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Dr. Drew
Inside the Mind of a Child Rapist
Aired November 17, 2011 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: Here we go.
It`s the question none of us likes to ask, but for the sake of our children, we must. What is inside the mind of child molester? We have a man here who knows.
Then, a mansion, a millionaire and a mysterious death of his girlfriend. Case closed? Not quite.
And a comedian Darrell Hammond`s harrowing childhood, he is a survivor, and he`s with us tonight. Let`s get started.
Good evening, welcome. There`s more news out of Penn State tonight. Let`s go right to State College and HLN`s Mike Galanos - Mike.
MIKE GALANOS, HLN ANCHOR: Well, Drew, it`s our worse fears concerning this sex abuse scandal that`s rocked Penn State. More potential victims coming forward. And here`s what happened.
We know Jerry Sandusky gave the interview to NBC`s Bob Costas. Since that time, victims are making phone calls to attorneys. There`s an attorney in St. Paul who received at least 10 phone calls from potential victims from the 1980s. There`s an attorney right here in State College, Andy Shubin, who received phone calls from potential victims, and these people say they were victimized by Sandusky back in the 1970s.
Now, all of this has to be investigated, but Drew, the timeline fits. Jerry Sandusky founded The Second Mile Organization back in 1977. The first Grand Jury presentment victim comes from 1994. So that is a 17-year window where there could be many more victims.
Now, concerning the victims, we do know there are eight in the Grand Jury presentment, and the mother of victim number one speaking out, and it is sad when you hear their story, and hear how the son heard Jerry Sandusky`s voice and it brought him to tears.
Drew, back to you.
PINSKY: Thank you, Mike.
Tonight, the Penn State scandal has cast a spotlight on a subject that I deal with all the time, but most of this country seems to want to avert its gaze from it, we can no longer. This case has really brought it to the forefront and that is pedophilia or childhood sexual abuse.
The charges Jerry Sandusky faces are disturbing to say the least, even more devastating, of course, the innocent lives of families that are destroyed when such incidences in fact occur.
Now, here`s Jerry Sandusky in a 1987 NBC interview talking about his work with children.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JERRY SANDUSKY, CHARGED WITH SEXUALLY ABUSING CHILDREN: I enjoy being around children. I enjoy their enthusiasm. I just have a good time with them. Everybody needs people to care for them. Sometimes they don`t want it, sometimes they don`t understand what you`re trying to do, but they want to be disciplined.
One of the biggest things would be the trust that would be developed. What we`re trying to be is what we think is a true friend.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Remember, he has publicly proclaimed his innocence, although eight boys told a Grand Jury he was sexually - well, sexually inappropriate is another (ph) statement with them.
In more general terms, let`s think what - about what makes a pedophile tick. Can child sex abusers be rehabilitated and how can parents protect their kids from a predator?
Joining me tonight, former NFL player and advocate for victims of childhood sex abuse, Heath Evans, and NFL analyst as well. They always remind me to put that in there and make that, NFL Network, that was.
HEATH EVANS, ADVOCATE FOR VICTIMS OF CHILDHOOD SEXUAL ABUSE: NFL Network.
PINSKY: Here we go.
And also we`ve got Criminal Defense Attorney Bernard Brody. And a convicted sex offender and the author of the book "Overcoming Sexual Terrorism," Jake Goldenflame.
So, Jake, I want to go to you first. You - can you tell us exactly what it is you had done to earn a five-year prison sentence?
JAKE GOLDENFLAME, CONVICTED SEX OFFENDER: I abused a member of my family, served five years, during which I was given an enormous amount of help by the Corrections System in California and have now become the project director of a nonprofit organization that when invited to do so by the Corrections System actually assists convicted sex offenders who are on parole in accomplishing their parole and recovering control of their lives.
PINSKY: OK. So a lot of people I`m sure you`re aware are skeptical that people that do this can be rehabilitated. What`s your experience been, and what happened in your own case?
GOLDENFLAME: Let`s start with start. You raised a question I thought was a very good one a moment ago, what is in the mind of a child molester, that`s the question. And the answer quite frankly is demons. We don`t use that term anymore, but it`s very much the same thing. Today we call it a sexual compulsion.
That is what happens to this person is they find themselves taken over and under the control of an urge that they cannot stop, and usually it`s because they, themselves were abused and were not given the treatment to recover from their abuse.
PINSKY: What makes this all so challenging is to know that the kids who are absolutely devastated for today are the potential perpetrators of tomorrow. Heath, you wanted to comment on this.
EVANS: Jake, one quick question. What are the accountability factors that need to be set in for a predator to be healed or to not, you know, inflict pain on another child?
GOLDENFLAME: Our system should be one that if you molest a child, you go to prison, and you don`t get out of prison until your treatment team in prison says you`re ready for community supervision.
PINSKY: Well, Jake, you bring up something. I - you`re singing, sort of you`re speaking a language that I understand very well, and professionals do kind of know when somebody is adequately engaged in treatment that they are once again I wouldn`t call it rehabilitated, but it`s reasonable that they could be in the community. A lot of states don`t have those kinds of resources.
GOLDENFLAME: (INAUDIBLE) supervision.
PINSKY: Yes, I understand. I`m with you. Now, listen.
GOLDENFLAME: Yes.
PINSKY: I deal with these kinds of things all the time and it has to be a tremendous structure and tremendous accountability and tremendous consequences for lack of compliance. But a lot of states don`t have those resources.
GOLDENFLAME: Well, we`re not talking about huge expenses here. With GPS technology, you can keep track of where these people are, with a good parole team using GPS technology, they can supervise these guys and hold them to a reasonable accountability, and make sure that they meet it.
When they say you`re supposed to be at your treatment providers once a week, they`ve got a way to see they actually go there without having to go out in the field themselves and check. So the cost has gone down because of GPS technology.
PINSKY: Bernard Brody, I`m going to bring you in. You actually defend people that have been engaged in these behaviors. Does this conversation sound familiar to you and do you believe that this is reasonable what Jake is suggesting?
BERNARD BRODY, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, you know, first of all, I`m no expert in pedophilia. I represent people who are charged with these types of offenses, and some are guilty, some aren`t, and you know, it`s really, really dangerous to start trying to classify people in certain professions or in certain situations as pedophiles.
I applaud what Jake is doing. In fact, Dr. Gene Abel, one of the leading experts in diagnosing pedophilia in this country, has used for decades questionnaires that he has sent to admitted sex offenders in prisons to try to develop his own screening questionnaire to try to diagnose people who have not yet been diagnosed.
And so, yes, we have to learn from the people who have been, you know, classified as pedophiles themselves.
PINSKY: Here is NBC`s Bob Costas`s recent interview with Jerry Sandusky, where he says he used bad judgment taking showers with the boys. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SANDUSKY (via telephone): I could say that, you know, I have done some of those things. I have horsed around with kids. I have showered after workouts. I have hugged them and I have touched their leg, without intent of sexual contact. If you look at it that way, there are things that - that wouldn`t - you know, would be accurate.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Jake, are you as disturbed by that interview as I was, particularly the thinking - this "stinking" thinking.
GOLDENFLAME: I`m very disturbed by it on two levels. On the one hand, the very idea that it`s OK apparently in his mind to touch a child`s leg in the shower -
PINSKY: That`s the thinking, that`s the stinking thinking I`m talking about. That stinking thinking. There`s something wrong with his motivation system right there.
GOLDENFLAME: Yes. The second thing is and I want to just play with this a moment with you if I may present it to you. You know, in the beginning of becoming a child molester, when a person starts moving into that valence, they often don`t realize until afterwards that something alien to their normal mentality is taking them over, and they`ll - they`ll do something that at the time they think is harmless, but in fact is a step after a step after a step that ultimately puts them in a situation of such temptation they lose control and molest.
And only afterwards can they go back and retrace the pattern to say it started back then and I didn`t understand it. That`s why I say it`s a compulsion. It`s not the same as saying the person is a child molester, it`s the compulsion that is the molester and it infects them and the infection starts when they were abused.
PINSKY: This is something you have to do to somebody and affects the rest of their life and affect future generations because it`s transmitted.
EVANS: Well - and that`s the real issue, what`s not resolved will be reproduced. And then that`s the great thing about Jake here is that obviously he`s dealt with these so-called demons, and obviously in a perfect world, we`d love to get to these five-year-old kids. But why the math and the statistics tell us that if we don`t get to them, a lot of these, you know, victims become predators. It`s an awful - it`s an awful cycle that we`ve got to find a way to end it.
PINSKY: And, Jake, I got to go to break. But one other thing is that people have to be motivated to get better, that`s the hard part of this thing. They have to really want to get better.
GOLDENFLAME: Yes.
PINSKY: And like in any compulsion or addiction, getting them to sign on to that is sometimes the hard part.
Go to HLNTV.com to check out the "Must See, Must Share" stories and see what made the HLN Ten tonight.
Next, parents, can you spot a predator? We`ll see after the break. Stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Penn State - Penn State will come through it, they really will.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I said, "Why would it make - why did it make you cry?" And he - he said, "Because I`m afraid - I`m afraid he`ll go free."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That was from ABC, the mother of an alleged victim said her son cried when he heard Sandusky proclaim he`s innocent because he`s afraid the former coach might not be convicted and might go free.
Now, if you remember, the Penn State scandal is not a sports story. It is a story about allegations of sexual abuse of children. So how do you protect your kid from a child molester? What if you knew what someone what someone like that was thinking? What do you say to your kids? What ticks (ph) they use?
Jake, you in a way prove a point to us. No one looking at you would ever suspect that that was your history or your M.O. Are there things you can tell parents to help them be vigilant or teach their kids so this kind of thing doesn`t happen to them?
GOLDENFLAME: Yes. Well, you take into account the fact that 90 percent of the children who are abused are not abused by people who use force, but persuasion. What you can do to protect your children is to teach your children to have a healthy sense of self-respect and to trust their parents that if somebody acts inappropriately toward that child in any way, the child will let the parent know, so the parent can back the child and make it stop.
PINSKY: It`s a little bit of a Catch Twenty Two, though, Jake. Because as you and I know well, the kids that are the best victims are the ones that were either abandoned at home, neglected or themselves emotionally or physically abused. Those are the ones that these guys seem to sniff out. How - how do they sniff - how did you sniff out your victims?
GOLDENFLAME: It turned out as a matter of fact that most of the people that I had victimized in fact turned out to be teenage prostitutes who were playing on people in the gay part of town for kicks and for $5 after school, so it`s not really the same thing as what you`re looking for, which is the stranger danger type of situation.
PINSKY: Right.
GOLDENFLAME: That wasn`t what I did.
PINSKY: Heath, you wanted to ask Jake a question about what he does now to make sure things don`t go of the rail.
EVANS: Well, Jake, the accountability question for me, I mean, I firmly believe that people can be rehabilitated, but my belief comes into that there has to be daily work. I mean, for a male, there`s things that I focus on every single day that I do this, this, and this. So what are those daily accountability factors that allow you to walk free and you`re not a danger to our children?
GOLDENFLAME: I made access, I gained access during my imprisonment to what I can only describe as a deeper center, and my accountability to that deeper center takes the form of a vow that I actually speak to myself when I wake up every morning that this is what I`m accountable to. It is something living for me that I don`t want to lose contact with, my inappropriate conduct.
It was the force you might call it that I found within myself that gave me the will power and the ability to turn away from sexual temptations of a - of a destructive kind. So I renew my vow every morning. I remind myself of it during the day. I consider myself alive for that purpose, to serve that higher consciousness or higher center of myself. That`s my life.
EVANS: Jake, one more question. What would you say as a convicted sexual predator, offender, what`s the percentage of predators that have the will power, the self-discipline that you have to be able to make this change where they should be set free?
GOLDENFLAME: The only figure I can give you that I know of that`s reliable was developed up in Canada by their leading demographer, and what he found was that three out of every four convicted offenders remained re- offense free over a 15-year tracking period, which is pretty good. But that means one out of four did not.
PINSKY: Here is the mother of alleged victim number one, again on ABC talking about Jerry Sandusky taking showers with young boys. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you think the facts support his contention that he`s just a jock playing with kids in the locker room?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, it`s not games. It`s a planned out strategy to groom children to molest.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Tell my viewers a little about this grooming process, if you would.
GOLDENFLAME: Well, to use the best known example recently that I`ve heard from somebody who was a victim of it, we had a person living down the street from a young boy who went out of his way to introduce himself to the boy`s parents, welcoming them to the neighborhood, offering friendship to them, casually mentioning to the boy himself, if you`re ever in my part of this block you want to stop by and see me, you`re welcome to do so.
He left him with the impression a very nice, friendly guy. When the boy went down the street and saw the man outside, the man was friendly again, invited him to come on inside, if you would like to watch some porno, that would be OK. Now, this is a boy who`s very young in his teens. He`s naturally very attracted by the idea of watching pornography. When he gets in there, the man offers him some marijuana, he accepts the marijuana because that`s daring and the kind of thing that he wants to experiment with. And under the influence of the high from the marijuana and the stimulation of pornography, he was absolutely helpless to do anything further when the man came onto him sexually.
And afterwards, he felt badly about it, but he told me he didn`t want to report it because of the hassle involved. So he kept it to himself. It happened a second time. And at the third attempt, he decided it wasn`t for him and he cut bait with it and he stopped. So that`s how it is done. The grooming is a step by step process to put the kid in a situation where they don`t have the faculty to say no.
PINSKY: Adolescents don`t hang out with people middle aged. I mean, you just - you have to think about people`s motivation and maybe a good reason that somebody (INAUDIBLE) is hanging out with a 45-year-old.
EVANS: And the whole scenario of him stopping by, come swing by the house, I mean, the parents red flags should have gone off in every direction, don`t dare go to that home. But that`s the parenting issue we face today. Parents (INAUDIBLE) they don`t pay enough attention to their kids. You`ve got to know your kids to ultimately be able to protect them from predators.
PINSKY: That`s right.
Bernard, last question is to you. So I know a lot of people watching this have no sympathy with someone who has engaged in these kinds of activities and wants them sort of, you know, just - they get enraged in a way that they have irrational desires towards these people. What do we do with that and what`s the legal system`s responsibility to this?
BRODY: Well, you know, just as Jake was discussing earlier, this is a disease, and it needs to be treated just like any other disease, just like alcoholism, just like drug addiction. And, you know, to just say we need to lock these people away and throw away the key, you know, I don`t see why we treat them any differently than a drug addict.
I understand obviously, you know, the nature of the harm here is much different, but at the end of the day, what`s inside the mind of the person is the same.
PINSKY: Do you find the legal systems are cooperative with treatment as a, you know, long term sustained treatment with accountability that we`re talking about here tonight that the legal system is enlightened to that regard and doing that?
BRODY: I don`t think so, for a couple of reasons. I think, one, is right now it`s not politically popular to sentence people to probation with treatment. Everybody right now wants to lock everybody up.
PINSKY: Right.
BRODY: Number two - and number two, just the resources. The resources just aren`t there.
PINSKY: I think I - but that`s the point. I think people watching this right now are actually going to be angry with me for not - for, you know, giving people with child sexual abuse, the - even allowing them the moniker of illness is going to upset people. So we - we have to think about it. I just hope people will think about it.
Thank you to my panel. You guys did an excellent job.
I just want you all to just think about this. I`m not saying we should or shouldn`t be doing. I do know that anyone who has suffered from these kinds of impulses can get treatment. Please do get treatment before you hurt somebody, please. That`s the bottom line here. After you hurt somebody, the wolves are out.
We are inundated with questions and comments about the Penn State scandal. We`re going to hear what you`re saying next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: The Penn State scandal`s an opportunity for all of us to think about how we abuse, as well as the culture of secrets and people in power. And you`ve got a lot to say about all of this. Let`s get right to the phones.
Jon in California.
JON, TORRANCE, CALIFORNIA: Hi, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Jon.
JON: As your panel disturbingly pointed out in a - on a recent show, the average molester has 117 victims. So why isn`t Sandusky in custody, monitored to protect other possible victims? I get that the judge didn`t recuse herself, which is unacceptable, but shouldn`t there be other safeguards in place to protect the public?
PINSKY: Absolutely. The judge was taken off that case, so that problem has been taken care of, but her handling of the case has been suspect. I completely agree with you.
And, yes, isn`t this guy a little bit more dangerous than, say, Lindsay Lohan, somebody like that? And, my goodness, even if he`s just guilty of horsing around in the showers, the guy is more of a problem than many people that are sitting in prison right now.
Joy on Twitter writes, "Isn`t it potentially dangerous to suggest that survivors are more likely to abuse?" You know, I couldn`t disagree with you more strongly. To say that it`s dangerous to talk about the facts so people can anticipate this and get help before they become a problem. If you heard our panel for the last - the first part of the show, the fact is if someone is a perpetrator, they nearly always had sexual abuse themselves, and there definitely is a risk of somebody who`s sexually abused becoming a perpetrator, unless they get treatment. If they get treatment, that risk goes away or at least it diminish markedly.
Gina writes, "I had a friend who was sexually abused as a young child, yet she committed suicide at age 37 - goes to show the effects of abuse are lasting." That is absolutely the true - the case. The fact is, this - this statement I keep repeating, that the gift that keeps on giving - and I don`t mean it`s a gift, I mean it`s a curse. Irony, folks.
Gift that keeps giving is abuse. Once it happens, it effects somebody the rest of their life. If they - they are lucky enough not to be haunted by post traumatic stress disorder, mood disturbances; if they`re lucky enough to have - not to have those psychiatric consequences, guess what happens? They tend to bring perpetrators into their life. They tend to be attracted to them.
So, on so many levels, this is destructive and tends to be passed from this generation to the next.
Mary tweets, "Why do so many families feel that the subject of sexual abuse is so taboo?" I`m not sure that it`s taboo to talk about, it`s just awful to talk about. And I understand it is difficult and uncomfortable to bring up with kids, but we`ve got to do it. We live in a time when that cancer is growing amongst us.
As you said - as you heard in that last - that first call, average predator predates on117 people on average, so this isn`t a one to one transmission. This is exponential to a power of two growth in our world.
Finally, Michael writes, Facebook, "I think that Sandusky is a very arrogant man for trying to sway the court of public opinion by doing the NBC interview. Would you agree?" You know, it reminds me very much of Conrad Murray doing that interview, that interrogation with the police. I think Murray believed, I think this guy believes that if they just - if just people knew what they - what they were all about, they would - they would see how great they were, and how - how guiltless they are, when, in fact, quite the opposite is the case.
All right. Now, next, you know Darrell Hammond as the - well, he`s the fake Bill Clinton, John McCain, Al Gore - there he is - and a host of others who made us laugh on "Saturday Night Live," but the real Darrell, in fact he`s someone I`ve known for quite some time, the real Darrell is someone you may be surprised to learn about. He, himself, has been the victim of various forms of abuse and has recently come through a harrowing course of treatment, and is here to tell his story after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (voice-over): He made millions of us laugh for more than a decade, but "Saturday Night Live`s" Darrell Hammond lived a secret life that was anything but funny. Childhood abuse, violence at the hands of his mother almost destroyed him. How did he survive?
And later, the Coronado mansion mystery. Was there a rush to judgment about how a millionaire`s girlfriend died? It`s a classic who done it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (on-camera): Darrell Hammond, he uttered the iconic words "Live from New York, it`s Saturday Night" more than any other cast member in SNL history, but his comedic talent was masking a very painful life. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY (on-camera): Darrell Hammond spent a record breaking 14 seasons on "Saturday Night Live."
DARRELL HAMMOND, AUTHOR, "GOD, IF YOU`RE NOT UP THERE, I`M F$&`@!": Mr. President, have a seat.
(LAUGHTER)
PINSKY: His spot on impressions of high profile figures like President Bill Clinton, Al Gore, and Sean Connery kept America laughing, but while Hammond was earning praise as a comedic genius, the reality of his life was far from funny.
The physical and emotional torment he suffered at the hands of his troubled parents led him down a dark path of alcoholism and self- mutilation. As he kept America in stitches, he was cutting himself backstage at "Saturday Night Live" and masking unthinkable trauma.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY (on-camera): Darrell Hammond is the author of a new book. It`s called, "God, if you`re not up there," -- I am word to follow that I can`t repeat here on HLN. He is joining me now from New York.
Now, Darrell, I`m going to take you down memory lane for a second. Last time you and I saw each other, we were working on the Cinematic Triumph New York Minute with the Olson twins. You and I got stuck in the great blackout in the summer of 2003. And I remember wandering the streets of Toronto with you looking for food and water. Do you remember that?
HAMMOND: Yes. Yes. I remember it well, actually.
PINSKY: We fantasized that it was some sort of a terrorist attack, but you seemed great back then. I mean, so, I mean, you always have functioned at a very high level. So, I think that`s probably why people were so surprised by the book. And I want to also point out for my viewers that to me, Darrell, this is -- I`m so proud -- well, that`s not the right word.
I`m so excited that you decided to come out with this because this is such a common problem. And listen, in the shadow of a big scandal at Penn State where somebody was abused, different kind of abuse, but still abuse, and I think this book comes out at a very important time. Did you want to help other people who were abuse survivors?
HAMMOND: I know it sounds kind of arrogant, but I mean, someone did say, I mean, if you could help one kid, would you do it, and I thought yes, because I`ve been wanting to write this book forever. And, "Saturday Night Live" was over. There wasn`t much going on.
So, I thought let`s do it now. But I`ve been wanting to write it for a long time. I`ve been wanting to write about agreements between perpetrator and victim in which the victim agrees to remain silent.
PINSKY: Tell me about that.
HAMMOND: Well, the victim is terrified, you know, that something far worse than what`s already occurred is going to occur, you know? I mean, as bad as more physical trauma could be, a parent withdrawing their love from you.
PINSKY: Right. Exactly. And you know, terror is the common denominator in abuse. And terror shatters the young brain`s ability to regulate which cause more emotional disregulation now in adulthood. Now, I heard your Stern interview. I thought it was fantastic.
And two things jumped out. That I think people would want to know, one was the magnitude of the abuse that you went through with your mom literally stabbing your tongue with a knife. That sort of got people`s attention.
HAMMOND: Yes.
PINSKY: And that you had treatment. That you went to a trauma program for three months? Is that right?
HAMMOND: Yes. I was in a trauma program. I was in one program for six weeks, and then another one for the rest of that time, yes.
PINSKY: I rarely get to talk to people publicly that a bit on this side of the treatment process. Can you tell people what it`s like to go from someone who`s carrying all this emotional baggage, pain, and disregulation into the recovery process?
HAMMOND: Well, when the recovery process works, and you start seeing results, it`s damn fine. It feels great. Along the route, it`s a pretty rough patch of road, you know? I mean, I couldn`t have a breakthrough until I met this great doctor, and he had me every day for six weeks.
And he got up inside my head, and I don`t want to be too boring, but he figured out my core beliefs, world beliefs, beliefs about myself, maybe my inner dialogue, what my internal rules were, really got up in my head and saw how I was, you know, nose diving this aircraft every single day of my life.
PINSKY: And you know, it`s my opinion that the big challenge in being an abuse survivor is trust, and being able to get close an open to another person. Would you agree with that, that learning that ability to stay close to somebody again?
HAMMOND: You know, there`s a great phrase in one of the 12-step programs that says the real problem here that we fail to recognize is our true inability to have a true partnership with another human being.
PINSKY: Right. That`s it.
HAMMOND: Yes. I`ve been -- I`m a good friend, but I`m not good in relationships. I never have been.
PINSKY: And there was a substance piece of your recovery as well. How is your recovery going from addiction now?
HAMMOND: Well, it`s going pretty well because I`m not having night sweats and night terrors. I`m not having flashbacks. I`m not, you know, cutting any more. I`m only on one medication now. I`m on Wellbutrin, which, you know, is not, you know, too bad.
PINSKY: That`s nothing. It`s probable helping you not smoke. But you said something that`s very interesting that will slip past most people. You said you`re not having flashbacks any more. And I want to explain why that`s such a packed statement.
That when somebody is coming off drugs and alcohol, having withdrawal, even mild withdrawal symptoms, what we see all the time is vivid flashbacks to the traumas that they experienced in their childhood. It`s like they revivifying everything just at the time when they`re so miserable coming off drugs. Is that what you were talking about?
HAMMOND: Yes. I`m talking about an instance where you`re standing in a room and you`re aware that you`re in this room and you`re aware of the carpet and the walls and, you know, all the other senses are working just fine, and yet, you`re back in that kitchen in Melbourne, Florida and feeling exactly what you felt then when that was happening.
PINSKY: Now, I want to share an excerpt from Darrell`s book. It`s about his mother, Margaret. He writes, quote, "She used to recount cheerfully the time she beat me with her high heels and I began to bleed. I used to wake up in the morning wanting a mom, not my mom, but a mom. I wanted mothering, the magic I noticed in the hands and voices of other mothers."
Darrell, there`s many stories about your mom here. Her, you at the railroad trucks and her sort of letting you flirt with getting hit by a train, her hitting you with a knife in your tongue, all kind of horrible stuff. Have you reconciled with her? Have you been able to embrace whatever it was that made your mother the way she is?
HAMMOND: I have. I mean, I`ve had to perform some concept of forgiveness, but the way to do that for me was to actually realize that, A, I had become not such a nice guy in my life. Obviously, I mean, I didn`t break any laws or things like that, but I was selfish and I was mean. And I was ashamed that I had caused pain and fear for other people.
And I was really ashamed of that. And I thought to myself, she must have been innocent at one time or another. She did what she did because of something that happened to her. I did what I did because of something that happened to me. I mean, I always feel like cutting is not a problem. I think it`s the solution to a problem that`s going on at the time.
PINSKY: Right. And you know, I`ve said on the show a couple of times that abuse is the gift that keeps on giving, and what I mean by that. That`s an ironic statement for those of you that think I`m speaking literally. People actually take an aim at me for saying this as though I`m saying this actually a gift.
It is something that once it happens, it affects the person for the rest of their life. It keeps on giving the rest of their life, unless, they get treatment, and then, it becomes transgenerational. They do it to their kids. Undoubtedly your mom had something happen to her, is that right?
HAMMOND: She had to have been an innocent child at one point. But I mean, one of the weirdest things was, I remember thinking one day, you know, when I was going to trauma therapy one day, I thought, you know, this whole thing that happened in our house probably began hundreds of years ago in another country as you said, transgenerational.
And now, I have this genius doctor at this hospital saying to me, you know, you`re going to pass this onto your kid. You will pass this trauma on.
PINSKY: Yes. That is exactly right.
HAMMOND: Despite your best efforts, if you don`t drop your indictment against --
PINSKY: Right, because you had treatment, Darrell. You can break this transgenerational probably 200 or 300-year cycle. You can stop it or you may be have now. My concern is the others out there that are suffering in silence. What do you think we do with that?
And not everyone has access to three months of treatment or is willing to even get through that terror and speak up. What do we do with this problem?
HAMMOND: Well, I think if you see a cut on someone`s arm, especially like a child or teenager or something, you shouldn`t think that it happened as haphazardly as piece of newspaper blowing up against their leg, you know? Something terrible happened. That is a symptom of something terrible.
PINSKY: Thanks, Darrell.
Stay tuned to HLN and hlntv.com. Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: The questions are still the same, yet the story gets more bizarre in the Coronado mansion mystery. Was Rebecca Zahau`s death suicide or murder? The Zahau Family turned to Dr. Phil for answers. They had the body of Rebecca exhumed and a new autopsy was conducted. The results were revealed to the family on TV.
Joining me, Anne Bremner, attorney for the Zahau Family, Bernard Brody, criminal defense attorney, and Cyril Wecht, the famed forensic pathologist who exhumed and examined the body of Rebecca Zahau. Dr. Cyril Wecht, first to you, it strikes the ear strangely to think of doing something like this on daytime television, does it not?
DR. CYRIL WECHT, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Well, I did not conduct the exhumation on television, I conducted the autopsy privately in a proper fashion where the results were to be released when and to whom was the decision made by the family in conjunction with their attorney, Miss Bremner.
I don`t see anything particularly bizarre about that. Some people seem to be offended, suggesting that the Zahau family had no right to pursue this matter. I`ve done hundred exhumations over the years. I do several every year. And the people have a right to have a second autopsy done.
Sometimes, the bodies have been buried. I don`t see anything strange about this. The fact that it`s been presented on television, that you`re discussing it this evening, what is wrong with that? Are they supposed to be quiet and just go away quietly, passively like sheep?
PINSKY: I`m not suggesting that, but let`s be fair. It`s bizarre doing it on daytime television. Out of your tens of thousands of autopsy, ever presented one on daytime TV before?
WECHT: Well, sure. I repeat, sir, I did not do the autopsy on television. I discussed it on television. Have I discussed autopsies, second autopsies, exhumation autopsies on television, yes. Chandra Levy, Daniel Smith, Col. Shoe, many.
Absolutely, I have done that on a variety of shows, including some on CNN with your former colleague, Larry King. I don`t quite understand what the atypical aspect of this entire matter is.
PINSKY: I`m just asking the questions, and it is a little different doing it on a news broadcast than doing it on a daytime television program. That`s all I`m saying. But Anne, you answer that question. Help me understand it.
ANNE BREMNER, ATTORNEY FOR THE ZAHAU FAMILY: We were fortunate to have a forum and have Dr. Wecht who is world renowned and did such a wonderful job and such a sensitive job in talking about this autopsy, in completing this autopsy, which, of course, he concluded it`s not a suicide, and that`s very important to this family to get answers.
So, I mean, frankly, when you have a case like this, it`s so frustrating for me as their lawyer to not have any police assistance because they closed the case in a rush to judgment as a suicide. So, we need answers, and we need a public forum, and we`re so lucky, like I said, to have Cyril Wecht involved in this case.
PINSKY: And what did you guys find? Who wants to tell me? Cyril.
WECHT: What I found was consistent with the original autopsy. I said from the beginning that the autopsy was well performed. I had no questions about the actual undertaking of the gross, microscopic examination and so on. But what I found confirmed the doubts I had raised, the suspicions that I had, namely, when you put it all together, that this is a highly atypical, bizarre, rare situation.
Hands bound behind her back in a slip knot arrangement. Nobody has yet to my knowledge come forward and explained where Miss Zahau acquired this expertise and knowledge that Harry Houdini manifested 70 years ago. Her calves (ph) bound. The rope around the neck, a shirt over the rope, tied three times, stuffed into her mouth, and she`s hanging there nude.
Now, how did they come to make a decision in a matter of days that this was a suicide? This case cries out for more investigation. I can`t label it as a homicide, absolutely, but I am saying that to label it as a suicide absolutely is unacceptable.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: I get you. Bernard, let me bring you this conversation. I`ve been very sympathetic to these specific issues that raised by Cyril here tonight. In fact, I brought a rope expert in here, you know, a guy who is basically equivalent to a 16th century sailor, who could, you know, how would somebody do that, tie themselves up the way she did, and he could not imagine how it was even possible to do it on your own.
It was a rope tying, knot tying expert. So, there are also inconsistencies how the rope effected the rail, you know, when she fell allegedly, and you know, footprints on the -- there are all kinds of questions that were left unanswered. How do you make sense of all this?
BERNARD BRODY, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You know, I`m not a medical examiner and I don`t claim to be, but -- and I have all the respect in the world what the family wants to have happen here, and I completely understand them wanting to go to the media with this. One thing that I do have an issue with is the matter in which they`re doing it.
First of all, I`ve never met a medical examiner that didn`t want to know the truth, and with all due respect to Dr. Wecht, why can`t Dr. Wecht just go to San Diego, meet with Dr. Lucas who did the initial autopsy and reveal his findings to him, the expert, scientist.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Dr. Wecht, how about that? What do you think?
WECHT: Well, I do not know the medical examiner who did the autopsy. I`m sure he`s a board certified, competent forensics pathologist. I suggest, sir, with all due respect, it`s a bit naive to say that why did I not go down there and just sit down and talk. First of all, pathology, like any other field of medicine, is not an absolute science, which Dr. Drew can certainly appreciate.
And even though pathology is the most scientific of all the medical specialties, it is not an absolute science. And forensic pathologists can have serious disagreements. You want to talk about John F. Kennedy, Robert Kennedy, Mary Jo Kopechne. You name the case, Phil Specter, Anna Nicole Smith, you name the case.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Go ahead.
BRODY: I`m a criminal defense attorney. And even medical examiners sit down with me every single day. So, they`re not going to sit down with one of these leading experts in their field to talk about a case that`s getting national attention? I don`t buy that.
WECHT: Now you really have me puzzled. You`re a criminal defense attorney, and you`re suggesting that the expert that you retained should just go and sit down and talk with the pathologist who did the autopsy and everything will work out peaches and cream? I don`t understand.
I have never known a situation and say, why don`t you just go and talk with the pathologist who did the autopsy and I`m sure everything will work out. I`m very surprised, sir.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Gentlemen, let me get in the middle of this. I`m running out of time. Anne, where does the family go next? What do we do with this? I`ve been talking to you for quite awhile about this.
BREMNER: Yes.
PINSKY: This thing goes on and on and on. You know I`m sympathetic to the question marks that remain. Where do they go?
BREMNER: We`re so appreciative of the public support from you. And we`ve had support from all over the world that everyone wants justice. And I think this case cries out, like Dr. Wecht said, for justice and fore more answers.
PINSKY: And there really are some very peculiar things about this case. That`s why it lives on. And I, too, have been a big question mark over my head is why won`t they let those big, giant questions get answered. I don`t know, but thank you guys.
And when we come back, Rebecca`s outspoken sister is going to tell us why she went on TV to learn how her beloved sister died. That`s next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: Welcome back. Now, why did the family of Rebecca Zahau choose to have the results of their loved one`s autopsy revealed to them on television? Joining us now on the phone is Rebecca`s sister, Mary.
So, Mary, help us understand this. And again, you know that I have a lot of sympathy about the unanswered questions in this case, but what motivated you to do this on daytime television?
VOICE OF MARY ZAHAU, REBECCA ZAHAU`S SISTER: I think at this point, I don`t know if everybody knows or not, we are left without any choices other than go to the media with my sister`s case. We have begged the San Diego sheriff`s department to listen to us from the beginning. They contacted us in the totality of three, including the visit to our house to tell us that they concluded that as a suicide.
They ignore the things that we have told them about our sister, why this is not possible, why we want certain things to look into, and yet, they choose to ignore it. I mean, they made it pretty clear that we are less worthy of a fair investigation, that my sister was not worthy of a fair investigation.
PINSKY: What does that mean? First time I heard you say something like that. What do you mean by that?
ZAHAU: Oh, what I mean by that is to me, some of the questions, I mean, Sheriff Gore, even today announced that they have not come to us with any new findings. They haven`t shown us any new evidence. You know what my problem is? There were a lot of evidences that they could have looked into from the beginning that they chose not to.
What new evidence do they need when they cannot even give us an answer to old questions and cannot even give us answers to all things that they should have looked into?
PINSKY: Anne, I want to go off to you again. You know, I talked to Mary a couple of times, and I really now hear her frustration. She`s got quite a head of steam behind her. Anne, you`re no further along than you were before this daytime TV affair, are you? I mean, what do you do? What do you have to do? Where does this go? I feel your frustration.
BREMNER: We`re totally frustrated, and you can hear it in Mary`s voice. I mean, the only thing we can do is talk to the media. And like I said, you`ve been wonderful, Dr. Drew, is giving us a platform as well. What we need to do -- of course, we have the new evidence from Dr. Wecht --
PINSKY: But Anne, I want you to be really, really specific. I`ve got like 30 seconds with this, so please, let`s make it sure quick. But I mean, do you get a forensic psychologist that puts together a report? Is that what you`re going to do?
BREMNER: Yes, yes.
PINSKY: OK.
BREMNER: And we also are putting together a whole analysis that goes to the AG, and the fact of it that there`s been a request for review before doesn`t matter because that request said, you know what, we have confidence in the investigation. So, you don`t get a review there. We don`t have confidence in it. We want an independent investigation.
PINSKY: All right. Well, I hope you do get that because, again, there`s some aspects of this case that are really quite bizarre. I don`t think we`ve really learned anything more from the autopsy I`m sorry to say, but just the circumstances are very bizarre.
And I would like to have somebody really as expert in pulling those facts together and analyzing them and trying to understand what we`ve got here. Thanks to Anne. Thank you, Mary. We will stay with you on this.
A couple of quick words before we go now. Tonight, we heard from a man who, himself, earlier in the show, had violated a child in his own family. He spent five years in prison for it. Some of you would say not long enough. He doesn`t look a lot different than anybody else, but you can`t tell by looking at him that he was capable of such a thing, and that`s what I want to point out again tonight to people.
We want to believe that, somehow, dangerous people are all bad, are all evil, look a certain way, and in most cases, they just don`t. They look like the rest of us, and that is what`s frightening to us. So, why you and your children must be vigilant, especially people you know. You know, trust your instinct, hoping that things are OK is not enough. Trust your instincts. Be hypervigilant.
And if we learned nothing else from this case, don`t even take a beat before you report things. The authority organizations are there to help you. They`ll investigate these things. Thanks for watching. We`ll see you next time.
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