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Nancy Grace
Cell Phone Call Deepens Baby Lisa Mystery
Aired October 31, 2011 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, GUEST HOST: Breaking news tonight out of America`s heartland in the search for 10-month-old baby Lisa, reported missing from her own crib in the dead of night. New exclusive details surface as we trace one of the family`s cell phones, stolen the very night baby Lisa vanishes. A mystery call comes from that stolen cell phone the very night baby Lisa is kidnapped. And joining us live tonight, the woman who got that call.
Also, there`s more stunning developments linked to multiple sightings of a man carrying a baby just three miles from the crime scene the day baby Lisa is reported missing. As footprint evidence from a neighbor`s back yard emerges, is this all connected to the disappearance of 10-month-old baby Lisa?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Who are you talking to?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why in the world would she stall?
DEBORAH BRADLEY, MOTHER: The only thing I can think of is...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) stranger breaking into the house.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think she was stolen from that home.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Reward`s up to over $100,000.
BRADLEY: You know, maybe somebody wanted a baby!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I thought it was just, you know, a guy with a baby.
GRACE: A phone call was made out on that cell phone in the early morning hours after baby Lisa disappeared.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Taking baby Lisa.
BRADLEY: (INAUDIBLE)
She`s a little girl. She`s (INAUDIBLE) family
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And then I heard on the news that it was a kidnapping.
-- kidnapping...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is a very rare event in America.
GRACE: This case is still very, very hot.
BRADLEY: (INAUDIBLE) she means everything to my boys!
GRACE: When one child gets stolen, kidnapped out of the home while Mommy`s passed out drunk...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Good evening. Jane Velez-Mitchell, in tonight for Nancy Grace. The search goes on for 10-month-old baby Lisa, reported missing from her own crib.
Straight out to CNN correspondent Jim Spellman, live on the scene. Jim, you`ve been doing some excellent reporting. What can you tell us about new details you`ve learned in this extraordinary investigation?
JIM SPELLMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, the first thing that we learned was really shocking. This phone, one of the three phones that was taken the same night that Deborah Bradley says that baby Lisa was taken -- we know that a phone call had been made from those. We learned yesterday that the woman, Megan Wright (ph), who received that phone call, that 50- second phone call, is the ex-girlfriend of the man known as Jersey, John Panco (ph), kind of a homeless drifter who did yard work and things like that for people in the neighborhood. So to connect those two people was really stunning to me, Jane.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Absolutely. And we have an exclusive interview tonight with Mary Hurt. She is a neighbor of Lisa`s family. Police, I understand, checked her property for suspicious footprints.
Mary, first of all, thank you for joining us tonight. I know you are here to be of service in the frantic effort to find this adorable, precious, helpless child. What do you know about this man known as Jersey? Police say he is not a suspect in baby Lisa`s disappearance. However, you have some absolutely extraordinary information about what happened that night, the night the child disappeared, and what you saw. Tell us.
MARY HURT, NEIGHBOR (via telephone): Well, Jersey did handyman work for our next-door neighbor that lives, obviously, next door to us. And he was around a lot and we got to know him as an acquaintance. And he, you know, talked to us on many occasions.
And our neighbor told us that the night that that baby went missing, the man who was seen coming up the street, came and went on our property and through our next door neighbor`s gate and up -- you know, or going up towards -- there`s a hill that goes up towards some town homes that are behind us.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, what do you know about Jersey? What are your thoughts about him? I understand that he is behind bars on a burglary charge of some sort. But again, he`s not considered a suspect in this case. But do you have any thoughts about him, his character, his personality?
HURT: Well, he definitely was suspicious and kind of shady, I would say. He kind of comes out of nowhere. He never is specific on where he`s been or where he`s going. You kind of see him around the neighborhood and just pop in and talk. He was always friendly, but he definitely let us know in the last probably week before all of this happened that he was wanted for an outstanding warrant that he had for his arrest, which was kind of a shock to us. So definitely...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Did you ever see him with the woman who was apparently at one point his girlfriend, who says that she got a call from the phone that was stolen at the very same time, reportedly, purportedly that the child was taken from the home?
HURT: Yes. I`ve actually spoken to her, as well. She was often at the neighbor`s house, hanging out with him. And the neighbor had taken her home a couple times. So she was definitely around. I definitely saw her.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And how do you know you saw her? Is it because of her hair color, because she has a distinctive hair color?
HURT: Well, her hair color was different then. But you talk to (INAUDIBLE) you can see the facial -- you know, I`ve seen pictures of her in the media since then. And as soon as I saw her I was, like, That is his girlfriend because I already -- we already knew her name and her age and it all fit. And seeing a picture of her on the news, definitely, it was her. But she has since changed -- I mean, her hair was not pink when she was hanging around at that house.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right, well, I want to go back to Jim Spellman because we have to get some of the complicated facts of this laid out, and then we can get analysis from all of our many expert guests tonight. The fascinating thing about this is that the call happened between 8:00 and 8:00. Now, take us through the timeline because, OK, the mother of the missing child, Deborah Bradley, goes and gets wine, right? And then she comes home, and she says she puts the child in the crib at about 6:40, and then she`s drinking with a neighbor until about 10:30 at night.
And now we`re hearing that, Wait a second, this phone that was purportedly stolen, the call goes out between 8:00 and 8:30. So that would belie the whole idea that the phone was stolen after she went to sleep at 10:30, if the call is made between 8:00 and 8:30. Jim, what do you make of it?
SPELLMAN: Yes. It`s weird. It`s hard to really draw any conclusions from all these things. But when you look at that timeline -- baby goes down at 6:40, call -- 8:00 to 8:30 is the call to the phone. About 12:15 is the sighting of a person with a baby on the street, who then hangs a left into the yard that is Mary`s yard and goes into this back yard. Then right behind that back yard is a dumpster. At 2:30 in the morning, a dumpster fire is reported in that very dumpster. Shortly thereafter, right around that time, there`s video at the BP gas station. Then around 4:00 o`clock, a couple of miles away, is the final sighting of the evening of a person carrying a baby by the man on the motorcycle.
So there`s lots of stuff and lots geography to tie them together, but it is really hard to tell what it all, if anything, means and how it might connect to Deborah Bradley, Jeremy or baby Lisa.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Pat Brown, criminal profiler, we can`t draw conclusions, but it`s pretty bizarre. I mean, just laying out the facts of this, it`s bizarre that a child is stolen from a home. Well, the mother had at least five glasses of wine, approximately, and may have been also taking anti-anxiety meds, and so she doesn`t necessarily know what happened. So there`s that factor. Was she in a blackout?
PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER: That`s not a factor, Jane.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: But then you have...
BROWN: Jane, Jane, that`s not a factor. There is no proof of that`s how much she drank. She simply claimed she drank that much. We don`t know. She may have been drunk, she may not have been drunk.
What we do know is that her stories continue not to add up. And it`s like a jigsaw puzzle. As we get all these bits and pieces, eventually, the story is going to come out, and it`s not going to be a story of a kidnapping. I just can`t believe that with all the pieces that we have so far.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, one of those pieces, Bradford Cohen, defense attorney, is that cadaver dogs hit on a piece of carpet on the floor of the mom`s bedroom. Now, the mom says she passed out, went to sleep, whatever you want to call it, at about 10:30 at night. She says she had a little kitten she rescued along with at least one of her sons. There were two other boys in the house, 5 or 6 and 8. And so they`re sleeping there.
And then the husband -- or not the husband, they`re not married. She has another husband who`s serving in the military. The father of this child comes home at 4:00 in the morning and discovers the lights on and the door open, or the door unlocked, I should say, the window open, the screen kicked in, and says, What the heck`s going on? And she jumps out of bed.
So now, when you add, Bradford Cohen, all these other pieces -- this homeless man who is in the area, allegedly, perhaps, his ex-girlfriend, the lady with the pink hair who gets the phone call from the phone that was purportedly stolen from the house, what do you make of it?
BRADFORD COHEN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, in terms of the cadaver dog, they`re not 100 percent reliable. Don`t forget cadaver dogs hit on -- on - - and I don`t want to sound gross, especially on Halloween, but you know, they hit on rotting meat, generally. In terms of, like, even during 9/11, they went to a meat shop at one point during 9/11 when they were looking for cadavers. That`s not 100 percent.
We don`t know what was on that floor, and we don`t know if it was human or not human. I know there`s arguments that say they only smell human. That`s not necessarily true. That`s the first part.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right, so you`re saying...
COHEN: And second part is, if she...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: ... that the cadaver dog...
COHEN: ... so drunk, how could she pull this off?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: ... might not be accurate. Go ahead.
COHEN: Yes. That`s 100 percent. But if she`s so drunk, how is she going to pull this off? How is she then sleeping when the husband comes home? There`s a lot of things that might not make sense in terms of pointing to guilt to her, as opposed to pointing to that she`s completely innocent. We have no idea what`s going on.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well...
COHEN: So for the profiler to say they think that her story doesn`t add up -- that may be true, but there`s also things that point to say that she`s not guilty by her story not adding up.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Woodrow Tripp, first she said she thought that she last saw the child at 10:30. Then there was a new story -- I`m not saying she`s changing her story. We just heard a new story that she put the child away at 6:40, but that she went to sleep at 10:30.
Now we`re hearing that this mystery phone call was made at 8:00 -- between 8:00 and 8:30. That would be before the mother goes to sleep. How could the baby and the phones be stolen out from under the mother`s nose before she goes to sleep, and a phone call made from that phone by a purported abductor, when, by her own account, she has not gone to sleep yet? She`s still drinking with the neighbor outside on the stoop.
WOODROW TRIPP, FMR. POLICE COMMANDER, POLYGRAPH EXPERT: Well, Jane, based on everything, as we`ve already seen, you want to take odds on her story will now change again as to the timeline? It`s changed each and every time to fit the circumstance of what she`s been presented with. So I wouldn`t want to take odds on it that it`s not going to change again. And at this point, I`m pretty sure that it will.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Well, we want to find this precious child. Look at that innocent face. Look at that beautiful little child. She`s an innocent. She has done nothing, nothing wrong.
It`s season 13 of "Dancing With the Stars," on a much brighter note, our very own Nancy Grace dancing for a very important cause, children, the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. Nancy is dancing the jive tonight. So be sure to vote. You can vote multiple times for Nancy and her amazing dancing partner, Tristan MacManus. Everybody here at the NANCY GRACE show says, Good luck, Nancy, because we know you can win this thing! We`re going to vote for you.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Baby Lisa Irwin still missing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A bizarre case.
BRADLEY: Call the tips hotline if you know where she`s at!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`s been missing for almost a month, and we have brand-new developments.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They say they are exhausted.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nobody`s sleeping. Nobody`s eating.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The neighbor who lives in this white house saw a man walking up this hill carrying a baby like this.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was looking at the gentleman because he was walking up that way.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Investigators took molds of footprints right here along this flat area.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When you`re that tired, you`re bound to make itty, bitty mistakes in timelines.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police begging for information, and they`re getting cancellation.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There`s only one story that never changes, and that`s the truth.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is it true that you`re getting paid to avoid local reporters?
BRADLEY: Not at all.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Then why won`t you talk to us?
BRADLEY: Because we`re grieving.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: You may have heard it there. She says, Because I`m grieving. And a number of people immediately wondered, why is she grieving when we are searching for her child and there is no word at this point, official or otherwise, that the child is deceased?
I want to bring in Dr. Helen Morrison, forensic psychiatrist, author of "My Life Among the Serial Killers." What do you make of her use of the term "grieving"?
DR. HELEN MORRISON, FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, grief can mean many things to many people. Grief can come with loss, and they have lost this child. We don`t know the circumstances of what loss means, but we know that the child is gone. And so grieving has to be related not only to the possibility of death, but also to the fact that this child is not there any longer.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right, I think what you`re saying is give her a pass on saying that. That may have just been a term (SIC) of phrase she used that is not signifying anything more than she`s sad and she`s really sad.
Let`s go the phone lines. They are lighting up. Krystal, New Jersey. Your question or thought, Krystal?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I love you and Nancy. Thanks for everything you do. I just wanted to say, God forbid if one of my boys was missing, I would be at the mercy of the police. Lock me up. Do anything you have to do. Bring my child home. Doesn`t the lack of that speak something about the parents, that they are not throwing themselves out there and exposing themselves to bring that gorgeous baby home? Thank you, Jane.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, thank you. Excellent question. Jim Spellman - - or actually, I`ll put this out to Alexis Tereszcuk, senior reporter, Radaronline. There has been a lot of back and forth about whether the two boys who were in the home that night, who apparently heard a noise at one point, will be allowed to be interviewed by police, even if it`s using a child services expert. What is the latest?
ALEXIS TERESZCUK, RADARONLINE.COM: Well, the latest is that the family attorney, Joe Tacopina, says that they will be meeting with the investigators, the little boys will. He said he`s not going to tell us when it is, but they are going have that meeting.
This has been a big problem for the police. They want to talk to these children. They won`t question them themselves. They`re going to bring in a specialist who knows how to deal with children and how to get the right responses out of them. But they feel like this is so important to the investigation. They were there. They maybe know something.
But the family has put up roadblocks. The mom has said she hasn`t even asked them about what happened because she doesn`t want to traumatize them any more. So there are definitely some -- this is something the police want, but the family so far has said no. However, the attorney says now it is going to happen.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, but didn`t they say that it was going to happen before? I remember having this -- this is like deja vu all over again, as they say. I mean, last week, we talked about, Oh, yes, the family`s going to allow it, and then they pulled back at the last second, didn`t they.
TERESZCUK: You`re absolutely right. There were two attorneys on board last week. The local attorney, who has since been fired, said, Yes, we`re going to do the meeting. And then she said, You know what? I did some research and I`ve decided that nothing good can come from this meeting, so I`m fully canceling it, while the attorney who was on originally, Tacopina, says it`s going to happen. There`s been a lot of back and forth. There`ve been some changes in -- in staff for the family. They don`t -- they`re not even staying at the same location. So this is what the police want, and they may get it soon.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We know there was a report of a man at around 12:15 that walked up the street and stepped into your yard.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now, the next day, we understand, investigators were here.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Come over to this house and did some footprinting because there was a sprinkler that happened to be on in that yard that made it moist over here, whereas the rest of the ground was dry.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRADLEY: Give her her bottle and made sure her binky was in her crib in case she needed it and...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There`s something really odd about this! She was so drunk...
BRADLEY: She sleeps with her Barney and she sleeps with her Glow Worm and her blanket and -- I said, Call 911! Call 911! And we`re running around the house and we`re screaming for her, and she was nowhere! And then...
GRACE: Mommy`s behavior...
BRADLEY: No. It`s like they just walked in and just disappeared!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They are scared like scared rabbits in a cage.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Jane Velez-Mitchell, in tonight for Nancy Grace. Extraordinary developments in the baby Lisa case. You have a mystery man seen the night the child vanishes holding a baby, who is almost naked, walking around the neighborhood. You have a homeless man/yardman who goes by the name Jersey, who is now connected to the lady with the pink hair who got a call from a phone that was purportedly, allegedly stolen from the home at the same time as the baby was taken. And it`s all very confusing.
But I`ll say this, John Manuelian, defense attorney. The FBI used Craigslist to track down the woman with the pink hair four days after the child vanished, this Megan. The woman with the pink hair says she placed an ad on Craigslist to sell a GPS unit. And she used as a contact the phone from which she got that call, from the phone connected to the family of the missing baby. And when she went to answer some person who was inquiring about buying this GPS unit, a whole bunch of FBI jumped out of cars with guns drawn and grilled her for six hours. What do you make of it?
JOHN MANUELIAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, they didn`t arrest her, so I don`t think they thought she had anything to do with it. Plus, there were additional people in that house at the of this incident. So it could have been any one of the other eight family members.
And remember something. This investigation isn`t over yet. I know we all want to find baby Lisa`s parents to be guilty or negligent of something. But the bottom line is, the investigation is not done. There`s no physical evidence. We haven`t found the baby. And their actions at this point shouldn`t be sort of put under the microscope because we don`t know what we would do in that situation. Most of us think we do, but everybody reacts differently.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I don`t think anybody is responding to their crying or anything. I think it`s just some of the questions that we have. If, in fact, the mother was on the stoop drinking with her neighbor until 10:30, how is it that a phone call from a phone that is stolen at the same time this child is taken goes out to this woman, who just happens to be the ex- girlfriend of a guy who`s doing yard work right around corner? Is there a connection between all of these seemingly disparate individuals? What is going on here? That`s what we`re trying to find out for the sake of this child you`re looking at.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DEBORAH BRADLEY, MOTHER OF MISSING 10-MONTH-OLD BABY LISA IRWIN: I`m terrified. But I`m trying to be hopeful.
JEREMY IRWIN, FATHER OF MISSING 10-MONTH-OLD BABY LISA IRWIN: Daughter Lisa was taken from our home.
BRADLEY: Nightmare.
IRWIN: When I came home from work.
BRADLEY: Something was really wrong.
IRWIN: The window was -- in the front was open.
BRADLEY: He said she`s not in her crib and I said what do you mean she`s not in the crib?
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: His baby daughter missing.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Police are saying that the parents just abruptly refused to continue talking with investigators.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They live here. It`s their child. Who knows more?
BRADLEY: I told them everything that I knew.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Search for the missing baby girl 10-month-old Lisa Irwin.
IRWIN: Somebody`s got her somewhere.
GRACE: If they are looking for the baby the first thing they should do is cooperate with police.
BRADLEY: I told them everything that I knew.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Their involvement in this investigation is critical.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Jane Velez-Mitchell in tonight for Nancy Grace.
Where is this precious, helpless child? Extraordinary developments tonight. A whole new cast of characters coming into play here. Of course, on the night that this child vanished the mother says she went and bought a box of wine. We actually have surveillance video of that. She`s with her brother. He drives her back, drops her off. She says she puts the child to sleep or put in her crib at 6:40.
Then she`s drinking wine with her neighbor until 10:30 at night on the stoop. At 10:30 the neighbor leaves. The mother is -- she claims intoxicated with at least five drinks and possibly anti-anxiety meds and passed out in the bedroom holding a kitten as well as one of her young sons. And there`s a 5-year-old boy or 6-year-old and an 8-year-old in the room.
She wakes up at 4:00 in the morning when her husband comes home from his overnight job and he`s like what the heck is going on. The lights are on. The window is open. The screen smashed in. The door is unlocked. And she just becomes hysterical. They realized their baby is missing.
Well, now there`s a wrinkle in the timeline because we learn that at between 8:00 and 8:30 that night at a time when she`s still, according to her own account, drinking wine on the stoop with her neighbor, a call is made from a cell phone that she said was stolen at the same time as her baby was taken, and it`s made to a woman with pink hair, who happens to be the ex-girlfriend of a homeless man or a yard-man who works in the area, and who is possibly working in the neighborhood that night as a nearby home.
Mary Hurt, you are the neighbor of this missing child`s family. And you said you had sort of an eye line or right next to the home where this Jersey character, this homeless man who did yard work, was doing yard work possibly that night for a family that was on vacation.
Now what did police do? I understand they took some footprint molds? Tell us about that.
MARY HURT, BABY LISA`S NEIGHBOR, POLICE CHECKED HER PROSPERITY FOR SUSPICIOUS FOOTPRINTS: Right. Well, the way that the sprinklers were laid out, it made an area that was kind of muddy there. You know, dirt made into mud so they took some footprints the next morning. Other than that we haven`t had any other rain so it`s been pretty dry every where else. But Jersey was --
VELEZ-MITCHELL: So you`re saying at the neighbor`s -- the neighbor`s house that he was working at they took footprints. What were Jersey`s movements, to your knowledge, that day?
HURT: Well, I saw him earlier in the afternoon between 12:00 and 1:00 and then when I got home at 9:30 the sprinklers were still on and they were in the same exact spot, which is extremely odd. And then we next checked at 11:00 they were off. So we know or assume that he has been there to turn those off at 11:00.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Did you see him? When was the last time you saw him?
HURT: About -- between 12:00 or 1:00 that afternoon, before I left to go run some errands.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK. So hours before -- at least five hours before the mom -- about five hours before the mom goes and gets wine from the store and comes back with a box of wine.
HURT: Right. Right.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK. So he was in the area that day but we don`t know exactly how long he was there, however based on what you know about your neighbor who was out of town, if the sprinklers were moved you would assume that he was there to move the sprinklers because he was the one taking care of that yard?
HURT: Yes, that`s correct.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And then tell us about the dumpster and how far it`s away from this house that`s next to you, because there was a fire, I think it was about 2:30 in the morning at that dumpster.
HURT: Right.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: What do you know about that dumpster?
HURT: Well, that dumpster, if you walk to the top of the hill in my backyard you can see it. It`s -- you know, I live up a hill in the backyard and then it goes down the other side and there`s town homes down there and that`s where that dumpster fire was.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And so out of nowhere the very night this child disappears there`s a fire in a dumpster behind the house where this guy is working who just happens to be the ex-boyfriend of a woman who gets a phone call from a phone that was purportedly taken from the house at the time the child is kidnapped.
Boy, it`s very, very complicated. And there`s a lot of things that don`t make sense.
Jim Spellman, CNN correspondent, weren`t there phones purportedly disconnected because they hadn`t paid their bill?
JIM SPELLMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT, ON THE SCENE OUTSIDE BABY LISA`S HOME: Yes. That`s what we understand. And there`s a lot of confusion around these phones because we know that sometimes authorities can find a phone by triangulating it with these cell towers. But apparently the authorities were not able to find Megan Wright by that way and it wasn`t until she included her number in this Craigslist classified ad that she says they were able to find her.
So I`m not sure why in those four days they weren`t able to somehow technologically find this phone. And also then the phones that were taken from the house, I don`t know if that same thing would apply to them, if it`s different for different types of phones. I just don`t know that. But there`s definitely a lot to be learned about where that phone call was made. If they could figure out where that phone call was made it would obviously really help the investigation. They may well have. That`s not something --
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, it doesn`t make sense to me that they`re saying that oh, the phones weren`t working, that`s -- the phones weren`t working, they were stolen but they weren`t working because we hadn`t paid our bill but now a call comes from that phone to somebody who actually does have a connection to somebody who was in the area.
It`s very bizarre. And there`s one last thing before we move on.
Jim, what about the reports that the pink -- the lady with the pink hair, that her phone number was written on the hand of the mother of the missing child allegedly purportedly? Tell us about that.
SPELLMAN: The pink haired woman, Megan Wright, told me last night that police told her that on Deborah Bradley`s hand was written in pen her phone number. Megan Wright`s phone number. Now Megan says she doesn`t know Deborah or she doesn`t know anybody involved in the family.
We know that police don`t have to tell truth in these interviews but that`s what Megan told me that police told her. Cindy Short, the attorney until the other day of Deborah Bradley told me that she ran this by Deborah Bradley and Deborah Bradley said it`s not true. So --
(CROSSTALK)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Pat Brown, if it is true, what do you make of it?
PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER, AUTHOR OF "THE PROFILER": Well, if it is true, obviously there`s a lot more to this story that we`re not hearing from Deborah Bradley. If she did have this woman`s number on her it couldn`t be accidental. It`s also not accidental the phone call was made when the phone was supposedly not working. And you know, from her own -- it`s her own phone at 8:00. I mean it doesn`t make a lot of sense.
One of the questions I would ask is, one, where is that stray kitten or was Jersey the stray kitten? I mean these are the kind of questions that police are asking. There`s too many people involved in this with Deborah Bradley that night, and I think they`re going to find out there is not a kidnapping.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, then who is the mystery person walking around with a baby at 4:00 in the morning? We do not have the answer to that perplexing question.
We`re going to go the phone lines.
Barbara, I believe it is, New York, your question or thought, Barbara.
BARBARA, CALLER FROM NEW YORK: Hi, Jane. I must say you deserve a journalism and investigative awards for the outstanding reporting that you do throughout the day on your show. And as you`re there for Nancy Grace.
Now I`m not saying anything about the witnesses. But if I witnessed a man at 12:15 or 4:00 in the morning walking with a baby, with a diaper on, I would get to a phone right away. I live in a wonderful neighborhood. I have witnessed things in my own neighborhood. And I`ve called 911. And in those cases it was something that shouldn`t have been taking place.
And the other thing is we have seen so many missing children. And heard about them on this show. And these parents are out there putting pictures of these children up. In the stores, on the telephone poles. They are talking to the media. Look at Casey Anthony`s grandparents. I just don`t understand it. I don`t understand it.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, again, authorities have said the parents are not suspects. Certainly they are the focus of the investigation because they said things like they fear they are going to get arrested, or the mother has said that the cops told her she failed a polygraph. But we haven`t heard anything from the cops themselves.
So we don`t know. It is a perplexing, perplexing mystery, and we want to solve it for the sake of that little angel you`re looking at there on the screen, that helpless baby.
It is season 13 of "Dancing with the Stars" and our very own Nancy Grace is dancing for an amazing cause, the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children.
Tonight Nancy is dancing the jive. So be sure to vote. You can vote multiple times for Nancy and her amazing dancing partner Tristan MacManus.
Everybody here at the NANCY GRACE SHOW says good luck, Nancy, you can win this thing. We know you can. We`re rooting for you and we`re voting for you.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
IRWIN: They took all the phones.
BRADLEY: They were on the counter in the kitchen.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Three cell phones.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Deborah Bradley told police three cell phones were also missing from the home.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Police have confirmed to us that that night a call was made from one of those phones calls.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Megan Wright, she says she had a 50-second phone call.
GRACE: A phone call was made out from that cell phone.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Apparently there was a 50-second phone call made from one of the family`s phones to my cell phone.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s her phone. It`s in her pocket.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When I got my phone back later that night, all my call logs were deleted.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A strange man was walking around the neighborhood with a half naked baby.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Seen this guy walking with -- carrying something. Maybe. I got of work about 4:00. And on Tuesday mornings I go visit my cousin here on 48 Terrace. And I was on the way down. I was on my bike. And I came down this exit. And I seen a guy walking over here. And I turned the corner and came up this way and I believe I stopped right here. And he was up here ways. And he turned to look at me and I looked at him and I could tell he had a baby with him.
She had a T-shirt and either training pants or a diaper on. It was too cold for that, I thought. I thought it was kind of stupid for a guy to be out here that late in the morning with a baby and dressed like that, no blanket nor coat.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Jane Velez-Mitchell in for Nancy Grace.
That man at 4:00 in the morning saw another man, a mystery man, in a white T-shirt holding a baby walking down the street at 4:00 in the morning the very night that this angel disappears.
Jim Spellman, you spoke to this man. He said he picked out someone and I understand the someone who he picked out lives in the community and that`s all we can say now for legal reasons. He lives in the community.
Tell us very briefly what you know, Jim.
SPELLMAN: Sure. That`s right. He positively identified a man that lives in this community as being the man he saw. Now it`s significant for a couple of reasons. This man on the motorcycle Mike Thomson is the first of this cast of characters if you will that we met that has no connection to this neighborhood. He lives 90 miles away. Works at a Ford plant here on an overnight shift.
So he -- he has no connection to these people at all and he picked this person out. Cindy Short, the attorney until the other day, of Deborah and Jeremy, took him to the police. He was interviewed for two hours and showed a mugshot. He specifically said a mugshot by police. And ID`d the same man to the police. So --
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right.
SPELLMAN: It`s obviously significant. It certainly not conclusive of anything but it`s definitely significant.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Right. Yes. Excellent reporting, by the way. You`ve dug up all this stuff. It`s amazing.
Let`s bring in the attorneys as Nancy would say. Bradford Cohen, John Manuelian.
First, Brad, what do you make of that? Somebody who lives in the community is who this person picked out.
BRADFORD COHEN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I think it`s pretty interesting but with I.D.s you always have to be careful with the way that they ID`s this individual, how they perform the identification. You always got to be careful about that.
What I think is more interesting is that he picked it out through a mugshot which was what was said by the reporter. Generally they use driver`s license photos unless that individual has been arrested before. So when someone tells me they identified him outside of a -- from a mugshot to me that means that this individual was arrested before so we need to see what he was arrested for, possibly, you know, there`s some kind of a connection there or something that would lead to us to something else.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: John Manuelian, it seems like the police are getting closer, but it`s been a while. How come they haven`t been able to connect these dots?
JOHN MANUELIAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It takes time. This is a complicated investigation. And the problem is baby Lisa`s mom was drunk so she can`t remember so putting the pieces of the puzzle together is not so easy. So we got to give them time.
And remember this man that was in the middle of this area with the baby at midnight, you know, this is a guy that could have possibly taken baby Lisa. This could be the target. And yes, this person with the mugshot, what kind of charges does he have? Is it for sexual molestation of a minor? Has he kidnapped other people before?
These are the questions that investigators should be asking.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And you know what occurs to me? Maybe if the mother was in fact drunk and on anti-anxiety meds, she doesn`t know what happened and maybe one person took the baby and somebody else took the cell phones. I mean it`s within the realm of possibility.
Carol, California -- we`re going to the phones. Carol, California, your question or thought, Carol.
CAROL, CALLER FROM CALIFORNIA: Hi, Jane. Nice to see you again.
Jane, I wondered if when investigators went in to search the family home, did they find the baby items that had been purchased by Deborah that afternoon? And a few minutes ago you mentioned all these other people that are now emerging and could there be a connection?
I`ve been wanting to ask you, could baby Lisa have been sold?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, all excellent questions. I wish I had the answers but Alexis Tereszcuk, you`ve been on this from the beginning. Your thoughts on the call?
ALEXIS TERESZCUK, REPORTER, RADAROLINE.COM: So as for the things found in the house, you know, the police did do a very thorough investigation. Quite a few of them including one about two weeks ago that was 17 hours. And they looked at everything. I`m sure that if they were looking for the baby food, they found it. As you know, they`ve been very tight lipped about what they found.
But we can see from videos that the box of wine was left there. The bag was drained. So they were researching how much the mom had to drink. As for the baby being sold I think that`s a theory, maybe one that the authorities are looking into. But so far there really hasn`t been any evidence that we`ve learned about that would lead to that direction at all.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Another caller, Jan, New York, your question, your thought, Jan?
JAN, CALLER FROM NEW YORK: Yes, I had a thought that in her drunken stupor or whatever, if baby Lisa didn`t start crying and she possibly asked one of her two other children to go get her out of the crib or something and inadvertently there was an accident and her daughter got killed, and both parents at this point are trying to cover that up and not letting their children talk to the police?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Dr. Helen Morrison, forensic psychiatrist, if that were to occur tragically wouldn`t somebody be more willing to reveal that a terrible accident had occurred since young children cannot be charged with murder at the age of 6 and 8?
DR. HELEN MORRISON, FORENSIC PSYCHIATRIST: Well, we have to go back to the Casey Anthony case. That was supposedly an accident also. And it wasn`t reported. But the fact that the attorney is saying that they will allow these children to be interviewed makes that point rather questionable.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. And again, I want to stress these parents are not considered suspects.
We are talking about this case because this beautiful child you`re looking at is missing and we want to find her, and we are leaving no stone unturned. But we are not saying the parents are suspects. The cops have said absolutely nothing of the kind.
Where is baby Lisa?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The cadaver dog indicated a positive hit for the scent of a deceased human.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Baby Lisa`s mom`s bedroom on the floor.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There was in that room some sort of human decomposition.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tonight, our very own Nancy Grace is dancing the jive on season 13 of "Dancing with the Stars."
Be sure to vote. You can vote multiple times for Nancy and her dancing partner, the amazing Tristan.
Good luck, Nancy. We`re rooting for you. You can win this thing.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: I have been in the rehearsal hall since, believe it or not, 7:20 a.m. this morning.
TRISTAN MACMANUS, NANCY GRACE`S DANCING PARTNER: Nancy is busy. I sent her off to work on next week.
GRACE: Hi, everybody. I just want to thank you so much for supporting us this week on "Dancing with the Stars." When we did our foxtrot. And now we`re onto the jive. What is that?
MACMANUS: It`s a whole lot of fun.
I`d like to personally say thank you for myself. I am from Ireland and my family who because of your help, has got us the support that made us stay here this week.
GRACE: I need an expert -- I need an expert to get into Tristan`s mind. This is Tristan`s mom. High knees, kicks, smiles, was he always like that?
MACMANUS: I got a big sweat.
GRACE: It`s 800-868-3405. We take sympathy votes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And Nancy is dancing for a great cause, kids.
Tonight, let`s stop to remember Army Sergeant Brett Hershey, 23 years old, from State College, Pennsylvania. He was awarded the Bronze Star and the Purple Heart. He left his studies at Indiana University to serve in Afghanistan. He is remembered as someone who lit up a room and dreamt of joining Campus Crusade for Christ when he returned to finish college. He leaves behind his parents Roger and Roxanne, and his sisters Abby and Nikki.
Brett Hersey, a true American hero.
Thanks to all our guests and thanks to you at home. See you tomorrow night 8:00 sharp Eastern right here. And remember to vote for Nancy.
Until then, have a safe evening.
Nancy, you can win this thing, we know you can!
END
