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Dr. Drew
Scandal Rips through Syracuse University; Reactions to Kim Kardashian`s Punching her Husband; Murray Gets Max For "Medicine Madness"
Aired November 29, 2011 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: Here we go.
Conrad Murray going to jail. No shock there. But what I have to say about the sentence might surprise you. His attorney is here to discuss it with me.
Then, her husband has been fired amid child sex abuse allegations. What does the wife of a former Syracuse basketball coach saying tonight?
And, it was the punch scene seen across America. Is that really what you want your kids watching and learning from?
Let`s get started.
Dr. Conrad Murray sentenced to four years in prison today. I`m a little - little disturbed about what I heard from the judge today. I understand he is supposed to be applying the law from the bench. I`m not sure I want to hear a full sermon from the bench. But we will talk about that later in the show, and I will be here with Murray`s defense attorney.
Right now, I want to get to the news and what`s - other big news tonight. We have some surprising Syracuse updates. Who knew what, when? Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY (voice-over): Tonight, a child sex abuse scandal rips through another university.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Syracuse University has now fired long time assistant basketball coach Bernie Fine.
PINSKY (on camera): After three men come forward saying he abused them as boys.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Secretly recorded phone conversations between one of the coach`s accusers and the coach`s wife.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Bernie Fine`s wife Laurie seems to show that Laurie Fine knew about the molestation.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Then you have the notion that she also engaged later on, the kid wasn`t screwed up enough, and she`s engaging in sexual activity with him.
PINSKY (voice-over): Laurie Fine`s nephew says she believes the voice is hers, but that the tape was doctored.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Bobby Davis, a former S.U. ball boy told ESPN the abuse started a year earlier when he was 12 and continued for more than a decade.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: And Bernie Fine`s wife speaks out, but doesn`t say much. We`re still wondering what the bizarre audio tape is all about and why is her nephew speaking for her, what could they possibly have done to it to make we`ve all heard (ph)?
Plus, cops say a former Syracuse - listen to this. A former Syracuse Police Chief knew Coach Bernie Fine was allegedly touching the little boy seen with him in this photo in 2002 and did nothing. They say it`s because the statute of limitation had expired. The Police Chief, now listen to this, too, happened to play basketball for Syracuse in the `70s.
Straight to my guest, Darlene Ellison, she is the former wife of a convicted pedophile; Attorney Mark Eiglarsh is here with us; and HLN host Mike Galanos is in Syracuse.
Mike, can you fill us in on the latest?
MIKE GALANOS, HLN HOST: Well, first off, Drew, I want to pick up where you and I left off yesterday. And that is we are waiting for Laurie Fine to issue some statements. Well, that didn`t happen. It makes you wonder, someone probably said you better know what you`re going to say before you come out with anything.
Matt Govendo, her nephew, was saying the tape was spliced, creatively edited. You know, Bobby Davis, the accuser, who made this tape, he basically says I wouldn`t even know how to do that.
And, Drew, you and I mentioned that, it was like that would be one heck of an edit job if you listened to that tape in full. There`s no stop and go. It does not at all sound like it`s edited. It flows very smoothly.
So, again, that`s one huge piece of news. No statement from Bernie Fine`s wife today.
PINSKY: So we got that tape of Bernie Fine`s wife chatting with alleged victim, Bobby Davis. She`s talking so calmly about her husband abusing him. Listen to this from ESPN.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
LAURIE FINE, BERNIE FINE`S WIFE (via telephone): I know everything that went on, you know, I know everything that went on with him. Bernie has issues, maybe that he is not aware of, but he has issues. And you trusted somebody you shouldn`t have trusted.
BOBBY DAVIS, ACCUSES BERNIE FINE OF ABUSING HIM (via telephone): Yes.
FINE: Bernie is also in denial. I think that he did the things he did, but he`s somehow through his own mental telepathy had erased them out of his mind.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
PINSKY: So, Darlene, you actually were involved with someone who was involved in these sorts of behaviors that are alleged here. Does this all sound familiar? Where the perpetrator is in denial, they compartmentalize, they disavow those parts of themselves?
DARLENE ELLISON, FMR. WIFE OF CONVICTED SEX OFFENDER: I do agree with that portion of it, yes. I think that, you know, I answer a lot of questions about pedophiles based on my own experiences and, you know, anywhere from, well, how could they possibly be married, which we now - you know, we know from the research the majority of them are actually heterosexual, to the compartmentalization, you know, because I - I dealt with the same issues.
You know, in hindsight going back and going why did he choose me, you know, what is it about me, when in essence better understanding the, you know, the behaviors of the pedophile and trying to understand that the deviant minds and why, why it would be me and in essence it wasn`t really choosing me, it was creating a life of normalcy that was a facade, if you will, and - and creating that life so that this other life could be led.
PINSKY: And, Darlene, let me - let me talk about - let`s talk together about Laurie and what she must be feeling when she hears these things from these young boys for the first time.
What do you think went through her mind? It seems like she`s taking somewhat of a different approach to many women, which is the feeling of betrayal and shock, and sometimes, you know, reach out for help. It seems like she has gone into a protective mode where she`s unwilling to - to sort of crack the veneer.
ELLISON: Well, and she`s a hard - she`s a hard one to look at. I don`t want to hold her out as a case study of women who have been in serious relationships or married to pedophiles, because in the last couple days, I have been, you know, contacted by several women who have gone through similar situations as what I have gone through with the, you know, the Sandusky situation, and the reaction, I don`t think that Laurie Fine represents, whether it be from these - these tapes or alleged tapes, if you will, and the statements that she is making.
I think that there is - there`s a shock and awe. If you truly knew nothing, and I`m not sure I believe that she truly knew nothing, so - but in most cases when you truly know nothing and you are hit with the - are you kidding me? There`s no way.
There is so much shock and trauma, and the thoughts - whether it`s on - I know people have thrown stones at - you know, the verbal stones towards Dottie Sandusky, and saying, well, she`s so quiet, that must mean that she knew something, and I don`t agree with that. I don`t know her and I don`t know, you know, what she has gone through in terms of what she knew and what she didn`t know.
You know, if anybody knew and they didn`t report it, they need to be tried. It`s very, very simple. But -
PINSKY: Yes, I agree.
ELLISON: -- there is so much - there`s just so much pain and so much - there are so many things that could be going through their minds. I know in my case, it was everywhere from, "Oh, my gosh, did he abuse my children?" "What about the kids who were visiting the home?" All those things that to me had been the good things in life or oh, wow, he loved kids, he loved volunteering with kids. He loved being around kids. That`s a good thing, and yet now in hindsight it`s a red flag.
And so there`s so much confusion, so many lies. There`s also - you know, these women, both Sandusky and Fine, are in the first few weeks, month of - of the finding out, if they -
PINSKY: But, Darlene, I am not so sure. I`m not so sure in the case of Laurie Fine. I think Laurie Fine is -
ELLISON: (INAUDIBLE).
PINSKY: -- I agree with you, is different. And there`s allegations that she had some sexual perpetration of her own, so she may be colluding with her husband in really bizarre ways here.
Now, CNN`s Gary Tuchman knocked on the front door of Laurie Fine`s home. And she came to the door, agreed to talk. Didn`t deny that this was her on those tapes. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (on camera): Hi. I`m Gary Tuchman from CNN.
FINE (on camera): Yes.
TUCHMAN: I`m sorry to bother you.
FINE: You`re not bothering me.
TUCHMAN: But I was hoping I can ask you - your nephew was saying that you might have a statement?
FINE: We have no statement.
TUCHMAN: So you`re not - you`re not going to make a statement?
FINE: Not today.
TUCHMAN: Is that tape - is that tape misinterpreted, though?
FINE: I have no comment.
TUCHMAN: Look, how come - how come you can`t comment?
FINE: I cannot comment.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: All right, Mark. I`m going to give you a chance to dig your teeth into this a little bit. She doesn`t say much, but she doesn`t deny it.
What do you think we should do with all of this?
MARK EIGLARSH, ATTORNEY: First of all, if you listen to a number of portions of the tape, not only does it seem like she knows her husband is doing these horrific acts, but it is arguable that she actually saw some of these things going on.
Here is the problem. While there are laws against adultery in New York, still a crime, and there are crimes to - the statutes that make it a crime to have an ice cream cone in your pocket from Monday through Friday, there are no crimes or no statutes there in New York that make it mandatory that you report an abuse on a child, period. Unless, of course you are a health care professional.
PINSKY: Whoa - whoa, Mark, slow down.
EIGLARSH: Yes.
PINSKY: Slow down. Slow down. What? Say that again.
EIGLARSH: Drew, unless you`re a teacher in the course of your profession, a doctor, a professional, who in the course of their employment learn (ph) about the abuse -
PINSKY: Wait a minute. Are you sure of that?
EIGLARSH: -- you have to report. Otherwise -
PINSKY: (INAUDIBLE)?
EIGLARSH: Drew, unfortunately that`s the case.
PINSKY: All right. I have been taking issue with the college administrators. Presumably they have a responsibility to report, correct?
EIGLARSH: Well, it depends. If in the course of their professional duties they come across children who report, then they have an obligation. But a random person, an adult, who sees a child victimized, believe it or not, there is no mandatory reporting requirement, and I asked legislators why.
PINSKY: And what do they say? What is their answer? There`s absolutely no excuse for this.
EIGLARSH: Well, I ask -
PINSKY: I live in California. I tell you, there`s all kinds of obligations here.
EIGLARSH: Yes. I asked them rhetorically. I`d like a response actually. I`d like to know why there is not that reporting a crime.
And I guess it`s a slippery slope, that there will be reporting requirements for - I don`t know - murder and other offenses like you would hope that someone would report, and then maybe there`s some constitutional issues involved.
The bottom line is that the time has come to make mandatory reporting requirements when adults, even adult strangers, see children being molested.
PINSKY: Wow. I - I did not realize it was that lax. So thank you for clarifying that for me.
Mark and Darlene, join me in the next segment. Mike, thanks for that update.
Coming up, it wasn`t an alleged victim who first called the cops on Coach Bernie Fine. We`ll talk about who originally reported it to the police.
And later, Conrad Murray`s attorney is here with me. We`re going to get his reaction to his client`s sentencing today.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: Syracuse Police have come forward defending their decision not to pass on Bobby Davis` allegations of sexual abuse by Coach Bernie Fine to the Syracuse District Attorney. They say by the time they talked to him, the statute of limitations had passed.
They also say it actually wasn`t Bobby Davis who first went to them. It was his girlfriend that first went to the cops. Police got a call from her letting her know her friend had confessed to her that he had been abused. A month later, the alleged victim, Bobby Davis, called himself.
Joining us, convicted sex offender, Jake Goldenflame; a former wife of a convicted pedophile, Darlene Ellison; and Attorney Mark Eiglarsh.
Mark, what does this mean that they - they were worried about the statute having run out? Wouldn`t it still - again, I`m confused by people`s unwillingness to see their obligations here. Shouldn`t they at least look into somebody when these kinds of allegations are being made and should they still have reported it upstream a bit?
EIGLARSH: The answer is yes and no. No because it would have no impact at all. We have precious resources that should be devoted to crimes that if they are solved could then lead to a prosecutable case.
In this instance, five years, which is the statute of limitations in New York had run. It would have no impact if they investigate. And they say, OK, we think you`re guilty, come with us, we`ll throw you in the pokey. It would have no impact. So the answer is no.
Or, yes, sure, let`s find out the truth and use valuable resources to find out that the guy did this, when really, what`s the impact?
PINSKY: All right. Mark, you`ve enlightened us in the last segment a little bit about the legislative issues that pertains reporting sexual abuse. Do you have the same concerns I have that there`s issues within college campuses where they seem to be insulated, they seem to feel as so they`re not so much above the law but they should be handling their own affairs like any dysfunctional family and that they don`t really understand what the reporting requirements are even?
EIGLARSH: The answer is yes, but I would never limit it to college campuses. I think it`s everywhere. I think that we need - you`re doing your part, we`re doing our part here to tell everyone, listen, this is a priority.
Focus on the adverse - the adversity to a child and what they go through the rest of their life, think about that. Put that first before the money, before all of the other issues, before the politics, before the PR, think about the children. You don`t have to be a father of three like I am to understand that adults are ruining kids` lives. You`ve got to do something.
PINSKY: Jake Goldenflame, I want to go to you. Mark said adults are ruining kids` lives. A, do you agree with that? And I know you deal with these guys that are victimizers all the time. And B, what do you think Fine is going through now that this is also public?
JAKE GOLDENFLAME, CONVICTED SEX OFFENDER: Well, I think we oversimplify it when we say that these guys are ruining children`s lives, even though that`s a true statement. What I think would be a more accurate way of viewing the situation is to say there is a problem called child sex abuse, and it operates very much like an illness.
That is, in many cases when a person has been abused as a child sexually by someone, in many cases that person themselves becomes an abuser. Not all, most victims do not.
But on the hand, and as to quote Dr. Fred Berlin, who was considered the leading therapist for sex offenders, he states that when you go into the prisons as he and his associates have done and make a survey, what you`ll find is that virtually every convicted child molester there reports that he himself was a victim when he was a child.
So you`re looking at an illness more than a crime, even though the intent is criminal or the act is criminal, the intent comes from an illness as a result of having been abused quite often in your own case, so it jumps from generation to generation to generation. That`s what`s going on here. And I think we have to recognize that to discuss it intelligently.
As regards to Mr. Fine -
PINSKY: Yes. I -
GOLDENFLAME: OK.
PINSKY: Go ahead.
GOLDENFLAME: I`ll hold. Well, I was going to say with regard to Mr. Fine, and I say this based on my own experience, 25 years ago, when I had to confront the fact that I had become an abuser, and now I had to answer to the law, as well as the experience of other convicted sex offenders that I`ve counseled since then as part of my work for a nonprofit.
When the mask is ripped off and the world is allowed to see this terrible side of our character that has developed over time where we are now abusing children ourselves, the - the shame and the pain of both having to face it ourselves as well as have others face it is so great that it is quite common, and I went through this, too, I must admit, you become often suicidal in your - in your thinking.
You start to think I can`t bear this, I can`t bear what`s going to happen to me, I can`t bear what my future is going to be, and you seriously start thinking of taking your own life.
PINSKY: I actually have been very concerned that Sandusky is going to be a problem that way, that he could easily take his own life. And, again, we`ve got to remind ourselves while we`re talking about these explicit conditions, these are all still in the realm of allegations as in pertains to the story that we`re reporting on.
Darlene, I want to go to you. After you`ve heard what Jake Goldenflame just said, is that what your husband went through and is that all familiar territory for you as well?
ELLISON: You know, I - I do understand that it`s an illness and I guess I come from it from a different perspective. And with a psychological background, I mean, I also look at it as, you know, pedophilia has this continuum of actions, if you will, and, you know, you have those that view child pornography that`s on their computer at one end of a continuum, and those that at the other end of the continuum are a member of an organization like NAMBLA - North American Man/Boy Love Association, and who have this life, this philosophical belief system in life that they are only mentoring. That it`s mutual love and that they are not doing anything wrong.
So I think - because then you start talking about rates of recidivism and things like that, and so while I recognize it as an illness, you know, I`m not convinced that while there`s the shock and awe when they realize what they`ve done wrong, and then, OK, now, I`m going to do what I need to do to be better, to act better, to behave better. So, you know, I guess I have some conflict about that.
PINSKY: Let me ask you this. Well, I`ve got less than 20 seconds here. But did your husband get into some kind of program and is he in recovery or is he still sort of somebody we should be suspicious about?
ELLISON: You know, I will say that he is - he was released from prison and he is serving a 12-year supervised release program. We do not have contact and terminated rights, parental rights with my children. So I don`t know that. I don`t know the answer to that.
PINSKY: OK.
Now, those of you that watched last night know - thank you, by the way, Mark and Jake and Darlene. A very good panel. Hope to have you guys back in soon.
Now, those who watched last night know that I had a couple of thoughts about Kim Kardashian punching her husband. But, what do you think? "On Call" is next. I thought I give - give you a chance to give me some feedback.
I tell you why I thought there was a ridiculous display at Dr. Conrad Murray`s sentencing today. What did his attorney think? He will be here to discuss it. Stay tuned.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KRIS HUMPHRIES, PROFESSIONAL BASKETBALL PLAYER: I am going to rub your face in it.
KIM KARDASHIAN, TELEVISION PERSONALITY: Stop. Ow. You just [bleep] ruined my pedicure. Seriously? You [bleep] my whole toe just [bleep] broke in half. You always do this to me because you`re so rough.
HUMPHRIES: How am I rough? [Bleep] relax!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That was Kim Kardashian and her estranged husband having a little argument. It aired on her E! reality show "Courtney and Kim Take New York."
Now, I called it this way. What we all saw in that little clip was domestic violence. If I were, in fact, if I were going to give a class, a lecture on domestic violence, I would show footage. That would be a perfect example of where domestic violence starts.
For instance, if somebody says to me, "You know, I drink on Saturday nights and I drink until I blackout. I do horrible things I regret, but it`s only Saturday night. It doesn`t affect my work. My grandfather and my father are alcoholics, but I`ve got it under control." I say no, that`s alcoholism.
It`s the beginning phase of an illness that goes to a progressive or horrible place and it`s precisely the issue with domestic violence. It goes to a horrible place.
Now, you all had a lot to say about my comments. And now it`s your turn.
Maria in Las Vegas, go ahead.
MARIA, LAS VEGAS, NV: Hi, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Maria.
MARIA: I saw the videotape you showed last night of Kim and Kris, and I just want to say that domestic violence and assaults are just being normalized by -
PINSKY: Yes.
MARIA: -- the number of shows portraying this behavior as either entertaining or cute. I think the public becomes desensitized to violence and it becomes mainstream.
PINSKY: Maria, I think you`re absolutely right. The fact that it`s normalized, and, again, I challenge everyone out there to discuss this with your kids. Show your kids that this behavior is pathological, it`s not OK. If they should ever be involved in something like that, they need help.
Jennifer on Facebook writes, "I don`t see this as domestic violence at all. Yes, she hit him but not in an aggressive, malicious manner. It was just them fooling around."
Take a look at the footage. I mean, it was aggressive. That you cannot roundhouse somebody. That`s not OK.
By the way, the way he`s holding her is not OK and he does have a tendency to be - to throw her around and push her, that`s not OK, either.
Now, perhaps with some education this could stop if they decide to pursue their marriage, but they will need some interventions here about domestic violence, specifically because that`s what`s going on here.
Back to the phones. Gwen in Wyoming, go ahead.
GWEN, CHEYENNE, WY: Hi, Dr. Drew. I just wanted to say that your show last night hit the nail on the head.
PINSKY: Thank you.
GWEN: Domestic violence does not discriminate, you know, rich or poor, male or female.
PINSKY: That`s right.
GWEN: -- substance abuse or sobriety. I have been abused and I have abused. Domestic violence really is no joke. Either words, attitudes or assault.
PINSKY: Well, you bring up some very important points.
First is that just because you`re a victim doesn`t mean you can`t be a victimizer. Those that are the victims of domestic violence may themselves perpetrate. You`re right. That`s a very courageous thing to say.
Also, gender, size, I don`t care if it`s a little effusion (ph) doing it. It doesn`t matter. It`s still domestic violence.
Quick here, Heather on Facebook writes, "I`ve experienced domestic violence myself a few times, but my boyfriend has apologized. We still argue, but I don`t think it will get to that point of violence again."
Here is what everyone needs to know. It will. Without treatment it absolutely will. Apologies mean nothing once you cross that line. Please get help.
Now, we have asked Kim Kardashian and Kris Humphries and their representatives haven`t responded to my observations. Haven`t heard back from them yet. We`ll have a little more on this of course later today.
But next, has justice been served in the Conrad Murray case? Was the judge doling out justice or was he grandstanding and preaching from a bully pulpit? Got some thoughts about this. I`ll explain after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JUDGE MICHAEL PASTOR, L.A. COUNTRY SUPERIOR COURT: Dr. Murray created a set of circumstances and became involved in a cycle of horrible medicine. The practice of propofol for medicine madness.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: Just hours ago, the final chapter in Michael Jackson`s death was written. Dr. Conrad Murray was sentenced to four years in prison by a very angry, seemingly, judge. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PASTOR: People are depending upon Dr. Murray to be candid with them regarding Mr. Jackson`s medical condition. Dr. Murray is lying. He`s lying to the AEG people. He`s lying to Mr. Ortega. He`s lying to the insurance carrier, and anybody else he can, and he`s engaged in personal matters while he should be paying attention to his patient.
Anybody who takes an objective view of what was going on here has to come to an ineluctable conclusion that Dr. Murray abandoned his patient.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Joining me to discuss this, Dr. Alon Steinberg, cardiologist, and he was an expert witness for the prosecution in this case. Garo Ghazarian, he is the attorney for Dr. Arnold Klein, Michael Jackson`s friend and dermatologist. You know, I have issue with doctors being friends. And the man who sat next to Dr. Murray in court today, his attorney, his defense attorney, Nareg Gourjian.
Nareg, you know, I read your brief. You submitted this eloquent brief, and in here is a really touching story about Dr. Murray`s life. Did it have any impact on the judge at all or did he already -- had he had his mind made up and he was out for blood?
NAREG GOURJIAN, ATTORNEY FOR CONRAD MURRAY: Well, apparently it didn`t. As you know, the judge imposed the high term of four years on Dr. Murray. We felt it was critical and important for the judge to consider the full book of Dr. Murray`s life.
PINSKY: And it`s quite a life. I don`t think people are aware. I mean, he lived in extreme adversity in the Caribbean, and sort of made his way out. He`s a diligent student and a good cardiologist and then got sucked into this vortex that was not so good.
GOURJIAN: Absolutely. I mean, we`re talking about a 50-year-old individual who had absolutely no prior criminal record. He was a cardiologist for 20 plus years.
PINSKY: But why did the judge kept saying he`s a menace to society. He has to be behind bars. I mean, Sandusky is out walking around. I think he`s a little more of a problem than Conrad Murray, isn`t he?
GOURJIAN: I agree. I think he had to justify the imposition of the high term, because if you look at the factors that are self-worth in the California rules of court, most, if not all of them, weighed in favor of either probation or at least the low term of two years and not the four- term. So, I think the judge was forced to bring up other matters to justify in position of the four-year prison term.
PINSKY: Now, Alon, you were a witness for the prosecution. You and I have spoken very critically about some of the stuff Dr. Murray was doing, but didn`t you, too, get a little bit of a chill with the judge being so vehement and also, by the way, so preachy? I mean, really, do I want to hear from a judge about the doctor/patient relationship and good medical practice. Is a criminal judge going to talk about that? Didn`t bother you?
DR. ALON STEINBERG, CARDIOLOGIST, PROSECUTION WITNESS: It bothered me some, but, a lot of stuff was unfortunately true. He was, you know, very flagrant in all the mistakes he made, and he wanted to set an example to Conrad Murray.
PINSKY: Setting an example, doesn`t bother you at all -- doesn`t it send a little bit of a chill down your spine about -- listen, I`ll take that judge down to some pill mills down in Florida and show lots of medicine being practiced like that and people who feel very justified in practicing that kind of medicine.
STEINBERG: Yes. I see what your point is, but it shouldn`t be justified, and we need to be on notice as physicians that we need to practice within the standard of care and try and help our patients to the very least.
PINSKY: I`ll tell you, every time I see somebody really get into trouble, a doctor, is when they don`t have proper training on addiction and they get involved with a drug addict and don`t know it. They get into that dance and they get sucked into the vortex.
STEINBERG: You don`t have some sympathy, you know, so you have some sympathy for Dr. Murray a lot.
PINSKY: I have sympathy for him. I don`t think it`s OK. I don`t think it`s OK at all, but I also, -- what I don`t like is blaming the victim, number one. I don`t think it`s OK to say this -- this was awful, let`s face it, but he got sucked in way over his head, and other doctors are doing the same, and we have an obligation as a medical profession to look at that issue is my point.
But Garo, you made a point earlier is that the judge made a big issue about how he showed no remorse and didn`t feel guilty for what he had done. Wouldn`t that have been a problem for him in appeal if he had done that?
GARO GHAZARIAN, ATTORNEY FOR ARNOLD KLEIN, JACKSON`S DERMATOLOGIST: I think every time there`s appellate remedies that are being explored, I am sure Nareg and his team are exploring those, to have your client make a statement of allocution or any kind of showing of remorse really defeats the purpose of the --
PINSKY: So, the judge coming up and saying that he should have been showing more remorse and feelings of guilt, you might have been coaching him not to do that.
GOURJIAN: Well, I didn`t have to coach him. Dr. Murray has been adamant from the very beginning as to what occurred on June 25th, and he`s always said he`s loved Mr. Jackson, and he would never do anything that would hurt Mr. Jackson.
PINSKY: Not intentionally.
GOURJIAN: Right. But as far as getting out there and apologizing or accepting responsibility like the judge would have liked, he was adamant that he was not going to do that.
PINSKY: Oh, what do you think about that?
STEINBERG: I think we should absolutely accept our mistakes. I mean, there`s clear errors that he made, and he has to realize it that he got himself in trouble by not recognizing --
PINSKY: That`s the arrogance again. Yes.
GHAZARIAN: No, no. Forgive me, gentlemen. You know, accepting responsibility is one thing in the outside world, but in a criminal courtroom, when you accept responsibility --
PINSKY: You`re saying guilty.
GHAZARIAN: You`re accepting the guilty verdict, OK?
PINSKY: Right.
GHAZARIAN: And there`s a big difference between --
PINSKY: So, you would advise him not to do that.
GHAZARIAN: Absolutely. Not only that, I feel compelled to say that I, too, read Nareg`s brief. It is a brilliantly written brief.
PINSKY: Yes, beautiful. It`s quite a story.
GHAZARIAN: And the oral argument of his colleague, co-counsel Mr. Chernoff was right on point. You know, you took away a 58-year-old man`s 56 years of life and you dump it in the toilet by saying, well, this is a menace to society and a danger to community. Nonsense. At most, at most, after reading this brief, I thought that the judge would not impose anything greater than the mid term of three years which would still be a significant sentence.
PINSKY: And Nareg, that would be the usual thing, would it not? They certainly choose the middle ground, unless, some extreme circumstance. Is this judge out of line here?
GOURJIAN: Absolutely. I mean, the upper term is usually for the most heinous offenses or for gang members or for someone with a prior criminal record or when you have an incident with physical violence, someone with weapons. None of that in this case.
PINSKY: I`m Dr. Murray. Nareg, I am devastated. I trusted you guys. What do you tell him? What do you tell me, Conrad Murray?
GOURJIAN: Well, Dr. Murray ever since the conviction, he`s clearly disappointed with the jury`s findings, clearly disappointed with the sentencing today, but he has always been adamant as far as his legal team goes. He is very proud and very happy with the defense that he got.
PINSKY: So, he`s not angry with you guys.
GOURJIAN: Absolutely not. As far as the sentencing memoranda goes, I`d like to say, it was a team effort. All the defense team got together, and we all did --
PINSKY: Your name is first on the signature, though, I saw that.
GOURJIAN: Thank you.
GHAZARIAN: It was the only signature.
PINSKY: I noticed that, yes. How is Conrad Murray doing today?
GOURJIAN: Well, he`s doing the best under the circumstances. Like I said, he`s disappointed with the sentencing, but he wasn`t surprised.
PINSKY: Oh, that`s interesting, because he was surprised at first, and now, he`s not surprised. So, he knew this judge had a thing.
GOURJIAN: Well, you know, Dr. Murray always hopes for the best.
PINSKY: Yes.
GOURJIAN: But we were expecting the worst. I think the judge has made it clear from his rulings earlier on, from remanding Dr. Murray.
PINSKY: That, yes. That what he surprise --
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: What about this reality show thing, you guys, the judge brought up, this documentary.
GOURJIAN: Well, you know what, I don`t really feel comfortable commenting on that. That was all done prior to my involvement in this case, and I had absolutely no role.
PINSKY: Is this the British documentary? Is that one?
GOURJIAN: Yes, I believe so.
PINSKY: OK. Alon, we`re the doctors in the panel. What do we do with all this? Where does this go? I mean, it`s kind of a sad day that our profession is being --
STEINBERG: It`s unfortunate because it shows one bad apple, I think.
PINSKY: Yes.
STEINBERG: But overall, I think medicine is a great profession. We mostly are ethical and try to do the right thing, and the judge was making an example of this one doctor that we all need to practice within the standard of care in good medicine. And, I think that, in general, it looks bad on doctors at least today, but we`re put on notice.
And I think that as long as we practice well within our boundaries, I think, physicians are going to be fine.
GHAZARIAN: He`s not a bad apple, first of all. A bad apple -- it`s an apple with a nick, you know? You cannot say a bad apple. Good people do bad things.
PINSKY: Is your apple chilling these days?
GHAZARIAN: My apple has his own aches and pains.
PINSKY: Is he getting worried?
GHAZARIAN: No, he`s not worried.
PINSKY: OK.
GHAZARIAN: I`m not worried for him either.
PINSKY: I think the big message here from our peers is, don`t go it alone. Consult with your peers, always collaborate. Collaborate. Medicine is so complicated these days.
STEINBERG: And I think I practiced, improved medicine since this case, because when I`m not sure about something, I`m quick to ask my colleague, quick to ask for help.
PINSKY: You made a great example of this issue of doctors being the "friend." Boy, when there are mental health issues, you are not the friend.
Yes, I got to go to break.
Next, the fighting, the drinking, the sex, lots of Americans love reality TV, but it can be really bad for you, I suspect. I` going to tell you why and explore that when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: Alcohol fueled fights, anonymous sex, and domestic violence. Now, you may be letting your children watch reality television, but I don`t know. You may real think about how you allow them to watch it. Watch these clips from Oxygen "Bad Girls Club" and MTV`s "Jersey Shore."
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I really am psycho. You don`t know.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Seriously?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let`s do it! Let`s do it!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I didn`t do nothing.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I (EXPLETIVE DELETED) not you, you (EXPLETIVE DELETED) (EXPLETIVE DELETED) (EXPLETIVE DELETED)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Whatever. I forgot to put underwear on.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, baby!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is the greatest day of my life.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: So, did you ever think about what this is all kind of impact this all having on our kids and on ourselves. Joining me to discuss this, Lisa Boesky, a clinical psychologist, Dylan Howard, senior executive editor of Radar Online, Lisa Bloom, an attorney and author of "Think," her best- selling book, which offers a behind-the-scenes look at reality shows.
All right. Lisa, our kids are watching this stuff. They`re modeling behaviors after it. It`s not all that different than daytime dramas were, is it? I mean, think about it. That was sick people acting sick. It was scripted television. Why is it necessarily qualitatively different when you`re watching reality shows?
LISA BLOOM, ATTORNEY: I think it is different. And I represented a number of people who have been on reality shows. And I`m here to say they`re about one percent reality and 99 percent show. The stuff is all scripted. It`s all staged. And more importantly, it presents the worst possible images of women.
If women are watching this and girls are watching this, they should be watching it critically and thinking, why are the only images presented to us by these shows and networks, women being stupid, women being violent, women with no ideas, contributions or goals of their own. I mean, it`s completely offensive, and frankly, a slap in the face to women.
PINSKY: Lisa, what does the research show us? Do we have any measured data on the impact this is having on our kids?
LISA BOESKY, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, I think it`s too young to really know what the research is saying. Research is only starting to be done right now. What they are showing, though, is that kids who watch a lot of reality TV are more likely to disclose a lot of personal details about themselves and their everyday life like in a blog.
Things that are very uninteresting and tedious they think the whole world wants to know because that`s what they`re watching on TV.
PINSKY: Sounds more like the culture of narcissism, though. Dylan, we`re making much ado about nothing or is there something they worried about here?
DYLAN HOWARD, SR. EXECUTIVE EDITOR, RADARONLINE: No, I think there is. The Russell Armstrong situation really highlighted how shows that are, by their very nature, scripted, can have dramatic and devastating consequences on real people. In that scenario, Russell Armstrong created a fictitious life, lived above his means, and ultimately, he made a decision to commit suicide.
And he`s not alone when it comes to reality television. There`ve been something like 14 reality television deaths since this genre of television really came to the forefront. So, I don`t think we`re making much ado about nothing, and I don`t think the Kim Kardashian situation helps.
PINSKY: So, let`s talk about that. So -- first of all, I`m sort of still trying to get over the fact you say the most of it is scripted, because the show I do, the "Celebrity Rehab," and we just document treatment the way I always do treatment.
HOWARD: Sure. I have a view about that. You have producers that work on that program.
PINSKY: Yes. But they are not allowed to get near these patients. They used to. I do not allow anybody near these patients.
BLOOM: In reality TV, usually there`s take after take after take.
PINSKY: When you put a drug addict together, it is dramatic.
HOWARD: Sure.
PINSKY: And so, they don`t have to touch anybody.
HOWARD: Sure.
PINSKY: And stuff goes down no matter what when you`re treating addicts and put them in a closed environment.
HOWARD: And when we`re talking about "Celebrity Rehab," that is a show that has a higher good. The Kardashians doesn`t necessarily have a greater good.
PINSKY: I completely agree, but I`m not sure the show has to have a greater good or have to be therapeutic in its orientation so much as we, as viewers, and your readers, you know, our kids, we have to realize that we, as viewers, are the problem. Not the people that produce these things, because if we didn`t watch them, they would not produce them.
BLOOM: But the show has to be responsible. When you take Kim Kardashian who`s a glamorous figure to girls all over this country, they buy her shoes, they buy her perfume, and she takes a closed fist, pulls back, and tries to punch her partner in the face, that`s an irresponsible act by a major celebrity.
PINSKY: I absolutely agree. And so, what should we do as viewers knowing that our kids are watching this stuff.
HOWARD: There`s study in 2005 that said that 82 percent of viewers, these are adult viewers, believe that reality television is, quote, "totally made up" or, quote, "mostly distorted," but it`s not necessarily the adults that are at issue here, it`s the children.
PINSKY: Yes.
HOWARD: And there`s a large viewing going public that watch the Kardashians.
PINSKY: Yes. So, what we should be -- this is what I`m concerned about is I lay the blame squarely with us as viewers, which is OK, if we didn`t watch this stuff, they wouldn`t produce it. That`s the first fact. Second fact is, our kids are watching it, so we, as parents, if that`s a fact that your kids are watching this, must watch these shows with the kids.
Last night, I completely went off on the Kardashian thing because that was domestic violence and everyone brushed it off as no big deal. Every kid in the country should be shown that and go that`s not OK.
(CROSSTALK)
BLOOM: Watch these shows critically with your kids and ask questions, who`s benefiting from it? Who`s profiting from this?
PINSKY: By the way, so the footage we just aired here, we saw a bunch of guy on steroids acting out aggressively. That`s what guys on steroids do, by the way. You want to learn some of that guys (ph) on steroids. They get violent. They get suicidal. They become manic, and they`re addicted. That`s what you just watched on "Jersey Shore." Why aren`t we having those conversations.
BLOOM: Right. And behind the scenes.
PINSKY: Wait, wait, wait. Dylan is trying to get something --
HOWARD: We need to tell our children that it is scripted. What you are watching with the Kardashians is not reality. Now, you may say "Celebrity Rehab" is not scripted, but trust me, there are people behind the scenes that know when they bring Michael Lohan and Kate Major, his girlfriend together.
They`re going to have fireworks on camera. So, that, in a sense, is scripted. They know that they`re going to create a story line, start, finish, and end.
BLOOM: Every reality show, producers before the show, are telling the participants, you have to have a lot of energy. Give it to her, give it to him, you`re angry at him, aren`t you? We want to see that on camera. They`re fanning the flames.
I can tell you, that`s the kind of "reality," quote, unquote, that they`re producing. In my book, I talked about how to reclaim your brain from these kinds of shows.
PINSKY: Yes.
BLOOM: The step-by-step guide on what you should be doing, if you can`t turn it off, how to watch it critically with your children.
PINSKY: There you go. I think that`s the bottom line. Lisa, I`m going to give you the last word. Lisa Boesky.
BOESKY: Well, I think a lot of times, these kids are watching the shows without their parents around. I think we take it for granted shows like "Jersey Shore" that, oh, my kid isn`t going to learn from this. They know that it`s not real. This absolutely has an impact.
And even things like the "Bachelor" and the "Bachelorette," six weeks of fantasy suites and fantasy dates and that`s how we pick our soul mate? That stuff is just as dangerous but in a different context. Kids shouldn`t be watching it or the parents absolutely need to --
PINSKY: We`re all saying the same thing, though. And by the way, my excellent panel stays with me for the next segment. We`re all saying the same thing, because these are teaching opportunities, guys. If you`re going to watch them, let`s watch them in a healthy way, because there actually is a healthy way to consume this stuff.
Next, it`s a reality series that was part of a real life tragedy when one of the stars killed himself. We mentioned that already. Has anything changed for the "Real Housewives" franchise? Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We`ve been protecting you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Because we don`t say that he hit you. Because we don`t say that he broke your jaw or that he beat you up and he hit you. We don`t say that, but now we said it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Earlier this summer, real life tragedy struck the "Real Housewives of Beverly Hills" when Taylor Armstrong`s husband, Russell, was found dead, apparently, having hanged himself. Taylor had filed for divorce from Russell just one month earlier, amidst allegations of domestic violence. Russell was headed out of the show`s season premier, but his character has resurfaced. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We`re bringing the cake down and sing a song.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let`s do that for --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. We had three --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is really going to happen now.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Would you relax?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have a very nice gift that is going to be ready.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right, but I`m saying that we don`t have -- anyway, Russell, never mind.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Dylan, I actually feel like I need a shower just having aired this on my show.
HOWARD: Yes. That was not reality, because if it was reality, they wouldn`t have been at a birthday party, living above their means when they`re in severe financial troubles. And there was also a scene last night where they were talking to a marriage counselor, the two of them sitting on a couch. There was no mention about domestic violence.
If it was reality, then the television producers ought to show what really went on, the allegations of domestic abuse, but we didn`t hear that. It was glossed over. It wasn`t reality. It was morbid, it was disgusting, and to be honest as a viewer of that show, I was completely surprised that the producers put a scene in there about going to a marriage counselor and not talking about what the allegations were. There was a chance to do good and they didn`t do it.
PINSKY: And again, these shows have opportunity to teach and do some good. Lisa Bloom has a book called "Think." It`s a finalist for the best non- fiction book of 2011 for the Good Read Choice Award and you get into the impact of these programs. Do you have a similar view to Dylan on the fact that Russell shows up back on the show?
BLOOM: Well, I think the "Real Housewives" is one of the most egregious examples of dumbing down women that there is on reality TV. You know, all the women do on that show is buy things and sit around and complain and bitch and moan about their lives. There`s no contributions. There`s no accomplishments. They never use their minds. It`s a terrible role modeling for girls. I mean, that`s --
PINSKY: You`re right. And Lisa Boesky, I`m going to go out to you, again, I`ve been on the sets, and I`ve seen the screening instruments that they used to select people for reality show. They go for people that have tons of psychopathology, but just they cut -- it`s funny, they don`t even know what question to ask really to determine whether somebody is stable for a reality show or not.
They just need to know that they`re not actively psychotic, that they`re not actively suicidal, but they want them plenty sick, don`t they?
BOESKY: That`s exactly right. They want them, they want to have enough mental health issues so that they`ll be interesting and exciting, but they don`t want them to have too many mental health issues that they`ll get themselves in trouble. And I think one thing that we have to be aware of with this season of Beverly Hills housewives is that, although, it`s awful that they`re putting Russell in there, if you watch the show, there is nothing else going on the entire season.
If they edit him out, they would have no show. So, I think it is terrible the way that they`re doing it, but I also think that they know their life is boring. Those women have nothing going on in their lives. And without this, there`s nothing for them to talk about.
PINSKY: Lisa, thank you, Lisa Boesky, Lisa Bloom. Dylan, thank you so much.
Yes. People are interested in sick people acting sick. That`s what people are get attracted to. So, let`s at least consume this stuff in a healthy way. Talk to your kids about it. We`ll see you next time. Thanks for watching.
END
