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ISSUES WITH JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL
Was Michael Jackson an Addict?
Aired October 27, 2011 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST (voice-over): Good evening. I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell. An explosive day in court. One of the biggest days of the entire Michael Jackson death trial. And we`ve got the defense anesthesiologist on the stand now.
But as soon as court ends for the day, I`m going to bring you an exclusive interview with the attorney for Dr. Arnie Klein. That is the doctor who gave Michael Jackson a lot of Demerol, which has suddenly became a huge factor in this case. We`re going to analyze it, and we`re going to get his reaction to what was revealed in court today about Michael Jackson`s Demerol use. That is right after this testimony ends.
Now, back into the courtroom.
WHITE: ... painful stimulus. I`m not really sure what that means when you`re talking about Lorazepam, because it`s not an analgesic. It doesn`t have pain-relieving or preventing properties.
But basically, what it illustrates is the two time points at which Dr. Murray administered bolus doses of Lorazepam, here at 2 a.m. and here again at 5 a.m. And it shows the modeled, if you will, idealized blood concentration curves which might result from 2-milligram doses. With the caveat that that`s an average or mean value. In the case of Mr. Jackson, it could have been different.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did Dr. Shafer also diagram the Midazolam levels?
WHITE: Yes, I believe so. At least I remember in the letter or the declaration that he submitted.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Your honor, I need just a minute. I thought I had that one set out.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You know, I`m going to ask for clarification. I show CC as a photo of a plastic bag.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Three Cs.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You said triple "C"? Triple "C," thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Your honor, I ask that this be a good time to take the afternoon break.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And for the whole evening, too.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: May I see counsel, please?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Recess and adjournment at this time. Mr. White, thank you for your testimony. Rather than keep you up here right now, I`m going to excuse you and thank you and ask you to follow all the admonitions. Please come back tomorrow.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. ROBERT WALDMAN, ADDICTION SPECIALIST: He used extensive large doses of Demerol all through April, all through early May and again at the end of May.
11:15 a.m., Demerol, 200 milligrams. 3:30 p.m., Demerol, 200 milligrams. 7 p.m., Demerol, 200 milligrams.
He was probably addicted to opioids.
Botox and Axilla for perspiration. Botox, this time to the groin.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Michael Jackson was suffering from the Demerol withdrawal.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He had a terrible case of the chills, was trembling, rambling, and obsessing.
WALDMAN: This is consistent with the development of tolerance.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Shocking revelations that another doctor, not defendant Dr. Conrad Murray, but another doctor gave Michael Jackson an enormous amount of Demerol.
Good evening, everyone. I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, coming to you live from Los Angeles, for what many feel was the most dramatic day of this trial yet. A stealth witness for the defense, an addiction specialist, gave truly explosive testimony about how much Demerol Michael Jackson was getting in the months before his death. And it was all based on medical records. Check this out.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WALDMAN: I see on the 1st and the 3rd, a total of 400 milligrams of Demerol.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On May 5, he received a total of 300 milligrams of Demerol.
WALDMAN: Correct. 11:15 a.m., Demerol, 200 milligrams and Midazolam, 1 milligram. Demerol, 200 milligrams -- 3:30 p.m., Demerol, 200 milligrams, Midazolam. 7 p.m., Demerol, 200 milligrams and Midazolam, 1 milligram.
He was probably addicted to opioids.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Was Michael Jackson in withdrawal from Demerol addiction at the time of his death? Did that give him insomnia and make him desperate? That`s the defense theory, anyway.
Michael`s Demerol use peaked in early May when he got 900 milligrams of Demerol in just three days, according to records released in court. All for Botox and Restylane treatments. Pundits say this evidence blows this case wide open.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DARREN KAVINOKY, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: When you`ve got Bob Waldman, who is now establishing Michael Jackson`s status as an addict, making that diagnosis, you get all the stuff that goes along with it. I think it`s a great day for the defense, potentially explosive information.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Was today a game changer for the defense? What are your theories? Give me a call: 1-877-JVM-SAYS. That`s 1-877-586-7297.
With me tonight, in an ISSUES exclusive, Garo Gazaran, the attorney for Dr. Arnie Klein, the doctor who administered the Demerol, according to the documents released -- the medical records released in court.
Garo, thank you so much for joining us tonight. I think a lot of people across America are wondering, why is Dr. Arnie Klein giving Botox and Restylane treatments, and giving Demerol for Botox and Restylane, which millions of Americans have had, including myself, without any Demerol, when Demerol is a very, very addictive, strong, mood-altering substance that has been compared to morphine?
GARO GAZARAN, ATTORNEY FOR DR. ARNIE KLEIN: Well, I think it`s important to, first and foremost, quote an old Armenian saying, "Experience is a fountain of wisdom." And when we talk about experience, Dr. Klein is the autonomy on experience.
I am holding in my hand a book that is a 1970 book...
GAZARAN: ... a book that is co-authored by Dr. Klein. It`s called "Drug Trip Abroad," which is an extensive research and commentary on drug addicts, not in the United States alone, but also Europe.
Now, and I will quote you from that book, Jane, and for your audience, "The people who Paradisali (ph)" -- this is a facility that he visited -- "in their own -- live in their own high atmosphere. They have good intentions, but they are as blind to the dangers and realities -- realities of their own position as the conservatives of the United States are to theirs. They say that marijuana is harmless. Although it is not a hard drug and should not be treated as such, its complete harmlessness has not been proven."
GAZARAN: That`s Dr. Klein.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Dr. Klein gave Michael Jackson...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: ... Demerol...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: ... which has been compared in strength to morphine, for Botox and Restylane treatments. Both of which I`ve had. I don`t do Botox any more, but I`ve had both of them. I never got anything that was mood-altering. I got, at most, a local anesthetic right around my mouth. Millions of people have had the same experience.
Why give Demerol for these procedures that millions of people have had without any mood-altering substances?
GAZARAN: Well, you know, the same reason why one gets laughing gas at the dental office and I do not. Some people get certain things to be put in a comfortable state for them to be worked on and others get different things, and yet some others get nothing.
When we talk about these records, Jane, and there`s a lot of reference into the month of may -- I`ve said this before. the month of May was a month that Dr. Klein was out of the country, and there`s another doctor that did most of the treatments. The important thing is, if you look at...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, but in April, was he out of the country in April?
GAZARAN: No, he was not out of the country in April.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I mean, in April -- on April 17, Michael got 200 milligrams of Demerol...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: ... then 100 milligrams of Demerol. Three hundred milligrams within a span of less than an hour.
GAZARAN: So, then, and compare that to June 16 and June 22, when he only got 100 milligrams of Demerol.
So what does that tell us? That tells us, given certain procedures and the length of procedures, certain amounts of narcotics are administered to put the patient in a particular comfortable state. And when it works, the procedure is completed. When it looks like the patient is not cooperating, more is given.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let me just say this. The FDA -- this is what they say about Demerol...
GAZARAN: Which Dr. Klein is FDA permission.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Demerol is a Scheduled II substance with an abuse liability similar to morphine. Demerol can be abused. This should be considered, when prescribing or dispensing Demerol in situations where the physician or pharmacist is concerned about an increased risk of misuse, abuse, or diversion.
We all know that Michael Jackson in 1993 said that he had developed an addiction to painkillers. Your doctor, according to what was in court today, is giving Demerol, something that`s been compared to morphine, to a guy who has a history of painkiller addiction, for Botox and Restylane.
GAZARAN: You know, you keep repeating Botox and Restylane, and you make it -- you make it sound like it`s a scratch. But you know, those needles into your lip and the needles under your eyelids are not going to be administered without any need for any medication. If you are needle phobic, if you have a very low tolerance for physical pain, and only a physician who is treating you for hours on end knows exactly what you need to be sedated.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: One last question. Michael Jackson was married to Debbie Rowe in 19 -- what, `96. Debbie Rowe used to be a nurse at Dr. Arnie Klein`s office. How long has Michael Jackson been going to Dr. Arnie Klein?
GAZARAN: I`m not going to discuss the length of the treatment for Michael Jackson...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: But, I mean, it goes back to the `90s. It goes back to the `90s.
GAZARAN: I have not seen records into the `90s, so I can`t comment on that.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK, well, he married Debbie Rowe, who used to be a nurse.
GAZARAN: But what is the point?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, the point is, how long has he been going and getting treatments, these kinds of treatments from Dr. Arnie Klein?
GAZARAN: Well, I don`t think that you have any records to support that he`s been getting these kinds of treatments. He`s been getting treatments as necessary, as asked for.
But you know something? Michael Jackson has never asked for Demerol. You know, other patients have also been treated and have been given, perhaps, Demerol. Demerol is not something specific and unique to Michael Jackson. And I still believe, despite what went on today, which I consider it a circus, this afternoon or this morning.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Those records were legit. Those were Dr. Arnie Klein`s records, were they not?
GAZARAN: They were not only legit, but as the defense expert suggested, there`s a gap. You know, when you don`t go to the physician, there`s no gap.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let me tell you something. Some people are saying that maybe Dr. Arnie Klein should be investigated. I`d like to give you an opportunity to respond.
GAZARAN: Well, Dr. Arnie Klein, along with other doctors, was looked at. And one may call it investigated. I met with the DEA. How is it that the DEA did not find it necessary to charge him with a crime?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: That is a very good question.
GAZARAN: At the end -- at the end of the day, because the man died of acute Propofol intoxication. All the medication in his house was in plain view of Dr. Conrad Murray, and he is the one that should have known better, quite frankly.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Garo, I want to thank you, because I gave you some hard questions there.
GAZARAN: That`s OK.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Thank you for coming on and facing the music, as it were. Thank you, sir.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Appreciate it.
All right. We`re taking your calls. On the other side, we`re going to talk to a dermatologist about the explosive developments in court today.
What do you think about how the defense is trying to prove their case and trying to exonerate Dr. Conrad Murray? Are they putting Michael Jackson on trial? More on the other side.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WALDMAN: I believe there`s evidence that he was dependent upon Demerol.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What about addicted?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ED CHERNOFF, CONRAD MURRAY`S LAWYER: Have you formed an opinion about whether or not by May 4, at least, or even earlier, that Michael Jackson was dependent on Demerol?
CHERNOFF: What is that opinion?
WALDMAN: I believe there is evidence that he was dependent upon Demerol.
CHERNOFF: What about addicted?
WALDMAN: Possibly. That he was probably addicted to opioids. Six weeks of very frequent high-dose use, I believe, would result in opioid dependence in any of us.
CHERNOFF: And you would consider this very high use?
WALDMAN: Very high.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: "Very high use," according to an addiction specialist for the defense, of Demerol by Michael Jackson, administered in the office of Dr. Arnie Klein.
We just talked to the attorney for Dr. Arnie Klein, who -- you just heard him. He was defending Dr. Arnie Klein`s records. But the records speak for themselves. Michael Jackson got 900 milligrams of Demerol, which has been compared in strength to morphine, in three days.
I`m here with an esteemed panel. Dr. Daniel Taheri, you are a dermatologist based out of Los Angeles.
Dr. Arnie Klein`s office gave Michael Jackson 200 plus 100 -- 300 Demerol within an hour. OK, 300 milligrams of Demerol. We`re also going to talk to addiction specialist Howard Samuels in a second. As a dermatologist, what do you make of this administration of Demerol for Botox and Restylane, which are basically injections to the face?
DR. DANIEL TAHERI, DERMATOLOGIST: Well, my opinion is, that`s unacceptable. I mean, I`ve never encountered anything of the sort. You know, I`ve given Botox, Restylane on a daily basis to thousands of patients. As you stated, millions of people get it on a daily basis, and I don`t think I`ve ever encountered anybody who was actually receiving an injection of Demerol to require the treatment.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Never -- you`ve never had -- you`ve never given anybody Demerol for Botox or Restylane?
TAHERI: No. Not even close.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: What would -- if you had to give somebody a Demerol injection for some kind of a plastic surgery facial procedure that`s not plastic surgery, what would the maximum dose that you consider acceptable?
TAHERI: In 15 years of practice, I`ve given Demerol twice, and both were for large-volume liposuction cases and both were 25 milligrams I.M.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wow. OK. Howard Samuels, addiction specialist, your thoughts on this?
HOWARD SAMUELS, ADDICTION SPECIALIST: Outrageous. Absolutely outrageous. You know, once again, the doctors, you know, I think they both need to be on trial.
I mean, Klein, to be able to do that to a patient who has a history of drug dependence and drug abuse, I mean, is a crime! I mean, I cannot believe that Klein or any other doctors would be doing this to their patients. It is outrageous, Jane.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Jennifer Jimenez, house manager of VH-1`s "Sober House," former cocaine user, your thoughts? You heard the attorney for Dr. Klein. He says the doctor did nothing wrong.
JENNIFER JIMENEZ, HOUSE MANAGER, VH-1`S "SOBER HOUSE": I`m sitting here, Kenny, who is doing -- who is the photojournalist here told me to breathe. I am so pissed off right now.
That attorney, shame on him, shame on the doctors. I`m just completely repulsed right now. How do you not know he`s an addict? He`s - - he`s opened up about it, Michael Jackson. I mean, a man died because of this, and now you`re going to excuse it because he needed to get Botox? I am so mad.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, but here`s the problem with all of this. The person on trial is Dr. Conrad Murray.
The Michael Jackson family -- we`ve got a couple of tweets we can throw up -- they`ve called, and they`re not happy with describing Michael Jackson as an addict.
Now, the prosecution on cross got this addiction specialist to admit that, based solely on the records of Dr. Klein, he could not call Michael Jackson an addict. But he did say that he was probably addicted to opioids. That was his opinion based on everything he knows about Michael Jackson.
More on the other side. We are going to continue to debate this extraordinary issue.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAEL JACKSON, POP SINGER: I love them because I didn`t have a childhood. I had no childhood. I feel their pain. I feel their hurt.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: That was the infamous audio recording of Michael Jackson that was played in court, but Michael did not get Demerol from Dr. Klein on May 10, which is the day that Dr. Conrad Murray made that recording. So we have to wonder, what did cause Michael Jackson`s slurring? And how is all this Demerol news that`s just come into court going to affect this case? Remember, it`s Dr. Conrad Murray on trial.
Straight out to the phone lines. Zorina, Canada, your question or thought, Zorina?
CALLER: Hi, Jane, how are you?
CALLER: My -- my question and thoughts is that that case was tried wrong, too. It would have been a different story. You know what? Michael Jackson is not on trial. Dr. Conrad Murray is on trial. But it seems as though Michael is on trial here.
And another point I want to bring up is Michael Jackson, they said he`s a drug addict, he is on drugs. All these doctors were treating Michael for years. Nobody killed him! As soon as Murray came on board, bop, he died!
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right, well, these are excellent points. Howard Samuels, what does it matter, really, whether or not Dr. Arnie Klein gave him way too much Demerol, according to some experts, and may have hooked Michael Jackson on Demerol, according to the defense expert, who says that he feels that he developed a dependency, at the very least, although they were arguing about whether or not he`s an addict. What difference does it make? Dr. Conrad Murray`s on trial.
SAMUELS: Well, I think it makes a difference, and it just proves that Michael Jackson was an addict, OK? And with all the drugs that were found in his system when he died, which were all benzos, no opioids, what that probably means is that Dr. Conrad Murray was detoxing him with benzos to get off the opioids. That`s what it`s looking like. And the slurring of the words is easily caused by a tremendous amount of benzos in the system.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Look, the family of Michael Jackson has gotten very upset with me, and Jermaine has tweeted me -- and we`re going to show those tweets again --several times, and said, "Hey, just because you, Jane, are a recovering alcoholic, don`t project your own addiction onto the situation." They are very upset.
Look: "Based on Klein med records, defense`s own experts said Michael Jackson probably not addicted." Well, that`s not exactly what he said. He said that he thought he was probably hooked on opioids, but he couldn`t tell that he was an addict just based on records alone.
What`s your response to the family, very upset that we`re even discussing this?
SAMUELS: Well, I think it`s very sad. It`s so obvious the family is in denial. I mean, a tremendous amount of denial about the true state of their brother. I mean, Michael Jackson, without question, with all the drugs that were not only found in his system, but at the scene of the crime, show that he was an addict. Without question. I mean, it`s ridiculous that they would be in so much denial. I don`t understand that.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Do you think Dr. Arnie Klein should be scrutinized -- and you`re a dermatologist. He`s a dermatologist. Do you think that he should be scrutinized and the government should look at him for what he`s prescribed here, or his office has given Michael Jackson?
TAHERI: Put it this way. I would never put myself in that position. To give Demerol to a patient in such high doses, you`re absolutely doing that patient a disservice. There is no question about it. Demerol wears off. You need higher dosages, higher dosages. You`re getting him hooked on a drug. There`s no doubt about it.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: More when we come right back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FRANK DELEO, MICHAEL JACKSON`S MANAGER: Dr. Murray, it`s Frank Deleo, Michael`s manager. Would you please call me? I`m sure you`re aware he had an episode last night. He`s sick. Today`s Saturday; tomorrow I`m on my way back. I`m not going to continue my trip.
You know, I think you need to get a blood test on him today. We`ve got to see what he`s doing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Michael Jackson`s manager, Frank Deleo, left that voice mail for Dr. Conrad Murray Saturday, June 20th, 2009, about five days before Michael Jackson`s tragic death.
We are very delighted to have with us tonight somebody who knows Michael Jackson very, very well; the man who successfully defended Michael Jackson during Michael Jackson`s child molestation case. And I am talking about the one and only attorney Tom Mesereau. Tom, thank you for being here tonight; and this has been a very difficult day for me, personally.
I am a recovering alcoholic, with 16 years of sobriety, so I do bring that to the table. That does put a certain -- a pair of glasses on my eyes, because I do see things through the context of addiction. And then we hear in court that Dr. Arnie Klein, who Michael has known for a long time. Remember, the woman he married, Debbie Rowe, was Dr. Klein`s nurse, and he married her in 1996. That Dr. Arnie Klein and his office have been giving Michael Jackson what others -- other dermatologists and other experts have described as huge doses of Demerol for botox and Restylane, treatments that I personally have had, that I have had with no mood- altering substances, that many Americans have had with no mood-altering substances. In one day, 300 milligrams. In three days, 900 milligrams of Demerol which has been compared in strength to morphine.
What do you make of it? Because you were there with Michael Jackson during the toughest times of his life.
TOM MESEREAU, MICHAEL JACKSON`S FORMER LAWYER: Well, I met him approximately nine months before the trial started. I worked with him intensely during those nine months, with my law firm partner, Susan Yu (ph), who is my co-counsel. We worked with him for five months during that trial very intensely.
I never saw him addicted to anything. I never saw him inarticulate or uncooperative. He was always lucid and clear with me. I never saw him take a drug of any kind. And I`m not prepared to say he was an addict based on my experiences because he wasn`t.
He was working very diligently and intelligently and clearly with Susan and I as we prepared the defense to his criminal case. Those are my direct experiences. I never saw an addicted person.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: One of the things that`s so complex about Michael Jackson, and I`m a huge fan of his. I think he is and was a musical genius and with the musical greats of all time, so I have no axe to grind. But part of it is that you start looking at his history, the fact that in 1993, he did say that he was addicted to painkillers. And there are those, including myself, who have always believe once an addict, always an addict and you`re just in recovery.
And then there are things like what happened with the Mickey Fine Pharmacy. There was a lawsuit involving $100,000 of prescription pills or drugs that he ordered that he did not pay for, allegedly, and they ended up settling out of court. The Mickey Fine Pharmacy is very next door, very close to the offices of Dr. Arnie Klein.
And now you have these medical records showing that Dr. Arnie Klein gave him Demerol, which is a highly addictive substance. That`s why it`s a controlled substance. And he even wrote a song about Demerol, called "Morphine" -- Michael Jackson did. So how do you combine those two disparate portraits?
MESEREAU: Well, again, my experiences are my own. I never saw an addict. And the person I worked with could not have been addicted to anything, because he was so clear and articulate and cooperative with me. And this was a tough period.
This was a period where you would have expected him to want some, you know, sleeping medication or some anti-anxiety medication, or antidepressant medication. Anyone in that position usually goes to a position and gets something.
Now, was he dependent as opposed to an addict? I don`t really know. All I can tell you is I never saw an addict, that I was representing, in Michael Jackson. I never saw a person who couldn`t articulate, couldn`t think clearly, couldn`t respond, couldn`t cooperate. He would call me at 3:00 in the morning. He would call me at 4:00 in the morning, he would call Susan Yu, you know, my law partner, at 3:00 or 4:00 in the morning; he was always lucid and always clear. So as far as the evidence you`re describing, does that make him an addict if it`s true? I don`t know. I`m not the expert.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Look, that`s a word. And we could sit here and disagree and have an argument over semantics, but how do you explain why he would want these huge quantities of Demerol for botox and Restylane?
MESEREAU: Well, how do you explain why a physician would give him this kind of medication, if it`s inappropriate? I`m not the physician and I`m not the expert. But I think whatever these physicians actually did should be looked at very closely.
Now, none of this exonerates Dr. Conrad Murray for giving him Propofol in the home under those horrendous conditions. I mean we`re talking about Demerol. We`re talking about pain medication. What about what Conrad Murray did? He`s the one on trial, as far as I`m concerned.
And whether Michael Jackson was addicted or not, whether he was dependent or not, whether he needed help or not, it was Dr. Murray`s professional obligation to treat him properly. Not to have Propofol in the home, not to give it to him without proper equipment or trained personnel, not to leave him alone. Not to lie to paramedics. Not to lie to police. Not to lie to hospital personnel. None of this exonerates Conrad Murray, as far as I`m concerned.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, there are those who say that Dr. Arnie Klein should be investigated, given what was revealed in court today, the amounts of Demerol he gave Michael Jackson. Again, a controlled substance that is, by the FDA`s own definition, highly addictive. Do you think Dr. Arnie Klein should be investigated?
MESEREAU: I don`t know enough about the evidence to be honest with you. I did hear what was brought up in court today. I don`t know Dr. Klein`s position, and I don`t know what he really did or not. My understanding was there was a question raised in court as to whether the records were even authentic. I just don`t know.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, he had the attorney for Dr. Arnie Klein on just a little while ago, Garo Ghazarian, and he did not dispute the records.
Look, we can dance around it. The fact is, millions of Americans have had botox and Restylane treatments. They`re injections to your face. I`ve had them. I`m not proud to sit here and say that. I mean, I don`t care one way or another, really. I stopped taking botox. But I didn`t have any mood-altering medication. At the most, for Restylane, you have a little local anesthetic around your face that is not mood-altering that just makes the little -- the prick of the needle -- you don`t feel it.
But I mean let`s be real. The idea of giving Demerol for that is akin to giving, in some eyes, heroin for a root canal.
MESEREAU: Well, based on what was said in court today, it doesn`t sound appropriate, but I don`t know Dr. Klein`s position and I don`t know what he really gave him and what the purposes were. I`ve never had botox, but in my family, there was a history of alcoholism, but the alcoholics drank alcohol.
I never saw Michael Jackson take anything. I just never did. Nor did he seem to be acting as if he had taken something.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Ok. And I`m not trying to put you on the spot, Tom. I mean, I appreciate you being here. And we`d actually scheduled this interview before this day, which was perhaps the most controversial day of the trial, on some levels.
But when somebody says, hey, you`ve got like a $100,000 bill at Mickey Fine Pharmacy for prescriptions, other people would draw a conclusion, well, then the person who has used 19 aliases to get prescription drugs, which is what the estimates are that Michael Jackson used, 19 aliases, has a problem on some level.
MESEREAU: Well, the information you`ve just described is disturbing, but what does it have to do with contract Murray -- Dr. Murray. What does it have to do with Propofol? What does it have to do with him not being candid with paramedics who arrived to try to revive him? It has nothing to do with it, as far as I`m concerned.
It`s the defense trying to devalue Michael Jackson, demean him, trying to make him look like a hopeless addict who was making his own decisions, and trying to exonerate their client. And I hope it doesn`t work.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: How do you think the defense and prosecution are doing? Give us a grade for each side.
MESEREAU: The prosecution gave a very strong, compelling, clear, logical case, and they made things very understandable for this jury. The defense had to sit there patiently, as they always do, and get their turn to tell their story.
These are professional advocates. They`re doing a very aggressive job for their client which they`re supposed to do. I don`t think their cross- examination was terribly effective on the prosecution witnesses. And I think the witnesses they`re calling are a mixed bag. You know, they`re giving them some of the things they want, but they`re also paying a price for all of them.
I think in the end, the focus is going to be on what Conrad Murray did to Michael Jackson, not what other doctors did or whatever weaknesses Michael Jackson may have had.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Look -- and we`re going to show some video of Michael Jackson as we talk about this.
Again, I have no desire to say anything that is unflattering about Michael Jackson. I was very fair, and I think that`s one of the reasons you talked to me when we covered the Michael Jackson child molestation trial, when a lot of people said, oh, he`s going to be convicted, I said, I have no idea. I don`t know. And it turns out he was acquitted on all counts. And a lot of the things that people said about him were not true and were very mean and nasty.
But I also do a disservice to myself, as a person who focuses on recovery, who`s written two books on recovery, not to discuss the issue of addiction if it`s staring us in the face in court, with an addiction specialist saying in his opinion Michael Jackson had developed a dependency on opiates.
So my concern, Tom, is that by not discussing it or by glossing over it, are we, in essence become part of the problem because America has a huge addiction problem. More people are OD`ing from prescription drugs, legal drugs, than they are from illegal drugs.
MESEREAU: Well, there was an article in the "L.A. Times" recently that more Americans are dying from prescription drugs than car accidents, which was the first time in history that`s ever been documented. So I completely sympathize with your concerns.
What I don`t want is for your concerns to obscure what the real issue in this case is, as what Dr. Conrad Murray did to Michael Jackson in his own home with a dangerous agent called Propofol. What he did was absolutely outrageous. He didn`t know how to use it. He didn`t use it properly. He didn`t have heart-monitoring equipment, breathing equipment. He didn`t have a trained anesthesiologist. He left it all around in Michael Jackson`s room. And he lied to paramedics, as far as I`m concerned, who wanted to know what Michael had taken so they could try to revive him.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Ten seconds. Do you think Dr. Conrad Murray is going to get convicted? Yes or no.
MESEREAU: You never know what a jury is going to do, you really don`t.
MESEREAU: But I think the prosecution has presented a very strong case.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Thank you, Tom Mesereau, you`re a doll for coming on.
And again, my favorite attorney on the planet, I have to say. I`ve seen a lot of them. We`ll be right back.
MESEREAU: Thank you.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Michael Lohan, the father of actress Lindsay Lohan, police arresting him.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: What the heck went down with Michael Lohan?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, it`s yet another allegation of domestic violence.
MICHAEL LOHAN, FATHER OF LINDSAY LOHAN: I`m a sucker.
JIM MORET, CHIEF CORRESPONDENT, "INSIDE EDITION": They allegedly had been fighting over sex.
M. LOHAN: I was wrong.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He jumped all the way from a third floor balcony, trying to just get away from police.
M. LOHAN: I`m an idiot.
She needs to get help. It`s obvious that there`s severe addiction problems.
LINDSAY LOHAN, ACTRESS: It`s my career, and something I`ve worked for my entire life.
M. LOHAN: You can`t dance with the devil and expect to go home with Jesus.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wow. More Lohan family dramarama: Lindsay wrapping up her million-dollar four-day naked photo shoot with "Playboy"; her dad headed back to the slammer again. He may be trying to get his daughter on the straight and narrow but now some reports claim -- well, they`re asking, did he fall off the wagon himself? We`re going to talk to someone who saw him in the last couple of nights (INAUDIBLE).
Just a few days ago, we told you Michael was arrested for allegedly giving these bruises to his on-again, off-again girlfriend, Kate Majors. She called the cops saying he threatened to hurt her because she refused to give him oral sex. Not making this stuff up.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What`s going on?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My ex-fiance and I have an order of protection. Please get here. Please.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And he`s there now?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I can`t talk. Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, can you answer yes or no questions?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I can`t. I can`t do that. I can`t even do this.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why can`t you do that, ma`am?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Because I`m afraid of him. He`s going to come in here and hit me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: But by last night, Michael had bonded out of jail and then he was given very specific instructions by the judge. Listen to the judge.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WALTER HEINRICH, JUDGE: Does your client have a restraining order out of Sarasota?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I am aware that there is a restraining order. I believe he was served --
HEINRICH: Well then, if he had an invitation to come up here, he shouldn`t have come up here. He`s not allowed to come up here. He`s not allowed to be around her. Does he know how to read?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, your honor.
HEINRICH: Well, he better understand, if you even dream about her and you violate my order, you will go to jail.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Ok. Then despite all that, Michael Lohan repeatedly called Kate Majors, his girlfriend, last night, after that warning from the judge. Police say, well, they went, then, to Michael`s motel to re-arrest him, but he jumped out of a third-floor balcony and tried to hide in a tree, and may have hurt or even broken his foot.
Now, Michael says, oh, this is all a big misunderstanding.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
M. LOHAN: She keeps doing this. She needs help. She calls me and I`m a sucker. I call back and -- I`m an idiot.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So the problem is hers or yours?
M. LOHAN: Well, she keeps going -- she was getting evicted from the apartment. She called up and she said she needed help. So -- she called up.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. He says he`s an idiot. Michael, I got to agree with you there.
Why don`t you give me a call? What do you think? 1-877-JVM-SAYS, 1- 877-586-7297.
Straight out to Dylan Howard, senior executive editor of "Star" magazine and RadarOnline; you`ve got some breaking news about this bizarre father/daughter duo. What is it?
DYLAN HOWARD, SENIOR EXECUTIVE EDITOR, RADARONLINE: Well, Jane, you couldn`t write a fictitious script that would parody exactly what took place last night. Michael Lohan is in deep trouble. He remains under police custody, albeit in a hospital, where they`re treating him for a suspected broken foot.
But he is in a world of pain right now on multiple levels. He`s facing the wrath of a judge who gave him explicit instructions not to go anywhere near Kate Major. And then, of course, as you saw there with Michael Lohan being escorted into the back of a police fan, he most certainly admitted that he made those attempts to contact her and also indicated that he was stupid and an idiot.
At the same time, of course, we know that Lindsay Lohan here in California is facing a judge for her own issues, and after wrapping up a "Playboy" nude photo shoot, she is telling friends that she wants her father to have nothing to do with her.
And you`ve got to understand from Lindsay`s perspective, everything that Michael said has seemingly been undercut and undervalued now by his actions. Police say that both booze and drugs were involved in Michael`s case. Now, we don`t know exactly what kind of drugs, but when he`s being vocal about Lindsay Lohan, he seems to be somewhat hypocritical now, given what we`ve seen in the last 24 to 48 hours, Jane.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, interesting. Because we did have him right here on ISSUES, and he was saying he was concerned that his daughter might be falling off the wagon and all worried about her.
Now, you`re right, there are reports claiming that maybe he`s fallen off the wagon. I will say this. We spoke to a bartender who was watching him, serving him and watching him do karaoke last night, I think it was, right? Last night.
HOWARD: It was.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And the bartender said he was drinking water. Yes, the bartender says he was drinking water. I don`t know -- I wasn`t there. But the bartender says he was just being foolish. Sometimes when I`ve karaoked sober, I`ve been mistaken for somebody who`s under the influence, but I`m not. I`m just a very, very bad, off-key singer at times.
Let`s hope he hasn`t fall off the wagon, because he did fall off out a third-floor the wagon. Some analysis from addiction specialists in one moment.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
M. LOHAN: Look, I was there myself years ago. When I worked on Wall Street and I was out partying the night before, I didn`t want to go to work. I would make up an excuse.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Michael Lohan, arrested over and over again, and the week isn`t even over yet.
Addiction specialist Jennifer Gimenez, house manager of VH-1`s "Sober House", recovering cocaine user; even if Michael Lohan is technically sober, is he emotionally sober, Jennifer?
JENNIFER GIMENEZ, HOUSE MANAGER, VH-1 "SOBER HOUSE": I have to say at this point, I don`t think that he`s emotionally sober. You know, I got to spend 21 days with Michael Lohan on "Celebrity Rehab". That relationship they had, Late and Michael, is so toxic and volatile. It was so harmful for both of them. It saddens me deeply.
GIMENEZ: So you know Michael Lohan. What`s his problem?
GIMENEZ: Michael Lohan came on "Celebrity Rehab" and he admitted he had a drinking problem and drug problem as well. But, you know, sometimes we can stop -- put down the drugs and alcohol and we start obsessing and becoming addicted to other things. Obviously this relationship had become a priority for Michael at this point. I just think it`s such a --
VELEZ-MITCHELL: So an addiction.
GIMENEZ: Yes. Absolutely. I think that there`s a lot of obsession going on there.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Addiction specialist, Howard Samuels, is Michael Lohan addicted now to Kate Majors?
HOWARD SAMUELS, FOUNDER AND CEO, "THE HILLS TREATMENT CENTER: Well, probably. And it definitely is true. I definitely think what Jennifer was saying is absolutely true.
But there are different degrees of obsession. I mean this is so of the top, to be arrested a couple of times, with the judge threatening you. For him to do this, I can`t believe he didn`t relapse. I mean I cannot believe he did this sober even if he`s totally addicted to his girlfriend. Because the violence and the arrogance and the rules don`t apply to me, you`ve got to be drunk to really do something like this. I mean, it`s so embarrassing.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: The apple doesn`t fall far from the hotel balcony, as it were.
All right. Shelley, California, your question or thought, Shelley?
SHELLEY, CALIFORNIA (via telephone): Like you said, I am from California. But the judicial system in California is so pro-woman. Even if a woman, regardless of the restraining order, says, oh, please come help me, which I`ve seen it done, and the man will go over and say, ok, we have the restraining order, I`m going to help you. And then the woman doesn`t get the reaction, maybe a kiss, or whatever, and she`ll whip out and start attacking the man.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Shelley, I never want to blame the victim, but Dylan Howard, I have to ask you, after the restraining order, wasn`t there a point at which Kate Majors allegedly let him in?
HOWARD: There was. And there`s a pattern of behavior here between Michael Lohan and Kate Major that must be placed -- that must be said to place this into some context. Indeed Kate Major has claimed domestic abuse against Michael Lohan that have not materialized through the judicial system. And whilst we`re not suggesting that that may be the case in this instance, certainly there`s a repeat pattern of behavior whereby claims of domestic violence are leveled against Michael Lohan, criminal charges are either laid or a complaint he`s made and he goes through the justice system. Or some of those cases have not materialized.
So let`s put that into some perspective. Michael Lohan claims that indeed he was set up -- set up by Kate Majors. She made these calls to him, in order to provoke him. But according to the courts and the police reports --
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. More on the other side; we`ll be right back.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: "Sober House" manager, Jennifer Gimenez what advice would you give to Michael Lohan? You know him.
GIMENEZ: I would tell Michael to, once he gets out of jail, to definitely dive into the program. To completely abstain from Kate and to deal with his issues and get better; get better inside and out.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: What advice would you give to Lindsay Lohan?
GIMENEZ: Oh, my god. That you don`t have to follow in the steps of your parents and that there is hope out there. And that you can definitely overcome this. And literally just get help. Everyone, please get help here. It`s such a tragic family, to see them go down like this. They can definitely come on the other side in a better light, I hope.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Seeing Michael`s behavior, I do have to say I have a lot more compassion for Lindsay Lohan. We can never judge anybody unless we`ve walked in their shoes and I kind of feel like I`ve walked in their shoes a little bit.
Thank you, Jennifer.
"NANCY GRACE" up next.