Return to Transcripts main page
Nancy Grace
Severed Head Found Near Hollywood Sign
Aired January 18, 2012 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. The iconic Hollywood sign, a landmark on the Hollywood Hills looking down on the city itself, now cordoned off with yellow crime scene tape and round-the-clock police after two women walking dogs stumble upon a severed human head.
Bombshell tonight. Cadaver dogs unleashed in the Hollywood Hills in the hopes of finding the rest of the human body that goes with the severed head. At this hour, we know very little about the victim, except police say the head appears to be quote, "fresh."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was a head.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Now a homicide investigation.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Authorities say a severed human head.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A human head found.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A severed head.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was found underneath the world-famous Hollywood sign.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was a head.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was near the observatory and the Hollywood sign.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The head appears to be rather new.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was a head.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Two of the dogs began to play with the bag and what appeared to be an object.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And search again for additional human remains.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The women were walking their dogs on a hiking trail when they discovered a plastic bag with a human head inside.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Speculation there could be other bags out (ph) within that crime scene.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Crime scene.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: With other body parts inside.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: While the dogs were playing with it, at some point, the object came out of the bag, and they discovered that it was a head.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Eerie feeling.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The scene were the head was found is being guarded by police.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A popular place for exercise.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s disturbing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Look for the rest of the victim.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: These trails are often crowded with hikers.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As searchers with cadaver dogs.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A new sense of fear.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Look for more human remains.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us tonight. Bombshell tonight. The iconic Hollywood sign, a landmark on the Hollywood Hills looking down on the city itself, now cordoned off with yellow crime scene tape, round-the-clock police after two women stumble upon a severed human head. At this hour, we know very little about the victim except police say the head appears to be, quote, "fresh."
We are live there at the scene there in LA in the Hollywood Hills. Pat Lalama, investigative journalist, Investigation Discovery anchor -- Pat, what happened?
PAT LALAMA, INVESTIGATION DISCOVERY: It is unbelievable, Nancy! Right behind me, right behind that gate -- can you imagine -- and by the way, let me just tell you right now so much activity going on right now. We`ve got choppers. We`ve got search parties. We`ve got utility vehicles. They`re looking for the rest -- what goes with that head.
What happened? Yesterday, 2:00 PM, approximately, two women who happen to be dog walkers for a living -- they had nine dogs with them. Right behind me, all of a sudden, two of the dogs wander off to play with a plastic bag. Well, guess what? While they`re playing with a plastic bag, a head falls out and rolls a few feet down. Can you imagine what they must have felt like?
GRACE: First of all -- Pat Lalama joining us there at the scene. A severed human head has been discovered on a hiking trail there beneath the Hollywood sign, Hollywood Hills. There the yellow crime scene tape is cordoning off the hiking trail itself from a spot that looks down on the city.
It appears, according to many crime scene analysts, including myself, it`s as if the perpetrator wanted the severed human head to be found. It was not in a dumpster, set to be crushed, set to be put in a landfill. It was not in some remote area. It was there on a hiking trail, incidentally, discovered just after rush hour.
Typically, Pat Lalama, people are out walking their dogs up and down this trail throughout the early morning before they have to get in the car and battle LA traffic. This severed human head was found around 2:30 PM, which strategically, police now believe it was placed after the morning rush. Explain, Pat Lalama.
LALAMA: Well, we`re very, very close to the main thoroughfares that lead to the 101, which, as you well know, is a very, very heavily trafficked highway in this area. We`re not far from that particular area. So after rush hour, whomever comes up, comes up the main road here, called Canyon Drive, and what we believe is drove behind that gate and walked a few yards off.
And you`re right, right in broad daylight. Nothing to fear. Plenty of people.
Nancy, this is the iconic tourist area. There are people around here all the time, hiking, walking, sightseeing. Every day, someone says to me, How do I get to the Hollywood sign? So you`re right, it seems this person had nothing to fear and nothing to hide.
GRACE: We are live there in LA, just beneath the Hollywood sign that`s been part of countless movies, TV, you name it. There you see it. Just below this on a hiking trail, a severed human head discovered by two women.
It`s my understanding -- out to Dylan Howard, senior executive editor, Radaronline.com, that they were professional dog walkers? What do we know about the people that discovered the head?
DYLAN HOWARD, RADARONLINE.COM: Well, they were walking just nine dogs. They are professional dog walkers, and they take this route almost daily. It is their profession. And just to give you an idea, Nancy, this isn`t a huge crime area in Los Angeles. This is the coveted Hollywood Hills.
Right where I`m standing at the moment, there are houses, multi- million-dollar homes standing right next to us. This is the esteemed Hollywood Hills, where many people, many people right here behind us, people that have worked in Hollywood, industry people -- there`s no crime in this area, which makes this even more the perplexing.
GRACE: Dylan Howard, I get it -- champagne dreams, caviar wishes. I get it! That doesn`t help me in identifying who is the human victim.
In the last hours, police cordoned off an area, a hiking area just below the Hollywood Hills sign, after a human head is found in a bag, a plastic bag.
With us, Dylan Howard, Radaronline.com, Pat Lalama from Investigation Discovery, there on the scene.
Pat, I want to go back to what Dylan was just saying, that nearby are homes. How close was the human head to the homes? And what do we know, A, about the women that discovered the head, and B, about the bag itself the head was in?
LALAMA: About the dog that discovered? What I -- only thing that I know is that two of the dogs broke away from the pack and followed the scent to the bag. And that`s really all we can tell at this point.
GRACE: To Ellie Jostad, our chief editorial producer. Ellie, they were dog walkers for a living, and police in no way are connecting them to the murder, is my understanding. What do we know about the plastic bag itself, Ellie?
ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Right, Nancy. Well, police are just telling us that it is some type of trash bag. They haven`t told us if it was from a store, if it`s -- you know, they haven`t told us the particular brand. We`re still waiting to find those details, but they are keeping that quiet at this point.
GRACE: Joining me right now, Heather Walsh-Haney, forensic anthropologist from Florida Gulf Coast University, a leading expert in her field.
Liz, let me keep the video going in case anything happens there at the Hollywood Hills sign. Everyone, you are seeing cops, investigators there converged at the discovery, a gruesome discovery. In the last hours, two women walking dogs find a severed human head in a plastic bag.
Heather Walsh-Haney, forensic anthropologist, they are saying the head is, quote, "fresh." What does that mean? And how can we tell -- what can we tell about the body and the victim from the head?
HEATHER WALSH-HANEY, FORENSIC ANTHROPOLOGIST: Well, we have the head. They`re indicating that it is fresh because the skin is intact, the hair hasn`t slipped away, there`s no bloat, it sounds like. There are no insects that have ravaged the skin and the soft tissue.
So with that being said, the first thing that these investigators and medical examiners have to do is determine whether the head is male or female and what ancestry or race that individual is, not to mention how old. So some of the things that they`ll will look at, other than the obvious, like hair style, whether there`s gray present, if there is facial hair -- are things like the shape of the brow ridge. Males tend to have an eyebrow ridge that is prominent, that is double arched, whereas females have much flatter brow ridges and foreheads.
They`ll also look at thing like the jaw line. Males tend to have a very broad jaw line here, where it connects to the neck, and a very broad chin, whereas females tend to have a more pointed chin.
The other thing they`ll do is they will look at the age of the individual. If the wisdom teeth have erupted, we know that individual is older than 18. They`ll look for the amount of wear on the teeth or whether dentures are present to figure out if that individual is older than 40.
They`ll also look at indicators of ancestry with the teeth, if they`re present. They`ll look at the tongue side of those teeth to determine whether the individual is white or black, for example.
GRACE: We are taking your calls. Out to Sara in California. Hi, dear. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I`m just wondering, the anthropologist mentioned about the teeth. Now, if none of the teeth are present, can you get a positive ID on this body, or on this person?
GRACE: You know, Sara, interesting question. Without the teeth, without fingerprints, it may be very difficult to ever determine who the victim is. What about it, Heather Walsh-Haney?
WALSH-HANEY: We may be lucky and this individual might have had a rhinoplasty or some surgery or injury that`ll manifest on the bones of the face or the vault that would help us get a positive ID. Also because the head is fresh, we`ll, hopefully, be able to get -- extract DNA and then positively ID the individual.
GRACE: It`s going to be really tough to do it through DNA, as Heather Walsh-Haney is describing, yes as to extracting DNA, but you got to have something to compare that DNA analysis to.
We are taking your calls. And live on the scene there in Hollywood Hills, in the last hours, police cordoned off an area, a hiking area, after two professional dog walkers, both women, are out walking numerous dogs, between 9 and 12 dogs, when two of the dogs stumble upon and begin playing with a plastic bag.
To Pat Lalama. Let`s go through what we know regarding any other circumstances surrounding the way the head was discovered.
LALAMA: This is what we now for certain. 2:30 in the afternoon, two professional dog walkers, nine different dogs -- two dogs right behind this gate decide they`re interested in a bag very nearby. They play with the bag. A head rolls. It`s a human head.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This rugged hillside near the 3200 block of Canyon Drive is now a homicide investigation. A park ranger alerted authorities about a human head found inside a bag above Bronx (ph) and Canyon, near the Griffith Observatory and the Hollywood sign.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Many left with an eerie feeling and a new sense of fear.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Authorities say a severed human head was found underneath the world-famous Hollywood sign.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was shocked (ph). Nothing like this that I know of has ever happened.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police tell us the women, dog walkers...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... found the human head in a plastic bag just off a hiking trail.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: While the dogs were playing with it, at some point, the object came out of the bag and they discovered that it was a head.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s disturbing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police believe the head had not been there a long time due to the condition of the remains.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I saw way many more vultury-looking birds than I normally do, and they were kind of circling.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A gruesome scene like this is unusual for this area.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) cadaver dogs and investigators look for the rest of the victim.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you hike up here a lot?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sure. All the time.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I am really going to rethink that.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) dogs began to play with the bag and what appeared to be an object, at -- while the dogs were playing with it, at some point, the object came out of the bag, and they discovered that it was a head. The head appears to be rather new. There was no evidence of decomposition that we know of, that we can see in the dark at this point.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are live and taking your calls. The Hollywood sign looking down onto the city itself now a crime scene after a severed human head discovered by dogs out for a walk.
We are taking your calls, but to Pat Brown, criminal profiler, author of "The Profiler." Pat, to me, it seems as if the perpetrator wanted the head to be found. Why else place it right there on a hiking trail below the Hollywood Hills sign, for Pete`s sake?
PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER: Well, I`d have to disagree. I don`t think he really cared whether it was found because if he really wanted people to see it, what I would do if I were him, is take a stick from one of those trees, stab it in the ground and put the head on top of it and say, Look, guys, or at least leave the head in the path just for people to freak out when they see it.
I think what happened is he walks that path. He`s walked that path before. And I think after he deposed of the other body parts, he just threw this one in a bag, took his little stroll, place he was comfortable with, and tossed it into the bushes. I think we`re going to find that he probably doesn`t have a vehicle and is just putting body parts in different places, and this is the place he chose for those last parts.
GRACE: To Dylan Howard, senior executive editor, Radaronline.com, joining us with Pat Lalama there at the Hollywood Hills sign. Dylan, cadaver dogs now scouring the area in the hopes that they can find the rest of the human body that goes with the severed head. What do we know about that?
HOWARD: Well, indeed, Nancy, as we said, this head was found just behind us, but the crime scene that they`re scouring at the moment, police, the LAPD, is, indeed, a significant area of bush land. We`re talking about huge hiking trails that are very popular with tourists.
And already in the last few moments, we`ve seen the LAPD take utility vehicles right behind us, vehicles that are almost very similar to golf carts, but with bigger tires that enable them to go deep into the bush land to try and potentially find this dismembered body. So we know that cadaver dogs are out behind us, as well, searching. You see LAPD going behind me, as well now, with vehicles into there. There`s a significant police force attempting to try and find the remaining parts of this body.
GRACE: Right now, furiously attempting to recreate what the head, what the face would have looked like in life.
To Diana Trepkov, certified forensic artist, author of "Faceless and Voiceless: From Search to Closure" -- Diana, thank you for being with us. What will they do to try to recreate the victim`s facial features?
DIANA TREPKOV, FORENSIC ARTIST: Once they have a photo of the head, the face, they`re going to measure the eyes, all the different features. They`re going to open the eyes, like I would open the eyes, and the eyes are the mirror to the soul. So I would draw all the features. If there is any scars, marks, tattoos, earrings, facial hair, it`s important. They`re great identifiers. So I would draw them perfectly, too. And it depends on the -- if it`s a fresh head, I don`t think it`s decomposed from what I`ve heard, so it would be pretty straightforward.
GRACE: To Brent Brown, former police officer, CEO of Chelsey Brown Companies. Brent, what can we learn from the plastic bag alone?
BRENT BROWN, FMR. ATLANTA POLICE OFFICER: Yes, there`s a lot of things that you can learn from that. We`re going to know the brand. The forensics are so incredible nowadays that they`re going to be able to track where the brand was purchased or where it was manufactured, probably even to the local store. You`re going to be able to tell whether or not it was industrial use or a common consumer product that you can get in any local store. So it`s going to tell us a lot of evidence in and of itself.
GRACE: To Mike Craig, K-9 instructor and handler, president of Public Safety Dogs, Inc., joining us out of Burlington. Mike, thanks for joining us. What are the dogs doing right now?
MIKE CRAIG, K-9 INSTRUCTOR, HANDLER (via telephone): Well, my guess is they`re scattered around, trying to pick up odor from any other body parts that may be there at the scene.
GRACE: Out to the lines. Katie in Illinois. Hi, Katie. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I wondered if we know if there was anybody seen in the area or if there`s any surveillance cameras in the area.
GRACE: You know, to Pat Lalama, investigative journalist from Investigation Discovery, there on the scene. You know, Dylan Howard was standing what appeared to be near back yards of some pretty pricey homes. Is there surveillance video?
LALAMA: This is a lovely, lovely old-money, old-school area of Hollywood, iconic, history. A lot of celebrities over the years have lived here. It`s one of the favorite places to live and one of the favorite places to visit for all the tourists who come here every year.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Made a shocking discovery, a severed human head.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) dogs (INAUDIBLE) playing with the bag and what appeared to be an object.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Popular place for exercise. These trails are often crowded with hikers.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The scene where the head was found is being guarded with police as searchers with cadaver dogs look for more human remains.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A shocking discovery.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A severed head.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In a plastic bag.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A gruesome scene.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Underneath the world-famous Hollywood sign.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The head appears to be rather new.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And little signs of decomposition.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Now a homicide investigation.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Many left with an eerie feeling.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Nothing like this that I know of has ever happened.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As searchers with cadaver dogs look for more human remains.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back. For those of you just joining us, a severed human head discovered by dogs, as two female dog walkers took them on a hike along the Hollywood Hills trail. There, looking down on the city, the head apparently rolled out of the bag as the dogs began to play with the object.
We`re taking your calls. To Dr. Bill Manion, medical examiner, joining us out of Philadelphia. Dr. Manion, I`m wondering about what the dogs, the cadaver dogs, will be able to uncover. How long does it take a human body to create cadaverine, which is generically what cadaver dogs hit upon in a human body?
DR. BILL MANION, MEDICAL EXAMINER/FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST (via telephone): Well, within -- depending on there temperature there at the scene, within 12 hours, 24 hours, you should be -- begin producing cadaverine and putrescine. And these chemicals are very volatile. They can get through plastic. Even if the -- if these body parts are wrapped in plastic, they`ll get through it. And the dogs have just, you know, a thousand times the sensitivity of humans for these chemicals, and they`re trained to hit on it. So I -- if there`s anything out there, I think the dogs will be able to find it.
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers, Bradford Cohen, defense attorney, Miami, Karla Bell, defense attorney there in LA. First of all, to you, Karla. We know that California has the death penalty. And to me, the severing of the head is so heinous and so atrocious. But yet on the other hand, it seems as if, in my mind -- Pat Brown disagrees with me -- the perp wanted the head to be found.
KARLA BELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, you know what, Nancy? We don`t even know who the victim is, let alone who the perpetrator is.
GRACE: Does it matter to you?
(CROSSTALK)
BELL: ... whether or not there were circumstances -- no, I`m just -- my point is, is that we don`t know anything other than the fact that...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: ... head cut off?
BELL: No, that`s not what I`m suggesting. Your question was whether or not the death penalty would be involved.
GRACE: And you said, Well, I don`t know...
(CROSSTALK)
BELL: My point is, we need to know more about the circumstances, how the head became to be removed from its body.
GRACE: Put her up. Put her up! We need to know more, Bradford, she says, about the circumstances. Now, how did that go, about how the head became to be removed from the body, I believe were her exact words. Does it matter how the head got chopped off? Bradford...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Does it matter who the victim is, Bradford Cohen?
BRADFORD COHEN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I think what she`s trying to say is if there`s a self-defense argument to be had and the head got severed during the argument, that would make a difference in terms of what the penalty would be, as opposed to just someone premeditatingly...
GRACE: Can you hear yourself?
COHEN: ... -cutting off a head.
GRACE: Do you hear what you`re saying? Someone`s head got chopped off by accident?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Walking their dogs on a hiking trail when they discovered a plastic bag with a human head inside. It was found underneath the world famous Hollywood sign.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Speculation there could be other bags out within that crime scene with other body parts inside.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: While the dogs were playing with it, at some point the object came out of the bag and they discovered that it was a head.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The scene where the head was found is being guarded by police as searchers with cadaver dogs look for more human remains.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Many left with an eerie feeling and a new sense of fear.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was ahead.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: It is now a homicide investigation.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Authorities say a severed human head.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: A human head found.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Severed head.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The head appears to be rather new. There was no evidence of decomposition.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Severed head.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: It was found underneath the world famous Hollywood sign.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was a head.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Griffith Observatory and the Hollywood sign.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The head appears to be rather new.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY GRACE, HLN HOST: We are taking your calls. Joining us there, just beneath the iconic Hollywood sign there in Hollywood Hills, a severed head rolls out of a plastic bag as two female dog walkers take about nine to 12 dogs for a walk. This was about 2:30 p.m. after the main rush hour of the early morning.
Many crime analysts believe the perpetrator wanted the severed head to be found. At this hour, yellow crime scene tape cordons off the area as cadaver dogs scour the trees and brush there along the hiking trail for the rest of the human body that goes with the head.
We are taking your calls, out to Rhonda in New York. Hi, Rhonda. What`s your question?
RHONDA, CALLER FROM NEW YORK: Hi, Nancy. I have a question for the cop. I`d like to know, could you get fingerprints off this bag and even if you could, could you trace it back to someone with such little information?
GRACE: I feel very strongly that there will be fingerprints on the bag unless the perp wiped it down but plastic is typically an excellent, excellent medium from which to get prints.
You know, let me throw that to you, Brent Brown. What about it?
BRENT BROWN: I think it`s entirely possible that they can do that, but what you may be dealing with is someone that is sending a message. They wanted this found and so they don`t necessarily want to be caught.
GRACE: Well, do you agree that the perp wanted the head to be found?
BROWN: I have no doubt in my mind that`s exactly why they put it there. Exactly where they put it, the time they put it, yes, they wanted it found.
GRACE: To Caryn Stark, psychologist joining us out of New York, why, why would a killer want this severed head to be found and in this manner? Because I`m going to go with the he because statistically the killer is a he.
CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: That`s right.
GRACE: He left this head there for hikers and joggers to find.
STARK: He did and, Nancy, there is no doubt in my mind that this person wanted to be found. We`re talking about a staged scene. An iconic, as Pat said, a precious sentimental landmark. There is no accident that the head was found there. Just the whole way that it was in plastic and then it rolled out. That could be a movie. Unfortunately it`s a horrific story that`s real life. So someone wants this attention really relished, believe it or not, chopping this head off.
GRACE: That someone is probably watching the show right now, Caryn Stark. Explain.
STARK: Yes, because that someone wants the attention, the notoriety that he`s getting right now. And he`s sort of doing a game with the police, too. He`s saying, catch me if you can. And I think everyone needs to be very careful about landmarks right now and body parts and to see what else is out there.
GRACE: You know, another issue regarding Rhonda in New York`s question, if you get prints off the plastic bag, can you get a match?
Here`s the kicker. You have to have something to compare it to. Now we`ve got APHIS. APHIS is a database including fingerprints. They are taken from people with convictions. Some jurisdictions where you have to give a fingerprint like I did when I was an assistant D.A., a prosecutor.
Who else is in APHIS? Out to you, Brent Brown. Who else makes up the APHIS data bank?
BROWN: Well, anybody that`s worked in security, for example, that has some type of license, anyone that`s been convicted of a crime in the past is going to be in the system. Anything that getting a gun, weapons permit --
GRACE: A lot of civil service, as well, that have to give fingerprints, Brent Brown, but I`ve got a feeling that prosecutors and civil servant are not going to be the pool in which cops are interested, as to looking for a killer that severs a head. And I guarantee you, whoever severed this human head, it`s not his first time at the rodeo. OK? You don`t just suddenly sever a head. This is something you kind of graduate to.
Out to the lines, Ariana, North Carolina. Hi, Ariana, what`s your question?
ARIANA, CALLER FROM NORTH CAROLINA: Hi, Nancy. Thanks for taking my call. I was just wondering if they have found any other parts of the body around the crime scene or around that area?
GRACE: Let`s go back to the crime scene. Bringing us the latest, Pat Lalama from Investigation Discovery, also with her there at the Hollywood Hill sign, on that hiking trail where the human head has been found, Dylan Howard, senior executive editor, radaronline.com.
What about it, Pat? Have the cadaver dogs had any success?
PAT LALAMA, INVESTIGATION DISCOVERY: We don`t know. I just spoke to a commander in charge shortly before we went on the air. He said absolutely nothing is new but what I just noticed a minute ago going behind this gate with all the -- police traffic going in and out throughout the morning, they just brought in an unusual contraption. It was like a generator with a water hose -- my colleague Dylan described it as a water hose attached.
I have no idea, perhaps one of your police experts could explain what they would use that for. Because we`ve got a caravan of detective, we`ve got cadavers, we`ve got helicopters, we`ve got utility vehicles that have big wheels on them that look like golf carts, and now we`ve got this contraption with the water hose on it.
GRACE: You know, let`s analyze whether other parts of the body are going to be there.
Pat Brown, if the head is in a plastic bag and according to you discarded, according to me strategically placed there on a hiking trail beneath the Hollywood Hills sign, because why would you go through the effort of severing the head, putting it in a plastic bag? Why not just leave the body there?
PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER, AUTHOR OF "THE PROFILER": The other body parts are going to be there, probably not right there. What I think usually happens in these cases is the person is killed in an apartment and that person cannot remove the body, has no car, chops them into pieces and disposes them in different places. The head was just disposed there.
GRACE: You know, to Ellie Jostad, the timing of the body being left there, the head. It`s not a body. It`s a severed human head. We`re waiting right now to confirm details. We`re getting reports about details on the head but we`re waiting to confirm them.
Ellie, the head found around 2:30 p.m. Given the California rush traffic early in the morning that extends well until 10:00 a.m., what does this mean about when the head was placed there?
ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE CHIEF EDITORIAL PRODUCER: Right. Well, we`ve got a very narrow window of time, Nancy. Like you said, about 10:00 until 2:30 p.m. You know places like this hiking trails tend to be more busy in the morning. People are walking their dogs, they`re getting some exercise in before they have to go to work. So narrow time frame here.
GRACE: Back to Dr. Bill Manion, medical examiner joining us tonight out of Philadelphia.
Dr. Manion, according to the police, the head is, quote, "fresh." Let me ask you, given the temperature conditions in California, when do you think the murder occurred?
DR. BILL MANION, M.D., MEDICAL EXAMINER, BURLINGTON COUNTY, NJ: Well, probably within the 12 hours of the head being found. I think with the temperature within 12 hours, 18 hours you begin to get some softening, some decomp, and we`ve heard that there is no skin slough, no skin decomposition, no hair slough. So I imagine --
GRACE: What is that? What do you say slough? What is that?
MANION: Slough is where the tissue begins to fall. The muscle attachments, the skin begins to fall off this -- the muscle attachments or the bone attachments.
GRACE: Dr. Manion, what if the head had been frozen?
MANION: Well, that`s possible. And there have been cases like that where we`ve discovered parts of bodies that had been frozen and we`re able to actually get convictions because we discovered other body parts found in freezers. If we look at this tissue under the microscope, we can see changes where the cells were expanded by ice crystals and we would be able to tell that this head had been frozen.
And in fact, it may have been murdered years ago, frozen, and then dropped in a site and there have actually been cases like that where we figured that out.
GRACE: So the fact that cops the naked eye believe the head is, quote, "fresh," may not necessarily be true.
We are taking your calls there outside the Hollywood Hills sign.
Pat Lalama, Dylan Howard, and our all-star line-up. A human head, severed now found by two female dog walkers just beneath the iconic Hollywood sign in Hollywood Hills.
As we go to break, I want to remind you about our family album, showcasing your family photos from iReport. New Brunswick, Canadian friends, Lavoie family. Mom Tammy proved the doctors wrong when she gave birth to Lucas and Macarah. He dreams of playing in the NFL, she of dancing and singing on stage.
Share your favorite photos with us through "iReport Family." Go to hlnTV/Nancygrace and click on "Nancy`s Family Album."
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Searchers with cadaver dogs look for more human remains.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: After two women discovered a severed head.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: A severed human head.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The head appears to be rather new.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Found underneath the world famous Hollywood sign.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: These trails are often pounded with hikers.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Do you hike up here a lot?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sure, all the time.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was not far off the trail.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s disturbing.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The women were walking their dogs when they discovered a plastic bag.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Two of the dogs begin to play with the bag. At some point the object came out of the bag.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: A severed head.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: A severed human head.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They discovered that it was a head.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Detectives guard these rugged hills and search again for additional human remains.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are there at the Hollywood Hills sign, the sign looking down on the city itself. A severed human head found on a hiking trail just beneath the sign by two female dog walkers. Just after rush hour. In the last hours police cordoned off the area and cadaver dogs scouring trees and brushy areas for the rest of the body that goes with the human head.
Back to Dylan Howard, senior executive editor, Radaronline.com.
Dylan, I`m trying to get an idea of whether there are surveillance cameras in the backyard of any of those homes?
DYLAN HOWARD, SENIOR EXECUTIVE EDITOR, RADARONLINE.COM: There certainly various cameras around the homes, and even though the body was -- the head was found just behind us, essentially it`s going to be difficult for investigators to establish whether or not anything is on those videos.
And especially considering that there`s a steady stream of people that use this park to walk their dogs and go for hikes every single day. For example, Nancy, just this -- just this morning when I was here and throughout the course of today, we`ve been seeing a steady stream of people being turned away by LAPD detectives, given that this entire area behind us has been cordoned off this part of the crime scene.
GRACE: Dylan Howard, could you point behind you and see if the camera can pan to where the head was found? You keep saying behind you, but where?
HOWARD: It`s not far. Just behind this scene. You`ll see that this is the main entrance to the park here. It`s closed at sunset which is an important thing to know. The park is actually closed from sunset until sunrise. So that narrows the gap from where the potential killer may have been able to dispose of the head. But just behind the --
GRACE: Dylan, Dylan, Dylan. You really think a murderer that severs a head gives a flying pig about that little sign that says park closes at sunset? Go ahead.
HOWARD: Well, you kind of actually into that, you kind of actually into that unless you scale the fence which of course is a possibility in this scenario. But it is a heavily fortified gate areas so indeed if someone was to dispose of a head at any given time --
GRACE: Or in case you -- or unless you walk around that brick siding to the fence, in between the brick and the trees that I can see right behind you?
HOWARD: You would have to be almost a gymnast, Nancy. It`s very difficult to climb up those areas. We`re talking about deep and steep bush area around here.
GRACE: Dylan, right now police there, cadaver dogs, crime scene techs. Has anyone gone over the fence in the other direction to where the homes are? Is there any connection between them and the head?
HOWARD: That we don`t know. Law enforcement authorities haven`t been door-knocking that we`ve seen at any particular point here. And we`re talking about homes and streets just around this area. Police are -- neighbors are indeed gathering around this area. But, no, law enforcement authorities haven`t been going house to house at this point.
They are focusing their attention there and I don`t know whether you can hear as well, Nancy, but there`s also a police helicopter flying above which is also trying to survey this huge area that is essentially the crime scene, attempting to find that -- the rest of the body.
GRACE: We are taking your calls, out to Diana in Florida. Hi, Diana. What`s your question?
DIANA, CALLER FROM FLORIDA: Hi, Nancy. How long was the head there before it was found?
GRACE: To Ellie Jostad, based on what we know, it would have most likely been after 10:00 a.m. and before 2:30 p.m. when it was actually discovered. Why?
JOSTAD: Right, Nancy. Well, police don`t think that it was there any earlier because the mornings there are very busy at that park. As Dylan explained, it`s closed overnight so they think that between the time it opened and between the time when these women walked past it at 2:30 is the time that -- or rather the time that the park got less busy and when these women found it. Because earlier visitors to the park would have found it earlier in the day. So during --
GRACE: And again, based on what Dr. Bill Manion has told us, that the possibility the head could have been severed months ago or longer if frozen. That`s an outside chance. But it`s possible. On the other hand, if it were not frozen, he says the murder would have occurred in the past 12 hours.
Out to Pat Lalama, tell me, what are police doing now to publicize the discovery? What, if anything, to identify the victim?
LALAMA: They`ve been very, very open with us, the media, which is helpful. I think it`s very incumbent upon them to figure out who this person is for obvious reasons. I think the important thing for them is to find out if there have been any missing persons reports over the last 48 hours. Everybody in the area, everyone in L.A. is talking about this.
My prediction is that they`ll figure it out sooner rather than later. And one thing I want to mention is that it was 85 degrees here a couple of days ago. So I -- my guess is that we`re not going to have a frozen head.
GRACE: To Karina in California and PS, Pat, we were discussing freezing as in putting it in the freezer, not freezing due to subzero temperatures in the Hollywood Hills.
Karina in California, hi, what`s your question?
KARINA, CALLER FROM CALIFORNIA: Hi. My question for you, Nancy, is the way that they found this -- the human head, are they able to tell yet if it`s a female or a male? Is there hair on the head? That`s it.
GRACE: As a matter of fact, we are getting in reports that the victim is in fact a male. Are you getting the same report?
JOSTAD: Right, Nancy. That`s what we`re hearing, Nancy.
GRACE: What more do we know, Elle?
JOSTAD: We also know that they believe that this victim is likely between about 40 and 50 years old, is Caucasian, and they are actually working to put together a sketch of that head to try to distribute that picture and have people determine who the person is.
GRACE: Out to the lines, Jason, Canada. Hi, Jason, what`s your question?
JASON, CALLER FROM CANADA: Hi, Nancy. How are you?
GRACE: I`m good, dear.
JASON: That`s good. Yes. My question was really just asked there. I just wanted to know if it was an adult or child`s head.
GRACE: We know that is an adult. We know now that it is Caucasian. And we believe it to be male.
We are taking your calls. To Dylan Howard, a lot of crime analysts are suggesting, as you mentioned earlier, that this is, quote, "a message" to be sent. I`m not so sure that I buy into that. That sounds more like stuff of a movie as opposed to real life. Why are you saying that?
HOWARD: Well, indeed we don`t see crimes like this in this particular area of Los Angeles, indeed we don`t see crimes like that anywhere in Los Angeles. This is a particularly low-crime area, dotted with multi-million dollar homes. It is something ripped from the pages of a Hollywood script.
GRACE: Well, FYI, Dylan, rich people commit murders, too.
Everyone, to tonight`s case alert, middle school teacher Amy Patterson went missing July 2011. After claims she dies in a head-on crash, her SUV turns up without a scratch, but no body ever found. Ex-husband Daniel Proctor, is a suspect, but still no charges.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We were talking about going back to school. They renewed her contract, how much fun decorating the rooms.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: A gruesome scene like this.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Human head in a plastic bag.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Now a homicide investigation.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: When the disturbing discovery was made.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Just off a hiking trail in the mid-afternoon.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That`s a little bit odd.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was shocked.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: A popular place for exercise.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Under the famous Hollywood sign.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Processing the crime scene, looking for more clues and collecting evidence.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are live there at the Hollywood sign, the iconic sign in the Hollywood Hills, that looks down on the city of Hollywood itself. It`s cordoned off by yellow crime scene tape as cadaver dogs scour the area to find hopefully the body that matches the severed head.
Two female dog walkers stumble upon the head when the dogs alert to it first and actually begin playing with the object.
Out to the lines, Donna in Kansas, hi, Donna, what`s your question?
DONNA, CALLER FROM KANSAS: Well, hi, Nancy, I`ve liked you for years, I never thought I`d ever get a chance to talk to you.
GRACE: Well, thank you, thank you very much.
DONNA: My questions is, obviously, they are going to plan on doing DNA on the head.
GRACE: Right.
DONNA: Is there some kind of a database or something they use that they could connect this person with?
GRACE: Well, as a matter of fact, there is a DNA database. The problem with the DNA database is that it`s made up largely of felons that are forced to give DNA, so unless the victim has been a convicted felon in the past, you`re not going to get a DNA match, so they will compare it to that and they can easily extract DNA from it.
Everyone, the tip line, 877-527-3247. It`s a 24-hour anonymous tip line.
Let`s stop and remember Army 1st Sergeant Christopher Rafferty, 37, Brownsville, Pennsylvania, killed Afghanistan. Awarded Purple Heart and the De Fleury Medal. Only three soldiers each year given the honor. Loved golf, fishing, drums, karaoke, line dancing, listening to Motown, remembered for a generous heart. Leaves behind mother Sandra, sisters Deana and Allyson, widow Wendy, children Samantha and Kayla.
Christopher Rafferty, American hero.
Thanks to our guest, but especially you for being with us. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern, and until then, good night, friend.
END
