Return to Transcripts main page


Special Report: Ungodly Discipline

Aired November 25, 2011 - 20:00   ET


ANDERSON COOPER, HOST: Tonight's special report: "Ungodly Discipline."

For weeks we've been investing a deadly collision of faith and family in the hour ahead, you're going to meet some parents who believe that the bible commands them to spank their children, even very young children, toddlers. Spank them so hard that it hurts that they cause physical pain. They call it spiritual spanking and they believe it's God's will.

Lydia Schatz was just 7 years old then she was beaten to death in the name of God. She allegedly mispronounced a word during a home schooling session. That was her so-called sin.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We've heard the phrase death by 1,000 lashes. That's basically what this was.

COOPER: Lydia's parents pleaded guilty and were sent to prison. But Michael Pearl, the man whose teachings they follow, is still spreading his gospel through a popular Christian book he wrote with his wife "to train a child" reportedly more than a million copies have been sold.

The Pearl's wrote it as a blueprint for raising children they say the way the bible commands.

MICHAEL PEARL, AUTHOR, TO TRAIN UP A CHILD: It says that if you spare the rod, you hate your child. But if you love him, you chasten him timely.

COOPER: The Pearl's say they're not to blame for what the Schatz' did, but spare the rod, spoil the child is a message that many fundamentalist Christians and preachers embrace. You'll hear from some of them tonight. You'll also hear from a woman whose parents followed the Pearl's teaching when she was growing up. Her parents called it biblical chastisement. She calls it abuse.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is systemic form of brainwashing of these children.

COOPER: Our investigation also led us to a corner of Christian fundamentalism that operates almost entirely beyond the reach of authority. Fundamentalist Baptist homes for so-called troubled teens. They say they build character and helped wayward young Christians found their way back to God. But some former residents describe down this houses of horror.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When they just bodily man handled me to the floor, hand capped. He hit me with a board as hard as he could. And I was shocked. I had been paddled my whole life. I've never been hit like that.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have nightmares about it all the time. Like very vivid dreams like I'm trapped inside this house again and I can't get out.

COOPER: Accusations of abuse both physical and emotional all inflicted in the name of God. You'll hear their stories ahead.

You will also hear from the pastor who runs the home.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER MALE: We've had a lot of people complain that there's abuse at your house. Can you give us a comment about that?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE PASTOR: Well, I would rather not.

COOPER: He wasn't happy to see us. He did answer some of our questions. That's ahead.

We begin with a case that's put Michael and Debbie Pearl's popular Christian parenting book on the defensive. It's a book familiar to many fundamentalist Christians who rely on their teachings to help raise their kids. Until now it didn't get much attention outside those circles but, that's changing now that a little girl has died. Here's part one of the Gary Tuchman's report.


GARY TUCHMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The small town of paradise, California, where these children lived with their parents in a fundamentalist Christian home for the nine children life in paradise was anything but.

We covered up eight of their faces because they are the survivors. Survivors of a violent form of discipline practiced by their parents, Kevin and Elizabeth Schatz. The one face not covered is their 7-year-old adopted daughter Lydia. She was killed by her parents.

Mike Ramsey is the district attorney of Butte County in northern California.

MIKE RAMSEY, DISTRICT ATTORNEY, BUTTE COUNTY NORTHERN CALIFORNIA: We've heard of the phrase death by 1,000 lashes. That's basically what this was.

TUCHMAN: This is where the family used to live. The children's sand box is still here so is their slide. And their tree house. But the surviving children are now in foster homes and the parents are in prison. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Violated section 273-a.

TUCHMAN: They pleaded guilty to killing Lydia and seriously injuring her 11-year-old sister, Zariah, who almost died.

Authorities say Kevin and Elizabeth Schatz beat their children regularly because they believe God wanted them to. The district attorney said the shots believed --

RAMSEY: To spare the rod will spoil the child. And if you can train your horse and you can train your dog, you can train your children.

TUCHMAN: 7-year-old Lydia suffered terribly supposedly in the name of God. But authorities say this was torture and murder by parents who were supposed to love and cherish their child.

Inside this house they found important evidence the so-called biblical rods the shots had inside. What they were, were 15 inch long plumbing supply tubes used to beat the children and also important, a book was found inside.

A book that appeared to light the fuse to the deadly brutality. The book is called "to train up a child." Its author is this man on the tractor Michael Pearl and his wife, Debbie. They consider themselves observant Christians who run an organization called "No Greater Joy Ministries" from their Tennessee farm.

MICHAEL PEARL: Well, I'm a preacher, a minister of the gospel.

TUCHMAN: Their book and others they've written stacked in a warehouse on their farm. All of them guided they say, by the teachings in the bible.

MICHAEL PEARL: And it says that if you spare the rod you hate your child. But if you love him, you chasten him timely.

TUCHMAN: A rod according to the Pearl's manual in training children can be anything from a tree switch to spatula. In the book, they describe a rod as magic wand. "God would not have commanded parents to use the rod if it were not good for the child." The Pearls say parents should stay in control and not act in extreme. But they declare any spanking to effectively reinforce instruction must cause pain.

Let's say a 7-year-old slugs his sister.

MICHAEL PEARL: He would get a -- a 7-year-old would get a ten or 15 licks then it would be a formal thing. In other words, you maintain your patient air. You explain to him what he's cone is violent and that's not acceptable in society and it's not acceptable in his home. I would take him into his bedroom and tell him I'm going to give him 15 licks.

TUCHMAN: With what? MICHAEL PEARL: Probably a belt. A kid that big, a boy I'd probably use a belt. It would be handy. I might use a wooden spoon or a piece of like plumbing supply line, a quarter inch in diameter, flexible enough to roll up.

TUCHMAN: So, what I'm saying here, why not just use your hand instead of all these materials?

MICHAEL PEARL: Look here. Let me show you something. Does that hurt?

TUCHMAN: Doesn't feel good.

MICHAEL PEARL: But look, what has done to your whole body? You don't use your hand on somebody. That's a karate chop.

TUCHMAN: But you're telling that when you're use this material that it can't cause permanent marks.


MICHAEL PEARL: My children never had marks left on them.

TUCHMAN: But look at the body of Zariah. The daughter who was seriously injured by her parents. These are just some of her wound. Other wounds and bruises on her body and on the body of her sister Lydia who died are far too graphic for us to show.

Lydia was so severely beaten she died of a condition usually associated with earthquakes and bombings.

What do you think influenced the Schatz' to beat, terrorize and torment the children?

RAMSEY: The book by Mister Pearl. There's no doubt about that.

TUCHMAN: Lydia was beaten for seven continuous hours interrupted by short prayer breaks on the day she died. The sound of the police siren was recorded by a paradise police officer racing to the house. When he arrived he tried to save Lydia with CPR, both the parents present.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE OFFICER: She's swallowed a lot of vomit.

KEVIN SCHATZ, FATHER CONVICTED IN KILLING HIS DAUGHTER: Couldn't figure out what was going on. She was like, really tired and her eyes, her vision was blurry.


TUCHMAN: And listen later in the day to the seriously injured, Zariah.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE OFFICER: Where do you get spanked? Just on the arms and your back?

ZARIAH SCHATZ, 11 YEARS OLD, SISTER OF LYDIA: On my bottom and on my back last night, too. Underneath my feet.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE OFFICER: Underneath your feet? Zariah, I'd like to take you to the hospital, OK.

ZARIAH SCHATZ: I probably need to bring a pot because I'm might throw up again.

TUCHMAN: At the sentencing hearing, 11-year-old who is still recovering from her serious injuries had the courage to address her parents in open court about her deceased sister. She said why did you adopt her? To kill her? It's a heartbreaking story.

Kevin pleaded guilty to murder and torture and will be in jail for at least 22 years, and Elizabeth for at least 12.

Do you think if the Schatz did not read the pearl's book, there'd be a good chance that Lydia would still be alive?

RAMSEY: I would think that there would be.

MICHAEL PEARL: We reviewed to case to see if there was going to be any blame pointed at us a. So we looked into it.


COOPER: When we come back, has the death of little Lydia Schatz caused the Pearl's to rethink any of their parenting advice? Gary gets a lesson in language.


MICHAEL PEARL: No, I don't use the term hitting.

TUCHMAN: What's the word?


TUCHMAN: As there difference?

MICHAEL PEARL: Absolutely.


COOPER: He will explain that ahead.

Also ahead, Gary investigates some really disturbing allegations of harsh abuse and even brainwashing at a Fundamentalist Baptist Home for so-called troubled teens.

This Special Report "Ungodly Discipline" continues in a moment.


COOPER: We started working on tonight's Special Report "Ungodly Discipline" after hearing about a little girl in California who was beaten to death by her parents. That's the little girl there. That in itself is a horrifying story. But the fact that her parents allegedly believed God wanted them to beat their daughter made the story everybody more disturbing.

Kevin and Elizabeth Schatz are now serving prison sentences. They kept a controversial parenting book in their home. A book that says God wants parents to spank their children with rods and switches even rubber tubing. And that the spanking should be hard enough to cause physical pain.

The couple who wrote the book says they're not to blame for what the Schatz' did. The district attorney sees it differently.

Once again, here's Gary Tuchman.


TUCHMAN: Michael Pearl is a competitive knife and tomahawk thrower. He never misses the target. But it's just a hobby. His life's work is preaching. He targets what some might call extreme discipline of children.

MICHAEL PEARL: I've never met another met any well-trained emotionally secure, happy, creative children that weren't spanked.

TUCHMAN: Pearl is a minister of the gospel, a devout Christian. He and his wife are best-selling authors who have written many religiously themed books. But their most popular and most controversial is a book called "To Train Up a Child." in which they write about the need to inflict physical pain.

MICHAEL PEARL: I don't use the term hitting.

TUCHMAN: What's the word?


TUCHMAN: Is there a difference?

MICHAEL PEARL: Absolutely. A hand is hitting. A little switch is spanking. A wooden spoon or a spatula, a rubber spatula, that's spanking.

TUCHMAN: In the book the Pearl's who live in rural Tennessee declare "the rod is a gift from God. Use it as the hand of god to train your children." They say any spanking to effectively reinforce instruction must cause pain.

This couple believed in the Pearl's. Kevin and Elizabeth Schatz, parents of nine children read their book. As a matter of fact, the book was found in their house and put in an evidence bag after the California couple pummeled one of their daughters for hours. 7-year- old Lydia Schatz who had been adopted by' Nigeria died after suffering horrific injuries all over her body.

Mike Ramsey is the district attorney in Butte County California.

RAMSEY: As we're talking about is and we charged torture. Torture over hours.

TUCHMAN: This past spring, the Schatz' pleaded guilty to the killing of their daughter Lydia and seriously injuring her older sister, Zariah. These are the photos of the sister's wounds. The marks left by the rods. Many images too crucial to show. The Schatz' said they regularly beat their other children. We're covering the faces of the survivors to protect their privacy.

RAMSEY: The book was there and underlined in various areas.

TUCHMAN: So, there's no question in your mind that this book by the Pearl's influenced the Schatz' to beat, brutalize and terrorize the children?

RAMSEY: None at all.

TUCHMAN: No question?

RAMSEY: No question.

TUCHMAN: But the Pearl's feel differently saying the book rejects parents losing control and acting out of anger.

So, you're not accepting any blame?

MICHAEL PEARL: Absolutely not.

TUCHMAN: How scared are you that there would be blame pointed at you?

MICHAEL PEARL: I don't think we are scared at all. There's never been a suggestion to anyone that someone's lost control because of what they read in our book.

TUCHMAN: The district attorney clearly disagrees and puts blame on the Pearl's for the tragedy. But he acknowledges that's as far as he can go.

Was there any ever any consideration that exploring legal charges against the Pearl's?

RAMSEY: Not really because they have their first amendment right to say awful things.

TUCHMAN: The Pearl's say they feel badly for the girl who died. But they're unapologetic. They're not shy in using props and humor.

MICHAEL PEARL: I'm going to spank the CNN man --

TUCHMAN: To show how they believe God wants parents to spank.

MICHAEL PEARL: Rubbing the spaghetti all over your head. You shouldn't have done that at 7 years of age. OK?

TUCHMAN: That hurts and I'm 50.

MICHAEL PEARL: OK. Did I leave any marks on you?

TUCHMAN: No, but would you hit a 5-year-old like that?


TUCHMAN: The Pearl's say you can never be too young for some physical pain. For example, when a baby bites during breastfeeding.

DEBBIE PEARL: I would gently pull their hair, very gently. So, it's enough to make them let go.

TUCHMAN: The spankings with various objects say the Pearl's are actually done out of love.

The Pearl's appear to be staying prolific with their writings and preachings. They say they are simultaneously writing four new books. There is no indication that any controversy slows them down.

And why should it, say the Pearl's? They say it worked for their children and most importantly this is what God wants.

MICHAEL PEARL: We don't punish our children. But we sometimes need to get their attention.

TUCHMAN: The eight surviving Schatz' children are now all in foster homes. They and their sister Lydia certainly got our attention.

Gary Tuchman, CNN, Paradise, California.


COOPER: Harsh discipline in the name of God. It's not just happening inside private homes like the Schatz' and the Pearl's. Just ahead, what we uncovered about a Fundamentalist Baptist Home for so- called troubled teens. A facility that operates outside the over side of regulators because of its religious affiliation.

Also ahead a woman whose childhood was filled with beatings. She says, all in the name of God. The father was a pastor.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: These pastors are advocating a very systematic form of punishment that outside of their community would be refer to as abuse. Inside the community, it's called spiritual spanking.



COOPER: The case of Lydia Schatz, a 7-year-old girl beaten to death by her paints raises the question whether some parents are using the bible to justify their own bad parenting or misinterpreting things. But before the break, you heard from Michael Pearl, a Christian minister and author of the popular book "to train up a child." His book tells parents that God wants them to spank their children with rods and switches, and spank them hard enough to cause pain.

Now, many fundamentalist preachers agree with Minister Pearl. One example is Roger Voegtlin, leader of the Baptist Church in Indiana. Here's part of an audio recording of a recent sermon he gave.


DOCTOR ROGER VOEGTLIN, PASTOR, FAIRHAVEN BAPTIST CHURCH: This evening I'd like to preach on spanking according to the bible. Now, this is not a new subject here at Fairhaven Baptist Church -


COOPER: He then talked about the proper way, in his opinion, to administer discipline.


VOEGTLIN: What is a rod? I don't think it's a ball bat, I don't think its club or whatever the parent can grab at the moment. The rod in scriptures is never carefully defined, but it's obviously some kind of a stitch or switch and it's designed to give a sharp, unpleasant pain. If that isn't the result of your spanking, then you're failing. A sharp, unpleasant pain!


COOPER: Well, Fairhaven is part of the network of independent Fundamentalist Baptist Churches. Jocelyn Zichterman grew up in the independent Fundamentalist Baptist Church. I spoke to her earlier.


COOPER: What was your upbringing like? You underwent what I think was called biblical chastisement, what did that actually mean?

JOCELYN ZICHTERMAN, BEATING VICTIM: Yes, that's right. There are large network of churches as you mentioned known as the Independent Fundamentalist Baptist, and we use the acronym IFB as a very simplistic way to define the group.

But the IFB believes in something called "breaking the will of a child." So, my father was an IFB pastor, he currently is an IFB pastor. And he practiced this form of discipline that Michael Pearl is advocating in his book, you know, "To Train Up A Child." And that could basically mean that our spanking sessions, and I refer to it as beating sessions could last anywhere from 15 minutes to several hours at a time because basically these pastors believe that a child needs to have no will of their own. So, they will continue to administer discipline until a child is completely docile in a way that they show no negative emotion. That's the goal in the discipline session. COOPER: But all these pastors say look, we're not calling for abuse of a child. We are not calling for, you know, this can be misused by bad parents who are out there who act out in anger and are irresponsible. But that's not what they're calling for.

ZICHTERMAN: Michael Pearl said that he does not advocate anyone spanking a child in anger or being out of control. And that's what's really difficult to explain to the outside of the IFB. Because the IFB pastors are not advocating losing control and beating the child to death.

These pastors are advocating a very systemic form of punishment that outside of their community would be referred to as abuse. Inside the community it's called spiritual spanking. It's a matter of semantics. They would say you shouldn't lose your temper. You shouldn't out of control. And when we hear of parents who kill children in our country, we think of parents who lost control completely and it ended in the death of a child.

But these patients are making a conscious decision to beat a child for several hours at a time because it's something that's embedded within their belief system in the IFB.

COOPER: You run a Web site called where you try to bring together people who'd say that they were victims of abuse at the hands of their parents who believe they were following biblical rulings. But I mean, plenty of parents believe in some form of corporal punishment.

ZICHTERMAN: Yes, that's right. When you think of corporal punishment in our country, I think the most people would say or you know, I think majority of people at this point in time would say, you know, a time or two, I swatted my 2 or 3-year-old on the butt, you know, when they were running out into the street. That's not what's being promoted within this group.

This is systemic form of brainwashing of these children to again to break them completely of a will. We were to be completely submissive. So, here's another way I would explain it. When you imagine a 3 or 4-year-old being spanked, the parent is laying the child down. They are spanking them and you know if you're a 3-year- old you're going to squirm during a spanking session like that. And that squirm is a revelation to them that the child is exerting their will and that will needs to be broken so the parents continue to spank.

So, in the Lydia case I believe that they interpreted any kind of bodily movement of Lydia's as a willful spirit that they needed to break so that's why the session lasted as long as we've heard of seven hours.

COOPER: I guess there's clearly abuse and in the Lydia Schatz case, I don't think anybody in the church would say that that was acceptable. And they were all said that that is horrific. It seems like -- I mean is it fair to be, you know, casting aspersions against an entire, you know, church organization as opposed to just bad individuals who clearly abuse a child?

ZICHTERMAN: Well, I think that that's where the history of the IFB has come into light now. "ABC 20/20" did a documentary on April 8th called "Shatter Faith" in which they took a whole year to do investigative journalistic piece on this culture. And the findings were yes; this is what's being taught from the hope of these IFB pastors.

COOPER: I should point out we called the church for a response to talk to the pastor and did not get a response, but we look forward to continuing that discussion.

Jocelyn, I appreciate your time tonight. Thank you very much.

ZICHTERMAN: Sure. Thank you.


COOPER: We reached out a number of times to Roger Voegtlin to request an interview or statement. He declined so did the Fairhaven Baptist Church. Our invitation is still open.

Just ahead in our Special Report, "Ungodly Discipline," what's really going on inside this Fundamentalist Baptist Home for so-called troubled teens? Disturbing allegations from former residents are making and the special protection law gives religious group home.

Gary Tuchman investigates. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TUCHMAN: We have a lot of people complain about the abuse physically (inaudible) at your house. Can you give us a comment about that?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, I would rather not.



TUCHMAN: Good evening, everybody. I'm Gary Tuchman. Three American college students studying in Egypt are now free. The men were arrested Monday after being accused of throwing Molotov cocktails during the unrest that has taken place in Egypt since last week. They have left the police station in Cairo and are planning on boarding three separate commercial flights back to the U.S.

Black Friday turned ugly today. At a Wal-Mart in North Carolina off duty police officers used pepper spray to keep anxious shoppers at bay before the start of an electronics sale.

And at another Wal-Mart outside of Los Angeles a shopper used pepper spray on another shoppers to ensure she got her hands on an Xbox video game console. Unfortunately, it worked but not before harming others around her. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My throat was burning. I saw people around me got it really bad. I tried to get away from it as quickly as possible because I don't think those were worth it.


TUCHMAN: Police are reviewing the security tapes to try to track down the woman.

As Black Friday takes a close, it's time to look ahead to Cyber Monday. Analysts are expecting a record $1.2 billion in sales on one of the internet's biggest shopping days of the year.

According to, eight out of 10 online retailers will be offering special promotions. Stocks falling in a shortened trading session today. The Dow losing 26 points that was the worst Thanksgiving week for stocks since 1932, 79 years.

Standard and Poor's taking action downgrading Belgium's credit rating. The country's gone 530 days without the coalition government. More news later. Stay tuned to CNN.


ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Well, there's a network of religious affiliated reform schools that cater to fundamentalist Baptists churches. These group homes for so-called troubled teens can be traced back to Texas radio evangelist, Lester Roloff who founded the Rebekah Home for Girls in 1967. He used girls singing group called the "Honeybee Quartet" to promote the home.

Despite its marketing pitch, Roloff's home for girls faced allegations of abuse. And now decades later another home that grew out of the same tradition is facing similar allegations. Once again, here's Gary Tuchman.


GARY TUCHMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): I'm about to meet a man who I know doesn't want to talk me. We know that because Don Williams and his father, Ron, had already told us in an e- mail they would not comment about abuse that has allegedly happened for many years on the secluded property in the northern Indiana Town of Wynonna Lake.

The Hepzhibah House is a self-described fundamentalist Baptist boarding school and church for adolescent girls. The allegations are so disturbing. We felt we needed a face-to-face meeting with the father or the son in charge. We found the son in a parking lot.

(on camera): We've had a lot of people complained they've been physically, emotionally, mentality abused at your house. Can you give us a comment about that?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, I would rather not.

TUCHMAN: Our conversation did not end there. But first let us introduce you to Susan Grotte who is now, 45 but spent two and a half years there starting when she was 15.

SUSAN GROTTE, FORMER HEPZHIBAH HOUSE STUDENT: It was going to be gardening and crafts and singing and just a chance to heal.

TUCHMAN: That's what your parents thought this school was going to be?

GROTTE: That's right.

TUCHMAN: Was it in any way correct?

GROTTE: No, no. I knew that the minute the door shut behind me.

TUCHMAN (voice-over): On her first day in this house, which was the facility used back then, Susan said she was accused of having a bad attitude while cleaning the ceiling. So two staff women grabbed her and Don William's father administered what she said was known as godly discipline.

GROTTE: This bodily man-handled me to the floor, and he hit me with the board as hard as he could. He's a very big man. I was shocked. I had been paddled my whole life and never been hit like that.

TUCHMAN: Me'chelle Dowling is 20 years old. She just got out of the Hephzibah House a few years ago. Her parents thought the strict religious curriculum would make her a better Baptist.

ME'CHELLE DOWLING, FORMER HEPHZIBAH HOUSE STUDENT: They told me that, you know, it would be good for me and I'd make good life changing decisions.

TUCHMAN: Me'Chelle was only 12 and brand new in the house when she says two staff women told her to take off her clothes and forced her into a closet where a man would give what Hephzibah House claims is a medical examination.

DOWLING: They held both my legs and both my arms down and let him do this to me. Stuck a speculum inside of me, and I was scared. I was screaming. I didn't want him to touch me. There was nothing I could do.

TUCHMAN: Both women talk about being forced to eat a lot of food, sometimes not being given any food, being forced to drink a lot of water. Susan says 28 girls shared three bedrooms on the upper floor of this house. There was one toilet. But --

GROTTE: If I stood up to go to the bathroom, no, you can only go to the bathroom when you're told.

TUCHMAN (on camera): These are big girls you were with?

GROTTE: Right.

TUCHMAN: What would happen if you went to the bathroom without asking?

GROTTE: You would be paddled, yes.

DOWLING: I would wet the bed every single night I was there. They made a spectacle of you like you were this horrible person for doing that. I ended up having to wear pull-ups every night. Would watch me put it on every night, and they'd make me show it to them when I would take it off in the morning.

TUCHMAN: It's been open a long time, lots of people have complained about getting beaten, emotionally tormented, and mentally tormented in the name of religion. And as a lot of us were very religious, we don't believe in hitting people, tormented them and having to wear diapers and making them drink and making them eat things they don't want to. I want to know why you do that?

DONALD WILLIAMS, HEPHZIBAH HOUSE: I prefer not to decline, sir.

TUCHMAN: But why can't you comment if you believe in what you do? This is your chance to tell viewers.

WILLIAMS: I understand that, but I prefer not to.

TUCHMAN: If you could tell me why?

WILLIAMS: I'm respectfully declining.

TUCHMAN: Don Williams is also the pastor at the church on the Hephzibah House grounds. A former church-goer gave CNN a CD sold by the church in which Williams is apparently preaching his views about who is to blame when a male whistles at a female.

WILLIAMS: If you girls are walking down the sidewalk and some fellows drive by and they whistle, you better stop and think about that. What drew that whistle? Was it the way I was walking or maybe the way I was dressed or whatever? Did I do something to defraud those men?

TUCHMAN: Hephzibah's web site features pictures of girls who have attended and claims there are no spankings or any out of the ordinary punishments. This facility has been around for about four decades. It seems to be a thriving enterprise.

As you can see the people in charge don't particularly want to answer my questions. We're not alone. They don't really answer government either.

In Indiana group homes operated by churches and religious ministries are exempt from licensure. So nobody in the government even knows what's going on behind the closed doors. The women say their parents also had no idea what was going on there.

(on camera): In the 15 months that you were in this house, how many times did you leave the grounds to go somewhere else?




TUCHMAN: The Indiana governor's office says there's nothing it can do. The attorney general's office says it doesn't have jurisdiction and the same thing with the Indiana Department of Education.

(on camera): Notably though the Indiana Department of Child Services said it could investigate providing there was a current complaint and not from someone who already walked out of door.

We talked to a dozen women who say they were victimized at Hephzibah House, and they said they could never make any private phone calls or send uncensored letters while on the inside.

(voice-over): Hephzibah House is not the only facility of its kind. Across the country, victim advocates say there are an unknown, but large number of similar programs.

DOWLING: I have nightmares of it all the time. Like very vivid dreams like I'm trapped inside this house again and can't get out. That's like the only thing I want is to run out a door, and for some reason I can't.

GROTTE: I think I fantasize about suicide those first years out.

TUCHMAN: We wanted to give Williams one last chance to answer the allegations.

(on camera): Is it true or is it not -- this is a yes or no question?

WILLIAMS: It's not true.

TUCHMAN: So they're lying to us?

WILLIAMS: I'm -- see, that's where you're trying to get me backed into a corner. It's their word against mine.

TUCHMAN (voice-over): We were not permitted to take video on Hephzibah House property, but we did walk up the front steps and ring the bell. We saw a girl hustle back inside the home. We saw girls through the windows, but nobody would answer the door.


COOPER: Gary joins us now. Why would the school use food and water as discipline?

TUCHMAN: Authorities at these institutions, they have a laser- like focus on discipline. They feel it's very important to make the children who attend these schools submissive and then they're disciplined.

COOPER: They're saying these are problem kids coming there, and you can't deal with them necessarily through regular means?

TUCHMAN: I mean, not all these kids are problem kids. A lot of parents are problem parents. They don't want to take care of kids as symptoms of this institution. That's not exactly true.

COOPER: Is Indiana really powerless to do an investigation of the school?

TUCHMAN: No. I mean, if the governor -- this particular school has been open for 40 years. If any of the governors over the last 40 years wanted to make this a cause or attorney general, they could lobby the legislature. There seems to be no incentive to do anything about it.

COOPER: And if the federal government, I mean, is there any rule of the federal government getting involved?

TUCHMAN: Yes, there is. Three years ago a bill went to Congress that would put more oversight over private boarding schools to help prevent child abuse. It passed the House, but it died in a Senate committee and never came back.

COOPER: Fascinating report. Gary, thanks.

After Gary talked to Don Williams, Hephzibah House reached out and offered to put us in touch with another former student who was willing to talk about her time in the facility.

Her name is Lucinda Pennington. Her family sent her to the school when she was 15. She stayed for three years. She joins me now.

Thanks for being with us, Lucinda. You went to this house in 1988 when you were 15. You say you liked it there. Why?

LUCINDA PENNINGTON, FORMER HEPHZIBAH HOUSE STUDENT: I did. I felt safe and secure there. It was a place for me to be able to get back on track.

COOPER: You came from an abusive family situation, and they were very supportive at Hephzibah House?

PENNINGTON: Yes, very supportive. They helped me get out of the situation that I was in and helped me in taking care of what needed to be taken care of.

COOPER: Were you ever beaten at Hephzibah House?

PENNINGTON: No, I was never beaten. I did receive a spanking, but never beaten.

COOPER: What sort of a spanking did you receive? PENNINGTON: I had cheated on a test, and even though it had been several days, they had to wait and get contact with my parents first before they could spank me.

They took me upstairs, explained to me how it was done. I had to lay down on the floor. They held my hands and my feet and put a chair across my back. I don't remember anything sitting on it. Granted, this was 23 years ago. I got three swats, and I was let up.

COOPER: Swats with what?

PENNINGTON: I think it was just a regular paddle. Then I was let up and sat on the couch, and we prayed and talked about, you know, I shouldn't be cheating. Cheating is lying and then I -- within the three years I only received two spankings. So it wasn't like, you know, I got them all the time or anything like that.

COOPER: We've heard from other girls who were there who obviously describe what they call -- refer to as abusive situations. They refer to like having to drink a lot of water and the not being allowed to go to the bathroom, being made to wear diapers. Did you see that? Did that happen to you? Why would that happen?

PENNINGTON: No. In the three years that I was there, there was only one girl that was made to wear a diaper. The situation was she had just gotten there. Hadn't been there maybe a day, and these girls were not angels that arrived there.

This girl was determined that nobody was going to tell her what to do, when to go to the bathroom. Because we did things on a timetable, on a schedule, especially during school hours, we would have breaks and recess.

She said, you're not going to tell me when to go to the bathroom. She refused to use the bathroom. A few minutes later she asked to use the bathroom. They said no, you had the opportunity to use the bathroom.

When they told her that she needs to go when all the groups went, she said well I'm going to stand here and pee in my pants. They said that's fine. If you do the consequence is because you won't go to the bathroom when you're supposed to, you'll wear a diaper for a day.

She said I don't care. She did it out of rebellion and spite. When they followed through with what they told her what would happen, it only took one day that she actually wore the diaper because the next day she did what she was supposed to.

COOPER: Why do you think so many girls are giving strikingly similar accounts of being abused, if that's not what really happened? Do you think they're lying?

PENNINGTON: I think for them some of the things were traumatic for them because they had never been in a situation where they had been told what to do. So for them to be told when to eat, when to sleep, you know, not have the freedom to do as they pleased. Yes, they think they were abused, I guess you could say. Do I agree with that? No. I came from a situation where I knew the difference between a spanking and beating. If someone's never been spanked, then, yes, somebody may say I was beat.

COOPER: Lucinda Pennington, I appreciate you being on and giving your perspective. Thank you so much.

PENNINGTON: All right.

COOPER: Still ahead, when faith and law collide. If your religion tells you that God demands you spank your child, who is to tell you otherwise? Under the law where is that line between spanking and abuse? We'll be right back.


COOPER: Today, we've shown you how faith and family sometimes collide. Within their own homes, parents set the latitude in how they discipline kids. but exactly how much latitude, when does it legally become abuse, and what about outside the family?

Before the break, we showed you Gary Tuchman's report on faith- based homes for so-called troubled teens that have long faced allegations of abuse, but because of their religious affiliation, they have a lot of freedom from oversight.

Joining me now is Bruce Feiler, the author of "Walking the Bible" and "Generation Freedom." Also joining is me senior legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin.

Bruce, I think the idea of corporal punishment for kids is probably a lot more common among Evangelical Christians than a lot of people realize?

BRUCE FEILER, AUTHOR, "WALKING THE BIBLE": Evangelical Christians are about say 15 percent of the country right now. I'm actually in Georgia right now, and I spent last weekend at a Christian marriage seminar in Nashville where 1,000 people spent six and a half hours inside a church on a Saturday afternoon listening to the biblical point of view on marriage, on family, on parenting, on sex.

What was striking to me about this conference is for many people in this country, many parents who are anxious about how to discipline their children, what's too much, what's not enough, they turn to what?

They turn to science. They turn to studies and therapy, things like this. For a lot of people in this country, particularly Evangelical biblical based Protestants, they turn to the bible. On this matter the bible is not particularly vague.

Several times in proverbs as we've been hearing all hour, it says very clearly if you spare the rod, you hate your children. If you want to discipline your children, you would be aggressive. So I think for these people there is comfort in the bible and, of course, what we know in America is sometimes the people that put their faith in the bible come in conflict with people that put their faith in science or, of course, the law.

COOPER: And of course, you know, how far does the discipline go and how do you define it? Gary Tuchman detailed alleged abuses, girls denied going to the bathrooms for hours and hours, force-fed and starved, abusive-sounding stuff. If it's true, how can they be justified?

FEILER: Well, I think it's hard to justify based on religion. Let's put it that way. Remember, these are extreme people who are cutting themselves off taking an extreme view of religion. For most people who do support corporal punishment and as Jeff knows far better than I, almost half the states in the country it's still legal at this point in time in American history.

Most of the people like focus on the family, which is a very conservative Evangelical group they say do it rarely, do it judiciously and do it gently. Even the people that support it go nowhere near these extreme cases we've heard in your reporting tonight.

There is a difference between what is occasional discipline of some kind and this clear open crossing the line into abuse and in some cases murder.

COOPER: Jeff, it's an interesting legal issue because there are folks that say this is part of my religious relief. This is an extension of what I've read in the bible. This is my interpretation of it. Where does the law stand on, you know, hitting your child or hitting a student in a school?

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Unfortunately, the law is very easy at the extremes. No one is going to get arrested for a spanking. If God tells you to rob a bank, you can't rob a bank.

But when you get to these -- the corporal punishment that is more than a spanking but less than a broken arm, the police struggle with these cases and the laws vary by state.

Most of the time the police don't get involved in these, even though -- the sad truth is most victims of murder, children who are victims of murder are children that are killed by their family members.

COOPER: Bruce, you make the point that the bible mentions a lot of things that aren't accepted anymore?

FEILER: Well, look, in the 19th Century, I wrote about this in the book I wrote about the influence of the bible in American history few years ago called "America's Prophet," the bible openly supports slavery, and many people in the south used a biblical defense saying don't trust me if Abraham had slaves, Moses had slaves and Jesus did nothing to stop slavery.

On the matters of family, the bible is not a parenting textbook. It's not the Dr. Spock of the ancient world, and these attempts to take biblical passages and apply them are very dangerous. Most mainstream Protestant group, the Methodist Church, for example, a few years ago have openly rejected this idea. My personal opinion about this is if you're going to argue with people who are using the bible as a defense, you can't use the law in a lot of ways.

You can't use mainstream society or science don't reject this. You're almost better off making a biblical argument, which is to say this is a very fringe idea in the bible. It's mentioned a few days in the book of proverbs, which is vague, poetic language. The larger theme of the bible, the first thing God says is have children and multiply.

Many people have argued against this from the biblical point of view has said this is against the idea of the bible. It's against specifically the teaching of Jesus, which is to be sensitive to those vulnerable in society and who is more vulnerable than children?

So the way to argue in my view it's not the law. It's to say this is against the main theme of the bible.

TOOBIN: And let's be clear. There is no such thing in an American courtroom as a biblical defense. You can make persuade a police officer not to arrest you, but once you're in a courtroom, no judge is going to say, well, it's OK if you bible says it's OK.

COOPER: But as Gary pointed out in his report, it seems like there's very little regulation or oversight of homes or schools in Indiana.

TOOBIN: No, very little. Again, it varies by states. Private schools in general are outside the supervision of the state. That's why you have a private school as opposed to a public school, but they still have to maintain a certain minimum standards.

You still have to have sprinklers for fire safety. You still have to have a certain number of hours a week of instruction if you're a private or parochial school.

How many those rules are enforced varies a lot, and a lot of times religiously oriented schools have a lot of political power. They use that power to keep government supervision to a minimum.

COOPER: Interesting. Jeff Toobin, appreciate it. Bruce Feiler, always good to talk to you. Bruce, thanks.

FEILER: My pleasure.

COOPER: That's it for our special report "Ungodly Discipline." Thanks for joining us.