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Nancy Grace

Texas Judge Beats Disabled Daughter on Tape

Aired November 03, 2011 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight in the sudden death of music icon Michael Jackson. We are live, L.A., and we head to a verdict watch as the Michael Jackson case heads to a jury, Jackson`s live-in doctor, Conrad Murray, on trial for shooting Jackson up with a super-powerful surgical anesthetic, propofol, then leaving the superstar to die surrounded by his own urine.

Bombshell tonight. As millions watch justice unfold in an L.A. courtroom, Jackson`s doctor, Conrad Murray, braces for a verdict.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Conrad Murray caused the death of Michael Jackson.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Conrad Murray abandoned Michael Jackson.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And he was giving chest compressions.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Conrad Murray is criminally guilty of involuntary manslaughter.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have a gentleman here that needs help, and he`s not breathing.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did he gasp? Did he choke?

911 OPERATOR: Did anybody witness what happened?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, just the doctor.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He is putting Conrad Murray first and he`s intentionally not calling 911.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He should be here.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They want you to convict Dr. Murray for the actions of Michael Jackson.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was negligence of a doctor.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Conrad Murray is criminally liable.

DR. CONRAD MURRAY, MICHAEL JACKSON`S FORMER DOCTOR: I am an innocent man.

MICHAEL JACKSON: When people leave my show...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Justice.

JACKSON: ... I want them to say...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... demands...

JACKSON: ... I`ve never seen nothing like this in my life.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... a guilty verdict.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Bombshell tonight. We head into a verdict watch in the Michael Jackson death trial.

But first, before I take you live to that L.A. courthouse, we got to go to Texas. As we go to air tonight, highly disturbing -- disturbing to me, anyway -- and graphic video surfaces, south Texas, Corpus Christi area. A judge -- a judge, people! -- caught on video viciously brutally beating his own daughter over and over with a belt. I mean, swinging back and beating her, yelling and cursing at the girl -- a judge!

And where`s Mommy? She`s standing by, letting it happen, before Mommy herself jumps in for a piece of the action, yelling at her daughter to take it like a grown woman. And to top it all off, the girl has cerebral palsy. Cerebral palsy! And guess what else? The judge still has his job. Judge William Adams, Rockport, Texas, sir, I`m coming after you and Lady Justice is coming with me!

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Bend over that bed. Bend over the bed. Bend over the bed!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh! Oh! Stop!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Bend over the bed! I`m going to keep beating on your legs. Bend over the bed. Stand up!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stand up.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Bend over the bed. Bend over the bed. (EXPLETIVE DELETED)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Ow!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All the way on your stomach.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m going to start beating you again.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Get on your stomach.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get on your stomach, I said!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Get on your stomach!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get on your stomach!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Get on your stomach. Get on your God damn stomach!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Ow!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get on your stomach.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Get on your stomach!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh! Stop!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: The beating -- that`s just the beginning. The beating gets worse and worse and goes on for many, many minutes. We can only show you a portion of what we have seen. It goes on and on and on. The girl is begging, begging for her mother and father to stop beating her.

The judge is still on the bench. Did you hear him cursing at her? Did you hear him taking the Lord`s name in vain at his daughter with cerebral palsy?

Why is he still on the bench, Joe Gomez? Help me out!

JOE GOMEZ, KTRH NEWSRADIO: Nancy, this video contains some of the most graphic images I have ever seen! As you mentioned, a Texas judge viciously beats his 16-year-old daughter, who has cerebral palsy, with a belt because she was downloading music on the Internet! Seventeen times he whips her! Seventeen times the lash comes down. All the while, she`s screaming in agony, blood-curdling screams, begging her father to stop! And he does so that Mommy can join in! And she tells her to take the beating, to take it like a woman! And Daddy comes back with a bigger belt and gives her a few more licks!

And the bitter irony, Nancy, of it all is that this monster is a Texas judge that oversees child abuse cases!

GRACE: Out to Bonnie Druker, also on the story. Bonnie, I don`t understand why the people in the area don`t rise up and get this judge off the bench. They`ve asked him to take a break for two weeks?

BONNIE DRUKER, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Nancy, they are. They are.

GRACE: He still has a job, Bonnie!

DRUKER: He still has the job, but probably not for very much longer. The bar is going to look into it.

GRACE: Oh, blah, blah!

DRUKER: He`s left town very, very ashamed. He is not even in town anymore, we`re hearing.

GRACE: Put her up. Put her up! Put her up! Bonnie, he`s gone on a two-week vacation. That`s what`s happened. They need to take him off the bench. And he should be prosecuted! But guess what? He`s not going to be prosecuted because of a legal technicality!

Joining me, Patrick Flanigan, Arkansas (SIC) County, Texas, district attorney. He`s joining us tonight. Patrick, thank you for being with us. Is it the statute of limitations? Is that the problem, Patrick?

PATRICK FLANIGAN, ARANSAS COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY (via telephone): That`s the biggest problem that we`ve got. Yes, that`s correct. And actually, it`s Aransas County.

GRACE: Oh, thank you, Aransas County. Patrick, is there another child in the home right now?

FLANIGAN: There`s not another child in his home, as I understand it. He and his wife had divorced some time ago. As it`s been reported to me, they have joint custody, but the mother has primary possession of the child.

GRACE: Whoa! Whoa! Patrick -- with me is Patrick Flanigan from Aransas County district -- Texas district attorney. Patrick, the mother was in on the beating, too. What is she doing with a minor? That child should -- that should be investigated! Has DFACS been there, family and child services?

FLANIGAN: Yes. In Texas, it`s called the Department of -- I`m sorry, the Child Protective Services. They have been contacted. My understanding is that they`ve got an investigation ongoing regarding not only what we see in the video, but certainly, the circumstances surrounding the younger child, who is still a minor, as I understand it, and looking into the protection and care of that child.

GRACE: With me, Patrick Flanigan, joining us out of (INAUDIBLE) Texas. Also with us, Catherine Lombardo (ph), former judge pro tem, L.A. and San Bernardino Counties.

Catherine, listen, I`ve been in the system. I`ve been a public servant my whole life until I started a show with Johnnie Cochran, all right? I know how hard it is to get a judge thrown off the bench. But if this video doesn`t do it, nothing will. What`s your advice?

I think I`ve got Catherine Lombardo. Catherine, are you there? All right. All right. I`ll go back to her in a moment.

Unleash the lawyers, Michael Hardy, Renee Rockwell. Weigh in, Renee. What do you have to do to get a judge off the bench?

RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, in a case like this, Nancy -- this is only a misdemeanor, and it`s time-barred. Of course, they`re going to be looking at this...

GRACE: I`m sorry. I couldn`t hear you. Repeat.

ROCKWELL: I said this is a misdemeanor...

GRACE: Put her up!

ROCKWELL: ... and it is time-barred.

GRACE: Put her up!

ROCKWELL: (INAUDIBLE) Nancy.

GRACE: When you assault someone with a weapon, that is an aggravated assault! And if you...

ROCKWELL: Not in Texas.

GRACE: As I was saying, if you are familiar with the Texas statutes, this fits directly under aggravated child abuse! However, the statute of limitations has run. This girl grew up and posted this video evidence on YouTube. That`s how I happen to know about it. So the statute of limitations is run. It`s only seven years for aggravated child abuse, five years for regular.

So what does it take to throw a judge off the bench? That was my question to you, Renee.

ROCKWELL: Nancy, in the case of this being a misdemeanor, as I said, because in Texas you have to show severe bodily...

GRACE: It`s not a misdemeanor!

ROCKWELL: Well, I`m going to disagree with you. But at any rate, because of the age of this case, this just coming off -- just coming out, is this going to rise to the level where this man is able to...

GRACE: OK, so you`re not going to answer.

ROCKWELL: I`m trying to answer.

GRACE: All right. Fine. You know what? You had your crack at it.

ROCKWELL: Does it rise to the level...

GRACE: You bubbled around. Let me go to Michael Hardy. Michael Hardy, I`m going to ask you a very clear question. I hope I can get a clear answer from you. Otherwise, I`ll just answer my own question! What does it take to get a judge off the bench? Simple!

MICHAEL HARDY, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, in this case, Nancy, again, you can`t always just assume what is on the tape is on the tape. But with that said...

GRACE: Put him up!

JACKSON: With that -- with that...

GRACE: Would you keep the lawyers up? Because I`ve got to see Michael Hardy actually saying this!

HARDY: With that said...

GRACE: So I can`t believe my own eyes, I should believe you. OK.

HARDY: With that -- with that...

GRACE: Go ahead.

HARDY: With that said, you know, there is a mechanism by which judges have to maintain a certain...

GRACE: Spit it out.

HARDY: ... decorum and non-bias on the bench and appearance of impropriety (SIC) and impartiality.

GRACE: All right...

HARDY: And those are going to be...

GRACE: Fine!

HARDY: ... the bigger issues...

GRACE: You know what? I`ll let you two let this judge baby-sit your children! Liz, cue back the video for me.

We are taking your calls. Out to Karen in Michigan. Hi, Karen. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hello, Nancy. My question is, I`m wondering if the young girl did not bring it up earlier when she was 16 because of the fact she may have been intimated because of her father`s influence in the community and the job that he was -- that he had held?

GRACE: Good question. Michael Board, WOAI, why has it taken so long for this to become public?

MICHAEL BOARD, WOAI NEWSRADIO (via telephone): Well, Nancy, tonight bombshell! The judge is releasing a statement this evening, and he`s leveling some very harsh accusations against his daughter. He is now saying in a written statement that I am reading right now that the -- he thinks the reason that Hillary Adams released this video seven years after it was taken was because he recently decided to cut her off financially and take away her Mercedes. That`s why she posted this video.

GRACE: You know what? I`m sure he`s got all kind of excuses as to why he beat his daughter with a belt.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Very disturbing. It`s a beating.

It`s a beating.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The outrage is causing Judge Adams to leave his post temporarily.

JUDGE WILLIAM ADAMS, ARANSAS COUNTY, TEXAS: And I did lose my temper, but I`ve since apologized.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The father is punishing the daughter, and you see the punishment because it`s all caught on video.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m very relieved that these things have been brought to light.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Welcome back. You are about to see very disturbing video, disturbing to me anyway. We got it from YouTube, and it is of Texas judge William Adams, caught on video viciously, relentlessly beating his daughter, Hillary. Warning! The video is graphic.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Lay down! (EXPLETIVE DELETED) in the face! Roll over!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (EXPLETIVE DELETED) I told you to take that (EXPLETIVE DELETED) thing off the computer!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Here. You turn over. One time, you get over on your stomach, and you let me spank you on the butt.

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get on the stomach, or I`m going to start beating you again!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Get on your stomach.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get on your stomach, I said!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get on your stomach.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Get on your stomach! Get on your God damn stomach!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get on your stomach!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Get on your stomach!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: I can hardly even stand to look at it. And when I think that someone would hurt one of my twins like that, and this is their own mother and father! And let me tell you something, to the control room in New York. You beeped every curse word there except for the Lord`s name in vain, which is the worst of it all! So please beep that, too. Could you do that for me, Liz?

We are taking your calls. Out to Jennifer in Florida. Hi, Jennifer. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I may have missed it, but who took this video? Who recorded this? And wouldn`t they have a responsibility...

GRACE: Well, the girl had been -- Jennifer, the girl had been beaten so many times, she actually set up her -- what is it, Ellie? What does she have? Her little recorder on a dresser for the next time that she would be beaten because she thought nobody would ever believe her. And it was sitting there on the dresser and it rolled on this.

She knew she was going to take a beating, it had happened so many times. And what`s very disturbing to me tonight is the law only allows a prosecution X number of years after a crime, all right? Those years have passed. She was afraid to post this while she was still living in the home, and her father, a judge, to top it all off -- but once she got out of the home, she posted it.

Another thing that`s disturbing me, Jennifer in Florida, is there is a little sister still with the mother, and Mommy joining in on the beating! What is wrong with these freaks!

We are taking your calls. I want to go to Lawrence Carter Long, public affairs specialist, National Council on Disability. Lawrence, the girl has cerebral palsy, to top it all off. Help me out. Help me understand this!

LAWRENCE CARTER LONG, NATIONAL COUNCIL ON DISABILITY: Well, this is not a drop in the bucket. This is really an epidemic. If we look at the statistics that are out there that are available for the abuse of children with disabilities, we find that the prevalence rate of abuse towards non- disabled children in the U.S. is at 9 percent. For disabled kids, it`s a whopping 31 percent. That`s 3.4 times more likely to be abused than their non-disabled peers.

So this is an epidemic that we`re not talking about, again. It`s not surprising to me that she waited so long to get this information out. Let`s look at it. The Internet for many disabled kids is a lifeline. It`s a way for them to connect with the community in a way that they can`t in their school. It`s a way for them to reach out and be able to connect with other people. So she was probably doing that at the time.

So the fact that the connection that she had with the Internet, you know, was something her father didn`t like -- we now see that the support that she`s getting is coming from the Internet and that people are standing up and speaking out against this kind of abuse.

GRACE: Out to the lines. Celeste in Washington state. Hi, Celeste. What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I wanted to find out if the mother and father can be charged with child abuse.

GRACE: Let`s go to Jack Trimarco, retired FBI, a psychological profiler, polygraph unit chief. What do you make of it, Jack?

JACK TRIMARCO, RETIRED FBI PROFILER, POLYGRAPH EXPERT: Well, Nancy, I don`t care what state it is. That was clearly a felony that I just witnessed, child abuse on the worst level, a judge, his wife victimizing this child, who is a cerebral palsy victim. It...

GRACE: It`s shocking, Jack Trimarco, and this judge still sitting on the bench!

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ADAMS: In my mind, I haven`t done anything wrong other than discipline my child after she was caught stealing. And I did lose my temper, but I`ve since apologized. It looks worse than it is. There is a story. It`ll come out in due time.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: There you are seeing the judge, Judge William Adams, who says he`s apologized. That made it all OK? Did you see the video of him beating his daughter with a belt, and Mommy joining in?

We`re about to take you to the Michael Jackson trial, but right now, disturbing and graphic video off YouTube. It`s Texas judge William Adams caught on video beating his daughter, Hillary. The video is graphic.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Bend over that bed.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Dad!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Bend over that bed. Bend over the bed. Bend over the bed!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh! Stop!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Bend over the bed! I`m going to keep beating you on your legs. Bend over the bed. Stand up!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stand up!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Bend over the bed. Bend over the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) bed, damn it!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh! Oh! Oh! Stop!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Bend over like I said, damn it! Get up! Bend over the...

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: There`s so much more of the video that we are not showing you.

Out to the lines. Theresa in Alabama. Hi, Theresa. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, ma`am. Thank you for taking my call. Been trying to call and can`t never get through. But this is very disturbing. I`ve got a handicapped child myself, and my daughter also accidentally hit her son and went to prison. So I don`t know why a judge could -- I mean, he`s no different than anybody else. I mean, I`m so upset and disturbed about -- I don`t even know it if I can...

GRACE: Theresa in Alabama, I`m beside myself. To Paula Bloom, clinical psychologist. Paula, why are judges treated differently? Why should this judge still be sitting on the bench?

PAULA BLOOM, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Oh, my gosh!

GRACE: And then you have people explaining it away, like you heard Renee Rockwell saying. Oh, it`s just a misdemeanor. It is not a misdemeanor!

BLOOM: OK, so I don`t know about the legal part of it, but I have to tell you, watching this video, the seven minutes were some of the seven minutes that were worst for me than all the time I can recall. It was so disturbing to me.

I don`t care if he`s a judge. I don`t care if he`s the president. I don`t care if he collects garbage. It does not matter to me. But I got to tell you, Nancy, you know what was more disturbing even in the video to me was his statement. In his statement, he says something like he regrets the interruption and inconvenience his daughter`s post has caused the Texas community. He doesn`t take any responsibility for this. I find that outrageous!

GRACE: Well, he is as of tonight because, Judge William Adams, I`m coming after you, and Lady Justice is coming with me!

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Justice for Michael. Justice.

MICHAEL JACKSON, POP ICON: It`s great to be home. It`s a wonderful feeling.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: You are look at the bedroom where Michael Jackson took his last breath.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have a gentleman here that needs help, and he is not breathing.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: His eyes were open.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ladies and gentlemen, you`ve seen and heard all of the evidence in this case.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Conrad Murray has been accused of infusing propofol.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Michael Jackson had a problem, and he knew that he needed help.

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: When Dr. Murray left the room, he said he got up and took more pills and also injected more propofol.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: In this frantic scene --

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: A doctor on the edge.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He said, get here right away. Mr. Jackson had a bad reaction.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did he appear to be dead?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: For Michael`s children, this case will go on forever because they do not have a father. They do not have a father because of the actions of Conrad Murray.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: We are heading into a verdict watch in the Michael Jackson death trial.

Straight to the court house. Standing by, Jean Casarez. Jean, what happened today?

JEAN CASAREZ, LEGAL CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION": Well, Nancy, prosecutors took jurors front and center into the bedroom of Michael Jackson on June 25th, 2009, and showed them that Conrad Murray committed criminal negligence by buying the equivalent of four gallons of propofol, had administered it by his own statement every night for two months.

Nothing was different, they say, on June 25th, except for one thing. Michael Jackson`s lungs couldn`t get oxygen, and because of medical abandonment, leaving that room, talking with girlfriends, Michael Jackson died under the watch of a doctor.

GRACE: Jean, did the defense make a comeback in their closing statement?

CASAREZ: They said the prosecution didn`t prove their case because for the prosecution`s theory you have to have a drip. A makeshift drip of propofol going into Michael`s body. The tubing wasn`t found that had the propofol in it. They just couldn`t prove it beyond a reasonable doubt that that drip happened, but let`s counter that because then you say, OK, that unforeseen intervening act was Michael Jackson pushing that propofol into or taking that Lorazepam.

The problem with that is, Conrad Murray knew that Michael Jackson had a propensity for drugs, and because of that knowledge, that still caused -- substantially caused the death of Michael Jackson by leaving that bedroom.

GRACE: So I`m supposed to believe that Conrad Murray starts to drip, a propofol drip, and that somehow Michael Jackson wakes up out of that and reinjects himself?

CASAREZ: The defense is saying there was no drip. That Conrad Murray put 25 milligrams of propofol --

GRACE: No drip at all?

CASAREZ: -- into Michael Jackson`s body, and that 25 milligrams was because he was trying to wean him off of it because he realized there was a problem.

GRACE: Then why did he buy four gallons, Jean?

CASAREZ: Because he admits he did it for two months because he realized then there was a problem and he had to wean him off of it. So originally he agreed to what Michael Jackson wanted. Then realized there was a problem. I`ve got to get him off this drug.

GRACE: Joining me right now a special guest, Mike Walker, senior editor, "National Enquirer."

Mike, I know you know a lot more about this case than you can even say. You know all the evidence that`s not allowed in the courtroom.

I find it very difficult to believe that a doctor gets four gallons, gallons -- think of a gallon of milk -- four gallons of propofol only to be used in surgery in an operating room, and that he says he didn`t give it to Michael Jackson? Then why did he buy four gallons of it?

MIKE WALKER, SENIOR REPORTER, NATIONAL ENQUIRER, COVERING STORY: And he bought four gallons without buying all of the monitoring equipment that needs to be used if you`re going to use propofol, which, of course, you`re not even supposed to be using, outside of a hospital environment.

I mean here is a man, I don`t know, whether it`s family tradition, his father, was censured by the Texas State Medical Board for dispensing dangerous drugs. His medical license was limited. He couldn`t -- wasn`t able to write prescriptions.

And here we see the son doing the same thing. I just say to you -- I know you hear people talking about this. What self-respecting doctor would take on a job like this? Servicing an obvious addict. And he`s not the only doctor who did it, I can`t tell you any more about that at this moment. But he`s not the only one.

GRACE: Hey, Mike, what do you think about this jury? What are they going to do?

WALKER: I always bet against L.A. juries, but in this particular case Dr. Murray is not a celebrity by any stretch of the imagination, and Michael Jackson is a celebrity, even though the defense says that Michael Jackson the celebrity is the one who killed himself and caused his own death.

I think this is going to be speedy. I really do. I think the prosecution did a wonderful job summing up. I`ve talked to many people. All my female reporters are gaga for this prosecutor. He is -- you know, apparently a pretty cute guy. But I found him to be really, really excellent. I don`t know how you found him to be, but I thought he did a wonderful job summing up.

GRACE: Well, Mike Walker, you know, cute, cute, cute in L.A., in Hollywood. That`s a -- everybody is cute in L.A. It`s easy to be cute when you`re 20 or 30 years old. So to me that doesn`t factor in it, what the prosecutor looks like. What really --

WALKER: I suspected it wouldn`t.

GRACE: What really has hit home with me is the horrible, the horrible shape that Jackson was in and Conrad Murray, out of greed, took advantage of him, charging him $150,000 a month.

With me right now Mike Garcia, former Jackson body guard.

Mike, thank you for being with us. What were your observations of Conrad Murray?

MIKE GARCIA, FORMER BODY GUARD FOR MICHAEL JACKSON: Thank you for having me, Miss Grace. First of all, I just want to say how disappointing it was to see Mr. Jackson deceased in the new picture that was displayed in the media. It was in poor taste, and it was -- it wasn`t good for his children. It was a sad thing --

GRACE: Yes. Well, I`ve got a news flash for you Garcia. No offense. But this is a homicide trial, and to prove a homicide -- I don`t know if you`ve ever prosecuted a murder case or not, but you have to have a dead body, and no prosecutor wants to show just for kicks a victim`s dead naked body, all right? That`s not what this is about. But I understand --

GARCIA: Well, one thing -- one thing, Miss Grace, is they have to show that --

GRACE: As a friend -- as I was saying, as a friend to Michael Jackson, I didn`t like it either. I didn`t like it either, but a homicide trial is not a pretty thing. What I`m trying to ask you --

GARCIA: If they need to show that in trial, that`s fine. If they need to show that on the media, that`s -- that`s a different thing. That was my point.

GRACE: Sir, what were your observations of Conrad Murray?

GARCIA: I think the trial is kind of a no brainer. I mean the fact that there was no proper equipment available for Mr. Jackson, the fact that, you know, he wasn`t doing the necessary care for him.

I mean, $150,000 a month, you would think that there would be better equipment and even added help, you know, with Mr. Jackson at the time, so as I watched this trial and as things unfold, it really seems just kind of a no brainer what the verdict is going to be.

GRACE: OK. I`m going to try one more time, Mr. Garcia. You worked in the Jackson home. You observed Conrad Murray. What were your observations of Dr. Conrad Murray?

GARCIA: He was a nice guy.

GRACE: What do you mean by that?

GARCIA: What do you mean by that?

GARCIA: When he came to the house, you know, the children were sick, Mr. Jackson was sick so he was treating them for colds, and that was here in Las Vegas at that time, so, you know, his impression to us was it seemed that he was -- you know, he was a good guy, and he had Mr. Jackson`s best intentions, but, you know, as the trial unfolds, you know, you can kind of see that there was, you know, a lot of negligence.

GRACE: You know, Mike Garcia, you`ve really hit the nail on the head. What`s going happen in this trial is that Conrad Murray does come across, even though he didn`t take the stand, he has this gravitas, this presence. He`s an imposing figure, he`s 6`4". He sits there like a dignified doctor. People like they`re doctors generally, and he comes across as a nice guy, just like Mike Garcia said, and Garcia knows. He`s been in the Jackson home. He`s seen Conrad Murray.

We are taking your calls. I want to go very quickly to Dr. Michael Arnall. What is your take? Dr. Michael Arnall, board certified forensic pathologist joining us out of Denver.

I want you to weigh in on what you believed happened, Dr. Arnall.

DR. MICHAEL ARNALL, BOARD CERTIFIED FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Well, this doctor, his judgment is completely altered by all-consuming greed, and his behavior was preposterously reckless.

You know your guest said well, he didn`t have anyone help him. He couldn`t get anyone to help him do this because this is essentially insane, all but insane. No rational physician would do this.

GRACE: We are live and taking your calls very quickly.

Angela in Florida. What`s your question, dear?

ANGELA, CALLER FROM FLORIDA: Well, kudos to you, Nancy, for "Dancing with the Stars."

GRACE: Thank you.

ANGELA: And I`m a recovering addict myself, and I have been clean now for six years, but when I was using and I was going to the doctor or I would go to any doctor, you know an addict has a lot of behavior where they`re going to come up with all kinds of excuse to get medication, but a good doctor and any doctor that I have been to could always read what I was after.

I cannot see Conrad Murray knowing that this -- that Michael had a drug addiction like he did, but yet kept giving him the medication. Kept giving him more medication. Greed. His actions in trial, he just seems kind of scary and creepy to me sitting at that -- at the desk waiting and watching. He wouldn`t even look at the jury while the prosecution was giving their closing arguments.

GRACE: You`re right, Angela in Florida. He wouldn`t even look up.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Assuming Conrad Murray sent from my iPhone. Does that accurately reflect the body (INAUDIBLE)?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, it is.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: You should be monitoring your patient. Do you really have time to be typing out an e-mail?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Parade of girlfriends up on the stand. We see Michelle Bella, Sade Anding, Nicole Alvarez.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Did Dr. Murray tell you that he was acting as Michael Jackson`s personal physician?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So he`s using his relationship with Michael Jackson to get all these women.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s Michael Jackson.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: We are live in L.A., and we are heading into a verdict watch in the Michael Jackson death trial.

To Ellie Jostad, please tell me my are wrong that Dr. Conrad Murray was not enjoying a day at the beach yesterday?

ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE CHIEF EDITORIAL PRODUCER: Yes, that`s right. He was actually seen at the beach with his girlfriend and their child. This was yesterday.

GRACE: Did he have on a thong?

JOSTAD: As you know, the defense --

GRACE: I just want to know.

JOSTAD: No, thankfully no, he did not. He was wearing jeans. Pants rolled up, walking in the surf.

GRACE: Thank heaven for small -- oh, we`ve got a photo. OK.

JOSTAD: There we go.

GRACE: Glad to know he is happy and healthy while Jackson`s children will now have the rest of their life without a father.

You know what? I was right in there in Jackson`s child molestation trial. Because I believed the various boy witnesses. That doesn`t matter now. What matters now is someone was killed, and Jackson`s children, regardless of what you think about Michael Jackson, they don`t have a mother, now they don`t have a father.

You know, to Dr. Paula Bloom, clinical psychologist, I worry that I was so much older than other a lot of moms when I gave birth. I got pregnant at 47. I worry about my children. Who`s going to take care of them when I`m gone? I actually lay awake and worry and pray about that at night.

I mean, they`ll have each other, but they won`t have a mommy who loves them more than anything. They may not have a daddy to be there for them. And that`s the spot that Jackson`s children are in now. And people are actually trying to blame Michael Jackson because he was an addict.

PAULA BLOOM, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST, BLOGGER, PAULABLOOM.COM: Right.

GRACE: But it`s not right.

BLOOM: No, it isn`t. And, listen, I`m a mom, too, I`m a little younger but I`m a mom, too, and I worry about those things as well. But here`s the thing that I haven`t heard people talking about so much right now.

It is very easy for somebody to slowly start letting go of their ethics. Something that can happen, but Nancy, yes, I just -- oh, this whole thing is very overwhelming, isn`t it?

GRACE: You know you`re right. Slowly but surely, Paula, he lost his ethics.

BLOOM: Right.

GRACE: And now Jackson is dead. You know you`re the first one to bring that up, Paula Bloom.

To Brian Oxman, attorney for Jackson`s father, Joe Jackson. Weigh in, Oxman.

BRIAN OXMAN, ATTORNEY FOR JOE JACKSON, ON THE SCENE OUTSIDE COURTHOUSE: Oh, boy, Nancy. He didn`t lose his ethics, he lost his mine. The problem is that people who are around Michael Jackson would do anything, say anything, make anything happen because this was just Michael`s life. It was crazy.

I understand what happened to this doctor. He lost his ethics. He lost his mind, and he did things that nobody would ever do, except around Michael Jackson. And the result, Nancy, Michael died, and let me tell you, the prosecution nailed it right on the head.

GRACE: You know, another thing is I don`t care how much money Jackson may have left them, for those children , frankly, by the time you pay up all of his debts for Neverland and this and that, I don`t know how much money there`s going to be left for them, but it`s not about money. It`s about having a father, having a mother. Your parents. That`s what it`s about.

Now they don`t have that.

Out to the lines. Joy in North Carolina. Hi, dear. What`s your question?

JOY, CALLER FROM NORTH CAROLINA: Hi, Nancy. I`m a mother of three, and my oldest daughter lost her father, my first husband, when she was 5, so I have been through that, and I remember just whenever she -- I was in the hospital, and she almost had a nervous breakdown with me being sick as well because she`d been through the reality of losing a parent. It was real for her, and I go through the same exact thing myself.

GRACE: And you know what, Joy, here`s the thing. I still call my mother and father and ask them advice. Every day I talk to them. At least once. And here I am at my age relying on my parents who are the closest to me, and they don`t -- look at their young age, and they`re not going to have their mother and daddy.

Joy, you said about your daughter nearly having a nervous breakdown when you are in the hospital because she didn`t have her father either. That`s the spot these children are left in. And I wonder if the jury is taking that into account.

Unleash the lawyers. Michael Hardy, New York. Renee Rockwell, Atlanta.

OK, Rockwell, second strike at the bull. Here`s your chance. What`s your best defense in this case?

RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: That it`s negligence, that it`s not a homicide. Maybe he needs to lose his license. He does not need to go to prison for this, Nancy.

GRACE: Are you familiar with the California Involuntary Homicide statute that states negligence, criminal negligence, is a ground for involuntary manslaughter? It is negligence. That`s what involuntary manslaughter is out here.

ROCKWELL: But, Nancy, what if -- and this is a what if situation because you can consider that.

GRACE: Yes.

ROCKWELL: If you don`t know exactly what happened, what if Michael did give himself medication? I don`t think that the state has met its burden by considering all the --

GRACE: OK. Let me ask the doctor that exact thing, Renee.

ROCKWELL: -- what happened?

GRACE: To Dr. Michael Arnall, I`m sure you`ve read the autopsy report that says he could not possibly have self-injected and his body was pumped full of propofol. It`s not like he shot himself up with a syringe. That`s not what happened here. His dead body was still getting pumped full of propofol as he was lying there, Dr. Arnall.

Do you believe he could have serf administer, Doctor?

ARNALL: I don`t believe it for a second, but even if someone did believe it, someone has to understand that that physician put this individual into a state where he could hardly be responsible for his own behavior.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Michael Jackson trusted Conrad Murray. He trusted him with his life. He paid with his life.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: We are live in L.A. and we are taking your calls.

To Michael Hardy, defense lawyer in New York. You`ve been intimately involved in various Michael Jackson issues. Weigh in. What`s your best defense in this case?

MICHAEL HARDY, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, you know, the best defense is, in fact, that, you know, the level of negligence may not have risen to the level of criminal negligence. You know, you can be negligent and you can be criminally negligent, and the argument clearly has to be that he didn`t rise to that next level, but there are no winners here.

Michael Jackson is dead, he`s not going to come back. Conrad Murray`s life, whatever it was, will never be the same, he probably will never practice law again. So it is, it`s very sad. But I do believe that whether he`s convicted or not, there was an obligation to prosecute the case.

GRACE: Back to Jean Casarez, legal correspondent, "In Session," you`ve been in court all day long. What are court watchers saying, verdict tomorrow? Quick verdict, slow verdict, mistrial?

CASAREZ: It`s Friday. The jurors have paid such good attention for six weeks now, there definitely could be a verdict Friday, but there`s a lot of evidence, it could go to next week, but I think they`re ready to do it.

GRACE: Everybody, let`s stop and remember Petty Officer 1st Class Jeffrey Lucas, 33, Corbit, Oregon. Killed Afghanistan, awarded Bronze Star, Purple Heart. Four Navy and Marine Corps Achievement Medals, loved sports, gave up a football scholarship to serve. Told his father he was born to be a Navy SEAL. Leaves behind parents, Rick and Pat, brother Jamie, widow Rhonda, son Seth.

Jeffrey Lucas, American hero.

Thank you to our guests. But our biggest thanks is to you for being with us.

Tonight Noah`s 5k walk raising money and awareness for an 11-year-old boy Noah suffering from uncontrollable and constant seizures. Saturday, November 5, 12:00 p.m. Frederick Park, Turkey Lake, Orlando. For info or donations, go to facebook.com/noahscart.

Everyone, I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. We will be here at the L.A. courthouse in our own way seeking justice. And until then, good night, friend.

END