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Nancy Grace

Ex-Girlfriend Charged in Murder of Motivational Speaker

Aired December 09, 2011 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, live, Arizona. A good- looking young entrepreneur, a motivational speaker, goes missing. But when friends go to search at his upscale five-bedroom home, they find his luxury hybrid still parked there in the garage, wallet, laptop, cellphone neatly placed in the home office. Only one thing out of place, the dead body of 30-year-old Travis Alexander, slumped there on the shower floor, Alexander shot in the face, multiple stab wounds, throat slit.

Bombshell tonight: A single piece of evidence discovered hidden in the laundry leads cops straight to suspect number one. Who? They say a beauty queen turned singer turned jilted lover.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JODI ARIAS, CHARGED WITH MURDER: I didn`t hurt Travis. I would never hurt Travis. I never harmed him physically.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The petite 28-year-old is accused of murdering her ex-boyfriend, Travis Alexander.

ARIAS: I wouldn`t use obsession. I would say -- I don`t know.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: His neck had been slashed from ear to ear. He had been stabbed 27 times and shot in the face.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you kill Travis Alexander?

ARIAS: Absolutely not. No, I had no part in it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police say DNA evidence, including a bloody palmprint found at the scene, linked Jodi Arias to the murder.

ARIAS: There is an explanation for that. It doesn`t prove that I committed a murder, and I didn`t commit a murder.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Bombshell tonight. Live to Arizona. A good-looking entrepreneur, a motivational speaker, goes missing. When friends go to search at his upscale five-bedroom home, they find his luxury hybrid still parked in the garage, wallet, laptop, cellphone neatly placed in the home office. Only one thing out of place, the dead body of 30-year-old Travis Alexander slumped over on the shower floor. Suspect number one, cops say a beauty queen turned singer turned jilted lover.

We are taking your calls. I want to go straight out to Christina Estes with Newstalk 550. Christina, what happened?

CHRISTINA ESTES, NEWSTALK 550 KFYI (via telephone): As you mentioned, Travis`s friends had been trying to reach him for days. He was actually set to leave the next day for a trip to Cancun. He hadn`t been responding to phone calls or texts. One of his friends went to his house, found the car there, his wallet, laptop.

Inside the bedroom came this foul odor. They went inside the bathroom, and that`s where they found Travis slumped in the shower. He`d been dead for several days, shot once in the face, stabbed 27 times. The medical examiner says the fatal act was the stab wound to his heart.

GRACE: Come on, Pat Brown, criminal profiler, author of "The Profiler," 27 stab wounds? That`s a rage killing. That`s what I call a sweetheart murder. You have to be very intimately involved physically with your victim to stab them 27 times.

PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER: There I`m with you, Nancy, because, I mean, this is a -- nobody who just comes in to commit a robbery needs to do that. This was a very directed crime. I -- no, this guy ticked her off and she was is going to get the last of him. She`s a very narcissistic personality disorder, and when he rejected her, she says, I`m going win. And she did, over and over and over again. So absolutely, this is a very personal crime.

GRACE: You know, to Vinnie Politan, host of HLN`s "PRIME NEWS" and "SPECIAL REPORT" -- Vinnie, she told cops at the very beginning that they had broken up, that she hadn`t seen him in some time. But then that one piece of evidence. Describe it, Vinnie.

VINNIE POLITAN, HOST, HLN "PRIME NEWS," "SPECIAL REPORT": Well, there`s photographs. There`s photographs of them that were supposed to be erased but they were found by investigators. And Nancy, the thing that strikes everyone about this case is the woman you`re looking at, Jodi Arias. We`ve covered so many cases, Nancy. This is one of the scariest alleged killers I`ve ever come across.

GRACE: Why do you say that, Vin?

POLITAN: The allegations of shooting someone in the face, stabbing them 27 times, slitting him -- slitting the throat from ear to ear, and then you listen to her in this interview, and it`s like nothing ever happened, Nancy. It`s like...

GRACE: Vinnie, she`s as...

POLITAN: ... Travis was such a great man.

GRACE: ... cold as a cucumber. Oh, yes, Travis was a great guy. Now, according to his friend, Vin, she was crazy about him and had turned into a jilted lover turned stalker. Don`t go anywhere. With me is Vinnie Politan.

Out to a special guest, Taylor Searle, friend of murder victim Travis Alexander. And make no mistake about it. This was not an accidental death, this was a homicide, shot and stabbed 27 times, found slumped over in his shower.

Taylor, thank you for being with us.

TAYLOR SEARLE, FRIEND OF VICTIM (via telephone): Yes.

GRACE: Taylor, what do you know about this woman, Jodi Arias?

SEARLE: Well, I knew that Travis was trying to get away from her for the last two months of his life and felt that she was a real burden on him, moving on with his life after they had broken up and him becoming the person that he wanted to be. And he was very grateful when she finally moved out of the state and was really looking forward to not being around her anymore.

GRACE: But why, Taylor? What do you mean the person he wanted to be? And what did she do that was a bad influence on him?

SEARLE: Not so much that he would say that she was a bad influence. But he was a very unique individual, and that he was very focused on becoming the best person he could and always improving. And he was a motivational speaker. And to those around him, he was always preaching to be your best and to set goals and to improve yourself.

And he was really looking forward to having 2008 be his best year, and he was really trying to find somebody that he could settle down with and marry and have a family and really progress out of his 20s and become an upstanding citizen.

GRACE: But you said something, Taylor. With us, friend of murder victim Travis Alexander. You said he was trying to get away from her. What do you mean by that?

SEARLE: For several weeks at least before he was found dead, well before she moved, he would complain to the close people around him that she was really -- well, in his words, stalking him and really getting in his way of dating other girls and doing -- well, there`s several allegations that she either stole his journal, slashed his tires and did a whole bunch of crazy things to kind of stay close to him.

GRACE: Well, isn`t it true, Taylor, that one night, all of his tires were slashed. He got them fixed. He moved his car the next night and hid it somewhere else. And that night, the tires were slashed again.

SEARLE: Yes. That`s the way he told it. He never really pressed the issue on trying to pin it on her, but in his heart of hearts and those around him, he told that he assumed it was her, but really didn`t want to kick up dust by going after her for it.

GRACE: We are taking your calls. Out to Bambi out in Ohio. Hi, Bambi. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I love your show. You`re awesome.

GRACE: Thank you. Thank you for calling in, dear.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, you`re welcome. My question is, did she have, like, any kind of record, or like, psychiatrists or depression or something that would have tipped people off to (INAUDIBLE)

GRACE: Good question. Good question. Specifically about that, Christina Estes, joining us from KFYI. What do we know about her?

ESTES: No known criminal record. And as far as psychological issues, we`re not aware of any. Of course, some of that may come out during the trial. When you talk about some of the concerns that his friends had as far as some of them describing her as being possessive and very clingy and not wanting to be away from him, some of those issues may come out. But what really is going to be a huge focus during this trial is that camera that you mentioned, those digital images...

GRACE: Oh, Christina Estes! You are so right! Unleash the lawyers. Let`s follow up on what KFYI Christina Estes has to say. Joining us tonight, Sue Moss out of New York, Renee Rockwell, Randy Kessler joining us out of Atlanta studios.

Sue Moss, I don`t know if you`ve read the complaint, but one piece of evidence stands out, and that is a digital camera. On the digital camera - - all right, let`s keep this camera trained, Liz, on Renee Rockwell and Randy Kessler.

I`m reading directly from the criminal complaint. "Also found in the washing machine, the camera appeared as though it had been run through a wash cycle with several articles of clothing, severe water damage, but the digi-card was still intact." Don`t you just love it? All of Travis`s bedding was washed and found in the dryer. The camera was identified as belonging to Travis.

On that camera, Renee, are photos of Travis`s body half clothed on the bed. Then there are photos of Travis dead in the shower. There are also photos, timestamped, of the victim with the defendant. Renee, weigh in.

RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: OK. That wouldn`t be such a problem had she not said that she was not with him. Nancy, have you ever seen somebody go sit down with the police and talk them out of a prosecution? Let`s see what she`s got. She said, first of all, that she wasn`t with him. That`s number one reason you don`t want your client to talk because they`re going to double back and find out that that`s a story.

GRACE: Yes, I don`t even know what you`re talking about. Sue Moss, I just give you the state`s case on a silver platter. What about it, Moss, the digicam?

SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: The digicam, and how about her bloody palmprints? I mean, her only defense is she was playing Twister and she got hands on red!

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Jodi, why do you think investigators believe that you killed Travis?

ARIAS: Well, there`s a lot of forensics suggesting that I was, you know, in his house. Of the evidence that they presented to me, I was asked the question, If you were presented with this evidence and you were a third party, what would you think? And you know, I need to be honest and it`s -- the evidence is very compelling, but none of it proves that I committed a murder. None of it proves I committed a crime. What it does substantiate is what I did tell detectives.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you -- I have to ask you this. Did you kill Travis Alexander?

ARIAS: Absolutely not. No, I had no part in it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did he have any enemies at all?

ARIAS: To my knowledge, no. He was a -- had a strong personality, but he was very well-liked and loved. I just can`t think of a single soul.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: We are live and taking your calls. This gorgeous girl, a beauty queen turned singer turned allegedly jilted lover, now facing charges that she is the one who murdered a 30-year-old entrepreneur, a good-looking young guy, a motivational speaker. They had been involved together for some time, but he breaks it off. Then he is found dead.

Joining us, Taylor Searle. This is a friend of murder victim Travis Alexander. When she says he had a strong personality, what does she mean by that, Taylor?

SEARLE: It was gravitating. People were just attracted to him. Anyone around him liked him and wanted to be around him and glean (ph) influence on him.

GRACE: You know, Travis often talked to you about Jodi Arias. What type of things would he mention?

SEARLE: Well, he would mostly talk about how glad he was that she had moved back to California and that he could focus on dating the girls that he was really interested in. And he was also glad that she wasn`t going to be so intrusive in his life because (INAUDIBLE) stayed away.

GRACE: When you found out that he had been murdered, that Travis was dead, what was your immediate reaction?

SEARLE: I was on the phone with the girls that found him. I was the one that had given them the garage code and was on my way to the house with them to go check on him. And so I was on the phone with them as they found him, and so it was kind of a pretty big shock.

But I guess I was worried to begin with because we were searching his house and trying to find him, and then when he -- when my friend told me that he was not alive, it was just a real shock that the world could lose someone like that and something like that could really happen.

GRACE: Taylor, Jodi Arias is standing by her story she had nothing to do with this, that Travis was a wonderful guy that she had loved very, very much and she would never hurt him. In fact, when she speaks, she`s very calm and composed. What do you make of it?

SEARLE: Well, as far as I`ve heard, as of now, she also has a story in the rotation that she admits doing it. So I kind of stand by that confession.

GRACE: So you believe that she`s changed her story. But what do you make of her being so calm and cool if she takes the stand to say she had nothing to do with it? Would you believe her? Is she the kind of person that her demeanor is convincing?

SEARLE: Well, you wouldn`t want to believe it. You wouldn`t want to assume that she did something like that. But you also wouldn`t want to assume that anyone would do something like that. But guess what, it happened. So I mean, at some point, you have to not judge people on the face and just assume that stuff like that can happen, and the evidence and everything else leads to it. So I mean, it`s kind of hard to believe, but what else is there to believe?

GRACE: With us is Taylor Searle, very dear friend of the murder victim, Travis Alexander. He had everything going for him, the 30-year-old entrepreneur and motivational speaker found dead in his five-bedroom Arizona home, slumped over there in the shower. Everything else in the home was perfectly in order, except in that area of the home. No leads, no clues until cops find one clue in the laundry, a digicam, a digicam full of photos.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ARIAS: (INAUDIBLE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you have a gun? Did Travis have a gun?

ARIAS: To my knowledge, there -- it was, like, a .25-caliber gun. I did own a gun. It was a 9-millimeter, though. And it had never been fired.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Jodi, you`re pretty calm sitting her, somebody who`s been arrested and accused of murdering somebody. How are you managing to stay so calm?

ARIAS: Through my faith and through the knowledge of my own innocence. That`s the only thing. I would be shaking in my boots right now if I had to answer to God for such a heinous crime. But I`m very grateful that this is one thing that I will never have to answer to. And I (INAUDIBLE) when I stand or sit, when I`m before the judgment seat some day and all of my actions, my thoughts, my words, the things I`ve done and said, are called into account, you know, this is not one of those things that will be -- that will be brought up. I`ve done many things that are shameful, but this is not one of them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: We are live and taking your calls. A 30-year-old motivational speaker found dead, everything in his home in order until friends make it to his bathroom. There he is found not only stabbed 27 times but shot, as well.

To Dr. Bill Manion, New Jersey medical examiner. Dr. Manion, what did we learn from the crime scene and the condition of the body?

DR. BILL MANION, NEW JERSEY MEDICAL EXAMINER (via telephone): Well, he had been dead for several days. And the autopsy revealed that the gunshot wound to the head was not a fatal wound. So apparently, he was able to -- they think he was shot in the shower and he was able to struggle back to the bedroom, where he was repeatedly stabbed.

They then believe his body was dragged back to the shower, and as it was being dragged back, whoever was dragging him back put their hand on the wall and they left their bloody handprint on the wall. And oftentimes, when a person is stabbing another person, they will cut their own hand because their hand will slip off the handle and -- and hit the knife.

GRACE: Dr. Manion, the defense is going to have a field day with, is that would she be able to drag the victim across the floor? Did she have the physical capability to drag this guy all the way across the floor? That`s going to give the defense fodder in this trial.

Everyone, we are live in Arizona. Thirty-year-old Travis Alexander, motivational speaker, entrepreneur, found naked, dead in his shower, dried blood on the carpet, blood spatter on the walls. And now chief suspect, suspect number one, is beauty queen turned singer turned jilted lover Jodi Arias.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So you had nothing to do with Travis Alexander`s death?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Nothing to do with it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was stabbed 27 times and shot once in the head, left cheek, which could have done this to him?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t know.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Who do you think killed him?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have no idea.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you think that it was a random thing or somebody that knew him? I mean this is a guy that you were pretty close to.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is a guy I was close to at a time when we were really trying to move apart from each other. So I mean there were certain details about his life that I never did know about and there are even more details that I did not know about as well as details about my life that he didn`t know about because I had moved on. I moved to California. So, we were making a sincere effort to grow apart and to be apart and to move on. But nonetheless he did remain a close friend of mine.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: One thing I want to address is my mug shot. That I think I did a little tilt on my head and gave a little smile. I want to address that because I think people don`t really understand. There are a few reasons I did that. One is, one is -- one of my first thoughts when I was actually being booked, I was like wow I see this stuff on TV all the time, it`s so interesting, it`s almost just like it is on TV. And I thought to myself, what would Travis do if he were in this situation? This is why I`m here. And barring the fact he wouldn`t get himself into such circumstances he would be smiling. He would just flash this grin that he always does. So there was part of that. Then also part of the fact that I knew it would be all over the internet. So, why not.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

NANCY GRACE, HLN HOST: You are seeing video from CBSnews.com. This young woman a beauty queen turned singer turned jilted lover now accused in the stabbing and shooting death of her former boyfriend, a 30-year-old entrepreneur Travis Alexander, a motivational speaker.

We`re taking your calls. Weigh in, Doctor Paula Bloom.

DOCTOR PAULA BLOOM, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST, CO-AUTHOR, WHY DOES HE DO THAT? WHY DOES SHE DO THAT? My goodness. I`m trying to be like a psychologist right mow but this has such an icky factor. Her mood is so inconsistent with what she`s talking about. Listen, we`re all storytellers. We tell ourselves stories all the time. This sound like she didn`t like the fact that he wanted to end it. He had good instinct. He was going to end it. He wanted to move forward. She didn`t like it. And it sounds to me like in some ways if she did do it she feels it was OK for her to do it. She says I`m not worried having to answer to the ultimate authority.

It`s just, God, I want to say people cope with things in different ways, Nancy. Even though I know you don`t like that but seriously, seriously, there`s such an icky factor here and it`s such a tragedy, it sound like this guy really, really could have had an impact in the world.

And so this is why it`s really important. Just because somebody dumps you it doesn`t mean that you have the right, that you have the claim to try to control somebody else`s behavior. He was not against her. He was for him. And she couldn`t get that.

GRACE: We are taking your calls to Crystal in Massachusetts. Hi, Crystal, what`s your question?

CRYSTAL, CALLER, MASSACHUSETTS: Hi, Nancy. First I would like to say welcome to motherhood, your twins are beautiful.

GRACE: Thank you.

CRYSTAL: You`re welcome. And the second thing, I had a question and just list ending to everything this is just very shock. First of all, I heard hearsay that she can -- she has a reason why that I guess they say -- I don`t understand why if you were not there and you were in California why you have a bloody hand print, any blood at all in this man`s house.

GRACE: You know what? There`s so much physical evidence that the defense will have to explain away. Another issue I want to talk about and I`m going to unleash the lawyers again. It turns out, you know let me go to Christina Estes, KFYI. Isn`t it true she was grinning at his memorial?

CHRISTINA ESTES, REPORTER, KFYI: There were some witnesses there who identified her as having sort of a strange smile on her face in addition to her crying as well.

GRACE: You know, Vinnie Politan, HLN "Prime News" and special report, we`ve seen it over and over with suspects and defendants grinning, acting inappropriately. The defense has to explain I want away saying there`s no playbook for grief. How many times that we`ve heard that? But come on, grinning, smiling, laughing, at the memorial?

VINNIE POLITAN, HOST, PRIME NEWS: Another part of it was the interaction. This is a young man that dated other women. Some of those other women were at that memorial and got a weird vibe the way she was looking at them like it was almost as of, my goodness, well, I don`t have them so nobody will have him.

GRACE: But you know, Vinnie, it`s much more than a weird vibe, Vinnie. Describe the photos found on that digicam.

POLITAN: You really want me to do that on television? I mean --

GRACE: Yes.

POLITAN: In two respects. Number one, you`ve got a before and after shortly taken before his death right after I had death so you got those gruesome photos. Then you`ve got what have been described as pornographic photos with the two of them together that day.

GRACE: And that is --

POLITAN: That`s puts her there.

GRACE: The day of the murder.

POLITAN: That puts her there. And we`ve seen an evolution. We don`t know what the defense will be because it has changed. It has changed from I wasn`t there, I was there and there were intruders. She may actually go with self-defense.

GRACE: Vin, they may argue it was whoever took the pictures.

POLITAN: They better be careful if they argue that.

GRACE: Unless it`s clearly one much these where you hold the camera yourself and taking photos. But the time stamp, I guess they are going to have to argue, T.J. Ward. Vinnie is telling us about sex photos between the two of them and then photos before and after death. I guess you`re going to have to argue, T.J., you`re the private investigator that the time stamp was wrong.

T.J WARD, PRIVATE INVESTIGATION, POLYGRAPH, VOICE ANALYSIS EXPERT: Well, it could be. But, you know we have to look. I see these cases all the time. This is almost when this lady was rejected, that he didn`t want to be with her any more, you know she`s like a stalker. She`s going to get revenge. If nobody going have her, you know, she can`t have him nobody will have him. And this is what`s going on here. They`ve got to have all this information and evidence and it`s in the government`s favor.

GRACE: Out to the lines. Sara in Washington. Hi, Sara, what`s your question?

SARA, CALLER, WASHINGTON: Hi, Nancy. I got say we love you here in Washington. My mother and father and I have watched you for years and it is honestly an honor to even speak to you. We love you.

GRACE: Thank you. Thank you very much.

SARA: And everything you do for victims` rights and kids and young and old. You`re truly an angel.

GRACE: What`s your question, love?

SARA: Well, I don`t know too much about this case. But as I`m watching and listening, it really doesn`t -- with the pictures it really doesn`t take a rocket scientist to figure out that she was obviously was there. There`s a bloody palm print. I mean is she that narcissistic to bat her eyes at the police and think she can completely pull this off? And my question is did she know that the pictures had been already found during that interview?

GRACE: I don`t think she knew about the photos. Remember they had to get the digicam card out. And rehabilitate it in order to get the photos off. But we also learned she changed her story. How did she change her story, Vinnie?

POLITAN: It`s changed. It`s evolved. And she changed her story to the police and now there are court filings where it looks like it was self- defense. And what a lot of people believe is as more evidence comes out and she learns about more evidence her story changes to fit the facts.

GRACE: First of all, she said it wasn`t her. Then she said two met up as she was traveling through the state and were attacked by armed assailants. Now her story has changed to self-defense.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think that being in love and loving someone is two different things and there was a point one time where we were in love but it was short-lived.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why did you guys break up?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There was a breach of trust in the relationship.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: On whose part?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Both.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: In police reports from the mesa police department it states some of his family and his friends told the detectives that you had become obsessed with Travis. Is that true?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: His family and friends said that?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: According to the police report.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well I think that -- I`ve only met his grandmother so I don`t think that`s accurate at all for his family to say. But I think that if I were in their shoes I would be going very much off of what police were telling me.

I don`t -- I wouldn`t use obsession. I would say -- I don`t know. I think that when more evidence comes out it will be very telling that it was a two way street and Travis was a wonderful person but he was also very persuasive and hard to say no to.

It was hard -- he wouldn`t allow me to not answer his text message if I didn`t respond, he would keep calling and keep calling until I did. And so to me that wasn`t obsessive behavior on his part, I just took it as a compliment and he wanted to talk to me, OK that`s great.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But were you obsessed with him? Those are the allegations that they make.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No. No, not at all.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So from the time you met and the time you developed this friendship into a relationship --

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: Well, according to her everything is great. Hey, lady, those are prison blues you`re wearing, those striped shirt and pants. You`re behind bars for murder one. In the gruesome fatal attraction murder of a 30-year-old entrepreneur, a young man with the world in front of him. He dumped her. And according to the crime scene evidence photos of him with her were taken just before and just after the murder.

We are taking your calls, out to Joe in Florida. Hi, Joe, what`s your question?

JOE, CALLER, FLORIDA: Hi there, Nancy. You know, I really love your style. I think you`re a terrific lady.

GRACE: Well, thank you.

JOE: This is some wild case. And you were wondering how she might have dragged the body back to the bedroom. There was so much blood on the carpet that the body slid very easily back to the bathroom. You know, no matter how much she weighed or how difficult it was. Of course, that sound a little gruesome but this whole thing is murder and for an attorney to claim self-defense, I mean what kind of funny stuff is he smoking? I mean my God, this is unbelievable.

GRACE: To Joe in Florida, there were 27 stab wounds, gunshot wound and his throat was slit. Now, if you paint the scenario that the prosecution is going to paint you`ll see them and these pornographic or sex photos that were taken. And you are going to get the vision of her coming back over to the home after the break-ups sometime after the break-up, luring him into sex and then killing him like a black widow. So, that we are going to see it in trial. Joe in Florida, what`s your question?

JOE: Well, the question is what kind of funny stuff that the lawyer is smoking claiming self-defense.

GRACE: Let`s go the defense lawyers. What about it Kessler? She`s changed her story now the third story, this last one being as Joe in Florida points out self-defense. It goes from, it wasn`t me to I stopped by on my way traveling through the state and we spent the afternoon together and then these two armed assailants came in and killed him but not me and I forgot to report it to police to self-defense. Alright Kessler, your turn.

RANDY KESSLER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: We don`t put people to death for changing their story. Casey Anthony didn`t get put to death for changing her story. The facts are going to be what happened that night. There`s no eyewitness. The state has a strong burden. They have got a hard burden to prove. They have got to prove the case beyond the reasonable doubt. Mistake may be going without counseling, you know. Her problem is going to be does she speak or not?

GRACE: Kessler what`s hard about this case? Can you say anything about tot mom?

KESSLER: I can say a lot of things about tot mom.

KESSLER: Yes, I can tell others but tot mom. I mean --

GRACE: What, O.J?

KESSLER: O.J. got off.

GRACE: Where`s the eyewitness?

KESSLER: You don`t think there was more evidence in the O.J. case than this case or Casey Anthony case? More witnesses. More people testifying.

GRACE: Sue Moss, the fact that there are before and after photos of his dead body -- I think there`s more evidence in the case.

SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY AND CHILD ADVOCATE: She`s placed at the scene. Her DNA is in his blood. She apparently is in the area. And what gets me is that she has no feeling. There`s no feeling. There is no remorse. Not even sadness that her ex-boyfriend is dead. There`s nothing.

And then she`s in jail for murder. And everybody on the old cell block is dancing to her jailhouse rock? She`s living her life smiling, laughing, singing, as if nothing is wrong. This is so strange. This woman is really sick. And I think the jury is going to see right through this.

GRACE: You know, to Pat Brown, criminal profiler and author of "the Profiler." Pat, every time she`s asked a question she`s got this -- there she`s putting on makeup. I`m so glad I saw that. Got to get your makeup straight before you are asked questions about your lover`s murder. When she`s singing and they ask her questions she goes oh, it`s great. No I`m not worried. He`s great. She`s not crazy, Pat, in the legal sense.

PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER, AUTHOR, THE PROFILER: No, she`s not but that severely narcissistic personality disorder and she`s kind an almost taken on her ex-boyfriend`s motivational kind of lifestyle. Isn`t she great? She`s smiling all the time. She sees the best in everyone. And she`s very, very positive.

But, here`s what I think is going to happen, that defense will get to the point with that boyfriend is (inaudible). In other words, he was pushy, manipulative motivational guy. He controlled her and eventually she did everything he said. And that`s what drove her to kill him at the very, very end. Don`t you think that will be the defense?

GRACE: OK. Renee Rockwell, how do you battle the physical evidence?

RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well Nancy has she end -- I love the song. Couple of things we know is that she`s beautiful and she can sing. But where is her lawyer? She`s in prison clothes and all of this as she`s talking about is coming in. But Nancy, don`t you think that she`s as crazy as a FOX? She`s talking and talking --

GRACE: She`s not crazy. She`s not legally insane.

ROCKWELL: I know that. But she`s not associated with any of this. All of these is coming in, Nancy. Every bit of it and she`s changed her story so many times. That maybe, and I can`t talk over this, the Christmas tune which I like a lot but maybe somebody in the jury will think I don`t care what anybody thinks this girl is crazy and I`m not going to put her to death.

GRACE: OK. Well, I`m not surprised that you`re not going to put her to death.

ROCKWELL: I`m talking about the jury.

GRACE: It`s lethal injection. So, as she`s singing and granting network interviews behind bars tonight, the state is mixing the cocktail for lethal injection.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Some of the investigators have is damning. How are you going to move past that, get beyond this and prove your innocence?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That`s just -- that`s a defense strategy that we`ll have to work out.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why did you want to speak out?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I feel like since I have been incarcerated it is almost like there`s been a proverbial duct tape over my mouth and I haven`t been able to say anything. There have been a lot of people that have been speaking out and saying things, you know, on their side, and this isn`t a two sided story, this is a multi facetted story. There are many sides to this story. And I just don`t feel like mine has been represented.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Were there problems, the problems in your relationship in those five months start pretty much immediately or three months into it or kind of a misunderstanding?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was pretty much, our relationship, it was just an average, I don`t want to say average, nothing is average with Travis. But any problems that we had, they occurred really right toward the end and that signaled the end of our relationship. It is nothing that we continued to dwell on and try to work out.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What was the one thing that finally you said this is it? Or he said?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was just a breach of trust.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Was the relationship ever violent?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Pass on that question.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The police reports from the mesa police department, it states that some of his family and his friends told the detectives that you had become obsessed with Travis. Is that true?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: His family and friends said that?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: According to the police report.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, I think that I only met his grandmother, so I don`t think that that`s accurate at all for his family to say.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: When asked was she obsessed with him, she said no, not obsessed, let`s see, what would I say -- yes, I don`t know, but not obsessed.

We are taking your calls, to Elaine in Illinois. Hi, Elaine, what`s your question?

ELAINE, CALLER, ILLINOIS: Hi, Nancy, nice to talk to you again.

GRACE: Likewise.

ELAINE: I have two things I wanted to ask about. Did she have life insurance on him?

GRACE: To Vinnie Politian, did she have life insurance on him?

POLITAN: No allegation of life insurance. The motive prosecutors will argue here is fatal attraction, that`s what it`s -- that`s simple.

GRACE: Everyone, we are taking your calls on this case, but now let`s stop and Remember Army Staff Sergeant Patrick Lybert, 28, Wisconsin, killed in Afghanistan. Awarded Silver Star, the country`s third highest medal for combat valor, bronze star, Purple Heart, army commendation, and Eagle Scout, also in 4H.

Grew up showing dairy cattle with his grandparents, Robert and Helen. Loved camping, fishing, canoeing, rugby. Remembered for big blue eyes and a smile that lit up a room. Leaves behind parents Cheryl and David, brothers Stacy and Noah. Patrick Lybert, American Hero.

Thanks to our guests and especially to you for being with us tonight. A special good night from the New York control room. Hi there, guys. There`s Bret, Liz, Rosie, Dana.

Everyone, see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END