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Nancy Grace
Missing Kansas City 10-Month-Old Update; Parents of Baby Lisa Okay Trick or Treating with Cameras
Aired November 02, 2011 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, live, the heartland. A 10- month-old baby sleeping in her own crib just feet away from her mom goes missing without a trace, front door unlocked, front window open, every cell phone gone. Grainy surveillance video emerges, Mommy shopping just before baby vanishes, brings home baby food and a big box of wine!
Mommy, knocked out drunk when baby goes missing, changes her story as to the last time she even sees her own baby. Mommy and Daddy still refusing to sit down for interviews with cops, even their boys, ages 5 and 7. But they find time to take the boys trick-or-treating all for TV cameras, but they can`t talk to cops?
Bombshell tonight: A new timeline surfaces as we uncover two separate neighbors that see baby Lisa alive and in her crib at 4:30 PM, then at 6:30 PM. Tonight, we learn Daddy returns from the night shift to find his baby girl gone, but then runs to bang on a neighbor`s door to find the baby. Why a neighbor`s door? And that`s all before he even calls 911.
And tonight, just how much wine did Mommy drink? A lot more than we know the very night the baby disappears. As Mommy`s own brother interrogated by police, footprints take center stage in the investigation. Reports emerging about Mommy`s secret past life.
Tonight, where is 10-month-old baby Lisa?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Find baby Lisa. That`s the ultimate goal.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She went to bed.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Lisa.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Now her child is missing.
GRACE: Allegedly stolen out of her own crib just feet away from her own mother.
DEBORAH BRADLEY, MOTHER: Give her her bottle, made sure her binky was in her crib in case she needed it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is not something you can talk your way out of.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The last time Lisa was reported seen was around 6:30 by the neighbor`s young daughter. Debbie bought, among other things, a box of wine.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We know that she was passed out drunk.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And they brought in the brother of Deborah Bradley for an interview that police say lasted about two hours.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We know that she takes anti-anxiety drugs.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The gas station where the surveillance video shows a man walking in this direction.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Holding a baby, a mystery man holding a baby.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How would somebody get out of the house with baby Lisa?
BRADLEY: No. No. It`s like they just walked in and just disappeared!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Debbie stayed at the house and drank wine all evening with her neighbor.
BRADLEY: I`m terrified! But I`m trying to be hopeful!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Bombshell tonight. A new timeline surfaces. We discover two separate neighbors see baby Lisa alive in her crib, 4:30, then 6:30 PM the night she goes missing.
Tonight, we find out Daddy comes home from the night shift to find the baby gone, but then inexplicably runs to a neighbor`s door, banging on the door, to find his baby next door before calling 911?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The parents -- will they sit down? Are they cooperating? Will they cooperate?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Just asked a whole bunch of questions.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: First baby Lisa`s mom.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I told them everything that I knew.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And then baby Lisa`s dad.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Somebody`s got her somewhere.
GRACE: If they`re looking for the baby, the first thing they should do is cooperate with police.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But every day, police tell us they need to talk to the family to advance this investigation.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Their involvement in this investigation is critical.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Camera crews following around trick-or-treating.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What really happened the night this little girl disappeared from her crib in the middle of the night?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How would somebody get out of the house with baby Lisa?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The whole world is asking her, Tell us what happened. Tell us what happened.
BRADLEY: Maybe somebody wanted a baby and she -- I don`t (INAUDIBLE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are live and taking your calls. Let`s go straight out to CNN correspondent, standing by at the Irwin home, Jim Spellman. Jim, tell me the latest.
JIM SPELLMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, I`ve just finished speaking for the first time with the husband of the next-door neighbor. This is the woman that Deborah Bradley spent the evening drinking with.
Now, we know that Jeremy Irwin was out of the house. We now know that this gentleman, the husband of the next-door neighbor, was also gone. They began a trial separation that very day, Nancy. He left the house at 5:00 o`clock, not sure even where he was going to spend the night, ended up crashing on a friend`s sofa.
So that puts two people that normally are in those pair of houses away from those houses the night baby Lisa disappeared, Nancy.
GRACE: OK, hold on. Hold on, Jim Spellman! You`re telling me the neighbor leaves his home that night that baby Lisa goes missing, so he`s not in the home. Is that the same home Daddy goes and bangs on the door when he finds out the baby`s gone?
SPELLMAN: That`s right, Nancy.
GRACE: Why did he go over there, Jim Spellman? Why would he think that his baby is -- is it directly next door?
SPELLMAN: It`s directly next door. They almost share a driveway. We know that the woman next door occasionally baby-sat and we know that she was with her that night. So maybe he ran over just to see if somehow she had taken the baby that night, if Deborah was drinking. But we don`t know why he went there before he dialed 911.
I do have to add quickly, Nancy, that this man, the husband and next- door neighbor -- police tell us that they`ve interviewed him and moved on and they don`t feel that is an active suspect in this.
GRACE: You know, Jim Spellman, frankly, I don`t know what to believe right now because I`m also learning -- you know, we focused briefly on a neighborhood handyman that apparently lives in some type of a commune. We thought he was homeless, but he apparently lives with a group of people in a home.
Now I`m learning that that mystery phone call the night baby Lisa goes missing -- Mommy says all her cell phones had been stolen from the home, that she cannot make an outgoing phone call because she didn`t pay the phone bill on the cell phone. We learn a phone call was made that night. And now we know it was made at 8:30 PM. Baby Lisa seen at 6:30. The phone call goes out at 8:30 to the handyman`s ex-girlfriend.
Now, that sounds like to me the handyman made the phone call. Why would Deborah Bradley, the mother, make the phone call?
SPELLMAN: Right. Well, we don`t know who made the phone call. As of that big search two weeks ago, in that affidavit, it says law enforcement still had not found those three phones. But it certainly places that handyman into this investigation. I mean, we don`t know that he had anything to do with anything, but he is part of that investigation because of that phone call to Megan Wright...
GRACE: Well, you`re...
SPELLMAN: ... his ex-girlfriend.
GRACE: ... darn right he is, Jim Spellman, because these cell phones, apparently, reportedly stolen from the home at the same time the baby`s kidnapped, but then that phone is used to call that guy`s girlfriend at 8:30 that night, all right?
So does that mean that all of this went down before 8:30, between 6:30 and 8:30 that night? I mean, the implications are endless as to what`s going on here. So I don`t -- and now I learn that the handyman has been taken into federal custody or taken into custody on a federal burglary unrelated to this.
Now, to Steve Helling, staff writer, "People" magazine. Steve, you and I have -- I`ve tried and you`ve covered so many criminal cases. When you want to crack somebody -- think about Misty Croslin, all right? Think about that case. She`s in jail. She`s behind bars on drug charges, when what they really want to know is what happened to Hailey, the little girl.
So now this homeless guy has been taken into custody on an alleged burglary, but what cops really want to know is where`s baby Lisa. Don`t you see that, Steve Helling?
STEVE HELLING, "PEOPLE" (via telephone): Well, I do see that -- that -- you know, police do anything that they can do to get to the truth. And whether or not that`s the reason why they have him behind bars right now, who knows.
But I will say this one thing. The police have repeatedly said that this gentleman is not a suspect. So you know, we have to judge what they`re saying as opposed to what they`re doing.
GRACE: Steve Helling...
HELLING: OK. Yes?
GRACE: ... they say everybody`s not a suspect! Nobody`s a suspect, all right, according to the police.
Out to Matt Zarrell, our producer on the story. Weigh in, Matt. What do you know?
MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: OK. Well, what we know is we know more about this phone call. It was a 50-second phone call between 8:00 and 8:30 that night. Now, Megan Wright told us that what happened was, is that there are eight people that are living in the home with her, and that phone is shared among those people. She was actually not the one who answered the phone.
Now, when she actually retrieved the phone a few hours later, the call log was deleted from the phone. So we have no way of knowing of who actually placed that call. But we are sure that cops are pinging the phone, working to find out what the location was.
GRACE: Everybody, we are taking your calls. I want to go out to Virginia in Florida. Hi, dear. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I wanted to suggest that somebody -- I wonder if they have looked at the fact that these people seen the little baby in the man`s arms, if could it have between the missing little dog the neighbor lost just about the same time that the little baby was lost. The varying stories...
GRACE: OK. Well, as a matter of fact, Virginia in Florida, with me right now, joining us exclusively tonight is Mike Thompson. He`s joining us. And he says that he saw the man carrying the baby wearing only the diaper at 4:00 AM.
Mike, thank you for being with us.
MIKE THOMPSON, SAW MAN CARRYING BABY (via telephone): Yes, ma`am.
GRACE: Mike, could you describe for me what you observed the night baby Lisa goes missing?
THOMPSON: Yes. I`d just got off work, and I was going down the highway. And I exited on 48th Street. I go over to see my cousin after work on Tuesday mornings. And I was going down 48th Street, and I see a man carrying a baby about 30, 40 foot up one street.
GRACE: And what did the baby have on?
THOMPSON: A diaper and a T-shirt.
GRACE: Diaper and a T-shirt.
THOMPSON: And he was wearing a short-sleeved shirt. Huh?
GRACE: OK, so the baby`s wearing diapers and a T-shirt. And what did the man look like?
THOMPSON: Oh, about 5-7, 5-8, kind of salt-and-pepper hair. Yes. He`s pretty well built. He had a T-shirt on and white pants.
GRACE: Mike Thompson joining us, claims he sees the baby being carried by a man around 4:00 AM when baby Lisa goes missing. Mike Thompson, is it true that you have identified a man in a photo line-up?
THOMPSON: Yes, ma`am.
GRACE: Repeat?
THOMPSON: Huh? Yes, I...
GRACE: Have you identified a man in a photo line-up?
THOMPSON: Yes, ma`am.
GRACE: Do you know who the man is?
THOMPSON: No, I don`t. It`s the man I seen that night, I`m sure.
GRACE: And let me go to Matt Zarrell. Do we know who the man is in the photo line-up that Thompson identified?
ZARRELL: We do believe it`s a resident in the area. But right now, his name has not been publicized and we`re not releasing the name at the moment, Nancy.
GRACE: The tip line, 816-474-8477. Joining me tonight, the man who sees a man carrying a baby at 4:00 AM the night baby Lisa goes missing. This as we learn Mommy may have imbibed much more than we believe originally. And the timeline changes. Mommy`s brother taken in for interrogation as the parents refuse to sit down with cops. Tip line, 816- 474-8477. Where is this baby?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did it look like anything was disturbed in her room? I mean, did anything look out of place other than her not being there?
BRADLEY: No. No. It`s like they just walked in and just disappeared!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now, if she was to have been taken out of the house at night -- this is almost pitch-black.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We have a fascinating cast of characters here. We have the mother and the father of the missing child.
BRADLEY: We`re running around the house and we`re screaming for her!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was taken from our home.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All hell breaks loose.
BRADLEY: You know, maybe somebody wanted a baby.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You want to believe that there`s not a crazy person out there who`s taking babies.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The neighbor who lives in this white house saw a man walking up this hill.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was wearing, like, a dark-colored pants and what we believe was a T-shirt.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He turned and looked at me, and I could tell he had a baby with him.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You also want to believe the mom, too.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Family has cooperated.
BRADLEY: No.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: In every way they could possibly cooperate.
BRADLEY: No.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why won`t you talk to us?
BRADLEY: Because we`re grieving.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I wish that somebody would figure out what happened to that baby one way or another.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are live and taking your calls. I want to back out to Jim Spellman, CNN correspondent joining us there at the Irwin home. We`re also learning about an alleged secret life that the mom had. What do we know?
SPELLMAN: Well, "The National Enquirer" is reporting on some extramarital affairs she had with her husband, who she`s still married to, who`s in the service. This is when they lived elsewhere.
Nancy, I just want to -- I just want to mention something. Mike Thompson`s sighting of this man at 4:00 AM -- I`ve been working on this for the last few days, and I`ve met this man, who we`re not naming. But I want to tell you, I`ve just discovered in that last break, we can now report that he has denied to me -- that man that Mike Thompson saw has denied to me that he was there at that time. He says it`s not him. And I know it`s the same person. I showed a photograph to Mike Thompson. So I just want to put it out there that that man denies that it`s him.
GRACE: Is it true, Jim Spellman, that cops have spoken to the guy and have ruled him out?
SPELLMAN: They have spoken to him, yes, and they say -- this is the common language they use, that they have spoken to the person, he answered their questions, and they`ve moved on. They won`t say that they`ve cleared anyone. You know, "cleared" doesn`t really mean anything. They won`t say that. They keep open the avenue to always come back. But they have told us that, yes -- and in fact, they -- about that, that particular individual in relation to that sighting.
GRACE: And you know, it may be something as simple as that particular guy has an air-tight alibi at 4:00 AM. So it may not have been him, but somebody that looks like him. There are a lot of different -- there are a lot of moving parts in this story right now that police had not been able to sort out.
I want to go back to Mike Thompson, everyone, joining us exclusively tonight. Thompson sees a man carrying a baby around 4:00 AM, the baby only wearing a diaper and a T-shirt, the night baby Lisa goes missing.
Mike Thompson, I know it took you around two weeks to come forward, but you can explain that. Explain.
THOMPSON: Yes, a week. See, I work in Kansas City. I live 90 miles from there. And I didn`t know anything about this until the next day, I see it on the news that there was a baby kidnapped in Kansas City. And I just thought and thought and thought, and then -- I told my wife when I got home that morning that I`d seen a guy carrying a baby and what an idiot he was (INAUDIBLE) cold (INAUDIBLE)
And I just kept thinking about it and thinking about it. And I asked my cousin when I went back over there the next week if I ha told him about it. Oh, you better call the police. So he called police, and I told them what I`d seen.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where is the clue that will unlock what happened here to this baby?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police here tell us they still need to interview the parents and the half-brothers of baby Lisa.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why won`t you talk to us?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Our main priority, our number one goal is to find this child.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thus far, the family has refused for about the last three weeks to consent to those interviews.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And we absolutely believe that the parents` involvement in the investigation is critical to help make that happen.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Their other local attorney, Cyndy Short (ph), was drummed off of the case over conflicts about whether or not the family should speak to the police.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Our door is open. It has always been open.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Where is baby Lisa?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are live and taking your calls. To Matt Zarrell. What`s all this business about the mommy`s secret life?
ZARRELL: Yes, "The National Enquirer" is reporting that while Deborah Bradley was stationed at Fort Bragg with her Army husband, Sean Bradley, she allegedly tried have an affair with her next-door neighbor`s husband.
Now, the husband`s wife talked to "The National Enquirer" and claims that Deborah Bradley went over to the house while she was at work and would not leave the house. And when the husband said, I`m going to go to bed, you need to leave, Deborah Bradley said, No, I`m not going to leave. And that`s when she allegedly started to take her clothes off. The husband immediately said, No, no, no, I don`t want anything to do with this, and kicked her out of the house.
But the friend says that Deborah Bradley is a chronic liar and claims that you can`t believe what you see on TV.
GRACE: OK, can you tell me something, Matt Zarrell? Put him up! What does that have to do with this?
ZARRELL: Well, I think the point that "National Enquirer" is trying to make, Nancy, is that if Deborah Bradley is lying about her past and she has a history of lying, why are we to believe her now, especially with reports that she allegedly failed a polygraph test? So based on that, I think it changes the entire timeline of what we`re talking about because we can`t assume that Bradley is telling the truth about what happened that night.
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers. Joining us, victims` rights advocate, host of "We the People," Gloria Allred in LA, Peter Odom, defense attorney, Atlanta, Lauren Lake, defense attorney, New York.
Gloria, what do you make of the developments?
GLORIA ALLRED, VICTIMS` RIGHTS ADVOCATE: Well, I think the fact that she may have tried to have a sexual relationship with someone else`s husband is certainly not conclusive on the issue of whether or not she had anything to do with the disappearance of her baby.
GRACE: Yes. I don`t think that has anything at all to do with it. What I`m more concerned, about possible lies, if there are any, that night, the night baby Lisa goes missing. I agree with you, Gloria Allred.
To you, Peter Odom. Also disturbing that Mommy and Daddy will not let the 5-year-old and 7-year-old sit down and talk to cops. Not even cops, it`s a forensic specialist trained in interviewing children. But they`ll parade them trick-or-treating for cameras, for national TV. So you can put them on national TV, but you can`t talk to cops about the baby girl going missing?
PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, certainly, you`re not going equate taking your kids trick-or-treating to sitting them down in an interrogation room with, you know, a police...
GRACE: Not an interrogation room.
ODOM: ... a police-directed interrogation because they`re not the same thing.
GRACE: It`s a special forensic therapist. And you know what, Lauren Lake? I wouldn`t be surprised if they don`t convene a grand jury...
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: New on the scene here in Kansas City.
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HLN HOST: The brother of the mother of the missing child.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Who was with Debbie the night before Lisa disappeared?
JIM SPELLMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: This brother was seen on surveillance camera tape with Deborah Bradley.
PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER, AUTHOR OF "THE PROFILER": In the store with her when the wine was bought.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Debbie stayed at the house and drank wine all evening with her neighbor.
SPELLMAN: Still need to interview the the parents and the half brothers of baby Lisa.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Who are you talking to?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Refusing to allow the cops to interview the children even as they reportedly allowed "Good Morning America" to follow the kids trick or treating.
DEBORAH BRADLEY, MOTHER OF MISSING 10-MONTH-OLD BABY LISA IRWIN: She means everything to my boys.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Another sessions with forensic interviewers was scheduled but was postponed.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Police begging for information and they`re getting cancellation.
BRADLEY: I told them everything that I knew.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They live here. It`s their child. Who knows more.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY GRACE, HLN HOST: We are live and taking your calls. Unleash the lawyers. Gloria Allred, Peter Odom, Lauren Lake.
Mommy and daddy take the 5-year-old and the 8-year-old boy trick or treating with cameras. With cameras watching them. But they will not allow a special trained child forensic expert talk to the boys.
Why, Lauren Lake?
LAUREN LAKE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You know what, Nancy, I think at some point they are going to let the boys sit down. But I think these parents, along with their lawyers, are deciding they`re going to go offense on this case. At some point they have to get off of this aggressive accusatory tone that the police has directed toward them, and they don`t want that directed towards their kids. I think that`s why they held them back and at some point they will let them talk.
GRACE: And when will that be?
LAKE: Well, when they get good and ready, and when their lawyer lets the police know that they`re ready. They`re lawyered up now and their lawyer will do the job.
GRACE: Well said, Lauren Lake. When they get good and ready --
LAKE: Yes.
GRACE: -- as their baby has been abducted and possibly dead --- when they feel like it.
LAKE: No, no, no.
GRACE: OK. Gloria Allred --
LAKE: When it`s appropriate.
GRACE: I`ll tell you what`s going to happen.
LAKE: When it`s appropriate.
GRACE: All right, Lauren. Thanks.
Gloria Allred, this is what the cops can do. They can go to the DA and convene a grand jury. Grand juries are not only charging tools for the state they are also investigative. So they can get an investigative grand jury to issue a subpoena to a 5-year-old and an 8-year-old, and let them come into a grand jury and tell a grand jury what happened that night. And if the parents don`t go ahead and cooperate with police that`s just what`s going to happen.
What do you think, Gloria?
GLORIA ALLRED, VICTIM`S RIGHTS ATTORNEY, CHILD ADVOCATE: I think that`s exactly what should happen, Nancy, because the longer it takes before these children are, in fact, questioned. And I say questioned, not interrogated, questioned by a specialist who is used to dealing with children, and will be sensitive to their needs, the longer it takes the more their memory may be distorted, may be unreliable.
I don`t know if the parents have interrogated their own children. Have infected, contaminated their memory of what went on that night. I don`t know. But the longer it takes for this to happen the less reliable the answers are going to be.
GRACE: Well, I know this much. That the mommy says she has never once talked about baby Lisa disappearing with the two little boys which I think, Caryn Stark, psychologist is absolutely ridiculous because the first thing John David and Lucy say in the morning is, where`s the other one. Where`s Lucy? Where`s John David? If they don`t see them.
So you know this 5-year-old and 8-year-old have been saying, where is baby Lisa? Where is she -- I mean obviously the parents have talked to them about it.
So Caryn Stark, let`s clear it up. The misconception that Peter Odom, defense attorney, has just put out there about what this interrogation of the 5- and 8-year-old would be. You`re the shrink. Explain how it goes down.
CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: It goes down as play, Nancy. It goes down as fantasy. They don`t get interrogated. They get played with and through the play they get to be asked questions. They are handled very, very carefully.
And I agree with Gloria that it`s going to get contaminated the longer that anybody waits to interview them because they start to take other versions of the story. Children are very smart. Like you said about your children. They know that this baby is gone. They are not idiots.
And no one is explaining anything to them. And they need to. They need to be told. It`s much more scary to not be told something than to be living out there and not understand what happened, and no one is talking about it.
And here`s something else I don`t understand. They went trick or treating and they followed them with cameras? Why? What was -- why did the parents think that`s not traumatic?
GRACE: You know, I`m going to go back to Peter Odom.
And, peter, if possible I would like you to answer with yes-nos.
(LAUGHTER)
GRACE: Peter, you were for many years --
(CROSSTALK)
PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I`m going to be cross-examined, won`t I.
GRACE: -- a felony prosecutor, were you not?
ODOM: I was.
GRACE: OK. So that`s a yes. Did you ever prosecute any child molestation case?
ODOM: Many. Hundreds actually.
GRACE: At any time did any of your child molestation victims be interviewed by, for instance, a therapist or a counselor as to the molestation?
ODOM: Yes. And when they were they tried to do it --
GRACE: OK, thank you, Peter.
ODOM: I`m being restricted to yes or no. Sorry.
GRACE: But you -- thanks. So what you`re arguing today is that these boys should not be questioned by a therapist that is trained specifically in questioning children and in a non-interrogation-type atmosphere, but you had it happen on your own cases, correct?
ODOM: Incorrect. Incorrect. What I`m arguing, Nancy, is that the police missed the boat on interviewing these children weeks ago.
GRACE: That`s how we should do it.
ODOM: Anything they say now is going to be so unreliable that it`s going to be unusable.
GRACE: That`s not even remotely what you said before but I give you credit for doing the back stroke beautifully.
Out to the lines. Bridgette in Illinois. Hi, Bridgette, what`s your question?
BRIDGETTE, CALLER FROM ILLINOIS: Hi, Nancy. I was wondering if anybody has been able to confirm whether Philip, Debbie`s brother, returned back to her home that night later in the evening?
GRACE: I do know that he`s undergone hours of police interrogation. We`re talking about mommy`s brother.
Jim Spellman, CNN correspondent, joining us at the Irwin home, what do you know?
SPELLMAN: That began spreading yesterday after a little bit of a reporting I think after his interview with the police some sort of leaked out reports that he confirmed to police -- this is in local media -- that she was really drunk.
People have taken that to mean he came back -- her brother came back at some point to acquire that information. When I ran this by the police they said it was the first time they`d heard of it, my asking him about it and they didn`t know anything about him returning. So that`s all I can report on that, Nancy.
GRACE: Joining me right now is an exclusive guest, Mary Hurt. This is baby Lisa`s neighbor. Police have checked her property for footprints. Footprints. Taking such a stage in this investigation.
Mary Hurt, thank you for being with us.
MARY HURT, BABY LISA`S NEIGHBOR, POLICE CHECKED HER PROPERTY FOR SUSPICIOUS FOOTPRINTS: Thank you, Nancy.
GRACE: Miss Hurt, exactly where is your home in relation to the Bradleys?
HURT: They are probably about five houses that separate us and the corner. I kind of go along the path towards the Brighton town homes where the dumpster fire was.
GRACE: So that`s five doors down. Now you got somehow pulled into this whole thing because another neighbor believes they saw a male the night baby Lisa goes missing carrying a baby, turning into your property. Is that correct?
HURT: Yes. They turned onto our property and it`s the lead to the gym that they went through our neighbor`s back yard, because our gate is locked to our fence and the neighbor`s is open.
GRACE: Now, on the night baby Lisa disappears, did you see anything?
HURT: I didn`t. The only thing out of the ordinary was that our neighbor`s sprinklers were still on in the late hours at around 9:30. And at 11:00 they were turned off. So some time during their -- there hasn`t been Jersey or someone come back and turned them off which was out of the ordinary.
GRACE: Now police -- yes. Police came to your location. They interviewed you. Did they take footprints?
HURT: They searched our house. They searched the backyard and they took footprint molds out of our neighbor`s backyard right by that gate where there`s kind of a semi grassy dirty dirt filled area where they could get footprints off of.
GRACE: Is that near the playground, the children`s area?
HURT: The children`s area as far as -- it`s not -- it`s not close to any kind of play equipment. My kids` play equipment is close to it.
GRACE: OK.
HURT: Yes.
GRACE: I see. I see what you`re talking about.
HURT: Separate this.
GRACE: So they took footprints there. Now police interviewed you. What did they ask you?
HURT: They asked if we had seen anything that was unusual, out of place, even, you know, days before this leading up to it, if there was anybody in the neighborhood that wasn`t usually there, anybody that we know that may have been connected with that family at all.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Does it look like anything was disturbed in her room? I mean did anything look out of place other than her not being there?
BRADLEY: No. No.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: An emotional prayer vigil for the missing child.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re hoping for the best results.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She went to bed and now her child is missing.
SPELLMAN: All police will say is this is an active ongoing investigation.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s a positive development. When law enforcement stops at someone`s house to conduct an interview it`s on their terms.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The police can use all sorts of things to get to you tell the truth, stories that aren`t perhaps true.
BROWN: We need to know where he was that whole evening. We know he was at the -- at the store with her when the wine was bought.
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST, AUTHOR OF "DEALBREAKERS": One thing that we`re finding is that the police are being very meticulous about everything that they do.
STARK: And I am really upset that they let the media follow these kids doing their trick or treating. They should not be in the media eye. They should be protected from all of this.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is an ordinary woman and she is undergoing extraordinary circumstances.
STARK: The smoking gun piece of information that we`re missing here is the homeless man.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We know that she was passed out drunk. We know that she takes anti-anxiety drugs. She does not know how to behave or how to conduct an interview or whatever.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are live and taking your calls. Breaking news unfolding. Practically every 24 hours in the search for baby Lisa.
Straight out to Jim Spellman standing by at the Irwin home. We`re also learning that there`s a distinct possibility mommy may have imbibed much, much more alcohol than we first suspected?
HURT: That`s right. This morning in the "Kansas City Star" fresh details saying that now it could have been up to 10 drinks that she had of wine. Ten glasses of wine, previously she`d used the figure five. Ten is a lot more than five, obviously, Nancy.
Really difficult to tell, though, because these details come out via the family, via media interviews. Really hard to piece together. You know it seems like it`s a really moving target what exactly happened that night.
GRACE: To Dr. Ann Contrucci, pediatrician joining us out of Atlanta.
Doctor Ann, thank you for being with us. What does that equal, 10 drinks? What does that do to a body?
DR. ANN CONTRUCCI, M.D., PEDIATRICIAN: That`s a pretty drunk person if you ask me. I mean even somebody of an average weight, 10 drinks, 10 glasses of wine, that is -- would almost be considered a binge drinking type thing. I think we had talked before about blacking out and that`s one of the things that can lead to blacking out if you do some pretty major binge drinking that you`re going to black out.
And remember what we said about blacking out. Blacking out means you`re still conscious, you just don`t have any idea what`s going on around you.
GRACE: Doctor Ann Contrucci, another issue. We know that a cadaver dog has hit on the carpet in mommy`s bedroom. Now the defense is claiming that could be a dog hitting on a human, for instance, finger nail? Or even a poopy pants. Wouldn`t blood have to be in the poopy pants? And is it -- is that or is it not unlikely for a 10-month-old to be bleeding?
CONTRUCCI: Well, that`s another great question. I think that again the difference between human waste and human remains, and I think that was brought out so eloquently last week with one of your guests that was the cadaver dog expert.
Blood in a baby diaper is never normal, so that would be considered human remains. Blood is considered human remains. So you know there would have to be blood in her diaper but there should not be a reason for her to have blood in her diaper. Just some stools, just some poop in the diaper is not human remains.
GRACE: Joining me us is former sergeant, Phoenix PD and child advocate, Paul Penzone.
Paul, I want to hear what you have to say. You`ve handled so many cases where children have to be interviewed. I don`t mean interrogated, I mean interviewed. When I had child molestation cases or child witness to a homicide or a felony, I would interview them myself at the child`s home. OK. Not in a police interrogation room.
And I would speak to them as best I could in their own language and let the story unfold. I`ve worked with very young children. I`ve worked with children that have mental and emotional and physical handicaps, and there is a way to speak to them, to find out the truth, without traumatizing them.
So Paul Penzone, what do you make of mommy and daddy`s decision refusing cops access to the 5 and 8-year-old but yet they`ll parade them around on national TV trick or treating?
PAUL PENZONE, DIRECT OF PREVENTION PROGRAMS, CHILDHELP.ORG, FMR. SERGEANT, PHOENIX PD: Well, I mean the focus is really on -- is recovering baby Lisa so in doing that you`re undermining law enforcement efforts.
And this is an evolution, Nancy. I as you interviewed kids early in my career. And when law enforcement recognized how particular or how specific this interview needed to be they went to a more advanced level. What they do now is they have a room, the room is designed to be kid friends.
The forensic interviewer does not lead, does not intimidate but gets the child the opportunity to express their own thoughts and then tries to learn from that experience. It is not an interrogation. I listened to the defense attorneys tonight. I respect them both, I like to listen to them, but I almost feel as though we`re fighting law enforcement at the expense of baby Lisa as though not interviewing these kids as -- you know, it`s the wrong thing to do. It`s the right thing to do to interview these children and it should have been -- Peter did say, it should have been done right out of the get-go.
GRACE: OK, to you, Lauren Lake, respond.
LAKE: They were interviewed initially. They want a re-interview. And just to add on to that I think the problem is the police have to also learn a lesson, Nancy. When they come at these parents in an accusatory manner, aggressive, showing the mother burnt clothing and all of this you put the family off.
And now yes, they are having a tough time cooperating with police that`s why they lawyered up and now they`re following the direction of their lawyers and their lawyers obviously said we`re going to schedule the interview and I`ll let you know when.
GRACE: You know, Gloria Allred, I understand actually what Lauren is saying. However, to find their baby they have to cooperate with police. So to me all of that is out the window. All I know is how I reacted when I lost my son for two minutes in a big store. And it`s not like this. Of course the parents are not suspects.
But, Gloria, what is your advice to the mom and dad?
ALLRED: Well, of course my advice would be they have to listen to their attorney because obviously they are not ruled out as potential -- they are least persons of interest whether or not --
GRACE: Regarding the children --
(CROSSTALK)
ALLRED: I know. But having said that, you know, if they really have nothing to fear they should have the children speaking to the police and that should have been done and redone early on, and this kind of delay only raises eyebrows and only raises suspicions and concerns.
GRACE: Peter Odom?
ODOM: I completely agree with Miss Allred that the police blew it early on. The police are making a huge PR blunder here --
GRACE: Now, see, why are you saying that? Because they interviewed the boys for 30 and 50 minutes initially. Right when everything happened. But as the facts unfolded, they need to talk to the boys again. So how is that police botching it? I don`t understand your smearing on the cops.
(CROSSTALK)
ODOM: Nancy, it`s almost a month later at this point. There`s no way their testimony is going to be reliable --
GRACE: Yes, because mommy and daddy won`t let them speak to the boys.
ODOM: No, no, no, no, no. They were cooperating --
GRACE: Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
ODOM: -- for several days, Nancy, and you know that.
GRACE: No. I know that they`ve been trying to talk to the boys for weeks and mommy won`t allow it.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Everyone, I want to take this chance to thank you again for all of your support, your love, your e-mails, the letters, the phone calls, the votes on "Dancing with the Stars." And because of you I managed to make it to week eight.
All of my money going to the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. And therefore, I promised to bring you the perfect tango come Monday night. And again, thank you.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TOM BERGERON, HOST, "DANCING WITH THE STARS": David and Kim.
TRISTAN MACMANUS, NANCY GRACE`S DANCING PARTNER: If you enjoyed it, thanks very much. If you didn`t, well, whatever.
GRACE: Well, we`ll try again next week God willing. This is what we think of the team paso.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
MACMANUS: Next week is the first week where we`re going to have an instant dance. So that`s going to be a jive that everybody`s going to do. The difference with the instant dance I guess is you don`t get your music until the day of the competition.
GRACE: I was just thinking about everybody that has tuned in and watched us and taken the time to vote, to care.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: You know, every week I stay in that check to National Center for Missing and Exploited Children gets bigger.
Let`s stop and remember Marine Lance Corporal Luke Holler, 21, Bulverde, Texas, killed Iraq, awarded Purple Heart, Navy and Marine Corps Achievement Medal, Combat Action Ribbon. Black belt in Tae Kwon Do, loved sports, computer war games, remembered as loyal.
Leaves behind grieving parents, Ruth and John, Jr., sisters Jennifer, Rebecca and Elizabeth, brother Joseph, fiancee and soulmate Jessica.
Luke Holler, American hero.
Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us. Tomorrow night I`ll see you live 8:00 sharp Eastern, where in our own way we will be seeking justice. And until then, good night, friend.
END
