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Nancy Grace
Cops to Interview Baby Lisa`s Brothers
Aired October 26, 2011 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, live, the heartland. A 10- month-old baby sleeping in a crib just feet away from her own mother, Daddy on the night shift, goes missing without a trace, front door unlocked, front window open, every cell phone gone. Grainy surveillance video emerges, Mommy shopping with a mystery man just before baby Lisa vanishes. What does Mommy buy? Baby food and a big honkin` box of wine.
Mommy, knocked out drunk when baby goes missing, changes her story. Now she sees baby Lisa at 6:40 PM, not 10:30, that costing cops a full four hours!
Bombshell tonight. In the last hours, cops set to interview the little brothers ages just 5 and 8 in the home when baby Lisa goes missing. Cops also take the boys` saliva, their spit, to compare to mystery DNA. This as a highly trained cadaver dog hits on carpet near Mommy`s bed. But the defense claims the cadaver dog hits on a fingernail or a dirty dipe! What?
Parents refusing to speak to the media, at vigils or even in public at all. As Mommy and daddy slow down the search, refusing to talk to cops one on one, tonight, where is 10-month-old baby Lisa?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DEBORAH BRADLEY, MOTHER: Bring her home!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Missing baby Lisa.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The mom apparently told police initially she didn`t want to look behind the house. She was afraid what she would find.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But no mother...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She said that she was drinking that night.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... who`s looking for their child uses the word "grieving."
BRADLEY: Because we`re grieving.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... unless they know their child is dead.
BRADLEY: ... grieving...
-- grieving...
-- grieving...
grieving...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And that is very striking to me.
BRADLEY: No.
No.
No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And in fact, she may have been drunk. They`re looking for any kind of break in the case.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So who is Deborah Bradley?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She is like all of us.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Cops want to interview these parents separately.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She had a very normal life.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They feel that there are some police officers who are not looking for their baby and they`re just looking at them.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But the police are treating them as suspects, even though they`re not using the word "suspect."
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Focuses heavily on that house and the people in it.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police say they`re frustrated, but they won`t stop looking.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You know, there are miracles and...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Bombshell tonight. In the last hours, police set to interview the little brothers ages 5 and 8 in the home the night baby Lisa goes missing, cops also taking the boys` saliva, their spit, to compare to mystery DNA.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Daughter Lisa was taken from our home.
BRADLEY: You know, he was looking around outside and I was holding my boys!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you don`t have any other suspects, there was one person that was there that night.
BRADLEY: We don`t care, just somewhere safe! (INAUDIBLE) come home please!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who else can you point your finger at, you know?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Somebody`s got her somewhere.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They live here. It`s their child. Who could tell us more?
BRADLEY: They were crying, asking what`s going on, where is she at, why is she gone. And then, you know, the police came (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I told them everything that I knew.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Their involvement with this investigation is critical.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Now, wait a minute. Why would anybody steal a baby this age?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: With regard to this gentleman that was seen walking with -- allegedly, with a baby, that`s, like, three miles away from the home. It`s over broken terrain. Some of it is residential. Some of it is woods.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The only reason is because somebody wants a baby. And usually, that means the baby is alive someplace. Somebody`s taking care of the baby and making it their own.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "Because we`re grieving" -- did you hear that?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She says that rather flippantly. And so that is a very key thing she just said. And all of her behavior throughout this entire...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are live in the heartland and taking your calls. The search for baby Lisa ratchets up. Critical hours have come and gone, and still no baby Lisa. Can you help us tonight?
We are going live to the family home. Standing by, CNN correspondent Jim Spellman at the Irwin home. Jim, what is this business about the parents finally letting police speak to the little boys, ages 8 and 5? What has taken so long?
JIM SPELLMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, it`s been three weeks, Nancy, since investigators have been able to speak to those half-brothers of baby Lisa. Police here tell us it`s just crucial to get whatever information they might know. They`re little boys. Every day, their memories are going to fade. Things are going to get less clear. And remember, they were two boys in the house when Mom was drinking and maybe even blacked out. They could be a huge source of information. The interview here with those boys will be Friday.
GRACE: Jim, Jim, Jim! Jim, why do you say "maybe even passed out"? Hasn`t Mommy admitted she was passed out cold, drunk? I mean, why are your saying "maybe even" Mommy passed out? Didn`t she admit that?
SPELLMAN: Well, she has admitted it, Nancy, but it`s been really hard only going on her media interviews here and there to really know. Those are exactly the questions that the police want to know. Did she pass out? For how long? When? How long into drinking did that begin? Who else was she with? These are all questions that investigators really need to know. They`ve learned a lot, you know, in these last three weeks.
GRACE: You know, Jim Spellman, I understand it`s not even going to be a cop interviewing the 5-year-old and 8-year-old. It`s actually going to be a forensic specialist that is highly trained in interviewing children. Is that correct? Yes, no.
SPELLMAN: That is correct, yes, a specially trained social worker.
GRACE: Everybody, you`re seeing ABC`s exclusive video of baby Lisa`s half brothers with parents Jeremy Irwin and Deborah Bradley.
They spoke to -- and let me make sure I understand this correctly, Alexis Tereszcuk, senior reporter, Radaronline.com. Alexis, it`s my understanding that immediately when baby Lisa went missing, one boy was allowed to speak to cops for about 30 minutes, and one boy was allowed to speak to cops for about 50 minutes, and that`s it all this time. And they tell police that they heard something that night. The mom and dad won`t let them speak to police to help find baby Lisa? What`s with that?
ALEXIS TERESZCUK, RADARONLINE.COM: Well, they have said that -- they originally said, We don`t want the police to talk to them because we don`t want to traumatize them anymore. That`s what the parents have said. That`s what Deborah said in interviews. The police have said they don`t want to traumatize these children. They just want to see if they have any other details that perhaps they didn`t get in the beginning. It was a really frantic night that night. Their sister had just been found missing, and the police didn`t get the chance they needed to.
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers. Joining us tonight, Peter Odom and Renee Rockwell, both defense attorneys out of the Atlanta jurisdiction.
First of all, to you, Peter Odom. We know that a forensic specialist is going to speak to the little boys, OK? That`s common practice all over the country because children don`t always speak in adult language.
But this is what I`ve got a hard, hard time believing, Peter Odom. Mommy says she hasn`t spoken to the boys at all about this. Now, one of these boys is 8, one is 5. Now, the minute my son wakes up, John David -- he`s 3 -- if he doesn`t see Lucy, he says, Where`s Lucy? It`s the first thing he says.
So Mommy is trying to tell me that not one time has she had to explain to these children where`s baby Lisa? I just don`t believe that, Peter Odom. Why would she say that?
PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, maybe, Nancy, because it`s true. She`s no doubt been instructed by the police not to talk to the kids about the substance of it. Of course, parents are going to answer their kids` questions, but she can do it in a way that avoids suggesting anything to them. And I don`t know why you would not take her at her word, Nancy. I certainly do.
GRACE: Because having been around my own children, you know, they`re not knots on a log, Renee Rockwell. They notice when a family member is gone. You know that. So I find it really hard to believe that out of the blue, Mommy is saying, Oh, no, no, no, no, no, I haven`t talked about baby Lisa missing at all, when that`s the first thing my children say in the morning, where`s the other one? I just don`t believe that, Renee.
RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: And Nancy, it bothers me that she continues to talk to the police. If she was my client, I wouldn`t let her say anything because what she does is she paints herself in the corner. If she says, I didn`t see the child at 10:00 o`clock, I saw the child -- everything she`s saying she`s committed to.
GRACE: Yes. You know what? You know what? I appreciate that, but that`s not even remotely close to the question that I asked you.
We are taking your calls. Let`s go out Ruth in Pennsylvania. Hi, Ruth. What`s your question, dear?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, do you believe that it`s possible that the father may have shown baby Lisa`s picture to someone at work, and he, knowing the father was working that night for the first time, went to their home? And was it just possibly a fluke that the mother was passed out and it was very easy for him to steal baby Lisa?
GRACE: Ruth in Pennsylvania, I absolutely think that that is possible. I also think it`s possible that little green men came down from a spaceship from Mars. It`s possible. I mean, I don`t know that it didn`t happen. Because your story, Ruth, is piling coincidence on coincidence, and maybe this and maybe that. And maybe the dad had a co-worker that wanted to steal a baby and found out -- and he happened to see the picture and he found out Daddy wasn`t home that night, the very night Mommy is drunk. I mean, you`re piling on one "if" after the next after the next after the next. And frankly, his co-workers are very easily identified.
And I`ve got a very strong feeling -- I`ll go back to Jim Spellman on this -- that cops verified Daddy`s location the night baby Lisa goes missing. So they know who the co-workers are. Yes, no, Jim Spellman?
SPELLMAN: That`s right. They even have surveillance tape of him working overnight, renovating a Starbucks.
GRACE: Hey, Jim, another question. I understand the little boys` buccal swab was taken -- in other words, an oral swab out of the mouth -- to compare to mystery DNA found in the home? Now, that`s a big bombshell. Tell me about mystery DNA found in the home.
SPELLMAN: They haven`t taken those swabs yet. The police hope to do that on Friday, if the family continues to agree to that. That`s on the schedule for Friday. They haven`t done it yet.
That`s right, Nancy. Last week, the 17-hour massive search here, they got all sorts of DNA. They want to eliminate as much of it as they can to try to focus on any unknown DNA that might have been from someone, you know, an intruder.
GRACE: Everybody, our panel is taking your calls. Jim Spellman there on the scene.
Joining me right now out of Kansas City is Lisa, who says she saw a man that night around 12:30 AM walking with a baby resembling baby Lisa. Lisa, thank you for being with us.
LISA, SAW MAN WALKING WITH BABY (via telephone): Hi. Thank you for having me.
GRACE: Lisa, please clear up for us, what exactly did you see that night? What time and where?
LISA: It was that evening at between 12:10 and 12:15. My husband was leaving for work. And normally, he`ll just get in his car and just take off. Well, for some reason, that evening he started looking down the street as if he had seen something.
And then all of a sudden, he said, he was looking down the street and he ended up seeing a male (ph). He was concerned at that time, thinking that maybe this gentleman was trying to break in cars or something of that sort. So he kind of stayed there and kept an eye on him.
And then as he started walking up the street towards us, my husband noticed that he was carrying a baby in his arms. And that was kind of concerning to him because it was a chilly night, and the baby appeared not to have anything on but a diaper.
GRACE: Now, what can you tell me about this guy`s description, Lisa? What did he look like?
LISA: The gentleman was a tall -- very tall, I would say 5-7 or taller, really slender. I mean, he was pretty thin. He wasn`t big at all or not really muscular or anything like that. And from what we could tell, he had -- his head, from the streetlight, it was really, like, shiny, like it was a bald head, like, there was no hair at all.
GRACE: Could you tell if he was Asian, Hispanic, white, African- American? What could you tell?
LISA: Based on the lighting, I could not -- we could not determine his race.
GRACE: But you saw a baby.
LISA: That`s correct. We did see a baby. Now, the baby`s complexion, we can tell that the baby was, like, a paler (ph) color, like, a white pale (ph) color that did stick out from the gentleman that was carrying her.
GRACE: Everybody, we are live in the heartland, Kansas City, Missouri, outside the Irwin home. The search for 10-month-old baby Lisa now desperate. Tip line, 816-474-8477, over $100,000 reward in the search for baby Lisa.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRADLEY: I was, you know, just holding my boys, and they were crying, asking, What`s going on, where`s she at, why is she gone?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police now plan to question her brothers, two young brothers, who were in the room right next to baby Lisa`s.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They will be re-interviewed again.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Baby Lisa`s brothers, just 6 and 8 years old.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Scheduled to meet with a child specialist.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He just asked a whole bunch of questions, and I told him everything that I knew.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Believing that they were not objectively questioned and want some fresh faces.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: To bring in some detectives who are fresh-eyed, fresh-eared.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Complete mystery at this time.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: their investigation focussing on baby Lisa`s bedroom.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s dense woods. It`s hard to even walk through it when it gets into this heavily wooded area.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are live and taking your calls. Where is 10-month-old baby Lisa? We learn a highly trained cadaver dog hits on carpet near Mommy`s bed. What does the defense say to that? That it is either a poopy pants, a fingernail or another dead body. Good to know that the defense theory is that somebody else has been killed in the house!
Clear that up for me, Ellie Jostad. Why did the defense bring up the specter of a dead body at some point in the past?
ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Right. Well, the New York attorney, Joe Tacopina, that`s representing the family, is the one that said the cadaver dog hit could have been something like a feces from a dirty diaper, which you would expect to have in a house with a young baby. He also said that it could be something like toenail clippings that fell onto the floor.
GRACE: Really? Let`s go to an expert, Tracy Sargent, canine rescue and recovery specialist. She`s joining with us her dog, Cinco, who we have featured for many times on our show. He is a highly trained cadaver dog.
OK, Tracy, help me out. In all the times that I used drug dogs, cadaver dogs, bomb dogs, fire dogs, I never heard anyone say that a cadaver dog would hit on a poopy pants.
TRACY SARGENT, CANINE RESCUE AND RECOVERY SPECIALIST: Yes, that`s an really interesting situation. There is a difference between human waste and human remains. If we have some type of human remains within feces, it is a chance that the cadaver dog would alert to that. But just strictly feces...
GRACE: Excuse me!
SARGENT: ... that seems to be kind of a stretch.
GRACE: I`m not understanding you, Tracy. Human remains equals, in my mind, dead body. Am I wrong or right? Help me out.
SARGENT: Human remains. And going back to the terminology of a cadaver dog, human remains detection dogs are cadaver dogs, but they`re much more than that. They not only find a cadaver, which is a full-sized body, but the whole spectrum of human remains, which could be blood, tissue, organs, body parts, any type of bodily fluids. So it`s a whole spectrum of human remains, not just a cadaver.
GRACE: So the body doesn`t have to be dead for a cadaver dog to hit on the remains?
SARGENT: Well, the body itself does not have to be a full-sized body, it could be any part of a body that is decomposing, whether it could be...
GRACE: OK, oh, oh, oh!
SARGENT: ... tissue or skin.
GRACE: That`s what I needed to hear, Tracy. I`m trying to get to a point here, and I don`t think I`m doing a very good job. Doesn`t the body have to be dead for the dog to hit on the remains?
SARGENT: The dogs can hit on remains, but it doesn`t necessarily mean that it`s a dead body.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police remain stuck on a theory that Deborah Bradley had something to do with her daughter`s disappearance.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He had the baby in his arms and he had the baby`s head kind of like this.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This video, taken from a gas station near the home where baby Lisa was last seen, shows an unidentified person walking along the road around 2:15 AM October 4th. Lisa was reported missing just hours later.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) a little Baby Lisa...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The scent of a deceased human.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Cadaver dog, a positive hit.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, the smell of death.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: In the parents` bedroom near the bed.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are live and taking your calls. It`s my understanding, Jim Spellman, who`s joining us there outside the Irwin home, that Mommy has stated she failed a polygraph. Is that true?
SPELLMAN: That`s right. She said she failed a polygraph test centering on the question of, does she know the whereabouts of baby Lisa. We understand that was the question that she failed.
GRACE: We`re taking your calls live. I want to go to L.A. Jack Trimarco, retired FBI polygraph unit chief, is joining us. Jack, thanks a lot for being with us. What does that say to you that Mommy has divulged that that is the particular question she failed in her polygraph?
JACK TRIMARCO, RETIRED FBI POLYGRAPH UNIT CHIEF (via telephone): Well, Nancy, you have to know that whenever there`s a missing child, the FBI always asks mom and dad to take a polygraph test, along with the last person to have been with the child and the person who reports the disappearance to the police.
And so we`re doing that to eliminate them from suspicion, but in reality, we also know that one third of the time, everything stops right there. When she divulges that she failed the polygraph test, you`re going hear that from her. You`re probably not going to hear that from the authorities. But she would know if she failed because if she passed, they would have shaken her hand and thanked her for coming in and hugged her and said, Hey we`re going to find out who took your baby and we`re going to get her back alive.
GRACE: Right.
TRIMARCO: If she fails or if she`s inconclusive, then they`re going to go into a nice, soft interrogation and try to get her to make an admission or a confession as to what really happened that night.
GRACE: With me, Jack Trimarco. To Marc Klaas, president and founder of Klaas Kids Foundation. Marc, when your daughter, Polly, went missing, you begged cops, Take my DNA! Give me a polygraph! Search my car! Search my house! I don`t care what you do, but do it in a hurry so you can find my girl. What do you make of this, Marc Klaas?
MARC KLAAS, KLAAS KIDS FOUNDATION: Well, in fact, DNA wasn`t terribly popular or even accepted at that point, so that wasn`t part of the equation.
GRACE: Right.
KLAAS: But Mr. Trimarco`s description of that scenario is exactly what happened in my case. I believe that these people have lost their sense of urgency. They`ve circled the wagons. They`re making decision by committee. They`re not letting things move quickly, as they need to.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE STAFFER, COVERING STORY: Last person to see baby Lisa.
ED LAVANDERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: There was also two older little boys in the house.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He didn`t know how long she`s been gone.
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HLN HOST: The claim is that somebody entered through the window.
DEBORAH BRADLEY, MOTHER OF MISSING 10-MONTH-OLD BABY LISA IRWIN: Sometimes she cries, it depends on how long of sleep she`s had.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Grabbed the child and then went out the front door.
BRADLEY: But I mean if you pick her up and you hold her, she probably won`t cry.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: All of this without being noticed by Lisa`s mother or the two children, the half brothers of baby Lisa that we know that we`re in the house.
JEREMY IRWIN, FATHER OF MISSING 10-MONTH-OLD BABY LISA IRWIN: If they heard anything, they are both pretty heavy sleepers.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back. We are live in the heartland in the search for 10-month-old baby Lisa. Tonight we learn the two little brothers in the home the night baby Lisa goes missing, ages 5 and 8, are finally being questioned by cops through a forensic specialist, especially trained in questioning children.
Also the boys` Buccal swabs, their spit, to be taken to compare to mystery DNA found in the home.
We are live and taking your calls.
I`ve got a big question, Marc Klaas. I find it very interesting, not odd, not unusual, just interesting that the parents are not speaking publicly. They are not asking for help publicly, they are not speaking at vigils. Nothing. I find that very, very unusual. What are your thoughts?
MARC KLAAS, PRESIDENT AND FOUNDER, KLAASKIDS FOUNDATION: Well, certainly in these kinds of -- in all of these missing child cases the best advocate for the missing child are the parents. They need to get out there and oftentimes do get out there, talk about the child, answer the reporter`s questions, answer law enforcement`s questions, make themselves very, very visible, release photographs, release videos, release testimonials, bring friends and neighbors in, get the people that need to be involved in this thing going.
You need to be the cheerleader for your own missing child. There`s no better advocate and there never will be.
GRACE: You know, I want to reiterate the parents are not criminal suspects in this case.
Out to the lines, to Elaine in Illinois. Hi, Elaine. What`s your question, dear?
ELAINE, CALLER FROM ILLINOIS: Hi, Nancy. Real quick I just want to mention and I won`t mention it ever again. I did send -- resend you that letter and the man that I talked to of your people, said that -- I sent it to the right desk and then you would get it, so I hope you enjoy it.
But my question is, does anyone know if the mother is an alcoholic? And the reason I ask is because if she is, then I can guarantee you from experience that the 8-year-old is a lot more mature and knows a lot more than they would give him credit for.
GRACE: That`s a really good question.
What do we know, Alexis Tereszcuk? I understand that the mom has stated that she drinks this amount, five or so glasses of wine, a couple of times a week?
ALEXIS TERESZCUK, REPORTER, RADAROLINE.COM: Yes. You`re exactly right. And she said she is not an alcoholic. She says she`s entitled to have adult time.
One of her friends from when she lived elsewhere in the country has said that she knows Deborah and that she was always a drinker but she also said she wasn`t an alcoholic either.
GRACE: You know, to Brian Russell, forensic psychologist joining us out of Kansas City, you know, I`m just a JD, a lawyer. All right. I`m not an MD or an addiction specialist. But to me when you repeatedly drink until you black out, doesn`t that mean you have a problem?
BRIAN RUSSELL, PH.D., FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: In my book it does, Nancy. Any time somebody is drinking to the point where they are blacking out and they are unable to report to you with any degree of accuracy what occurred during their drunken period that is absolutely a problem. And there is no entitlement of a parent to have their downtime or their drinking time if that makes the parent impaired to the point that they are incapable of taking care of children in their care.
In my opinion, Nancy, that`s abusive in and of itself no matter what else happens in this case.
GRACE: To Dr. Ann Contrucci, pediatrician joining us out of Atlanta.
Doctor, thank you so much for being with us. I want to go circle back to something our cadaver dog expert said. She mentioned that a cadaver dog who typically hits on decomposed, in other words, dead remains may hit on human remains such as if there was, say, for instance, a poopy pants.
If there were -- if there had been blood in the diaper as well, the dog may have hit on it. What would the scenario be for a 10-month-old child to have blood in their diaper?
DR. ANN CONTRUCCI, M.D., PEDIATRICIAN: Well, blood in the stool is not a normal thing for anyone, certainly not for a 10-month-old baby. So that would be highly unusual. I mean, just in my understanding from what she was saying is just stool in the diaper would not -- is not -- does not mean human remains. It`s human waste and there`s a difference. But yes, you`re correct in saying blood in the stool would not be a normal thing for a 10-month-old.
GRACE: And another quick question, Dr. Contrucci, the Buccal swab or also called the Buccal swab which is taken in the mouth, the spit, the saliva in the mouth, how is that done?
CONTRUCCI: It`s really done with just -- my understanding of it, I`ve never had to do it myself, but with a little Q-tip and you get the saliva inside -- the inside part of the cheek. That the Buccal area. And then you swab it and then you get the DNA. And everybody knows that DNA is your fingerprint. Everybody has got their own unique fingerprint of their DNA.
GRACE: Dr. Contrucci, another quick question while I`ve got you. If somebody had that amount of booze, I believe it was five to six glasses of wine over a couple of hours, and blacked out, how long would that blackout scenario last, do you think?
CONTRUCCI: Well, that`s an interesting question because oftentimes a complete blackout occurs with binge type drinking and if you`re drinking, you know, five, six, seven glasses of wine in a rapid succession then you`re going to probably do something like a complete blackout, and I would expect that it would last several hours, you know.
When you blacked out it doesn`t mean you`re passed out necessarily but you have no memory whatsoever of what`s going on around you, what`s happening. You may be conscious but you`re really not.
GRACE: Joining me, Dr. Ann Contrucci out of Atlanta.
Out to the lines. Sandy in North Carolina. Hi, Sandy, what`s your question?
SANDY, CALLER FROM NORTH CAROLINA: The surveillance at the convenience store, what are the chances with the technology we have now of that picture being cleared up enough to where it could be --
GRACE: You know, Sandy, my question exactly.
Liz, let me see the video from the gas station, not the grocery store where mom is getting a box of wine, because I can`t see a darn thing.
Another thing about that, Sandy in North Carolina, you know who needs to fix this for them? Target.
What`s the other store that does so well? Wal-Mart. You know they are right up there with NASA to enhance. They`ve got some of the best technique.
You see that highlighted oval? That we believe is a male, late in the night -- around what time was it, Matt? That baby Lisa disappeared and this is -- this video of a -- we believe a man based on the gait, the way he`s walking, emerges from the woods across in this gas station, 12:30 a.m., the same night baby Lisa goes missing.
But, you know, Jim Spellman, I don`t see anything indicative of this person carrying a baby. So where did that scenario come from? I don`t see it.
JIM SPELLMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes. No, it doesn`t appear to be that that person is carrying a baby, though. The light colored shirt does line up with what Lisa, the neighbor here, reported seeing about a half hour or so before that.
But, look, you know, can you enhance that video that would being a great because clearly there`s not a lot for investigators to go on. Except that somebody walked by that gas station. They got to find something else to corroborate it with.
GRACE: So that gas station video, the baby -- the sighting by the neighbors around 12:30 a.m., this gas station video is around 2:15 a.m. the same night.
Jim Spellman, two questions. Number one, did cops comb the area? The woods from which this man emerges. And number two, what the hay, why didn`t cops rip up that carpet where the cadaver dog hit? What`s with that?
SPELLMAN: First question, yes, absolutely. They`ve searched around that area. Most areas here they`ve searched multiple times. It`s really not that far. It`s one of the first gas stations you get to. They definitely went over that area.
As far as pulling up that carpet we don`t know. We know that sometimes they can just trim a small amount where they can use special lights to look at it and take photographs. Really all they needed was enough to get a search warrant and they got it.
GRACE: Everybody, we are live in the heartland. The search now critical for 10-month-old baby Lisa, as mommy says she failed a polygraph and cadaver dogs hit inside mommy`s bedroom. A mystery man emerges allegedly carrying a tiny baby the night Lisa goes missing.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Did it look like anything was disturbed in her room? I mean did anything look out of place other than her not being there.
BRADLEY: No. No. It`s like they just walked in and just disappeared.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Now if she was to have been taken out of the house at night this is almost pitch black.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Friends of Deborah Bradley say she was loving and caring.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: A mom admits she was drinking that night.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: But also say there were some red flags.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She was definitely an attention hound.
BRADLEY: She`s our little girl. She`s completed our family. She means everything to my boys.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She would just do things to try to cause a scene every where, you know?
BRADLEY: If you have her, please, just take her somewhere safe.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Authorities plan to interview the 11-month-old girl`s young brothers.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: But they are pretty young, her brothers. No police will be in the room.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Child specialist --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Everybody, we are live and taking your calls. Baby Lisa missing from her own crib according to mommy.
Out to the lines. Tara in Oregon, hi, dear what`s your question?
TARA, CALLER from OREGON: Hi there. Can you hear me?
GRACE: Yes.
TARA: OK. I was wondering how would someone know that they had time to walk through that house, turn on all the lights, look for cell phones unless they knew that the mom was blacked out drunk? And how would they know that they didn`t have a home phone and they only needed to take cell phones? It has to be somebody that knew that she was passed out.
GRACE: You know, Tara in Oregon, those are very, very good questions that point to a familial abduction.
What about it? To you, Marc Harrold, former cop, Atlanta P.D., attorney and author of "Observations of White Noise?"
What about it, Marc?
MARC HARROLD, FORMER OFFICER, ATLANTA PD, ATTORNEY, AUTHOR OF "OBSERVATIONS OF WHITE NOISE": Well, the statistics don`t really bear that out. A crime of opportunity, if this was a crime of opportunity, somebody just thought they could get in the house. It`s the middle of the night. Somebody might have taken a chance.
It does indicate to some degree that there are more -- is more likely someone who knows the family`s pattern and that sort of thing. But not necessarily. This really could have been somebody who just came into the house and took the baby. The cell phones, it`s hard to say. Maybe they didn`t know about a landline but they took him, it seems like.
GRACE: So someone that had time to walk around the house, turn on all the lights, decide to take the cell phones -- to Jim Spellman, I`m very intrigued by the idea that the perpetrator in front of God and everybody crawled into a window in the front of the house.
You know I prosecuted a lot of burglaries. You know burglars are addicted. That and drugs and sex predators, those are three -- you really can`t rehabilitate. Burglars just love the kick of going into somebody else`s house whether they steal a Picasso or they take the roast beef out of the fridge. They`ve got to get in somebody`s house.
So how often do they go through the front window on the front of the house where the whole neighborhood can see it? What`s in the back of the house? Why didn`t they go in baby Lisa`s window, Jim Spellman?
SPELLMAN: Yes, Nancy, it`s about the window in question that the father says was open and has -- right now has the fingerprint powder around it. It`s just about the least likely place that I would imagine you would try to get in the house. The three other sides of the house are dark. There`s basement, sliding door. There`s a bunch of doors. There`s a deck that leads up to a back door and a window.
All of those are blocked from view. The front of the house is the only house on the street that doesn`t have a tree in it. It`s wide open. It would seems to be not very practical place to try to sneak in unseen into this house.
GRACE: Man, tell it, Spellman. And another thing -- show Spellman again in full for me, because right behind him is the window we`re talking -- that`s not Spellman.
Spellman in full. There -- right there. That window is the one that cops say was found open. And I watched the reenactment, Jim Spellman. One cop had to practically get on another cop to get into that window. It`s about, what, maybe 4 1/2 feet off the ground?
SPELLMAN: Yes, about 4 1/2 feet. I`m about 6`3" and it`s about this high on me so it would be difficult. And again, not where you would go to try to be stealth. And you can see here from this picture it`s wide open. There`s no shrubs, bushes in front it at all. It is just right there right in the open. It just seems -- it would be very difficult to do, Nancy.
GRACE: Agree. Unleash the lawyers again. Peter Odom, Renee Rockwell.
Peter Odom, why won`t the parents -- why have they dug their heels in, they won`t speak separately to police? Mommy and daddy say they`ll talk but not separately. Daddy has got to be there to help mommy through the interview. Why?
PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes. Well, Nancy, this is a family in crisis. And they`ve been leaning on each other now for three weeks. And the police have been very aggressive with them. And you know that -- they need each other to be there. And that certainly is understandable from a human perspective.
GRACE: Please put him up. I can`t see him.
So your answer is, she just needs him to be there. OK, Renee Rockwell --
ODOM: They need each other.
GRACE: Here`s your chance. Yes, you had your chance.
RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: OK, Nancy. Good cop, bad cop.
GRACE: Renee, why won`t mommy and daddy speak one-on-one to cops?
ROCKWELL: OK. The good cop, bad cop. You separate the two. I know they`re not suspects. But you separate the two. Interview the two. Go back to the other one and said, but he said this. And you know --
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Yes, I know that, Renee. That`s not my question again.
ROCKWELL: But maybe they know that.
GRACE: Why won`t mommy speak alone to police? ROCKWELL: Maybe they know that. And maybe they don`t want to get tricked up because cops can use trickery, get any kind of fooling around. They can tricked these people into saying something they don`t want to say. I say they don`t need to talk to them at all.
GRACE: Well, thank you, Renee, that helped find baby Lisa.
To Marc Klaas. Marc, weigh in on the fact that mommy refuses to talk to cops separately without the daddy there to help her.
KLAAS: Yes. First all of, the truth doesn`t change. So as long as people are simply telling the truth, the stories are going to be consistent. Now I understand that they are willing to have these interviews but only with police officers that don`t have any preconceived theories as to what has happened.
Now the problem with that, though, is that every detective working this case is subject to the same briefings and debriefings and the same information, so basically the family is setting up an impossible scenario.
Whoever goes in and talks to them needs to have good information so that they can ask the correct questions and elicit the correct information. And as long as the parents are telling the truth, that shouldn`t be a problem.
GRACE: Yes.
KLAAS: Only if there`s deception is there going to be an issue.
GRACE: You know, so, they are now saying they will speak separately but they want a whole new interviewer. You know a -- is that what you`re telling me, Marc Klaas?
KLAAS: That`s exactly what I`m telling you and that doesn`t make any sense. They are asking for somebody it seems like that doesn`t have the full case information and isn`t going to be able to ask necessarily the correct questions.
GRACE: And another thing, Marc Klaas, we`re learning that what they may have said to each other typically would have been protected by the marital privilege, husband-wife privilege like attorney-client, priest- parishioner.
There is no common law marriage in Missouri. So they`re not protected, what one said to the other, by the marital privilege. Whatever they`ve said to the other can come into the court of law, can come into a grand jury.
Everybody, we are taking your calls. Parents not suspects.
Out to Debbie in Georgia. Debbie, very quickly, what`s your question, dear?
DEBBIE, CALLER FROM GEORGIA: Hi, Nancy, I have a question and a quick comment. Why hasn`t baby Lisa`s --
GRACE: OK.
DEBBIE: Why hasn`t baby Lisa`s daddy shed any tears? And also, my comment is the flipping, the dancing, I`m loving it all. You`re my hero. And happy birthday. And I love you.
GRACE: Hey, Debbie in Georgia, thank you so much.
That question out to you, Jim Spellman. What about daddy not showing emotion? Have you noticed that? Is that true?
SPELLMAN: Yes, I think that`s true. I don`t know what to make of how people show emotion or how they carry their bodies or anything in this kind of grief. But not talking to the police, I know about that because every day the police tell us they need to interview them.
GRACE: Well, Jim Spellman, do you have children?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Everybody, I want to thank you so much from the bottom of my heart for your support, your love, e-mails, letters, phone calls, the votes on "Dancing with the Stars."
Tristan and I are still in it because of his hard work. You know, it`s 1 percent inspiration, 99 percent perspiration. But mostly because of you. We`ve made it so far to week 7 with our foxtrot.
Hours and hours spent getting it right and working on the group dance. Yes, I did a handstand. And again, thank you for sticking with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Nancy and Tristan. You`re safe, too.
GRACE: We worked so hard on this. This particular dance.
I stupidly demanded Tristan, give me a harder choreography, and then when he gave it to me I didn`t like it. It was too hard. A 9. A 9.
TRISTAN MACMANUS, NANCY GRACE`S DANCING PARTNER: Nancy is busy. I`ve sent her and asked her to work on next week.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Let`s stop and remember Army Private 1st Class Steven Tucker, just 19, Grapevine, Texas, killed Iraq. Awarded Bronze Star, Purple Heart, "Operation Enduring Freedom" medal. Loved traveling and Texas. Motto, don`t mess with Texas. Dreamed of a degree in kinesiology and becoming a sports medicine doctor. Leaves behind parents Charles and Rowina, brothers Michael, John and Justin.
Steven Tucker, American hero.
Thanks to our guests but especially to you. And tonight a happy birthday to Florida friend Sarah. She`s a pancreatic cancer nurse who loves Disney. Here`s her nephew Josh.
And happy 31st anniversary to Tristan`s parents, Carol and Paul. There they are with daughter Kelly.
Happy anniversary.
Everyone, I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.
END
