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Nancy Grace
Karen Swift`s Body Moved, Cops Say
Aired December 14, 2011 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, live, Tennessee. Upscale Memphis-area neighborhood reeling when a beautiful young mom of four vanishes without a trace. Mommy picks up a 9-year-old girl from a sleepover, 1:45 AM. Mommy and her girl go to sleep together, same bed. Next morning, the 9-year-old wakes up, Mommy gone, her white Nissan SUV abandoned, flat tire, quarter of a mile from home.
Mommy in the middle of an acrimonious divorce, a real life "War of the Roses" with Daddy living in a separate part of the house mid-divorce.
Bombshell tonight. In the last hours, after a female body discovered near a local graveyard, stunning details emerge. Young mom of four Karen Swift`s body spotted amidst overturned tombstones, her body parts jutting out from thick kudzu vines. New even tonight shows this was not the scene of the murder, just the dumping ground.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The body is Karen Swift.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The body was discovered along this rural road.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Authorities find a body near a cemetery.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m in total shock.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Whoever done it is sick.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Please let us know.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They wait and wonder whether or not the case of Karen Swift might be quickly coming to a close.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Swift`s body was found in this wooded area located just two to three miles from her home.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... Swift`s body was found so close to her home, especially since searchers combed the area thoroughly.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The body was discovered in some high weeds, discovered by I believe a worker there at the cemetery, who called the cops. It`s just a body that was dumped at this location.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: As we go to air, after a female body discovered near a local graveyard, stunning details emerge tonight. Young mom of four Karen Swift`s body spotted amidst overturned tombstone, her body parts jutting out from thick kudzu vines. New evidence shows this was not the scene of the murder, this was just a dumping ground.
We are taking your calls. Straight out to Joe Gomez, KTRH. Joe, her body parts sticking out from kudzu vines? Explain.
JOE GOMEZ, KTRH: Nancy, this is very disturbing! Apparently, her body was found by a cemetery caretaker. It was in an advanced decomposition state (INAUDIBLE) and she had (INAUDIBLE) some sort of injuries. And it was hidden underneath some overgrowth, some sort of vegetation, Nancy, suggesting that somebody -- somebody -- must have gone out of their way to hide this beautiful, beautiful mother of four who was missing for over a month! Very disturbing details, Nancy.
GRACE: Also with us, Nicole Partin, investigative reporter. Nicole, the caretaker turns out to be the pastor, who was there checking out some overturned tombstones at his own church. Apparently, from what the eyewitness admits, they could see trauma injuries to the body.
And another thing, Nicole Partin, is that this address, Harness Road - - everything, according to the sheriff, is developing around Harness Road. You`ve got the mom living with the dad mid-divorce just off Harness Road. You`ve got the body a few feet off Harness Road. And you`ve got the car about a quarter of a mile away, at the tip of Harness Road. What about it, Nicole?
NICOLE PARTIN, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER (via telephone): Good evening, Nancy. No longer a missing person case, authorities are calling this a full-blown murder investigation, this after Karen Swift`s body is recovered two miles from her home, a little over two miles from her abandoned car. And now authorities are saying we have these apparent visible injuries to the body. That along with the location where the body is dumped is enough for them to call this a homicide.
GRACE: Also with us tonight and taking your calls, a very dear friend of the young mom of four Karen Swift pictured here.
As Nicole Partin said, no longer a missing person`s case, this is a homicide. An eyewitness stumbles on the body of the young mom of four, body parts jutting out, as it was described to us, from between thick weeds, kudzu vines, there at Bledsoe Cemetery. Overturned tombstones turned out to be the burial ground for this mom. And now forensic evidence suggests this is not where the murder occurred, this was merely used as a dumping ground.
Lisa is with us, a friend of Karen`s. Lisa, thank you for being with us.
"LISA," FRIEND OF KAREN SWIFT (via telephone): (INAUDIBLE) Nancy.
GRACE: Lisa, I know that the community is stunned. I know also that you are familiar with this area. How far away was this cemetery, this graveyard, from Karen`s home?
"LISA": Well, the cemetery is about three miles away from our home. This is not a very big cemetery. It`s, like -- it`s got very old tombstones there, more than likely. I mean, they`re -- they`re -- it`s not used anymore, I don`t believe.
But it`s kind of off the beaten path. If you go up to the road where the cemetery is located, it`s, like, a dead end. And Karen was found on the left side, kind of off towards all of the, you know, thickets. And the cemetery would be across a little dirt path. So she was -- if you`re facing the cemetery, she would have been on the left and the cemetery is on your right.
GRACE: You know, another thing you just brought to mind, Lisa -- with us and taking your calls, a very dear friend ever Karen Swift`s. Lisa, you said this was a very old cemetery that wasn`t really being used anymore.
"LISA": No.
GRACE: Many of these graves are close to or are approaching 100 years old.
"LISA": Right.
GRACE: So I take it that no one was really coming to visit the scene that much anymore. You mentioned that this was off the beaten path. Are you suggesting that someone would really have to know about it in order to dump a body there?
"LISA": I really think you probably would. Like I said, you don`t pass this cemetery, you know, going about your daily business. You have to turn off of the highway as you get into the town that it`s near, Bagoda (ph), Tennessee. And you have to go up a hill, and then you have to bear - - I believe it`s off to the right once it forks.
And it`s just a dead end. I mean, it goes nowhere but to that cemetery. So you have to know about it because it`s definitely in seclusion. The only people that would go up there would be, you know, maybe your teenager because that cross (ph) is right there. But that`s it. I mean, there`s nothing -- there`s no reason anybody to be up there even to visit a tombstone because it is so old.
GRACE: You know, I am learning more stunning evidence leaking out tonight regarding the discovery of the body of the young mom of four, Karen Swift. We now know that police are processing the car and the home for DNA evidence. DNA evidence -- that suggests to me that police believe that either the car or the home are the crime scene. One of those or both are the crime scene.
Now, police are also not letting out evidence as to what Karen Swift was wearing at the time her body was discovered. Lisa, her friend, have you heard anything regarding what she was wearing?
And the point I`m getting to -- let me just cut to the chase -- is if she`s still wearing her nightgown when her body is found, that gives me a pretty good indicator of where she was when she was murdered, Lisa. So have you been told anything about what she was wearing?
"LISA": I have not, Nancy. As far as I know, the only information on clothing that I`ve heard has been the discovery of the clothing off in the brush around her vehicle. I think it was a gray hoodie and a pair of jeans. So we`ve all wondered that. You know, were her clothes removed? But if so, why were they just thrown? I mean, I don`t -- I have not heard if she was clothed or unclothed when she was found. So no, I have not heard anything on that.
GRACE: Lisa, do you know if she had a gray hoodie and jeans? Do you know what she was wearing when she went to go pick her daughter up from the sleepover that night?
"LISA": I don`t know that. I don`t know if she was wearing those clothes or if she had them in her car for another reason. I don`t know. I don`t know. I wish I did.
GRACE: At this hour, more details emerging about the condition of Karen Swift`s body. And key evidence is going to determine the outcome of this homicide investigation. This is what we know. We know that she was last seen alive at her own home. Her little girl and her get into bed together around 2:00 AM. 6:00 AM, the 9-year-old wakes up. Mommy`s gone. The dad says he sees her leaving early that morning at the front door, doesn`t know where she`s going.
A quarter of a mile away, her car is found. In it is a screw of some sort, a sheetrock screw, and a puncture. She`s an avid runner. She could have been back home in about a couple of minutes.
Now her body has turned up at, basically, an abandoned graveyard also on the same street. So this suggests that the killer is in that area.
Very quickly, I want to go to Captain Paul Sparks, PIO, Montgomery County at the Maryland Police Department. Captain Starks, what does it say to you that the body, the car, the home, all found in such close proximity?
CAPT. PAUL SPARKS, MONTGOMERY COUNTY, MD, POLICE DEPT.: Well, it may be an indicator that it could be somebody close to her or her close circle of friends. That`s a normal thing for an investigation to start with, who`s with her, who knows what her habits are and who was the last person to see her?
GRACE: We now know that this was just a dumping ground, not the spot of the murder of young mom of four Karen Swift. Tonight, who killed this mom of four?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Karen Swift was found murdered.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s kind of scary to think that there is somebody out there.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Swift`s body was found in this wooded area located just two to three miles from her home.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If anyone has any information about her, please, please let us know.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Preston Swift has been making a desperate plea for help ever since his mother vanished.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Early this afternoon, a body was discovered along this rural road.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Karen Swift was reportedly last seen by her husband, David Swift, with whom she was in the process of divorcing.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Whoever done it is sick. That`s (INAUDIBLE) like, you shouldn`t do that to someone.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A mother of four...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) this is unbelievable that she`s gone (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I love you, Mom.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Stunning evidence emerging tonight in the death of young mom of four Karen Swift, her body parts seen jutting out between thick kudzu vines, weeds, in an all but an abandoned cemetery, the graveyard just down the street from her home.
We are taking your calls. Another bombshell tonight. We`ve discovered there is DNA evidence believed to be in her car. Cops are also looking in her home. Also, we learned that her body has been held up at the medical examiner`s office. Obvious wounds were spotted by the eyewitness that stumbled upon the body. That gives us a clue as to the cause of death. But if the wounds were so obvious to the eye, the naked eye, why is the body still at the medical examiner`s office? Was the body and the cause of death staged?
Sheriffs now admitting the body was placed in that spot. The scene was, in fact, staged. This is the dumping ground, not the murder scene. Her car, we now know, was punctured, plus a sheetrock screw in the tire.
Joining me right now also taking your calls, Jason Garcia, manager, Tire Experts Complete Auto Care. Jason, thank you for being with us, joining us from Chesterton. Jason, what about a sheetrock screw in the tire? Could that have happened accidentally? Explain a sheetrock screw.
JASON GARCIA, STORE MANAGER, TIRE EXPERTS COMPLETE AUTO CARE (via telephone): A sheetrock screw is just one part of debris that could be found on the road. I mean, there`s multiple, multiple different pieces of metal, screws, nails that are found in tires nowadays. And come to find out -- I mean, there`s just more and more stuff being dropped on the roads from trucks, cars, any type of vehicle being driven on the road or...
GRACE: What exactly...
GARCIA: ... they`re dropping...
GRACE: ... is a sheetrock screw?
GARCIA: A sheetrock screw? I see quite a few of them, actually, coming through my shop and being repaired. But accidentally -- it could be accidentally. Nowadays, when people try to damage tires, it`s a real clean cut, sometimes even being used by an ice pick nowadays. And sometimes even the valve stems are being tampered with, where they`re loosening the cores (ph) and causing a tire to go underinflated.
GRACE: Let me ask you this, Jason Garcia. Could a sheetrock screw alone puncture a tire and cause a flat, a sheetrock screw?
GARCIA: Yes. Yes, it could.
GRACE: We are learning tonight that there is not only a puncture to the tire, but also a sheetrock screw in the tire. Also, there on the scene, clothing believed to belong to Karen Swift, by her car, DNA evidence in the car also, cops still scouring the home for DNA evidence.
We`re taking your calls. Belinda in Kentucky. Hi, dear. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, hi, Nancy. First off, I want to say you are amazing for all you do for the missing.
GRACE: Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And this is just really -- it`s hard for me because I`ve been there and I know how this is. My question was actually on the screw and the tire. Was it an old screw? I mean, could they tell us if it was there for a while or if was it fairly new?
GRACE: Good question. Bonnie Druker, on the story. Bonnie, what do we know about this screw, the sheetrock screw, and the puncture to the tire?
BONNIE DRUKER, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, we know that there was a puncture to the tire. We don`t know that much about the sheetrock screw. But what we do know, the sheriff says, is the evidence from the car and from the body will crack this case, Nancy.
GRACE: You know, another -- another issue -- do I still have Garcia with me, Liz? Another thing we learned is that the tire was off the rim. Explain that, Jason Garcia.
GARCIA: Well, even from experience -- I`ve been working with tires since `96, and it takes more than just a simple pop the tire off. I mean, even with professional tools and being experienced, it`s really hard for me to do it with the proper tools, to get a tire off of the rim by hand. Normally, nowadays, we use these touchless (ph) machines that mount the tires and...
GRACE: Well, what does it say to you, Jason, that the tire was off the rim? What does that mean?
GARCIA: It could have been driven for a period of time as it was underinflated. I have seen in the past tires underinflated that will pop off of the rim sometimes.
GRACE: Or what?
GARCIA: But normally, it still stays intact on the rim. The beads just come separate -- separate themselves from being locked into place.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Karen Swift seems have vanished without a trace.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everything seemed OK. We`re very worried!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Reportedly last seen by her husband inside their home.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mother of four Karen Swift...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Reports say the body is decomposing as questions swirl.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The body was discovered along this rural road.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I heard that Karen Swift was found at the graveyard up here.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Authorities find a body near a cemetery.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Karen Swift was reportedly last seen by her husband, David Swift, with whom she was in the process of divorcing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) unbelievable that -- that she`s gone (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My concern goes out with the children.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I love you, Mom.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They`re in shock, no doubt about it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls. Stunning evidence emerging tonight regarding the discovery of the body of young mom of four Karen Swift, her body parts spotted jutting out from thick weeds, kudzu vines, there at an all but abandoned cemetery, a graveyard, all on the same road as her home. And at the tip of that road, her car found abandoned.
We`re taking your calls. But first, unleash the lawyers. Bradford Cohen, Miami, Holly Hughes, Atlanta. Guys, the sheriff says the injuries to her body apparent to the naked eye at a distance. Not only that, tonight we learn Harness Road is the key to the investigation, according to sheriffs. She lives off Harness Road, the body found off Harness Road, and her car parked at the tip of the same road.
Do the names Robert Blake, Raymond Clark (ph), Scott Peterson ring a bell to you, Holly Hughes? Of course, Robert Blake later acquitted in the murder of Bonnie Lee Bakley, his wife. Raymond Clark III killed Annie Le there in the building where both of them worked, and he stuffed her in the wall. She was the researcher, the Ph.D. student there. And of course, Scott Peterson -- where does he dump his wife? His favorite fishing hole, San Francisco Bay.
My point is, it all happens close to home. Robert Blake allegedly got rid of the gun right in there the dumpster behind the restaurant where the body was found. Why? Because, some people say, he didn`t have anywhere he could go. He was stuck there at the scene. He had to get rid of the gun.
In this case, the killer gets rid of the car and body all on the same street, Holly Hughes!
HOLLY HUGHES, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, yes, the killer. But that`s the key. The killer doesn`t necessarily mean the husband, Nancy. The sheriff himself has said that this man, Mr. Swift, has done everything to cooperate. He has given up DNA voluntarily. He has let them search everything they`ve asked to search. He`s come in for an interview voluntarily. He has allowed them to interview one of the children.
There is nothing that ties this man to the crime. He voluntarily gave up his DNA, and that may be just for the purposes of elimination, Nancy.
GRACE: What about it, Bradford Cohen?
HUGHES: There`s nothing that ties this man to the crime.
BRADFORD COHEN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: She`s absolutely correct. There`s absolutely zero that we know that ties him to the crime besides him just being her ex-husband.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The discovery of Karen Swift`s body.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Authorities find a body near a cemetery.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Positively identified as missing mom Karen Swift.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They told me that she did leave the house that night.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: They gotten at some point before the kids got up and left the house.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was at the top of the stairs when she had left. We never was clear on the time.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Reportedly last seen by her husband with whom she was in the process of divorcing.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Whoever done it is sick.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: A shocking discovery.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, I`m in total shock.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My concern goes out with the children.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They`re in shock, no doubt about it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We need the evidence to point us there.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Please let us know.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY GRACE, HLN HOST: We are taking your calls. The body of mom of four Karen Swift`s body parts spotted jutting out between thick kudzu vines. Tonight stunning evidence emerges in the death of the young mom.
Now we are learning DNA evidence in Swift`s car. What is it? We also learn her body still at the medical examiner`s office.
To Dr. Joyce M. Carter, chief forensic pathologist, Marion County, author of "I Speak for the Dead," joining us out of Indianapolis.
Dr. Carter, thank you for being with us. With the attack on the body, the trauma on the body, visible to the naked eye, by civilians, not a doctor, not a cop, what does that say to you as to the cause of death, Doctor?
DR. JOYCE M. CARTER, M.D., CHIEF FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST, MARION COUNTY, IN, AUTHOR OF "I SPEAK FOR THE DEAD": Well, thank you, Nancy. First thing we have to be able to rule out is that, is it post- mortem trauma that occurred after the death occurred, or was it actual injury?
For the medical examiner`s right to hold the body to do a complete examination. Out in the open you could have insect activity that can cause injuries that look like all kinds of things that have been done the body. Animal activity. They`re going to want to do a close examination, call in a forensic dentist, call in a forensic anthropologist. And take a very close look at the body to determine whether or not that was the scene of death and/or injury and to try to figure out how long this victim has been dead.
GRACE: With me is Dr. Joyce M. Carter, joining us out of Indianapolis.
Dr. Carter, why do you say that a forensic dentist and forensic anthropologist to be -- should be brought in?
CARTER: Well, with this length of time having passed you may have lots -- a lot of changes to the body from the environment, again from animals and from insects, and you want to look at the skeleton to see if there`s any evidence of injury there such as gunshot wounds, sometimes stabbing, you could see some fractures of the skeleton.
And sometimes the skin or soft tissue will be very dark you can`t really see the -- they might remove that soft tissue and look at the skeleton itself. Also you may want to be able to try to get DNA from the body to get it from some of the lung zone and from the teeth.
GRACE: I want to go now to Lisa, Karen`s friend joining us tonight.
Lisa, when you hear -- I hate to even have the exchange, the Q and A in the discussion in your hearing with a medical examiner regarding a forensic anthropologist and forensic dentist, and about the skin darkening. And the cause of death. I know her friends and family must be beside themselves.
What can you tell me about the state of her marriage just prior to her death, Lisa?
LISA, FRIEND OF MISSING MOM OF 4 WHOSE BODY JUST DISCOVERED NEAR CEMETERY: You know, Karen was very positive and upbeat about the whole process. I know that she`s taken the girls to the beach during their fall break from school and I believe that`s when her husband was given the papers.
But as far as I could tell, you know, they are pretty amicable. She just wanted to -- and I think they both did -- go about it in a peaceful, respectful way for their children and for each other. You know, she was very excited about starting this new chapter in her life. And they just wanted to give their kids a sense of security and, you know, have them understand that, you know, they are still going to be in each other`s lives and they were trying to make it as an easy a process as they could.
GRACE: Lisa, why were they living together under the same roof mid- divorce?
LISA: Well, it`s not always easy to be able to move out, find a new place to live if you don`t have the financial resources already in tact so you can be ready to go. That`s why she was taking cleaning jobs and having landscape jobs scheduled. She was taking classes at the Y. She was just trying to go about it in a way that she could be able to adequately provide for her children, giving them shelter, everything that a child needs in order to thrive.
And I don`t think that it would have been fair for the kids if she had just, you know, gone and lived somewhere else, even though, you know, it might have made sense to some people. She was a devoted mother and it`s not -- it`s not easy as a parent to just, you know, pick up and leave the house that your kids are used to living in for all these years, and you might not see them all the time, you know. It`s just very hard.
GRACE: What was she teaching at the Y, Lisa?
LISA: She was.
GRACE: What was she teaching?
LISA: She was teaching a class called Silver Sneakers. It`s for senior citizens, the low impact, like, weight resistance class mainly catering to seniors. She loved it. She was very excited.
GRACE: Did you know that she had any car trouble at all at the time she went missing?
LISA: No. No. That car was recently purchased. So I mean the new vehicle, I don`t see why she would have had car trouble.
GRACE: Do you know how her 9-year-old and 6-year-old are doing?
LISA: I don`t. I saw them a few weeks ago and of course they were being children and, you know, just playing and kind of unaware. Well, you know, we didn`t really know what was going on either. So -- but just being kids and playing and the little one was just dancing and playing games with us.
GRACE: OK.
LISA: And -- but now that they know, I`m sure they are very devastated and it`s just heartbreaking, especially with the holidays. And --
GRACE: I know. I cannot imagine what they are going through at Christmastime.
LISA: I can`t either.
GRACE: With me, friend of Karen Swift, Lisa.
Also joining us right now criminal profiler, author of "The Profiler," Pat Brown is joining us from Washington.
Pat, it`s amazing to me what we`re learning tonight. In the last hours we learned, Pat, that the body is found on the same road, Harness Road, in all but abandoned cemetery jutting out from amid kudzu vines. The car parked at the tip of Harness Road. The home off Harness Road. What do you make of it, Pat Brown, that it`s all in such close proximity?
PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER, AUTHOR OF "THE PROFILER": Well, you know, it`s one of these cases where, you know, they are going to again be looking back at somebody she knows because the chances of her running over a -- what is it, a screw on the road that`s going to damage her tire to that extent where she`s so close to home she can`t get the rest of the way that she would then jump out of the vehicle and start running home. And a serial killer would pull up just at that point in time and grab her. I mean we just have to think that`s probably fairly unlikely that the car and the body are so close to the proximity of the house.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: A shocking discovery.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The body was discovered along this rural road.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I heard that Karen Swift was found at graveyard up here.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The body was reportedly found near a cemetery. And cops say once cold weather killed vegetation the body became visible.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Mother of four, Karen Swift, picked up her daughter from a Halloween party in late October and hasn`t been seen since. Days after her disappearance her car was found near her home. Her tires were split.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We all know each other. And pretty much know each other`s comings and goings. So it`s hard to think that something like that could happen just right down the road.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: What happened to mom Karen Swift?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Bombshell evidence emerging in the hours before we go to air. We learned that DNA absolutely has been found on items. Sheriff Jeff Box from the Dyer County`s sheriff`s office there in Tennessee does say items have been ID`d with DNA. He won`t tell us what items wisely. But also says that it definitely could point to a suspect.
With us, Pat Brown, renown criminal profiler.
Pat, you were saying just as we went to air that the close proximity between the home, the body and the car is very significant and I agree with you. I was using the examples of Robert Blake where the murder weapon was found in a dumpster a few feet away from the body, that Scott Peterson dumped his wife and unborn child Connor in his favorite watering hole, his fishing hole, the San Francisco bay, and then there was Raymond Clark who killed the PhD Annie Le right there in the building where they both worked and stuffed her in the wall, hid her body in the wall.
All of these comparisons are significant, very significant. Why, Pat?
BROWN: Well, usually people do what`s practical. So in the case -- we`ve seen a lot of times when the woman is killed by her husband he`ll park the car near enough to home to be able to walk back within 20 minutes. He doesn`t want to park it 10 miles away and then have to jog all the way - - all the way home again which is why they`re going to be looking heavily at the husband.
However, I`m not saying this can discount, that it could be a stranger homicide. It`s unlikely but the DNA that they`ve got -- thank God -- may help, you know, rule him in or rule him out. SP it`s he`s going to be very lucky if he`s not involved that there is DNA that will point away from him.
But you know it`s just extraordinary unlikely that she would have a bunch of things go wrong at one time. She goes out for no reason we know of. Nobody has seen her that we`ve heard of. That she would be so close to home when her -- suddenly her tire goes flat and then she gets out and a serial killer just grabbed her? He doesn`t kill her on the spot but he actually abducts her? And clothing left behind. Takes her some place? I mean it`s just -- it`s fairly unlikely. But could it happen? There`s always that anomaly so that`s what the police have to be very careful of.
GRACE: Well, also, Pat Brown.
BROWN: And so they`re taking their time.
GRACE: This is something that you and I have seen too many times to count. The sheriff is saying that they believe the body was placed there. This is not the location of the murder. That the body was placed there.
Pat Brown, that speaks volumes. Explain.
BROWN: Well, usually, you know, when they are looking at a dump site yes, there has been a homicide elsewhere. It is possible a homicide could have occurred, for example, she was grabbed by a stranger in a van somewhere and then her body dumped. But it`s also possible that she was killed at home. And then her body was taken some place, dumped and then her car was dumped as well.
And that`s what they`re looking at. Of course maybe somebody she went to visit who did the same thing. Maybe bringing the car back toward her home. But I find that odd. Just a lot of coincidental stuff right around her house.
GRACE: And also, if this were a random killing -- let`s go to Dr. Caryn Stark, psychologist joining us out of New York.
If this were a random murder, Caryn Stark, and you and I have discussed this on and off the air so many, many times. If this is a random killing, the killer -- why bother to try to hide clothing, to put the body in a different location, to possibly harm the body in addition to the cause of death, to obscure the cause of death.
A random killer kills at least a body and hightails it. It doesn`t go through all of this drama and additional effort to hide the body. Explain.
CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: Nancy, I mean people may be wondering about having a body being staged. And I think it`s important for them to know that that`s usually something sexual. And that`s what I wonder. I wonder was she involved, I hate to say this because her friend is listening and possibly family, perhaps she was involved with somebody else, somebody who had this instinct in them because it does seem like they knew where they were.
On the other hand her clothes are on trees so she`s naked, perhaps, and she`s staged, which to me says sexual, that there was a sexual killing going on. So it could have been that she was involved with somebody and nobody knew since she left in the middle of the night. And it would be somebody who`s also in the neighborhood.
GRACE: You know what`s interesting to me, Caryn Stark, is that, she`s with -- in bed with her 9-year-old child, her little girl. I just find it very hard to believe that between 2:00 a.m., little girl wanted to come over from a sleepover, Caryn, at 1:45 a.m. She gets up, gets dressed and goes to pick up the child, brings her home. They get into bed together.
I sleep with one or both of my children practically every night. I find it very hard to believe, Caryn, that this mother gets up in the middle of the night and leaves before 6:00 a.m. for a sex tryst.
You know, I`m just not buying that. And leave your kid alone in the bed, your child? I don`t believe that, Caryn Stark. I just -- no.
STARK: You know -- you know, Nancy, it could have just been that she`s involved and someone is calling her and saying it`s an emergency. We don`t know what got her out of the bed.
GRACE: Well, if that was true we have a cell call or a record of the phone call because we don`t?
STARK: You`re right. We don`t have that. And yet --
GRACE: So that didn`t happen.
STARK: The circumstances are so bizarre that she would be staged that way. And that --
GRACE: I don`t know that she was naked, Caryn. I don`t know that. I know that clothes were found that they believe belonged to her near her car.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: The body wasn`t there. I mean somebody didn`t strip her down at her car on the side of the road and then drag her off butt-naked to a kudzu vine next to a graveyard. That`s not the way it went down. That -- I don`t know if she was clothed or not clothed. But I do know that this graveyard was used as a dumping ground. Somebody went to the effort of hiding her body there.
Hold, Caryn Stark.
Out to the lines, John, Florida. Hi, dear, what`s your question?
JOHN, CALLER FROM FLORIDA: Hi there, Nancy. You`re looking great these days.
GRACE: Thank you.
JOHN: And I`ve got some questions. The fact that the 9-year-old daughter didn`t find her mother when she woke up, did the police question her about her, anything that might have transpired between her and her father, in other words how did the father talk to her.
GRACE: Right.
JOHN: How did he explain anything --
GRACE: OK, hold on. Hold on. Hold on to John in Florida.
To Joe Gomez, KTRH, what do we know?
JOE GOMEZ, REPORTER, KTRH RADIO: Nancy, we know that the -- the husband of Karen Swift is allowing police to interview some of the kids so we don`t know what they found out yet. I mean it could be that the little girl heard something. Maybe she heard, you know, mommy go outside and, you know, get in the car and take off.
Also, another set of scenario, Nancy, that perhaps somebody planted the screw inside of her car then followed her, pretend to be a helpful stranger to take the tire off and then murder Karen Swift. I mean that`s also a possibility.
GRACE: Yes. It`s just with her being an avid runner, I find it very odd that she didn`t just jog home. You know, a quarter of a mile, she could have been there in two minutes, three minutes. If she`s that much of an exercise buff.
Everyone, you are seeing shots right now of young mom of four, Karen Swift. Her body found there in an abandoned graveyard. Her body parts sticking out from kudzu vines.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Preston believes their dad had nothing to do with his mother Karen`s disappearance.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I never saw any violence. They both cared about each other and they did, you know, care about us.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Welcome back. We are taking your calls. Back to John in Florida. What was the second part of your question?
JOHN: Simply this. That it`s possible that the tires on the car were slashed before the car ever left the house because riding with slashed tires is the only real explanation for how the tire might have come off the rim.
In other words, there is no explanation, and strange things happen, but going on a flat tire, it would be easier for a tire to come off the rim than not.
GRACE: Point well taken, John.
To Captain Paul Starks, PIO, Montgomery County, Maryland Police Department.
Captain, I want you to weigh in on the facts you`re hearing tonight and also John in Florida`s observation regarding the tire.
CAPT. PAUL STARK, PIO, MONTGOMERY COUNTY, MARYLAND PD: Well, talk about the tire, I think a lot of us are just guessing and having some theories. Off the rim could mean a lot of different things like the tire expert was saying. It could be just the seal was popped, it was driven for a period of time very lowly inflated.
The other part of this is that investigators, the sheriff`s office is doing the right thing, keeping a lot of facts to themselves, keeping everybody -- not naming a suspect, not ruling anybody out at this time. They have to wait until they hear back from the medical examiner`s office, what her body will tell the medical examiner may help the police quite a bit.
GRACE: And to our lawyers, Bradford Cohen, Holly Hughes.
Holly Hughes, what about it?
HOLLY HUGHES, PROSECUTOR: Well, Nancy, what we have here is a mom who picks up her little girl because she`s sick. So maybe she got up to go get medicine for that 9-year-old and that`s why she was desperate to run on a flat tire.
GRACE: Now I haven`t heard any evidence about the daughter being sick. I know she wanted to come home from a spend the night party.
What about it, Cohen?
BRADFORD COHEN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I think the tire was flat when she left. That`s why it was a quarter mile away and that`s why it came off the rim.
GRACE: Let`s stop and remember Army Sergeant Michael Lehmiller, 23, Anderson, South Carolina, killed Afghanistan. Second tour, awarded two Bronze Stars, Purple Heart, two Army Commendations medals, three Army Achievement medals. Loved racing cars, baseball cards, video games, sports. Favorite team, Tampa Bay Bucks, the Lightning, and Rays. Dreamed of working for Nintendo or Sony creating video games. Leaves behind parents Gale and Robert, stepfather Paul, sister Shelly.
Michael Lehmiller, American hero.
Thanks to our guests, but especially to you for being with us. And happy birthday to one of our stars, Rachel. There she was with me at "Dancing with the Stars."
Love to grandparents in Florida, Mariah Carey, the New York Yankees, and our show.
Everyone, I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp eastern. Until then, good night, friend.
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