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Piers Morgan Live
Interview with Kelsey Grammer; Interview With Hillary Duff
Aired October 22, 2011 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PIERS MORGAN, HOST: Everybody knows his name.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KELSEY GRAMMER, ACTOR/PRODUCER: Sometimes it's "Hey, Frasier." But more often than not, it's "Hey, Kelsey."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: Kelsey Grammer is a star of not one but two of the most successful sitcoms of all time. Now, the man behind Dr. Frasier Crane.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GRAMMER: Kelsey Grammer is a guy who has been trying to save the world because he couldn't save some things in his own life.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: Kelsey Grammer, his highs --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GRAMMER: With cocaine, it was too much for me. It brought me to my knees eventually.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: -- his lows and what he really thinks of his ex-wife.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GRAMMER: "The Real Housewives" was my parting gift to her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: Plus, Hilary Duff, actress --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HILARY DUFF, ACTRESS: Hi.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: -- recording artist, author, and a possibly a bad girl. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: It slipped my halo.
DUFF: No, I really don't want to bring that up again.
MORGAN: How bad was it?
DUFF: You can Google it.
MORGAN: Save me the time.
DUFF: I don't know you that well.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: A child star all grown up.
This is PIERS MORGAN TONIGHT.
(MUSIC)
MORGAN: Kelsey Grammer is one of the most talked about, one of the most famous, one of the most beloved faces in American television history. And I'm pleasant to say he joins me now.
You are really, aren't you? You're sort of been part of the American television consciousness for so long. You must walk around the street and everyone goes, "Hey, Kelsey." Everyone must think they know you.
GRAMMER: Well, those things do happen. Those events do take place. Sometimes it's, "Hey, Frasier," but more often than not, it's, "Hey, Kelsey."
MORGAN: Do you like it? Did you like the kind of mass attention you must still get? Or Jewish, you know, I've done it, I just want to just go and --
GRAMMER: It's always -- it's always pleasant. It's always flattering. It's always meant in an optimistic kind of affectionate way. So, I take it that way and return the compliment actually.
MORGAN: You enjoy the status of television icon?
GRAMMER: Sure.
(LAUGHTER)
GRAMMER: I've be a fool to say I didn't.
MORGAN: I would.
GRAMMER: Yes.
MORGAN: Let's be honest with you. Odd thing about you -- and I mean this in the best sense -- is that I don't think I've ever had an American television star sit here who openly admits to being a Republican.
GRAMMER: Oh, well, you know?
MORGAN: You're that guy.
GRAMMER: I'm that guy.
(LAUGHTER)
MORGAN: And I think musicians --
GRAMMER: There are a few, yes.
MORGAN: I don't think I've ever had a TV person. Normally the world of television is just infused with liberals -- and most movie stars, I'd say.
GRAMMER: Yes, I think you're right about that. I'm a bit of a rebel. I don't tend to warm too well to people that tell me how I'm supposed to think. So, my life in Hollywood, I'm afraid I was destined to be a Republican.
MORGAN: How does it go down with all your famous friends?
GRAMMER: Well, some of my --
MORGAN: Is it lonely out there?
GRAMMER: It's pretty lonely, but you know they seem to tolerate me somehow, because I can at least state myself eloquently and without actually kind of assuming what they -- the veneer of what they assume is what a Republican is, as some kind of nasty, strange villain that, you know, should be vilified and hated.
MORGAN: It's obvious that has become the way Republicanism is now perceived in this country. You know, you are either extremely with them, with all that appears to entail, or you're completely against them. But what they are -- they're very divisive. To say you're a Republican now divides people immediately.
GRAMMER: Right.
MORGAN: It didn't used to be like that. You go back 30 years, it wasn't like that.
GRAMMER: Well, the tone of political assessment has changed. You know, and honestly, the battle for the hearts and the minds of the American people has taken on a bit more of a violent and narrow approach. I mean, you have to actually make sure that nobody swallows anything of what you are in order to ensure that you get their vote. So it's very easy to understand why you'd want to make somebody hateful.
MORGAN: And quite interesting, Kelsey, because as you say, people I guess see you as a comic actor. You were born in the Virgin Islands. You grew up in Florida. At 18, you leave the family in Florida and you come to New York. You go to the Juilliard School, very prestigious acting school.
So, you did do the hard yards of theatrical trainings, didn't you, to be a serious actor?
GRAMMER: Yes. For a couple of years and then they kicked me out.
MORGAN: Did you ever imagine at that stage, at Juilliard, you're looking around, all these talented people presumably -- did you ever imagine in your wildest dreams or maybe nightmares the level of fame that you would one day get through acting?
GRAMMER: No. It's funny. There was something -- I did believe that I was going to be successful as an actor. And I did realize that if you're successful as an actor, it might come along with, you know, fringe benefits, I guess, or you know peripheral anxieties.
MORGAN: Stage acting is kind of great because you go out every night and you get instant reaction from an audience. It's normally pretty good. If you're in a good play or whatever it may be, a good musical, they're cheering you -- and you go off and you feel fantastic.
The worst thing about television, I think, is the terrible wait. You know you make all this stuff, I've made shows and they take months to make.
GRAMMER: Yes.
MORGAN: And then there's this terrible buildup. And in the back of your mind all you're thinking of is this could tank, and then what?
GRAMMER: Yes. Well, I've had that experience, too.
MORGAN: I mean "Frasier" like "Cheers," I mean, they were just phenomenal shows.
GRAMMER: Very good shows.
MORGAN: Hysterically popular, global shows.
When you first started making them, did you get an inkling early on, OK, this is going to be huge, it's going to change my life? Or did it just happen?
(LAUGHTER)
GRAMMER: I'll tell you a story that David Hyde Pierce has repeated. After we shot the pilot, we got a standing ovation and everything went away. And we all felt pretty good about it.
And he said to me, "So what do you think? What does this mean?" And I said, "For you? It means you're going to buy a really nice house."
And then he said, "Well, what does it mean for you?" I said, "It means I'm probably going to buy a couple."
(LAUGHTER) GRAMMER: You do have a sense -- you know when you know. You can tell. And there's a beauty about releasing it to the public, to just saying, OK, here it is. Love it or hate it. We did our best.
Kelsey, when I researched your life for this interview, I could almost at times barely believe what I was reading about the stuff that's happened to you, the really bad stuff. I mean, most people go through life and they have, you know, a bit of trauma along the way.
And I've apologized in advance for going through this in almost like a list form, but when I read that your parents divorced when you were 2, your father who you had barely seen since then was shot and killed.
In 1975, your younger sister Karen was abducted, raped and murdered. She was 18. In 1980, your younger twin half-brothers died in a scuba diving accident. In 2001, a close friend, the producer of "Frasier," David Angell, he died in the 9/11 attacks.
You know, I got to the end of this and I didn't know, to be honest with you, how you had even come through that. I don't know how any human being comes through that kind of thing.
I mean, put it in some kind of overall context for me, to be hit by so much tragedy.
GRAMMER: Yes. Well, you know, we touched on it a little bit before, though I was being general. And one that's really important is my granddad died, too, when I was 12. That was -- he raised me. That was the -- that was the big impact until my sister was killed, of course.
That one just seemed like an absurd topping on the situation that I thought was just impossible.
And it was that incident that sort of propelled me into a -- at least a phase. I mean, I lost faith. I lost my -- when I was a boy, I had this -- it's sort of like that old Walt Whitman poem about, you know, everything a boy saw he became.
I had a love affair with the universe, with a blade of grass, with a rising sun. I went surfing. I mean, I used to surf all the time when I was a kid. And my life was a joy. It was a joyful experience. It was -- it was full of sort of affirmation and encouragement, and I loved being alive. And I was consciously in love with being alive.
And then these deaths took place. You know, these deaths occurred. And when I lost Gordon, I went very quiet for a long time. That's my granddad.
And I didn't really speak to anybody for a couple of months.
MORGAN: He'd been the father figure.
GRAMMER: He was my father, yes, basically. And when I finally sat one night -- this is in Ft Lauderdale where we had moved. And I got this overwhelming sense that I was just going to be alone for the rest of my life, which made me kind of sad. And when I was 18, I packed it all up and went up to Julliard to, you know, find my fortune, whatever.
But it was that year -- two years later, actually -- when Karen was killed, that, you know, sent me into kind of a tailspin. And it was a horrible nightmare for her. I mean, it was. The three young men that abducted her, raped her repeatedly, said that she would, you know, maybe they'd let her go. You know there some more documentation about what happened.
And I being the big brother I'd always been thought that I had some responsibility for that. And that haunted me for -- well, at least 20 years, that notion.
MORGAN: It makes so much more sense to me, the kind of slightly chaotic relationships that you had and the kind of -- the dissent into drugs and alcohol and so on. It all makes much more sense when you understand --
GRAMMER: Sure.
MORGAN: -- what you've been through.
GRAMMER: Yes. I think --
MORGAN: I -- it doesn't surprise me.
GRAMMER: Yes. I think after the success came, you know, Robin -- Robin Williams had that great saying about saying cocaine is God's way of telling you you're making too much money.
MORGAN: You trained with him at the Julliard, didn't he?
GRAMMER: Yes, we were together in school. But once success came, I think what really compounded my difficulties in dealing with some of that was simply that I didn't feel like I was worth it. Like I didn't deserve that kind of success, that kind of reward, that kind of -- well, what you say about me. You know, this popular face on television.
I'm OK with it now.
(LAUGHTER)
MORGAN: But is part of that because you've managed to deal with so many of the demons that you carry?
GRAMMER: Yes. There was a self-loathing about it that came into play and it was easier to run away from it.
And -- but there was also the intoxicating, innervating, you know, charge of getting high and having fun. And I actually -- and there was even the kind of mythology of being a Hollywood actor. You know, this Errol Flynn and some of the big drinkers of the past, you know?
MORGAN: Is it mythological? Or is actually you know, if you think about it, is there actually a reality to this? I mean, you were earning squillions. You did have the big houses, you had the fast cars, you had the beautiful women.
I mean, for a while, it must be fun, isn't it? Despite everything else.
GRAMMER: Absolutely.
MORGAN: It's only when it eventually -
GRAMMER: I would be a fool to tell you I wasn't having a good time.
MORGAN: Yes, I always think when people go through all this and they say, oh, it was all terrible.
GRAMMER: Yes.
MORGAN: I think, no it wasn't!
GRAMMER: No, not at all.
MORGAN: If it was that bad, you wouldn't have been doing it.
GRAMMER: Cocaine -- it was too much for me. It brought me to my knees, eventually. And honestly, that's really what happened and --
MORGAN: What was the -- what was the wake up moment for you?
GRAMMER: Well, there were -- there were several along the way, where I just -- you know, I'd sit there and say, I've got to stop. This has got to stop.
But it's hard to do that with cocaine, it's really -- it's insidious and it's wonderful. That's the problem.
MORGAN: How did you manage to stop in the end?
GRAMMER: Well, actually, I did go to Betty Ford, and that helped.
It was a -- and the best thing that they said, actually, was -- "How's it been working for you?" That's what I thought. And then, they said, "Well, you know, you spent a month here, and maybe you'll figure out a way to do things a little differently."
And, honestly, that's really what was a turning point in terms of me being able to take charge of my life again, because I mean, I do -- I do all kinds of things. I still have a wonderful, fun kind of approach to life. I do not -- I don't do cocaine any more.
MORGAN: Do you drink alcohol?
GRAMMER: I have a drink sometimes, yes.
MORGAN: You can drink in moderation?
GRAMMER: Yes, yes. But you have to be every mindful that, you know, you had a relationship with it in the past that did cause some trouble, so you have, you know, to be careful.
MORGAN: We're going to have another break. Come back and talk about how you got back on your feet. And also just dabble slightly in marriage and divorce.
GRAMMER: OK.
MORGAN: Because you are something of an expert in this area, Kelsey.
(LAUGHTER)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MORGAN: Back with Kelsey Grammer.
Kelsey, let's talk -- let's talk love, marriage, and divorce.
GRAMMER: All right.
MORGAN: I don't really mind what order you do it in, but -- but you already I think explained in a very, I think, profound way, why you think you drifted into -- I guess what turned out to be inappropriate relationships. But at the time maybe didn't seem so inappropriate.
Did you struggle for a long time to have any meaningful relationship because of all the drugs, the partying, and everything else? Was it all inconsequential at the time? How did it feel to you?
GRAMMER: It's interesting. I spent, oh, maybe about eight years not really settling down with anybody, kind of having, you know, peripheral relationship with people. I was mostly focused on acting, trying to get a job, doing some work.
And then, when I came to New York, I met a girl. I was 28 years old, and I thought, you know, I'm tired of this. I actually want to settle down and I want to have a child. I thought, I'd like to start a family.
So, I met my first wife.
MORGAN: Doreen.
GRAMMER: Doreen. And it went -- it went pretty poorly.
MORGAN: Yes. And this lasted -- well, it last a while.
GRAMMER: About a year.
MORGAN: Yes.
GRAMMER: But it -- well, this -- it took a long time to get divorced, which is interesting. I was in a five-year divorce, I think.
MORGAN: You had a great daughter, Spencer.
GRAMMER: We had a fantastic child, Spencer. MORGAN: So, that was a --
GRAMMER: It was wonderful, yes.
MORGAN: Now, it's your second marriage that really starts -- this starts to really deteriorate.
GRAMMER: Right.
MORGAN: So, you married the stripper --
GRAMMER: Leigh-Anne.
MORGAN: Leigh-Anne Csuhany.
GRAMMER: Csuhany.
MORGAN: Csuhany.
GRAMMER: Csuhany, yes.
MORGAN: In 1992. And that lasted a year.
GRAMMER: That was a year.
MORGAN: Lots of allegations of abuse, she fired a gun at you, there was talk of divorce, she attempted suicide. This was "The National Enquirer" for real.
GRAMMER: Oh, it was horrible, yes. It was horrible.
MORGAN: Did she fire a gun at you?
GRAMMER: That was another night. That was before I married her.
(LAUGHTER)
MORGAN: You married her after she shot at you?
GRAMMER: Yes, no, this is the -- this is what --
MORGAN: Wasn't that a warning sign, get off it?
GRAMMER: I tell you, it was absurdly across -- a shot across the bow.
MORGAN: A woman shoots at me, I'm thinking twice about the marriage, you know?
GRAMMER: So that fell apart pretty quickly. And then I met my third wife. And what's funny is, I didn't see the -- I didn't see the similarities at first, but all the same impulses came up about, oh, I could really help her. I can -- you know, I can --
MORGAN: This is Camille.
GRAMMER: Yes. I can -- I can save her, give her some sort of refuge. And I think, in the long run -- I mean, it's difficult to have anybody hear this, but I think -- it wasn't really a relationship based upon love. It was a relationship based upon appearances.
And it was good for me to basically -- you know, at least try to settle down and have a normal relationship. And so I -- I sort of dedicated myself to that without realizing that I -- I needed to have a profound love to really pull that off. And so --
MORGAN: And what was bizarre about the whole thing was it was all being played out on television sometimes.
GRAMMER: Everything was playing out on television.
MORGAN: She was in the "Real Housewives of Beverly Hills," and so you would pop in and out. And the whole kind of unraveling of that marriage --
GRAMMER: Right.
MORGAN: -- was laid -- there was, I would imagine for you, who's always run away from that kind of attention --
GRAMMER: Right.
MORGAN: -- on your private life. This must have been like hell, wasn't it?
GRAMMER: Well, I have to -- I mean, I have to tell you, my -- "The Real Housewives" was my parting gift to her. Now, whether or not it worked well for her doesn't matter. It was my way of saying, "Look, you always wanted to be famous. Here you go."
Everybody knows that reality shows are not particularly a great way to be famous, I mean -- but, you know what? You still get attention. You still get all those things that come along for the ride, which I think is what she was most interested in.
And that was the gift. And I knew that when it came up, we'd be saying good-bye. I mean, I remember having one conversation where I said, "Well, don't worry about it. After the first season, you can do the 'Divorced Wives of Beverly Hills' next season."
MORGAN: You weren't really joking.
GRAMMER: No, I wasn't.
MORGAN: I mean, the strange thing is at one stage quite early on in the marriage, you said this. You said that Camille was the most profound, the most rewarding, the most honest relationship of your life. That it was love at first sight for you.
GRAMMER: No, I think -- I think what I was trying to do was sell it to myself. You know? Knowing that I didn't really have many more chances at something like that, in my mind. And I thought that this was the -- this was the kind of relationship I should try to have.
And it just -- there was the still, small voice in the back of my head saying, this isn't going to work. But I stuck to it.
MORGAN: How are things between you now? Because you've got two children. It's been, to put it mildly, messy. And you've pretty well-kept your dignified counsel. But -- I mean, how are things?
GRAMMER: Well, they're not good.
MORGAN: Do you have any kind of dialogue with her?
GRAMMER: We have no contact, no. There have been some very unfortunate incidents, public incidents, with the -- in front of the children. Stuff like that we'd like to -- I'd like to avoid. There're been some -- some attacks on Kayte, which aren't particularly interesting.
But I guess -- you know, people say all kinds of things. But none of those are true, and we've had some -- some difficult moments. The only thing that I've ever really wanted was to try to work out something that would be nice for the kids. But --
MORGAN: How is your relationship with them?
GRAMMER: Oh, it's great.
MORGAN: Do you get --
GRAMMER: The kids are fantastic.
MORGAN: You get plenty of access?
GRAMMER: Well, they're trying to -- they're doing their best to actually kind of make that difficult for me right now. Well, here's the thing. Listen, Camille asked for a divorce really almost the first day we were married. And it stayed that way for a long time.
And I'd give a piece of advice to women who say, "I want a divorce," as some sort of tactic. Because if you say, "I want a divorce" enough times, you're going to get one.
MORGAN: Do you think she married you because you were Kelsey Grammer, TV icon?
GRAMMER: No, I think she married me because I was Frasier.
MORGAN: Really?
GRAMMER: I think it was Frasier. He had this great, wonderful life. He was stylish and --
MORGAN: Great personality.
GRAMMER: -- all that stuff, just a little gay, who knew, you know?
(LAUGHTER)
GRAMMER: And he was -- he was famous. You know, Kelsey Grammer was a different story. You got home, and Kelsey Grammer was somebody different. And been a lot of -- she said quite a few ugly things, and -- it's not so bad that she says them publicly, but I know that what happens is, she's actually saying them in front of the kids at home.
MORGAN: What's been worst thing, the most hurtful thing she said about you?
GRAMMER: Well, you know, I haven't been keeping track of everything, so there might be something that would surprise me.
MORGAN: But if there's one that you think about now, what is the thing that really stung you? What do you hate being called the most? What's the most unfair labeling?
GRAMMER: She once said that I didn't want my daughter. That pissed me off.
MORGAN: Yes, well, it would, wouldn't it?
GRAMMER: Yes. And --
MORGAN: Because the one thing --
GRAMMER: -- not true.
MORGAN: -- that I can sense with you is, you're a very committed father.
GRAMMER: Yes.
MORGAN: You know, you've been a fairly hopeless husband --
GRAMMER: Yes.
MORGAN: -- from time to time with the various wives, and some of them have been pretty useless wives. But you've, throughout it, been a very conscientious --
GRAMMER: Always.
MORGAN: -- loving father.
GRAMMER: Yes.
MORGAN: So, that kind of thing must really hurt you.
GRAMMER: Yes. The thing that she said that hurt me the most that I think hurt both Kayte and me, actually, was the thing about our lost -- the child we lost. And --
MORGAN: Because Kayte was pregnant --
GRAMMER: Something about it --
MORGAN: -- earlier this year.
GRAMMER: Yes, something about it being karma. And --
MORGAN: Because that's just a vicious thing to say.
GRAMMER: It's just disgusting. So I guess that's all I have to say.
MORGAN: Let's have a break. Let's just make things happier, here. Let's bring things up to current day and to your new wife, Kayte. You finally went British. As I said at the start of this interview, if you'd just gone British earlier, Kelsey --
GRAMMER: Yes.
MORGAN: -- you could've saved yourself a lot of aggravation.
GRAMMER: Yes.
(LAUGHTER)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GRAMMER AS FRASIER CRANE, "CHEERS": You all think I'm just an old slipper? Well? Am a good boy? Would a good boy do this?
(LAUGHTER)
GRAMMER AS FRASIER: I am running with scissors!
(LAUGHTER)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: The brilliant "Cheers," of course, from Paramount again.
"Cheers" is appropriate, really, because we've come to that moment in the interview where things take a happy turn.
You're on a flight to New York -- from England? Where are you flying?
When you meet Kayte?
GRAMMER: When I met Kayte? I was on a flight to England.
MORGAN: To England from New York?
GRAMMER: From Los Angeles.
MORGAN: From Los Angeles?
GRAMMER: Yes.
MORGAN: And it's a Virgin Atlantic flight. She's --
GRAMMER: Virgin Atlantic flight.
MORGAN: She's a stewardess -- one of Richard Branson's beautiful stewardesses.
GRAMMER: Yes.
MORGAN: Now, I've been on many flights, and there've been many beautiful stewardesses, particularly with Virgin Atlantic. None of them has given me a second look.
GRAMMER: Right.
MORGAN: What was it about you on this flight? What magic did you weave?
GRAMMER: Well, you know what?
MORGAN: Because Kayte is a very beautiful young lady, as we can see here.
GRAMMER: I'm going to need to set the stage just a little bit. I'd had a heart attack three years ago. It was after the heart attack, about a month after the heart attack, my mother died, and I had a just a horrible day with the ex -- threatening divorce again and screaming about how it was all over, and I thought my mother just died. What's wrong with you?
And I suddenly realized -- and I've said this before to a press person, and they actually said -- I'll say it first. I said -- I said to myself in my head, I looked at my life, and I thought, is this the last story you want your life to tell? And I said no.
Now, granted, it took me another two years. But about a year and a half after that moment, Camille started seeing somebody, and I even encouraged it. I thought, you know what? Go find your happiness, because you are not happy with me. And that's where I was.
And I was doing that show. I got this phone call, "Are you interested in playing George in 'La Cage Aux Folles'? Come to England and see what you think of the production."
And I knew the minute I got that phone call that my life was going to change completely, and that I was -- that something else was happening.
And when I walked through LAX, I spotted a girl --
MORGAN: It's like a movie script.
GRAMMER: It was amazing. I spotted a girl who just looked to me to be magnificent. And it wasn't just that she was attractive or that she had, you know, obvious assets.
(LAUGHTER)
GRAMMER: There was a warmth, a glow about her that I was drawn to. And I thought, Boy, I hope she's on my flight. And when we got on the plane, she sort of walked down the other aisle, and I went, Oh, she's there. I hope she's, like, working on my side of the plane. And then there was this one moment when we sort of smiled at each other. And I thought, I've got to talk to her. And so we started talking...
MORGAN: Did she know who you were?
GRAMMER: Oh, I think she knew who I was, but she didn't know who I am.
MORGAN: Yes.
(LAUGHTER)
GRAMMER: I found her so charming and warm and interesting and lovely, and I guess there was a sort of freshness about my persona at the time that was attractive enough to her to think it would be worth meeting for a cup of coffee.
And as I walked down through the lobby of the hotel I was in, I turned and looked at the bar, and I thought, You know what? That's just a pickup joint. That's not the right place for us to have this moment. And so I walked to the middle of the street. It was Christmas. It was magnificent. There were lights everywhere. There was a nip in the air. And this vision comes up from the tube stop in front of Harvey Nichols (ph) and puts on a little lipstick. And I thought, Oh, my God, she's the cutest thing I've ever seen!
(LAUGHTER)
GRAMMER: And I said, Listen, I want to just go take a walk. It doesn't feel right to be in there. So we took a walk over to Hyde Park. And they had this Christmas fair thing going on and there was a ferris wheel and...
MORGAN: I know exactly what you're talking about. I know that fair!
GRAMMER: We got on the ferris wheel. And I looked at her and I thought -- I have to go back for one second. For the last several years, I had been saying to one particular friend of mine, I said, You know what? I don't care if I ever have sex again. I just want to be kissed. I want somebody to kiss me just once again in my life and mean it. And I looked at her in that moment, and I thought, I'm going to try.
MORGAN: Well, don't leave it there!
GRAMMER: I told you I wouldn't cry! She's going, like -- so I leaned in and kissed her, and we've been together ever since.
MORGAN: It's one of the most romantic things I've ever heard! You're making me...
(CROSSTALK)
GRAMMER: Listen, the snow started to fall as we walked across the street together. It was insane. It was like all the planets had danced together into a segregated (ph) charm on our behalf. And it was messy. It's been difficult since then. Kayte was uncertain about -- you know, I was trying to do something, some noble gesture to make the destruction of the marriage, the previous marriage, go easier somehow. And that was a mistake. That was just a mistake. I should have walked home and said, We're done. You can finally have everything you wanted, and I've found a new life.
MORGAN: I mean, it takes a strong woman to put up with all the mess that was around your life outside (ph)...
GRAMMER: Absolutely.
MORGAN: ... and to stick with it and to end up marrying you, fourth wife. You know, you're not like an easy sell to a family, you know? What is it about her you think that enabled her to deal with all this?
GRAMMER: She believes in love.
MORGAN: I hope you still fly Virgin Atlantic because if Richard Branson hears this story, he's going to want to make a movie out of this!
GRAMMER: We just went to England to visit her family and visit our new niece who was just born to Kayte's brother and sister-in-law. I love this new family I'm part of. I lament the fact that I'm not being allowed to see my children as much as I'd like to, but you know what? We're going to iron that out. And it's onward and upward.
MORGAN: You know what they say, Kelsey, true love will conquer all. And I think you've found true love.
GRAMMER: I have.
MORGAN: Let's have a little break. Let's come back for a last segment and just talk about "Boss" for a moment. I can't take much more of this romance. It's going to finish me off.
GRAMMER: OK.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MORGAN: Kelsey Grammer. I think we've recovered now, Kelsey.
GRAMMER: God!
MORGAN: Needed a break there!
(LAUGHTER)
MORGAN: Let's talk about a "Boss" for a moment. It's a great role for you, isn't it.
GRAMMER: Yes.
MORGAN: It's a proper, serious, meaty acting role. Are you really enjoying it?
GRAMMER: It's been -- it was a presumptive joining (ph) of the work every day. The stuff that Farhad Safinia, the fellow that wrote it, has been given me to say has been extraordinary. I mean, I think people will be quite startled by it. I hope they don't go through some kind of emotional upset because it's not "Frasier," I mean, because, I mean, it's so clearly not. It's just a completely different adventure. And he is a violent, vile, fascinating...
MORGAN: Charismatic.
GRAMMER: ... loving, charismatic creature.
MORGAN: Yes.
GRAMMER: He's fantastic.
MORGAN: Do you like him or not?
GRAMMER: I love him. I love his fight. He's a fighter. He's a courageous son of a bitch.
MORGAN: But isn't that you...
GRAMMER: He won't quit.
MORGAN: Isn't that you, in the end?
GRAMMER: Absolutely.
MORGAN: You're a fighter really. You've been through stuff that would have finished off lots of people.
GRAMMER: Yes.
MORGAN: Here you are, as happy as I've certainly ever seen you, and you've done it because, in the end, you just -- you fought your way to where you got to.
GRAMMER: Yes. You don't quit. You don't quit. I mean, listen, you quit some things when you realize that that path is done. I just think that's prudent. Gut you give it your best shot always, and if things don't turn out in your favor, something else will.
MORGAN: What a life you've had.
GRAMMER: Yes.
MORGAN: Do you feel lucky to have ended up where you are.
GRAMMER: Incredibly lucky. You know, I've felt lucky all through it, blessed in some way, even in the darkest days. A friend of mine had a great phrase for it. He said -- he was a chronic (INAUDIBLE) horrible, awful relationship with booze and women and all kinds of things. And he said, In one moment, I cried out to the God of my childhood. That always inspired me because when you cry out, there is an answer. And that's been my experience.
MORGAN: Do you feel for the first you've gone back to the joy of life you had as a young boy? GRAMMER: Yes. It is remarkably the same.
MORGAN: Kelsey, it's been a real pleasure.
GRAMMER: Thank you, my friend.
MORGAN: Thank you very much.
GRAMMER: Thanks.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is big!
(CROSSTALK)
HILLARY DUFF, "LIZZIE MCGUIRE": Mom, this is huge! This is really epic!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, honey, I still remember my first major party.
DUFF: I know how much (INAUDIBLE) but this is one (INAUDIBLE) about me.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) I'm just saying it's something you remember your whole life.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ma, can I go?
DUFF: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mom?
DUFF: No.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: Hillary Duff was a star at just 13 years old in Disney's hit TV show "Lizzie McGuire." She's made films. She's had chart-topping records, even written a best-selling novel, and her second novel, "Devoted," is out now. But at 24, she's getting ready for what may be her biggest challenge yet, and that's motherhood. Hillary, welcome!
HILLARY DUFF, ACTRESS, MUSICIAN, AUTHOR: Thank you.
MORGAN: Congratulations.
DUFF: Thank you.
MORGAN: A little boy, I hear.
DUFF: Yes.
MORGAN: How are you feeling?
DUFF: I feel great, actually. You know, I hear horror stories about the early part of pregnancy, and it's been a breeze for me, so I'm one of the lucky ones.
MORGAN: When you look at yourself in `Lizzie McGuire," do you feel irritated? Do you feel proud? Do you feel it's a different time, different world? What do you feel?
DUFF: I feel like -- across the years, it's been, like, mixed emotions. You know, right when I finished the show, I was kind of very ready to prove that I was Hillary Duff, and I started singing and just doing a lot of things to separate myself.
And now that I'm older and I have accomplished so much and people know me as Hillary and not Lizzie, you know, now I embrace where I came from. And it was such a massive show. It affected so many people and made me who I was. You know, I would not have my career now without that. So it's more funny, I think, now that I'm older, to look back and see it and not feel, you know, irritated.
MORGAN: Is it even a curse? Because when you're a child star at 13, it must all seem incredibly exciting. And then there comes that moment when you just really want to grow up, and people don't want you to.
DUFF: Yes.
MORGAN: You're kind of stuck there until you can break out.
DUFF: When I turned about 18 or 19, I was really ready to, like, stop being -- stop being seen in this, like, perfect light. And I really -- it's just not in my personality to go rail against who I am and do something outrageous so people...
MORGAN: I mean, normally what happens...
(CROSSTALK)
MORGAN: ... when child stars get to 19 is they go completely crazy.
DUFF: Yes.
MORGAN: Then we have the drugs, the booze, the terrible sexual exploits in Vegas. You don't seem to have done that.
(CROSSTALK)
MORGAN: Yes. Exactly! What happened to you?
DUFF: You know what? It's just not in my character. And you know, I fought really hard to prove that there's a different way. And it might have been a more slow and steady route, but you know, I think I figured it out.
MORGAN: How do you avoid it? Because you're getting all this money, all this fame. For a young person, I always think it's incredibly difficult. It never surprises me when young people go off the rails when they become really famous because the combination -- when I was 18, 19, I remember what I was like. I was having a crazy time...
DUFF: You were (INAUDIBLE)
MORGAN: ... with no money and no fame. So add those two cocktails to the list, it would have been a disaster. So I totally understand it, but...
DUFF: You know what? The thing is -- I mean, I had a very strict -- I mean, my mom gave me a lot of freedom, but she didn't -- I didn't get to behave a certain way. I showed up on time for work, and she made me aware constantly, like, that this is a job and there are, you know, 2,000 other girls ready to take your spot as soon as you're not responsible or you're disrespecting people or getting too big for yourself. She was very adamant about that, but I...
MORGAN: You came to Hollywood with your mom when you were 9.
DUFF: Yes, and my sister.
MORGAN: And did your mom always have this inkling you had what it took?
DUFF: I don't think so. I think she -- I think every parent thinks their kid is adorable and perfect, and you know, could be on TV. But my sister and I really showed interest in this and dedication, and she's, like, How can I tell my kids no, you know? It's the same as kids that are going into sports. Parents support them and push them. And it was kind of just like that.
MORGAN: Do you feel you missed out on anything?
DUFF: Of course. Yes.
MORGAN: What do you feel that you missed on?
DUFF: Stupid things like passing notes in school and having a locker and riding the bus, I mean, really stupid things. But at the time, I felt -- you know, once I started touring and my life -- I just -- it was -- you were very isolated, you know? And so you lose a lot of...
MORGAN: It can be lonely, can't it?
DUFF: It is. Absolutely. I mean, I lost a lot of my friends. People just -- I was on a totally different playing field than anybody else. And I grew up a lot faster, and I think that -- it definitely put me in a different place. But I wouldn't trade it. You know, I had this amazing life. I had these amazing experiences from a young age. And I think I was good at separating that and being, like, OK, well, they get this, but I get this, you know?
MORGAN: If your little boy gets to about 8 or 9...
DUFF: No. MORGAN: ... and says, Mommy...
DUFF: No.
(LAUGHTER)
MORGAN: ... I want to be star, how can you stop it?
DUFF: Oh, it's so hard. You know, people automatically -- my husband's a hockey player, and they automatically assume that the baby's going to be born with skates on or, like, it's going to be in the spotlight right away. I don't think there's a way to stop it. I think kids know what they want and -- but I just pray to God that's not what he wants.
MORGAN: Why would you be so concerned?
DUFF: From when I started to now, the industry is so different. I mean, there's such an obsession with people's private lives that I really don't think was there before. You know, the paparazzi wasn't as bad. And these shows about digging into people's lives and wanting to embarrass everybody and show that, like, we're human beings, too -- you know, it's just so invasive, and it's just a different business than it used to be.
MORGAN: What is the least perfect thing about you?
DUFF: Oh.
MORGAN: I was really struggling to find anything.
DUFF: Well, you know what, is that the public really has this perception of me that I'm perfect. And it's just so crazy because...
MORGAN: You nearly are. I mean, I couldn't find anything! Normally, my journalistic antennae are brilliant. I can latch onto some tiny chink in the perfect armor. The angel halo slips.
DUFF: Really? You couldn't find anything?
MORGAN: For you, the halo is, like, clasped on your head.
DUFF: Well, supposedly, I've bunch of feuds and I called Faye Dunaway something mean and...
MORGAN: Wow? Did you? I missed that. What did you call her.
DUFF: No, I don't want to get back into this.
MORGAN: This is fantastic!
DUFF: I can't believe you didn't find it, though, Piers.
MORGAN: What did you call Faye Dunaway?
DUFF: Oh, this is a long time ago. MORGAN: (INAUDIBLE) me. Let's slip that halo.
DUFF: No, I really don't want to bring it up again.
MORGAN: How bad was it?
DUFF: You can Google it.
MORGAN: Save me the time.
DUFF: I don't know you that well.
(LAUGHTER)
MORGAN: I tell you what. We'll have a little break, and while we're having the break...
DUFF: You're going to Google it!
MORGAN: ... I'm going to Google it. We'll come back and talk Faye Dunaway. Should never have mentioned that.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you believe in love at first sight?
DUFF: I'll let you know.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But I've seen you before.
DUFF: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How could I have seen you before and not know who you are now?
DUFF: Maybe you were looking, but you weren't really seeing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: That was Hillary Duff in "A Cinderella Story." It made more than $70 million worldwide. Not bad.
DUFF: Not too shabby.
MORGAN: I mean, not as much as you made from other stuff, like your music and your books. I mean, you've made a lot of money, haven't you?
DUFF: I have.
MORGAN: Like, staggering sums of money. How rich are you?
(LAUGHTER)
DUFF: My mom taught me not to talk about money.
MORGAN: Well, give me a ballpark.
DUFF: Really, no way.
MORGAN: Why not?
DUFF: I have done quite well.
MORGAN: Anyway, back to Faye Dunaway because this is brilliant...
DUFF: No.
MORGAN: ... because I had absolutely no idea about this. So basically, you were up for the remake of "Bonnie and Clyde," and Faye Dunaway shoves her four pennies worth in and says, I wish they were looking for a real actress. And I suppose most young actresses would have thought, That's Faye Dunaway, I'd better be respectful. You piled in...
(LAUGHTER)
MORGAN: ... big-time! This is fantastic! And said to her -- (INAUDIBLE) remind what you say to her?
DUFF: No, no. You can read off your BlackBerry.
(LAUGHTER)
MORGAN: You basically said to her that, you know, if you looked like Faye Dunaway, you'd be feeling pretty angry, too.
(LAUGHTER)
DUFF: Do you like that?
MORGAN: Yes, I love that!
DUFF: (INAUDIBLE)
MORGAN: That was fantastically bitchy. I loved it.
DUFF: I have a little bitch in me.
MORGAN: Did it have the desired effect? Did it keep her quiet?
DUFF: Well, she came back and said, you know, Oh, I never made that comment, and blah, blah, blah. And it really got a lot of press when I said that because I have been a punching bag, and I understand why I could have been.
MORGAN: And you thought, No, enough.
DUFF: Yes. I just -- there's no reason why people can say comments and expect no retaliation. I mean, why would she say that to me? MORGAN: Well, I'm all for feuds. I couldn't agree more. You should never tell (ph) those kind of things. Now, you've married an incredibly wealthy, handsome, sporting superstar. What attracted you to him?
(LAUGHTER)
DUFF: You know, he's an amazing guy. And I'm still lucky to have met him and to have found someone that I'm so compatible with. And we have such a normal relationship and household. And it's so great, compared to stepping outside and kind of what our everyday is.
MORGAN: Now, how many terrible frogs did you have to kiss before you got to him?
DUFF: Quite a few. We were just talking about our -- our -- our lists earlier today. And we have -- we tease each other all the time. I mean, it's such a funny thing.
MORGAN: Who has the worst list, do you think?
DUFF: Oh, him by far. Come on!
(LAUGHTER)
MORGAN: You went out with two other famous people, Joel Madden and Aaron Carter. I mean, is it a good idea to go out with somebody famous? Does it work, do you think, to the benefit, or are there negatives? Because obviously, you attract more attention.
DUFF: Yes.
MORGAN: But at the same time, I guess they know the kind of circus that you're in.
DUFF: Right. I think that's the positive part, is understanding the lifestyle and how difficult it is. You know, you really have that in common. And for a while, I mean, when I was younger, those were the only people I was meeting. That was my world. And how am I supposed to go meet a normal guy?
And I think that's what really attracted me in the first place to my husband was that he kind of gets it, you know, because he's in the sports world and they get a bit of that, but we have -- we had different lives but things in common. And it was great for me to not...
MORGAN: I'm being blinded by this ring on your finger. Let me see this? This is one of the biggest rocks I have ever seen! That was your engagement ring.
DUFF: No, no! Didn't you have Kim Kardashian on the show?
MORGAN: I don't think even hers is bigger than that.
DUFF: Yes, it's way bigger! MORGAN: Come on! Don't put it away so soon. That is huge!
DUFF: It's pretty good.
MORGAN: Is that what he gave you as an engagement ring?
DUFF: Yes. It's really beautiful, and I look at it still and I can't believe it's mine. I mean, I almost fainted when I saw it.
MORGAN: Now, you're writing a book, curiously, about divorce.
DUFF: I planned on it, writing a book on divorce, and it's, like, I changed my mind. So...
MORGAN: Really?
DUFF: Yes, I have. I had -- my parents went through a very nasty divorce, and I didn't talk to my dad for a long time. And our relationship has gotten a lot better and we're in a really good place. I just don't feel, like, the need for that anymore.
MORGAN: Good for you.
DUFF: Yes. It's a really good place for me.
MORGAN: So this is "Devoted." This is a novel. Tell me very quickly about it before we go. So this is...
DUFF: So it's about a young photojournalist who is -- and her father disappears, so she's traveling across the world, trying to unravel the mystery of what happened to him. And in the meantime, she finds -- she falls in love with this mysterious man that's from a past life. There's lots of other elements, but it has a paranormal aspect.
MORGAN: Did you actually write this?
DUFF: I did. Yes.
MORGAN: Really? Quite unusual for a child star.
DUFF: Yes.
MORGAN: I think most (INAUDIBLE) other people to write them.
DUFF: I have a wonderful -- well, I do. I have -- not to write them, but I have a co-writer. Her name is Elise Allen (ph). But I dreamed up this whole story and these characters and the plot. And when I met with my publishers, I'm, like, OK, well, you know I stopped going to school in the middle of 3rd grade, so I really don't know how to, first of all, have the confidence to do this. You know, I know I have a strong story, but I don't -- how do I get from pen to paper and just start that?
And so she was really amazing. I mean, I think everything I do is a collaborative effort. If I'm making a record, I'm collaborating. If I'm on stage, I've got my band and my singers. It's kind of how I do things. And it worked out great for me. And I have one more book to write.
MORGAN: Well, good for you. It's been a pleasure to meet you.
DUFF: Thank you.
MORGAN: And I hope Faye's watching and feels some sort of remorse.
(LAUGHTER)
DUFF: Oh, thank you so much for bringing that up, Piers!
(LAUGHTER)
MORGAN: Hillary, thank you. It's been a pleasure. Thank you very much.
DUFF: Thank you.
