helplessness of childhood.
And I don`t think we can compare a mother who has a normal progression of drinking too much with this mom who clearly was binge drinking with benzodiazepines which caused a major black-out.
HILL: Bethany and Rachael, we have got to take a break. But you know, if you think that this is bad, you are going to -- not even believe your eyes, video that is hard to even understand. That`s coming up after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HILL: Welcome back. I`m rejoined by my panel, Bethany Marshall, a psychoanalyst and marriage and family therapist; and also Rachael Brownell, she`s the author of "Mommy Doesn`t Drink Here Anymore".
It`s shocking to me, Baby Lisa`s mom not the only drinking parent in the news. There is this Michigan dad -- here`s a video from it -- he`s facing child abuse charges after forcing his 9-year-old daughter to drive the van because he`s allegedly drunk in the passenger`s seat. And get this, right there, he`s in the convenience store buying the liquor, buying the cigarettes, telling the guy there, this is my designated driver, pointing to his 9-year-old daughter.
The guy at the convenience store doesn`t do a thing. It takes somebody who just happens to be outside and sees this to call the police and say, by the way, there`s a 9-year-old driving her dad around in a van. How can you even come close to understanding what`s going on here?
Bethany, tell me, why did it take a stranger rather than a store clerk to stop this guy or to call the police?
MARSHALL: Because the store clerk bought into the rationalization. We were talking about rationalizations before. This is the ultimate rationalization, this guy saying, he`s saying I`m not a bad guy for being drunk and out at 3:00 in the morning and relegating all the responsibility to my 9-year-old. I`m a good guy because I have now found a designated driver.
This guy is rearranging reality with his words. The store clerk bought into it, thank God the other driver called 911.
And you know one more thing real quickly. Children who are raised by alcoholics feel enormously helpless. And because of that, they defend against it by feeling useful and powerful and in charge. This little girl may have felt that she was protecting daddy. And that`s how he got her to do it.
HILL: I think that children of addicts in general are forced to grow up and take on roles that they are absolutely not prepared for.
Rachael though, here is this dad. The same thing with Bradley. She`s saying, I need my grown-up time. Clearly, she didn`t realize to herself or acknowledging to herself, that it`s just not acceptable and it`s not normal to get drunk and pass out when you`re at home with your kids.
But here`s this guy doing the same thing. What goes on in their mind. How do they not see what is so obvious?
BROWNELL: Well, this is late stage untreated alcoholism. This is what happens. And if you`re in recovery and you sit with people at meetings, these stories as horrible as they are, they happen time and time again because people are ill. Their minds are not clear. They`re addled with booze and drugs and God knows what else. And they cannot see straight and they cannot think clearly, which is why the courts get involved and they should.
But this is what late stage alcoholism looks like.
HILL: As I said, you wrote a very raw and honest book about this. When you were drunk with your kids, what was the worst thing that happened?
BROWNELL: I think, you know, we were talking earlier about, you know, rationalizations and what happens. And one of the things that broke through my denial was an afternoon, a summer afternoon I was watching the kids and I was having some wine spritzers. I turned my back and my little 2-year-old darling girl started to go under in the little pool. It`s a little kiddie pool but and she was spluttering.
My reaction time was so slow, you know, I pulled her out and she was coughing and she ended up being fine but that was one of those warning signs that told me, this is no longer ok. this is no longer mommy`s little grown-up time.
HILL: Yes. Ok. Rachael again, it`s a great book. It`s called "Mommy Doesn`t Drink Here Anymore". And Bethany Marshall, thank you both. Thank you for your time and helping us understand what really is truly out of the ordinary and almost incomprehensible. We`ll be right back.
BROWNELL: Thank you.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
JOY BEHAR, HOST: There are only a few families that are talked about as being Hollywood royalty. There are the Hustons, the Fondas, the Simpsons, Martin Sheen and his sons Charlie Sheen and Emilio Estevez are part of that conversation. And Emilio directs his dad Martin in the new movie "The Way." Let`s watch it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What was your son like?
MARTIN SHEEN, ACTOR: Daniel Starr (ph) has got nothing to do with any deal.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You have to explain why you`re riding (ph) a camino (ph), Tom. (inaudible).
SHEEN: So he`s a drunk American. Thanks.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I can read (inaudible) on the way, but I can`t imagine it would shed any light on who he was or what he meant to you.
SHEEN: He was my son. What do you think he meant to me?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: I`m happy to have the father and son team here with me, Emilio Estevez and Martin Sheen. Welcome to the show, you guys.
EMILIO ESTEVEZ, ACTOR/DIRECTOR: Thank you.
SHEEN: Thank you very much, Joy.
BEHAR: So the son directs the dad in this film. How did that work out?
SHEEN: Well, I didn`t have any choice in the matter. No. This guy is in a class by himself. And I`m delighted. This is the best part I`ve had in 30 years.
BEHAR: Really?
SHEEN: It`s the first time I carried a picture in 30 years. So--
BEHAR: You were in another film you directed, right?
SHEEN: We have done three together.
BEHAR: Three. What`s the third one?
ESTEVEZ: It`s the movie called "The War at Home," which four people saw.
SHEEN: And we were half of that.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: You like being a director, Emilio?
ESTEVEZ: I don`t mind telling him what to do for a couple of months. It`s --
SHEEN: Why should he be any different?
BEHAR: Everybody else does, right?
ESTEVEZ: No. It`s a joy. And I`m very close to my parents, literally, too. They live about a 9 iron away, maybe a one wood if you`re a good golfer. We`re very, very close.
BEHAR: You live right near each other?
ESTEVEZ: Same neighborhood.
BEHAR: In California?
ESTEVEZ: That`s right.
BEHAR: That`s nice. My daughter lives in my building. I like that. Why should you let them go? Hold them close.
SHEEN: As long as possible.
BEHAR: Exactly.
ESTEVEZ: So the movie is kind of an extension of that. We have this wonderful organic relationship. The idea of going off to make a film together is something that appealed to both of us.
SHEEN: And I was cheap and available.
BEHAR: Always two good things.
SHEEN: But you know, it started with his son, my grandson, Taylor.
BEHAR: How old is Taylor?
SHEEN: 27 now. But he was working for me on "The West Wing" as my assistant, and we had a break after the 2003 season. And so he and I were trying to do the camino with Matt Clark (ph), the guy who plays the rabbi/priest, which will be explained later. But the three of us, we were trying to do the camino in two weeks. We didn`t have enough time, of course. So we rented a car and we drove it. And when we got to Burgoss (ph), we stayed in this pension (ph) -- this refuge for pilgrims, and Taylor met his future life.
BEHAR: Really?
SHEEN: Yes, been married ever since, they`re married and happy as Larry. And that was the seed.
BEHAR: So they are living in Burgoss (ph)?
SHEEN: Yes, they`re living in Spain.
ESTEVEZ: So I figured if I want to spend some time with my son, I better do a movie there.
BEHAR: Yes.
SHEEN: And while you`re at it--
ESTEVEZ: He said, well, why don`t you write me a script, and while you`re at it, why don`t I play the lead? Yeah, what are you going to do? Again, he lives very close, so it`s I know you`re in there. You can`t hide.
SHEEN: How`s that scene coming along?
BEHAR: So the movie is about your spiritual journey, more or less. That`s the story. You had one in the previous part of the movie.
ESTEVEZ: That`s right.
BEHAR: But you`re the one who is on the spiritual journey.
SHEEN: Yes. He is.
BEHAR: And I`m just curious about a spiritual journey, what it means exactly. Because Steve Jobs was on a spiritual journey. He says that that`s what led him to be the incredible person that he became, and -- except he took a lot of drugs.
SHEEN: I didn`t know that.
BEHAR: Yes, that`s what I found out, he took hallucinogens. And so did George Harrison and the Beatles. So it seems like spiritual journey, drugs, they go together but not in this film.
SHEEN: Well, I think that people that go that route are seeking a transcendent experience. How often have you heard somebody under the influence of a drug say, I saw God. And I have not the slightest doubt that they have, but the apparition belongs to the substance. It doesn`t belong to them organically.
BEHAR: Right, that`s right.
SHEEN: So I think that we`re all seeking, whether we`re conscious or unconscious of it, we`re looking to unite the will of the spirit with the work of the flesh so that we`re even and we`re whole and balanced, and that`s what pilgrimage is.
BEHAR: But what`s the difference between a spiritual journey and a religious journey? What`s the difference?
SHEEN: Religiosity unfortunately because of dogma tends to divide us, but spirituality is the thing that gets through to everybody. It is absorbed and reflected in our humanity.
BEHAR: I see. So it`s about -- I understand it as getting to a point where you realize that you are an insignificant speck of dust on this planet, and that there is this vast universe out there, and you are nothing. You`re nothing.
SHEEN: On the contrary, you`re a direct reflection of that vast universe.
BEHAR: I see. All right. So -- but you are a devout Catholic, Martin, are you not?
SHEEN: I`m a practicing Catholic, and I will keep practicing until I get it right.
BEHAR: OK. But there`s a difference between being a devout Catholic and to be on a spiritual journey. First of all, there are no rules when you are on a spiritual journey, whereas in Catholicism, there are tons of rules.
I know that. I`ve been there myself. Are you a Catholic also?
ESTEVEZ: No. I`m not a practicing anything. I figure you know, I will stumble on it at some point. You know, but I think the film is the reflection of my journey. And I like to say that the proof is not just in the pudding, but it`s in the eating of the pudding. Right? And so I`m what my mom calls a work in progress.
BEHAR: You`re a work in progress?
ESTEVEZ: We all are.
SHEEN: I wish I could get off the hook that easy. Excuse me, I`m a work in progress. I wasn`t anticipating this theological discussion.
BEHAR: No, you weren`t?
ESTEVEZ: Can you be a work in progress at 70?
SHEEN: 71.
ESTEVEZ: 71.
SHEEN: Who`s counting?
BEHAR: And we`ll shout it from the rooftops.
You have another son. Now, you two seem to get along beautifully. Do you get along with your other sons? You have how many other sons? You have Charlie and who else?
SHEEN: Ramon.
BEHAR: And Ramon.
ESTEVEZ: And my sister Renee.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Ramon and Renee are not in the business?
SHEEN: Yes, they are. Renee played my secretary in the film.
BEHAR: Oh, that`s Renee. OK. OK now--
SHEEN: You weren`t available. We were looking for you, but unfortunately--
BEHAR: I`m a little busy. Now, Charlie is your other son. Charlie is older or younger than you are, Emilio?
ESTEVEZ: He`s younger, three years.
BEHAR: He`s younger than you. He`s been in the public eye a lot lately.
ESTEVEZ: No way? Has he?
SHEEN: Is that who they`ve been talking about?
BEHAR: Yes, he`s had--
ESTEVEZ: I thought it was weird. You know, he had the same last name and everything.
SHEEN: Oh, for heaven sakes.
ESTEVEZ: Weird.
BEHAR: I know, did you realize that was him?
ESTEVEZ: Just now.
BEHAR: But you know, I`ve been watching him and we talk about him here, because you know, with all his aggravation, he`s still funny. And it seems to me that since he did that roast, that he has sort of leveled out a little bit, and you know, he seems to be having fun with himself. In fact, we have a clip from the roast I`d like to show people.
SHEEN: I haven`t seen the roast now.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHARLIE SHEEN, ACTOR: I was going to the worst place in the world. Cable. Channel 745, I think. I don`t even really know what channel Comedy Central is, with HD and everything. They were going to give me a roast for this. And I`ve never even watched the channel.
SHEEN: Charlie! Get inside and wash your face. It`s past your bedtime.
C. SHEEN: Dad!
SHEEN: Now!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I thought you said this was your house?
SHEEN: Girls, time to go. Thank you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SHEEN: Now, that wasn`t part of the roast.
BEHAR: Well, it was a promo or something, right?
SHEEN: Yes.
BEHAR: But it`s kind of an homage to "Apocalypse Now" and Charlie`s--
SHEEN: He wrote that.
BEHAR: -- hot tub love of women in those hot tubs.
SHEEN: There you go.
BEHAR: So it was in the family where it`s always interesting, siblings. Because you know, I`m an only child myself, so I don`t -- the only competition I had was the dog. But did you feel competitive with your siblings, with Charlie, let`s say?
ESTEVEZ: Only on the ping-pong table.
BEHAR: Only on the ping-pong table.
ESTEVEZ: That`s it. We used to get in brutal, brutal arguments and outrageous competition on the games on the ping-pong table. That`s it. The only place we really competed.
BEHAR: Really? Because you know, sometimes families have, you know, I was the good son, he was the good-looking son, he was the smart one, I was -- you know what I mean. What`s your position with your siblings?
ESTEVEZ: I`m the favorite son.
BEHAR: You`re the favorite?
ESTEVEZ: Yes. Aren`t I right? That`s what momma always says. I`m the favorite.
SHEEN: I`ll say nothing.
BEHAR: You`ll say nothing, you being the good dad here. But anyway, just to wrap up Charlie. I think he`s doing pretty well.
ESTEVEZ: He is. He showed up to our screening at AARP a couple of weeks ago, we had a big, you know, the AARP convention. I`m sure you were invited.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: I`m much too young for AARP.
SHEEN: Were you in the roast? We didn`t see it. We`ve been on a bus tour across America promoting the film the last six weeks. And honest to God, we were rolling out of Dayton, Ohio, my home town, on our way to Cleveland, my wife`s hometown while all of that was going down, so we didn`t have a clue. And I`m a -- Luddite, what do you call it?
ESTEVEZ: A Luddite.
SHEEN: So I have no computer, so I don`t have any clue how that`s done.
BEHAR: Really? No kidding? You don`t have e-mail?
SHEEN: I don`t have a clue how that`s done.
BEHAR: It`s very nice to have. You should try it. You can communicate with people without talking to them.
ESTEVEZ: He still does handwritten letters to fans.
BEHAR: Does he use a quill?
(LAUGHTER)
ESTEVEZ: You know what? Do you?
SHEEN: Come on. I just -- I confess, I took two courses and I failed, and they were very polite and issued me out the door. I was giving them a bad name, you know? But that`s OK.
BEHAR: OK, we`re going to have more with the fabulous Sheen boys in just a minute. So stay right there.
SHEEN: No, we`re not.
BEHAR: Yes, we are.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHEEN: I left something for you on the desk. Just some random thoughts.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I look forward to them, sir.
SHEEN: Make me proud, Mr. President.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`ll do my best, Mr. President.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: That was the great Martin Sheen as President Josiah Bartlet on "The West Wing," and he`s back with me along with his son, Emilio Estevez.
I love that you`re Spanish on one side and Sheen on the other. It`s so confusing.
SHEEN: My real name is Ramon Estevez. My father was a gallego (ph) from --
(CROSSTALK)
SHEEN: A gallego (ph) from Galicia, which is very near Santiago de Compostello (ph), to get back to the film.
BEHAR: Where the spiritual journey took place.
SHEEN: Where the spiritual journey began and our discussion of theology.
BEHAR: Yes. And the mother, you`re on your mother`s side?
SHEEN: Mary-Anne Phelan from Borrisokane County Tipperary, Ireland. Yes.
BEHAR: What a combo, huh?
SHEEN: Oh, God, I adored them.
BEHAR: It`s a nice mixture.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: I like the way you say Galicia.
SHEEN: Galicia.
BEHAR: Is it true the reason they speak like that in Castallan (ph), isn`t it Catalan language?
SHEEN: No, it`s Galician.
BEHAR: Galician, they say they have a lisp because the king of Spain lisped at one point?
ESTEVEZ: That`s right, and the people had to mimic it.
BEHAR: And so they had to imitate him. It`s like when the president is stupid, everyone has to be stupid. It`s like that.
Now, you, speaking of politics, you and I, believe it or not, your family and I are on a list, a top 10 list together. You want to know what it`s for?
SHEEN: Please.
BEHAR: We`re both on the same list. It`s for the top ten most obnoxious Hollywood liberals. Now, I`m not even a Hollywood liberal, but you and I -- I`m number 9 and you are, the Sheens are number 10.
ESTEVEZ: It`s collective, it`s all of us?
BEHAR: It just says the Sheens, the entire family.
SHEEN: So that excludes the Estevezes.
(CROSSTALK)
SHEEN: It`s just the Sheens, it`s just Charlie and me. You`re off the hook.
BEHAR: It`s just Charlie and Martin.
ESTEVEZ: Thank God I use my real name.
SHEEN: See, I told you.
BEHAR: See how you did that. That was smart of you.
SHEEN: Obnoxious Hollywood liberal. How extraordinary.
ESTEVEZ: Yeah. Interesting.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Me, too.
SHEEN: And what are we obnoxious about?
BEHAR: Well, this is a website called Human Events, which is a conservative website.
SHEEN: I see. Well, there are advantages not to owning a computer or knowing how to use it.
BEHAR: Except unfortunately you came here, so that I could tell this to you.
SHEEN: Ah-ha.
BEHAR: But you have been political your entire career. You`ve been arrested, I found out, 50 times in your career.
SHEEN: No. It`s a little more. But who`s counting?
ESTEVEZ: 67, 68?
SHEEN: 67.
BEHAR: Tell me about it.
SHEEN: Well, I was trying to keep up with my age, but I`ve been very busy lately and I haven`t had a chance to focus on social justice issues. But seriously, yes, no, you know, I`m a practicing Catholic, which means I am going to continue until I get it right. I said that before. Didn`t I? I`ll say it again.
So, you know, I believe that we are called to social justice. We`re called to speak for the marginalized and the voiceless, and we are called to risk, you know, something if the -- how shall I say this? If your faith is worth something, it has got to cost you something. Otherwise you`re left to question its value. So my faith commands that I make my presence known and speak truth to power, and to become involved with social justice issues. So that`s what I`ve done for the last 30 years.
BEHAR: So when you speak for the underdog and for social justice, they call you a liberal. That seems to be--
SHEEN: They call me a lot worse than that.
BEHAR: That seems to be a good thing. Why do they make it that you are obnoxious?
SHEEN: I don`t know. I have never met these people. Maybe they know something I don`t.
BEHAR: They just don`t agree with us. That`s what--
SHEEN: Well, no one agrees with me. He doesn`t agree with me.
ESTEVEZ: I get the call and it`s my mom and she says, turn on channel 4. He`s at it again. He`s going away. Do you want to bail him out this time or should I? Ah, someone else will take care of it. I have got something else to do. I`m folding cardboard.
BEHAR: Does it make you feel somewhat heartened that there`s this Wall Street occupation going on and it seems to be a grassroots movement on the left now to express their discomfort and their aggravation with Wall Street and the way this country is going?
SHEEN: Absolutely. People have an expression and a place and a point. And they have a lot of reason to gather there and to raise their voice against these scoundrels.
BEHAR: And now that the Bank of America is now charging people to use their own debit cards, people are just -- that was like what they called the tipping point. I think that really did it.
So "The West Wing" was an interesting program. A lot of people used to call it the left wing. Did you ever hear it?
SHEEN: It sounds familiar. Yes.
BEHAR: And interestingly enough, it was very popular during the Bush administration?
SHEEN: Go figure.
BEHAR: Why do you suppose?
SHEEN: Go figure. I`m saying.
BEHAR: Why do you think?
SHEEN: Go figure.
(LAUGHTER)
SHEEN: It was Aaron Sorkin, frankly. You know, there was a very, very brilliant young man with an extraordinary wit and talent. He was the best writer going. And he was saying it like it was or like he thought it should be, or what was possible.
He fused a parallel universe, if you will, to the reality. But it was hard to tell which might be the real one.
BEHAR: I also -- Allison Janney was on my show here, and she said that when the show was running during the Clinton administration, the staff was invited to the White House. But when it was the Bush administration, you were no longer invited to the White House. Is that true?
SHEEN: This is true, this is true, sister woman. I was included in that disinvitation.
BEHAR: That`s interesting to me, that they wouldn`t invite you. I mean, I would think they would want to show they were, you know, unthreatened by the show.
SHEEN: Well, look, you know, with all due respect, you want to talk a little bit about that administration and some of the things that they might have considered doing?
BEHAR: To your show?
SHEEN: Well, no, to themselves?
BEHAR: Oh.
SHEEN: All right. So this, you know, during the Gulf War, which we all opposed, that is we on the West Wing and many of my colleagues in the community, there were a group of girls in London, they were called the Dixie Chicks.
BEHAR: Oh, yes.
SHEEN: They said something to the effect that they were ashamed of being from the same state as the president. And as a result, they took a tremendous bashing, and they were threatened. Gigs were canceled, they had to hire bodyguards. Some stations were burning their records. It was awful. They were taking a terrible public beating. It was frightening.
Now, if you`re in that inner circle with Mr. Bush, you might consider saying to the president, sir, you know, you really got the upper hand here, but may I suggest, sir, that you invite these girls to a barbecue next Saturday at the ranch? And you`ll probably get a rejection, and you can say, never mind, I`m going to play their music because I love their music and they`re free to say whatever they like. Now, that`s strength, that`s confidence.
BEHAR: He didn`t do that.
OK, now when we come back, I want--
SHEEN: That`s why I`m an obnoxious liberal.
BEHAR: And proud of it.
When we come back, I want to ask both of you about Obama now. Because--
SHEEN: I adore him.
BEHAR: OK.
SHEEN: You don`t have to go anywhere. I`ll talk about him right now.
BEHAR: We`ll take a break. He`s getting hot, but we only have a few minutes left. So don`t go away.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with Emilio Estevez and his dad, Martin Sheen. Their new movie is called "The Way."
So you know, some liberals now like Matt Damon, and Michael Moore, and among others, are bashing Obama a bit. They`re saying they`re not happy with what he`s done. Where do you come out on that?
SHEEN: Steady.
BEHAR: Steady.
SHEEN: Steady. Now you`re talking about a very special man, you know. I adore him. And I think he`s doing a great job. I don`t think he`s getting a lot of help, but he`s done a great job.
BEHAR: Well, they`ve been criticizing him mercilessly because the economy has not come back. He`s been in office for two years. Things are not moving along. People are still out of work. Again, there was another increase in unemployment today.
SHEEN: But have they focused on the real problem? You know, what about corporate America sharing some of its profits, investing back in the country, you know? They talk about patriotism. They`re more interested in profit. You know. That`s where the problem lies. It`s corporate America. And they`re the first ones to complain about the big business and regulations, and they`re the first ones to come crawling to them demanding to be rescued.
BEHAR: You noticed that?
SHEEN: I noticed that.
BEHAR: On their hands and knees. And then they don`t want to give the money back.
SHEEN: They don`t want to do it.
ESTEVEZ: Keeping the jobs at home. And that`s really what it is. And it was for me to take a movie to Spain was something that I had to really think about, because I`m an advocate of keeping jobs, especially in the entertainment business, keeping them in California, where the film business, you know, thrives, or did for many years.
BEHAR: So why did you go to Spain?
ESTEVEZ: Well, I had to, because this is a movie that takes place on the Camino de Santiago. We couldn`t really shoot that on the Appalachian trail.
SHEEN: Although that may be our next project.
ESTEVEZ: That`s the sequel. But yes, I really had to meditate on that. And I -- it was tough to take a film out of the country.
BEHAR: I think that once the manufacturing jobs started going to China and the rest of the world, we really got screwed. And I don`t really know what`s going to -- how they`re going to get that back.
(CROSSTALK)
SHEEN: Yes, but there`s enough dough, come on, there`s enough dough. If it were reinvested, if they would stop being so critical of the unions and stop trying to destroy organized labor, you know, that`s what saved this country in World War II, it was the middle class.
BEHAR: Is there a Bobby Kennedy out there, do you think?
SHEEN: There`s a Bobby Kennedy Jr.
BEHAR: Yes, there`s a Jr. But is there a person of that stature that you talked about in your film? I mean --
ESTEVEZ: Yes, haven`t seen him.
SHEEN: No.
BEHAR: You haven`t seen him yet?
SHEEN: Not in public life.
BEHAR: President Obama so far.
SHEEN: He`s the only one. He`s still the only adult in the room, frankly.
BEHAR: And the smartest guy.
SHEEN: Smartest guy.
BEHAR: OK. Well, you can see "The Way" in theaters nationwide. It was so lovely to have you two here. I enjoyed very much. Did you have a good time?
SHEEN: We did.
ESTEVEZ: Here or on the film?
BEHAR: Both. Both. Did you feel that the interview was a spiritual journey for you?
ESTEVEZ: It was.
SHEEN: It still is, Joy.
BEHAR: Because I feel that it was. And that was without drugs. OK. Thank you for watching out there. Good night, everybody.
END
