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Dr. Drew
Sandusky Waives Preliminary Hearing
Aired December 13, 2011 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: So here we go. Listen to this.
Tonight, there is a Sandusky courtroom shocker. The accused child molester actually waives his right to a preliminary trial. Got to think, does this mean he could be trying possibly a plea deal ahead?
And there`s another horrific story of alleged abuse about children and someone they trusted. This one, though, is bizarre, intense, and it has a twist.
Then a sexual assault victim turned victor. She actually let`s her attacker have it in court as he is marched off to prison.
So let`s get started.
Good evening. It`s quite an interesting day. In a Pennsylvania courtroom as Jerry Sandusky faced his accusers for the first time since he was charged with multiple crimes against children. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Jerry Sandusky just walked into a Pennsylvania courtroom. Some of his accusers could confront him face to face.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Breaking news, Jerry Sandusky stunned a courtroom this morning when he waived his right to a preliminary hearing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jerry Sandusky walked in. You heard a hush over the courtroom.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sandusky did speak briefly when he left the courthouse.
JERRY SANDUSKY, FORMER PENN STATE ASSISTANT COACH: Stay the course (ph) and fight for four quarters. We would like the opportunity to present our side.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At this point we are a step closer to trial.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: Mike Galanos joins us live from Pennsylvania with the latest. Mike, what`s up there?
MIKE GALANOS, HLN HOST: Drew, it was a riveting day in court. The place was packed. Look behind me - an old time courthouse, an old style courtroom, ornate buildings. The media was there talking to each other. The public had filed in, victims` families. And then Jerry Sandusky entered that courtroom and a hush came over the room. You could have heard a pin drop.
And then not long after that, we find out he waived his right to a preliminary hearing. So instead of us listening to accusers tell their story, that didn`t happen. The day flipped and it was Jerry Sandusky`s attorney, Joe Amendola, holding court right behind me. He held court and answered questions for more than an hour with a very simple goal, it was their day to tell their side of the story.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE AMENDOLA, JERRY SANDUSKY`S ATTORNEY: If anyone is naive enough to think for a minute that Tim Curly, Joe Paterno and Gary Schultz and for that matter, Graham Spanier, the university president were told by Mike McQueary that he observed Jerry Sandusky having anal sex with a 10-year-old looking kid in a shower room at Penn State or Penn State property and her response was simply to tell Jerry Sandusky that don`t go in the shower room any more with kids, I suggest you dial 1-800-REALITY. Because that makes absolutely - that makes absolutely no sense.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GALANOS: Not a day for the accusers to tell their side. An incredible turn of events, Joe Amendola taking full advantage. But you wonder what does that do to a victim who is ready to testify? Victim number four said, "I can`t believe they did that to me, but I will still testify to the truth."
Drew, back to you.
PINSKY: Thanks, Mike.
It is a - still a troubling case. We have a man here that has clearly admitted to violating boundaries. He is in the shower without clothes on with kids that are not his own, even if they were - even if they were his kids, this is - well, it`s criminal behavior by any measure.
Now, we`re starting to wonder how far this actually went. There`s some doubt being cast on some of the testimony. Listen, as we talked about on the show many times, the pedophiles don`t all come in one exact flavor. They`re not all the same. There`s, of course, more to be revealed as we begin to scrutinize these witnesses and Sandusky has to answer to some serious allegations and ultimately it will probably be up to a jury.
And now, our other big story tonight, two years ago, Heidi Damon was the victim of brutal sexual assault by a 16-year-old thug. Last week, she confronted him in court. No longer Jane Doe, as she might have been referred to, but openly using her real name and showing her face to the world and her attacker to see. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HEIDI DAMON, CONFRONTED ATTACKER IN COURT (voice-over): I will not address you by your birth name. Here, you`re already ashamed. You can`t even look at me. I will not address you by your birth name, but what I feel you deserve to be called - guilty, guilty, guilty.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Now, Heidi`s attitude and strength struck a nerve with the public as she told this gentleman who had changed her life forever that she was not damaged. Rather, the opposite. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAMON: I am not a victim. I am the victor, the stronger and the winner. You picked the wrong woman on August 19, 2009. I survived.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Interesting that he could not even look at her.
Joining me, Ramani Durvasula, a licensed clinical psychologist; Robin Sax, attorney and former sex crimes prosecutor, she`s the author of "Predators and Child Molesters;" and Angela Rose, founder of PAVE and a victim of sexual assault at age 17.
Ramani, what do you make of that scene in the courtroom there? This is evidently unusual that a victim steps up in that fashion. I`m surprised we don`t see more of that.
RAMANI DURVASULA, PH.D., PSYCHOLOGIST: It`s incredibly unusual. It`s incredibly brave. Rape is very stigmatized in our society. These women carried so much unwarranted shame, and they carry it with them their entire lives. So many of them, almost half of them also have post traumatic stress disorder.
And a key element there is to avoid - avoid the feelings, avoid anything that reminds them of that situation. What`s going to remind them more than the person who perpetrated this?
PINSKY: So in other words if they would have to go to the courtroom, revivify the experience, they have all of these overwhelming emotions that they just don`t want to have.
Robin Sax, has that been your experience when you prosecute in these kinds of cases?
ROBIN SAX, FORMER SEX CRIMES PROSECUTOR: The first question that always happens from a victim`s mouth is am I going to have to come to court and testify? And that is always a huge amount of - it causes a huge amount of fear for victims.
But ultimately when victims do come to court, they are - they find that it`s very cathartic and very empowering. It`s not necessarily unusual for a victim to make a victim impact statement in a courtroom, as what has happened here, but what was unusual was that she actually confronted the abuser himself. She didn`t do it through the judge. She didn`t do it to the court, talking about the monetary and the physical and the financial burdens and all those burdens. She went right to the core, and that what was unusual.
PINSKY: Robin, would you encourage a victim that you were, say, prosecuting on behalf of, would you encourage them to do something like this?
SAX: Oh, gosh, yes. Absolutely. I mean, to be able to go to court and confront your abuser, you go from victim to survivor. And just like Angela Rose who I know you`re going to talk to next, she goes out there and tells her story.
And the more people who will hear the story realize, listen, I have nothing to be ashamed of as a victim. It is you the perpetrator who has everything to be ashamed of. And it is an opportunity to get that power back, the power that was taken away from them on the night of the crime.
PINSKY: And Robin, I am going to talk to Angela in just a second. But this is something that makes me crazy, which is why women don`t step up on their own behalf more often. And what do you think that is that switch that there was somebody like Angela and there is somebody like this Heidi to do this? What do other women need to do to make the switch?
SAX: I mean, I think some of this has to do with, you know, the nature of the crime, the support they had afterwards. I mean, some women go through this and they - they do not have a support network to turn to. When they have supportive people around them in terms of their legal team, in terms of mental health, in terms of most importantly their family.
PINSKY: And I want to say one other thing, too, and this is the unfortunate reality about victims is often they were victimized at a younger age first, and so this is a re-traumitization. That`s why they get PTSD. And the uncanny thing about these victimizers is they can sense the victims. They find them, not that it is the victim`s fault, but they sniff them out somehow.
Angela, I am going to go to you. The question is, was Heidi covering up her true feelings when she addressed her attacker? Was this some sort of compensation? And I want to know what was really going through your mind, Angela, when you heard her address this gentleman in court.
But I`m not going to let you speak, OK? OK. Good. After the break, we`re going to hear from you.
And later, an alleged sex scandal that has a lot of people scathing - scratching their heads and scathing mad, including me. Hang around.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAMON: Here, you`re already ashamed. You can`t even look at me. I will not address you by your birth name, but what I feel you deserve to be called - guilty, guilty, guilty.
(on camera): Hopefully this will help someone get strength and be able to go to the authorities if they`re in a bad position or if they were attacked and they know who their attacker was, to go to the police and come forward and talk about it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: Talking about the incredible Heidi Damon who confronted her attacker in court last week. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAMON: Survived. You have simply victimized yourself. I will be free for the rest of my life. You will be a prisoner for the rest of yours.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: The reticence of the attacker there was obvious. But then if you saw the shame on the attorney`s face, which I find fascinating.
Heidi told her attacker, quote, "My name is Heidi Elizabeth Damon. I have a name. I have a name that will go on forever. You have a name, `sex offender, attempted murderer.` Nice to put you away."
The attacker pleaded out. He`s behind bars for 15 years. The judge said if it were up to him, he would receive a life sentence.
Now, Angela Rose, you were attacked when you were 17. I promised the question what was going through your mind when you heard Heidi take on her attacker in court. Let us know. This is your chance.
ANGELA ROSE, SEXUAL ASSAULT VICTIM: I was so inspired to hear her come and talk about an issue that is often so silent, and the importance of shattering the silence of sexual violence because it is going to inspire and empower other victims to come forward, to no longer be a Jane Doe or even a John Doe that there is an opportunity for people to speak out and to heal.
PINSKY: Angela, tell me about your organization. Is this - are you finding traction in getting young women to come forward?
ROSE: Absolutely. Especially now with everything being so much in the media`s eye -
PINSKY: Yes.
ROSE: -- of these issues of sexual abuse -
PINSKY: Right.
ROSE: -- that I do feel like people are feeling more comfortable to come forward. But unfortunately we still live in a very victim-blaming society. And so that`s something that we`re really trying to change.
PINSKY: And now you heard me talk a few minutes ago before the break about the fact that people who were victimized in childhood often get re- victimized in adolescence and young adulthood. How do we help people understand that pattern without blaming the victim?
ROSE: Well, there`s such a cycle of violence, as you know. I think it`s really important to also empower the people around the victims to know how to support them. Studies show that the first person that a survivor tells, if they react well, that can greatly impact the healing process.
PINSKY: I`m so glad you brought that up. Dr. Ramani, the fact is, though, many times the people close to the victim either blame the victim or blame themselves or both.
DURVASULA: Yes. And they themselves take on the shame. They`ll take on - it`ll go to a family member. The family member will think this is bringing shame on the family. They will say, what were you doing at the time?
PINSKY: Why did you put yourself in that position?
DURVASULA: Yes.
PINSKY: It`s the common thing. Why did you wear those clothing?
Robin, do you encounter that kind of stuff often in the people you represent?
SAX: I caught - I capture lots of things. And one of the things I am going to call you out on, Dr. Drew -
PINSKY: Please.
SAX: -- you referred to this guy as a gentleman three times in a row. And I was like jumping out of my chair. This guy is not a gentleman. This guy is a disgusting pig. He`s a sex offender. And as long as we look at people like that as gentlemen, people`s impressions are constantly going to always look to judge the victim.
So I think that we have to change our language and we have to call people who they are, what they are. Victims turn into survivors and perps that are pigs are called such.
PINSKY: Well, I was using a little irony. I apologize if it wasn`t obvious. But we have - we have a saying here in the studio. My staff manager (INAUDIBLE) called jerk pervert. And yours is - and yours is - what was it, pigs? What kind of pigs?
SAX: Perp pigs.
PINSKY: Perp pigs. OK. Perp pigs. I`m writing that down. The perp pigs and the jerk perverts. I`ll substitute that for gentleman, no problem.
SAX: That`s not a problem. But I`ll tell you one thing, as a prosecutor, what I`m doing with Heidi`s speech; I`m printing that speech out. I`m giving it to every victim out there who says what do I write? What do I say? And I would use that as a prosecutor. I`m not prosecuting any more, but I certainly would if I was there, to have victims get the words together, because there is an issue with words and just figuring out what the right words are to say sometimes are so very difficult for victims, and Heidi gives victims that opportunity.
PINSKY: And all of you guys, Angela, I guess I`ll throw this your direction since you have an organization to empower victims, to me as much as anything, it seems as though a woman`s issue, a women`s issue, you know, to generally empower women to speak up when they`ve been - first of all, to teach them how to set boundaries and how to say no, and get themselves out of the situation, and then how to step up when something has gone wrong. Isn`t that what you`re about?
ROSE: As an organization, we feel that it is both the opportunity for men and women to come together to mutually be a part of the solution. And PAVE is on college campuses across the country, empowering - like I said, both men and women to work together to create safer campuses, to create safer environments and allow people the opportunity to talk about this without shame and without fear.
PINSKY: And, again, as you said, the cycle of violence, Angela, Dr. Durvasula, I`m going to go to you on this, so often - and this - I keep coming back to this because it is what I`m challenged and I know you are in clinical work all the time, which is often times mom was sexually abused, brings around a perpetrator. Kid gets sexually abused. Then they get victimized later in life. I mean, this is transgenerational patterns that we have got to break.
And if - am I overstating it to say that it is at the core of the mental health problems of our times?
DURVASULA: Absolutely. Trauma is the core of the mental health problems of our times. I mean, it leads to substance abuse, to other mental illnesses, to poor decision making, to personality pathology. It really is a root cause. It is a cycle.
And people who have been victimized, now we have to think about this in terms of they`re the people at risk, they do need intervention. We need to build this into our schools, into our clinics, into our pediatrician offices. We need to identify them and we need to give them the support they need so they can make better decisions across their life span.
PINSKY: And Angela, out to you. You actually you were a victim, is that correct?
ROSE: Yes.
PINSKY: You were victimized. I guess, you never - I mean, again, this language we have to like all get used to. I don`t like calling anybody a victim because - but you were the object of a perpetrator, a pig perpetrator as Robin would say.
ROSE: Yes.
PINSKY: And how did you - what was your experience and how did you get through it and how did you turn this around? Because sometimes just telling your story can be so powerful in helping other people turn theirs around.
ROSE: Absolutely. I was 17 in broad daylight, as with in Heidi`s case, broad daylight, I was kidnapped from a shopping mall and sexually assaulted by a man who is on parole for murder. And when I came out and talked about what happened to me, I was amazed at how widespread these crimes were.
Everybody around me I felt like, old high school teachers, friends of my family, so many people had been victimized by sexual abuse, but overwhelmingly it was somebody that they knew and they trusted, and it`s very difficult to talk about something like that when it`s somebody that`s close to you.
So we as an organization at PAVE are really working to shatter that silence of sexual violence. Because when you keep it inside and it festers, it comes out long term with, as you know, the eating disorders, the self mutilation, depression. But when you talk about it, you release it and you`re able to be on a better fast track to healing that trauma.
PINSKY: And Robin, let me go out to you. You know, you and I have talked about things like this over the years many times. Where do we need to take this conversation? I mean, we`re having this conversation because it`s in the news all of a sudden. Those of us that are clinicians, you in the courtroom, I`m certain this is not going to go away for us, it`s around all the time.
How do we keep this top of mind? Certainly it isn`t something the presidential candidates are talking about, you know what I`m saying? And yet it is at the core of so much that`s gone wrong in our culture. How do we keep this conversation going?
SAX: Well, thankfully there is a silver lining of the Sandusky case, because I think that case is going to go on for a long time, so thankfully it will keep that case and the conversation alive. And people like Angela who encourage people to tell their stories, and it`s so very important what Angela brings up is here we talk about Angela`s case, as well as Heidi`s case, which are both stranger rape cases. That is the rarity.
PINSKY: Yes.
SAX: That is really 87 to 92 percent depending on what statistics you believe are sexual assault are between someone whom the victim and perpetrator who may know each other, they know each other. There`s a relationship. There`s a relationship of trust, whether it`s a coach, a rabbi, a priest, a parent, a stepparent, whatever it is, that`s where it is.
And what people need to recognize is that there has to be a place where you can have those conversations and have safe telling people to talk to. A lot of people train their children to come to me, come to your mom if something happened. But lots of kids don`t like going to their mom. We have to teach our kids to keep telling somebody and tell somebody does something.
PINSKY: Not only that the perpetrators are very skilled at terrorizing and manipulating these kids.
But Angela Rose, keep up that great work. Robin, of course, we`ll hear from you soon. You`re back with us. And Dr. Ramani, thank you as always.
And up next, your reaction to Heidi`s powerful story.
And later, disgusting and deviant behavior alleged to have been committed. This like I said, this is the kind of story I`ll tell you about later where there`s no question about what`s going on here, allegedly committed by a prominent sports official. He`s accused of some pretty awful stuff, and we`re going to get into it. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAMON: Hopefully this will help someone get strength and be able to go to the authorities if they`re in a bad position or if they were attacked and they know who their attacker was, to go to the police and come forward and talk about it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That is Heidi Damon, just after she had really shouted down in court the man who had sexually assaulted her. She shared her message with other victims, saying she has nothing to be ashamed of.
And the conversation we have been having about the story has generated a bit of questions and comments. So let`s go to the phones. We`ve got Carol in Georgia. Go ahead.
CAROL, MORROW, GEORGIA (via telephone): Hi, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Hi, Carol.
CAROL: I just wanted to say that Heidi Damon did what most women cannot do in that situation. She let him know that even though he tried, he did not succeed in breaking her down.
PINSKY: Right.
CAROL: Criminals want to know that they ruined somebody. It`s like bullying a thousand times magnified.
PINSKY: Right.
CAROL: When they figure out it didn`t work, it hurts their ego.
PINSKY: Well, and you saw the - should we call a reticence on the guy`s face. I mean, it makes you that much angrier to see his reaction, though I did see a little bit of shame on the attorney who represented him, which I found rather fascinating.
But, yes, hats off to Heidi for - for doing something that more women need to do, and I don`t want to - again, I don`t want to blame women for not doing it, but I think we need to really take a page from her book and do more of this.
Donald in North Carolina, go ahead.
DONALD, CHERRYVILLE, NORTH CAROLINA (via telephone): Hey, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Hey, Donald.
DONALD: Just a quick comment. I think it was a proud moment for this great, young lady.
PINSKY: Yes.
DONALD: And it really hits this punk perp right in the gut.
PINSKY: I hope it did.
DONALD: (INAUDIBLE) and hopefully he`s instilled for the next 15 years.
PINSKY: Hopefully. I - you know, having dealt with people who think the way this perpetrator or - what did Robin call him, perp pig or jerk pervert - what should we call this - by a gentleman, guy, I was being ironic, so this gentleman is a pig pervert, let`s be clear about it. Jerk pervert, my stage manager prefers that. Oh, god.
And these guys, these people when they`re in their criminal mind often don`t feel these things. They don`t care. And that`s what`s so disgusting about this whole thing.
On Facebook, Sam writes, "I`m curious to know if you often see victims of sexual assault turn to drugs or alcohol to control their symptoms." And that is absolutely the case. In fact, something I say all the time, you maybe heard me say it on the show before, which is if someone has serious enough addiction that they need to see me, other words bad addiction, there`s essentially 100 percent probability of childhood trauma with sexual abuse probably being I`d say the most common.
Jennifer on Facebook, "It didn`t happen in Heidi Damon`s case, but why do most women - some women who are victims of rape or attempted rape think it is their fault? It makes no sense."
And, yes, it makes no sense but that is sort of how we are constructed. Women blame themselves. Then the worst thing of all, the thing that breaks my heart is the people close to them will sometimes blame them as well. What were you doing there? Why did you dress like that? Obviously they didn`t - this isn`t something that they brought on.
Finally, Diane writes, "In Heidi`s case it was a stranger assault opposed to an acquaintance assault. I think it`s important to point out that sexual assaults are much more common by people you know." And that is something we did bring up in the section with Robin and Dr. Durvasula and that is indeed the case.
Next, another disgusting story of alleged child sex abuse, and this is one you`ve got to buckle in for. A man who claims he was victimized by a powerful adult in his life actually becomes physically ill while talking about it.
Remember, you can go to HLNTV.com to check out our, Must See, Must Share stories, and find out what made today`s HLN`s Top 10. So stay with us. We will be back and all.
Now, be careful, it`s a tough story with a lot of tough content. But I don`t want you to miss it. So stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY (voice-over): Coming up, after almost nine years of war, American troops are coming home from Iraq. President Obama says they are leaving with their heads held high.
* (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (voice-over): Coming up, after almost nine years of war, American troops are coming home from Iraq. President Obama says they are leaving with their heads held high. What awaits them stateside? HLN special homecoming coverage continues tonight.
But first, there`s yet another child sex abuse scandal being reported, this one with a twist. The man being accused of some terrible things, apparently, collected hair and underwear from his alleged victim. What`s going on here?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (on-camera): Welcome back. The Amateur Athletic Union, also known as the AAU, is investigating claims that its former CEO abused young boys. The allegations against Robert Dodd sound very familiar. Here is Ralph West, who says he was sexually abused by Dodd two decades ago. He spoke to ESPN`s "Outside the Lines." Watch this and hold on tight.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RALPH WEST, ALLEGED VICTIM: I was dead asleep, and I don`t remember anything but waking up and he has this -- he`s trying to put his hand in my boxer shorts, and I jumped up straight out of the bed, and he`s not there, but he`s laying on the floor next to me down by the bed. He had a key.
He always, somehow, had a key to whatever room I was in, because that was his MO was coming in in the middle of the night when you`re asleep and trying to assault you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Now, some warning for parents at home. The details of this story are really quite graphic. So, I hope you`ll stay tuned. It`s an important conversation.
Joining us, Dr. Ramani Durvasula, clinical psychologist. She`s back in the studio with me. John Salley joins me, former NBA champion, and Tom Farrey, ESPN "Outside the Lines" reporter and author of the book "Game On." He actually broke the story. Tom, how did you learn about this?
TOM FARREY, REPORTER, ESPN`S "OUTSIDE THE LINES": When the Penn State scandal happened, Ralph West who you just heard from said, you know what, that was me. You know, I haven`t talked to anybody about this. I need to.
I Googled Bobby Dodd, came across an excerpt from my book, wrote an e- mail, and so, in the middle of the Penn State chaos of, you know, 16, 18 hour work days, I get this e-mail saying oh, my God, I have to jump on this. So, my boss here at ESPN "Outside the Lines" said, all right, you`re off Penn State, go do this one.
PINSKY: And Tom, did you have concerns given your previous investigation to the AAU? Did you kind of smell something going on?
FARREY: You know, I looked at this organization pretty hard a few years ago, and I found a lot of financial irregularities, political abuse, a lot of loose cash flows where you couldn`t quite figure out who was receiving what kind of money. But I never heard anything about pedophilia. I met, you know, I had a long conversation with Bobby Dodd at one of these AAU tournaments here there are a whole bunch of kids around him who are working the tournament, itself.
But nobody said to me at that time that, hey, his behavior is of in this kind of way. I mean, I knew the guy, I just didn`t have a good feeling about him, but I never thought it would be, you know, pedophilia.
PINSKY: And we`re going to learn more about the details in just a second. But first, I want to talk to John Salley about the AAU. Did you come up through that organization?
JOHN SALLEY, FORMER NBA CHAMPION: In a way. My nephew plays in AAU now.
PINSKY: A lot of people --
SALLEY: I played with guys in New York and we played against these AAU guys. I tell you, I played in the 1980s and 1990s. I`ve been going around. I haven`t seen or played in any of that.
PINSKY: So, we don`t really want to vilify the organization, because it helped a lot of kids. It brought up a lot of careers. It just got a bad seed amongst it, we`re saying here.
SALLEY: We seem to have a bad seed.
PINSKY: We seem to. It was alleged. I want you all to listen to what this gentleman had to say, Ralph West, on ESPN`s "Outside The Line." Here he is talking about the first time Robert Dodd tried to abuse him. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WEST: We were painting a building. He is horseplaying, and you know, puts the roller on me and paints, and he`s like, you know, you`re going to have to shower before you go home. I go in, and I, you know, and I start washing myself off and I look in the, you know, behind me and he`s standing there. I was uncomfortable, you know, especially when he came and touched me like oh, you know, you have to -- you got to get the paint off your back.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Now, I want to go right to the next clip here, because I want you to get a feel for how much evidence there is here, and it`s tough to watch. But here now again is Ralph West. This is during his interview with Tom who we got here with us saying that this is so emotionally intense, the story, and he tells quite a story, quite a lot of detail about having these voyeuristic episodes and overt sexual abuse, and then, this is what happened. Watch this from ESPN.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WEST: The low moment is still, you know, the knowledge, I mean, since I`ve come out and talk to people, I feel like I`m going to be sick, dude. I can`t continue. I can`t continue, man. Oh. I really feel like I`m going to have a -- feel like I`m going to have an anxiety attack.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Dr. Ramani, not that unusual for somebody to have a very powerful reaction when they are, for the first time, as he tells us coming forward with something incredibly shaming, powerful, overwhelming.
RAMANI DURVASULA, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Absolutely not unusual. I mean, probably full level of full blown panic attack that he was having to share this traumatic event that occurred to him where he felt very out of control. He described it in detail. He`s revisiting this imagery for the first time, sharing it publicly. It is traumatic, and that reaction is not unusual.
PINSKY: Tom, I think what a lot of people wonder is why now, and I`m ask John the same question. Why do you think Ralph came forward now, any ideas?
FARREY: Jerry Sandusky. You know, this is turning into a bit of a Catholic Church kind of story here in sports. What you have is people who have been abused and never brought it forth, never really felt like they had a venue to bring it forth are doing so. You saw it in the Syracuse case. We`ve seen it now in this case.
You saw it with the Penn State fallout where more victims are coming forward. You know, this has been in sports for a long time now, but the Penn State thing just really made it raw. It brought it all back. And so, people are coming forth. And, we`re trying to report their stories as responsibly as possible.
PINSKY: John, do you have any doubt of what he`s talking about?
SALLEY: I don`t have any doubt about what he`s talking about. And I am telling you, there was a movie with Leonardo DiCaprio, I think it was called "Basketball Diaries," when the coach came on to, I think it was Mark Wahlberg. That happened in that movie. So, it`s not like it`s out of nowhere this happens.
And like he said, it happened because of Sandusky, but the real deal is just like the Catholic Church. It`s like waves that this happens in, and people start opening up to it.
PINSKY: And I think we talked before the commercial break, asking why are people so surprised about this? This is so common. Why does it take this wave in order to raise awareness about something that is common and parents need to be aware of, Dr. Durvasula?
DURVASULA: We come back to issues of shame and stigma. When we talk about trauma, we talk about shame --
PINSKY: And intergenerational.
DURVASULA: Intergenerational. And children are afraid of embarrassing and angering parents, and also, afraid they`ll be called liars. They`re terrified. They`re going up against adults. Adults who are victimizing them. That`s a hell of a tall order for a kid.
PINSKY: And often, John, let`s say it`s a coach. They have a way of -- it will cost them something if they don`t go along with what this guy -- I mean, their dreams are all invested in these coaches, right?
SALLEY: This is a situation where this guy can get you to the next level.
PINSKY: Yes.
SALLEY: And you play for this team, this happens. This team is number one in this part of the country. You know, they go in and they say things, then they don`t want to feel lesser than and they don`t put themselves in a position where they come back and they said, well, you`re on this side now. So, a lot of people shut their mouth.
PINSKY: Now, the AAU confirms that it is investigating all the claims against Dodd. The victims say they never went to police. Dodd did not respond to ESPN`s request for a statement. The stuff this guy was into was elaborate. I mean, he would have, you know, cameras and viewing these kids and collected their underwear and hair, I mean, really bizarre stuff. So, I imagine there`s much more to be told here.
FARREY: Yes, there really is. I mean, this story is not ending. You know, the Memphis police held a press conference today. They`re trying to figure out what to do with it. They spoke with Ralph West this afternoon for the first time. They spoke with the other victim in our story for the first time. I think Ralph West is likely to file a criminal complaint.
Now, how do you prove something that happened 30 years ago? These guys didn`t talk to us. I don`t believe because they`re looking to win money in a civil suit or even necessarily prosecute this guy, but you know, I think Ralph West is considering filing the complaint because that`s the only way to kind of move this thing forward.
So, I think there are a lot of angles that are -- we`re going to find that -- the AAU needs to respond to this thing as well. You have to remember, this is an organization that`s been around more than 100 years. It is a significant player in the basketball scene and in youth sports, in general. And it`s an organization that has resisted mandatory background checks on coaches.
There`s almost no real code of conduct for appropriate relations between coaches and kids. And you know, trust in this organization has been undermined dramatically. And I think there are going to be a lot of people out there who want to know that these protections are in place before they place their kids in these programs. I think that`s going to be another angle to follow.
PINSKY: Thank you, Tom. Thank you, John. You, guys, stay with me. And Dr. Durvasula, thank you for joining us.
Now, what did the AAU know and did hey try to cover up the story? We`ll try to get some answers when we come back.
And later, our U.S. troops are coming home from Iraq. What will they be facing stateside? Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: Welcome back. The Amateur Athletic Union, also known as the AAU, has fired its former leader, Robert Dodd, after two men came forward accusing him of molesting them. Are there other alleged victims? Listen to this from ESPN`s "Outside the Lines."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He would say, you know, he knew somebody that wanted to perform oral sex on me, but there was stipulations that I had to go by, and he`d pay me a thousand dollars if I did. I had to be blindfolded and my hands bound behind my back and I couldn`t move or touch, you know, whoever was doing it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Now, the AAU knew about these allegations before the story broke. Did they somehow try to cover them up? Back to my guests. Criminal defense attorney, Mark Eiglarsh, NBA star, John Salley, and ESPN`s "Outside the Lines" reporter who broke the story, Tom Farrey. Tom, what did you make of the AAU`s initial reaction?
FARREY: Well, they weren`t quite -- they couldn`t get their story straight at first. You know, we hit them with this -- we let them that we knew about these allegations on Thursday about noon. About 6:00 p.m., we get a note from Bobby Dodd`s secretary, you know, remember, he was still listed as president and CEO of the organization saying that he has retired, completely new, and he`s retired for health reasons.
That he has cancer, didn`t know that at all. I called the first vice president, basically, the number two guy in the organization and ask him if that`s true, he says, well, yes, he has retired for health reasons, and I know nothing about sexual abuse allegations. Well, it turns out that wasn`t true.
There was a meeting on November 14th where all the officers came together in Orlando and discussed these allegations that had flowed into the office and had been turned over to the attorney for the AAU. They hired a private investigator. So, from the AAU`s perspective, they handled things properly.
You know, they got word of these allegations. They began to investigate down, but they didn`t announce it publicly. The private investigator never followed up with the victims. I mean, there`s no reason you couldn`t, you know, write an e-mail back to the person that wrote it to you.
PINSKY: Yes. It seemed like they were moving very slowly and reluctantly. Now, victim number two called Robert Dodd when the Syracuse story broke to confront him. Listen to his account of the conversation, again, on ESPN`s "Outside the Lines."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I said, do you know why I`m calling you? He said, I probably have a good idea. And I said, I bet you do. You`re a sick son of (EXPLETIVE DELETED). I`m basically going to ask you one time, and I want to know the truth. Did you drill me that night and you provided me with, you know, alcohol?
And his answer was, basically, it wasn`t yes, it wasn`t no. It was a, well, if I did, I don`t remember. Only thing he really said to me was, you know, I`m sorry.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Mark, Dodd doesn`t say that much, but he, of course, doesn`t deny it. What do you make of this?
MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, the fact that he doesn`t deny it seems to suggest that, perhaps, there`s some truth to both of what the victims are alleging. And the sad thing is, he`ll probably never see the inside of a jail cell. I looked at the statutes in Tennessee. I don`t see any way that the statute of limitations doesn`t bar a criminal prosecution for this.
PINSKY: And Mark, this story is so heavy. I have to lighten up for a second. Show me Mark`s picture again. Congratulations. You finally have a night scene behind you. I`m tired of looking at Miami daytime behind you.
(LAUGHTER)
EIGLARSH: Yes.
PINSKY: It`s a facsimile the time of day we broadcast. Now --
EIGLARSH: Yes.
PINSKY: -- this story is so intense, I had to sort of break the mood here a bit, but this next --
EIGLARSH: Fair enough. Your show go right ahead (ph).
PINSKY: Thank you, Mark, I appreciate your endorsement. But, this next piece is really the heaviest of all. Ralph West on the ESPN "Outside the Lines," he talks about what he found in Robert Dodd`s filing cabinet.
And again, I also want to tell you not only did he find all this stuff, but he also discovered that Robert Dodd had broken into his attic and was filming him and had a mattress up there, and it was just crazy stuff, that he was stealing his underwear, and he found kids` underwear with their name and date on it and as well as blonde kids` hair, but here`s what he found in his filing cabinet.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WEST: There`s a large amount of pornography, like boy pornography in there. There`s several bags full of boys` underwear with the name and date written inside the waistband, and there was a large manila envelope full of human hair.
FARREY: The hair of how many boys would you guess?
WEST: A dozen, maybe, maybe more. There`s a lot of blonde hair. He likes blonde headed boys.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: John Salley, you know, the Sandusky case is much less obvious than this one. I mean, this is like, you hear it and it`s like oh, my God, what is amongst us here. How should parents or kids that are in these programs deal with all this information? Do we just kind of go on, a winning coach is helping us win and just be careful, every man for themselves?
SALLEY: I think that`s what`s going to happen. I remember, literally -- my daughter`s play. I played. No one has ever done a background check. The background check is, what was your record last year?
(CROSSTALK)
SALLEY: Did you win? What did you get in state, no matter how it is, because, you know, coach is a coach. We watch the bad news bears. I do everything according to movies, you know what I`m saying, and you got that kind of coach. And, you just don`t think about that maybe your kid is going to be in a situation of a sexual -- you`re not thinking that way.
You`re thinking, this coach is going to teach fundamentals, and my kid is going to be a better athlete and go get a scholarship.
PINSKY: Now, before I ask Mark Eiglarsh the question, how is it possible that they don`t have these background checks? I want to remind people that AAU did confirm that it is investigating the claims against Dodd. The victims say they never went to the police, evidently, did not.
Dodd did not respond to ESPN`s request for statement. Mark, what about these lack of background checks? Is that going to change? Is there any sort of legal or legislative energy to move things in that direction or are things just going to stay the way they are?
EIGLARSH: Well, let`s talk about it. A background check can only reveal whether someone has ever been arrested before for something like this, assuming they haven`t had it sealed or expunged. So, there`s no background check to determine whether somebody is a creep, whether they look at my nine-year-olds, whether they think somehow, ooh la la, you don`t know.
You don`t know, and that`s the harm, which is why I say education is the key. Talk to the children. Let them know this is what abuse is. This is what the creep may say to you to get you not to report it, and here`s how you can report it. It`s OK. Come forward.
PINSKY: And I still want to remind everyone to be thinking about what it is about organizations where there`s people in authority, involving our kids, John, I don`t have time to get into this tonight, but, why don`t people in authority know the reporting requirements that social workers and doctors and educators have, the people in administrative roles, how did they get led -- how did they miss that memo?
They`re the ones really in authority and they are the ones that are organizing these organizations. How did they miss the memo about reporting? They should be airlifting themselves to the police station, into department social services, child protective agencies. You have an absolute moral, legal, ethical obligation to report when there`s a suspicion of anything going on.
How this doesn`t happen on college campuses, doesn`t happen in basketball teams, doesn`t happen in so many places where the kids -- doesn`t happen in the Catholic Church. Unconscionable.
Thank you Mark. Thank you, Tom and John.
Next, veterans of the Iraq war talk about transitioning from military to civilian life. It is not easy. HLN spotlight on homecoming continues after this. stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, baby!
UNIDENTIFIED KID: Mommy!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: HLN`s special homecoming coverage continues tonight as we salute American troops ending their tour of duty in Iraq. All 40,000 will be home by the end of this year. Now, how do they feel about their deployment? Five veterans who served in Iraq spoke with us about their struggles and sacrifices, and even offered a little advice to those returning home. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOSH AGUILAR, IRAQ WAR VETERAN: I feel that as long as I gave somebody else the opportunity to have the same democracy, the same freedom, the same hopes and dreams that we can have every day, maybe some of those things that I did and some of the sacrifices that my friends made, were worth a little bit of something.
MATT HOWARD, IRAQ WAR VETERAN: Getting out of the military took me at least a year to try to negotiate being a civilian again. I was very definitely ready to end my five year enlistment, but when I got out, I didn`t anticipate the feeling of loss, especially in terms of really strong ties and bonds between me and the guys that I served with.
SARAH OLDRIDGE, IRAQ WAR VETERAN: You build those bonds, they don`t come back, you know that someone is dead. And, it`s hard to be happy about that, but at the same time, I was happy that it wasn`t me.
JESSI TSENG, IRAQ WAR VETERAN: I struggled with seeing my friends contemplate suicide, seeing them deal with alcohol abuse, drug abuse, homelessness. That was the most difficult thing for me to see. I witness them save someone`s life in Iraq, and they can`t save their own any more. It hurt me.
RAMSEY RAHER, IRAQ WAR VETERAN: It was small arms contact, mortar attacks, RPG attacks, indirect fire on bases. I mean, you`re constantly dealing with a barrage of ammunitions. Some of those events still haunt me. My advice, just listen to the command. They do a good job of giving mandatory briefings that deal with subjects such as suicide, domestic abuse, alcohol abuse, and don`t diminish the good work that you did.
TSENG: I always think about everyone that we lost in Iraq. And, I live my life to fulfill what they could have done in the future, but they can`t now.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: Very honest, candid interviews from five veterans on the toll of war. And you know, it`s not as though this is the first time these lessons are being learned in the school of war. Many veterans, returning service members will, of course, suffer post-traumatic stress disorder. And I want to remind you that there are three types of symptoms.
People will hear this term, PTSD, all the time, but what happens is, they`re re-experiencing -- they`re constantly re-experiencing the traumatic event. They avoid reminders of the trauma. They have increased levels of anxiety, panic, and emotional arousal. They`re easily evoked. They have sleep disturbances.
Now, according to thehealmyptsd website, in the past year, the number of diagnosed cases in the military has jumped 50 percent. And 20 percent of the soldiers deployed in the past six years have PTSD. That is over 300,000. Now, the military has done a really systemic and careful job to attempt to address this, but it`s a massive problem.
Now, although, symptoms most commonly develop in the hour or days following a traumatic event, then it`s called acute stress disorder, but it can last weeks, months, or even last years, then it`s the posttraumatic stress disorder. We`ll be talking more about PTSD tomorrow, but tonight, that about does it for us. I want to tell you, thanks for watching, and I`ll see you next time.
END
