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Nancy Grace

Missing 3-Year-Old`s Skeleton Found Under Mother`s Home

Aired January 25, 2012 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, live, Colorado. Investigators stunned after a tip leads them to crawl underneath a home

only to discover the tiny remains of a 3-year-old baby boy.

Bombshell tonight. We ID those remains as 3-year-old Caleb Pacheco. We learn family and friend and relatives begging child services to look for

this boy, begging DFACS not to give Caleb back to his mother, literally begging in tears. But what do they do? The Logan County Department of

Social Services gives Caleb back. And now he`s dead. And tonight, my question to you is, what are we going to do about it?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (on-camera): The family (ph) hadn`t seen 3-year-old Caleb in over a year and begged authorities for help.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He had a life here. It wasn`t just we were baby-sitting him. He literally lived with us.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But (ph) they would find a truly disturbing and shocking discovery, the body of little 3-year-old Caleb underneath the home

where he lived.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The family of Caleb Pacheco says there were obvious signs that Juanita Kinze (ph) was unfit to be a mother.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She was asking me to watch him, to party at night.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Kinze came for her son, even though Caleb tried to communicate to everybody that he didn`t want to go.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He got angry. Angry. I`ve never seen a little kid so angry before.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Still, Kinze got her way and would end up taking Caleb forever.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police reveal the mother allegedly tells her ex- boyfriend that she made a mistake and her son is gone. When the boyfriend asked what she meant, the mother allegedly tells him her 3-year-old little

boy was, quote, "with God."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(A PORTION OF THIS TRANSCRIPT HAS BEEN REMOVED)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Bombshell tonight. Investigators stunned when a tip leads them

to crawl underneath a home, only to discover the tiny remains of a 3-year- old baby boy. Tonight, we ID those remains as 3-year-old Caleb Pacheco. We also learn family, neighbors, relatives, friends begging in tears for

the DFACS -- Department of Family and Children`s Services -- not to give the boy to his mother, don`t give him back to his mother. Well, of course,

they did, and now the baby is dead, under the home.

We are taking your calls. To Nia Bender, anchor, KFKA. Nia, cops, investigators up under a home looking as a result of a tip. What happened?

What did they find?

NIA BENDER, KFKA RADIO (via telephone): What they ended up finding was badly decomposed remains of 3-year-old Caleb Pacheco, that at this

point, they`re still trying to determine exactly what his cause of death was.

GRACE: Have they absolutely identified his remains, Nia?

BENDER: Yes, they have.

GRACE: I`m disgusted. Nia, I`m absolutely disgusted. What was the name of this, Logan County, Clark, Logan County Social Services. You had a

fleet of people begging them to investigate his whereabouts. They said, Oh, we can`t find Mommy. We don`t know her LKA, last known address. You

know what? If the tax man can find her, they can find her when a child`s life is at stake. They failed miserably.

What did this child endure before his death? That`s what I want to know. And we`re going to be flashing the phone numbers for you to have an

impact to stand up and make a difference. There you go, Senator Bennet, there you go, Senator Udall, there you go, AG`s office. Let`s get some

action. We`re paying you. Now, do what we want you to do! Make a difference!

I want to go to Lieutenant Joe McBride, but first back to you, Nia Bender. When they find the remains under the home, there were fears

confirmed about where is baby Caleb. How were the remains hidden? Were they packaged? Were they wrapped? Were they in a shallow grave? What can

you tell me about what investigators found under the home?

BENDER: What they found was the little boy was wrapped in, like, plastic bags and a blanket, with a few of his items nearby.

GRACE: You know, that`s something I don`t quite get. Quickly, to you, Caryn Stark. We saw this in the tot mom case and I see it in a lot of

other child murders, where the child will be murdered, number one, and then buried with a favorite blanket, in that case, the Winnie-the-Pooh blanket,

in this case, Caleb`s favorite blanket, PJs.

Why? Why does a cold-blooded killer then try to soften it by burying the baby with his blanket?

CARYN STARK, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: You can see a sign here, Nancy, of someone who has, like, a split personality, very schizoid, because the

baby is buried in the blanket, which makes you feel like perhaps there`s attachment, but then if you keep looking, there`s plastic over all of that,

which is like a piece of meat. And so it`s kind of -- this torn between, I care about this baby, but I could care less. It`s like a tree (ph).

GRACE: OK, so what I`m saying is break it down for me.

STARK: Yes, Nancy.

GRACE: I`m just a JD, not an MD. They killed the baby. They kill the baby, but then they want to dispose of the body with its favorite

blanket. What does it mean to a shrink like you?

STARK: Well, I feel like it`s like a doll. You know, when you play with a doll and a little girl plays with a doll, she wants to have it in

its favorite blanket, but knows that it`s not a real baby. This is not a real baby to her because he never would have been...

GRACE: Well...

STARK: ... (INAUDIBLE) killed it, put the blanket and then...

GRACE: You know, Caryn...

STARK: ... plastic.

GRACE: Caryn? Caryn?

STARK: Yes? Nancy, Nancy?

GRACE: I get it. I get it. I know what it says to you. But what it says to me is Mommy did it. That`s what it says to me because who else is

going to, A, know the favorite blanket and B, bury the baby, hide the baby`s body with its baby blanket?

To Natisha Lance, on the story. Natisha, what led cops to go crawl up under a home?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, Nancy, apparently, someone had posted something on FaceBook. A concerned citizen saw this and that`s

when they contacted authorities. When authorities were contacted, they alerted all of the local agencies in the Colorado area, and within a week`s

time, Juanita Kinze was located from another disturbance (ph) that was in the Denver area. Police came there. Apparently, she was with paramedics.

And that is when she said her child was dead.

GRACE: Joining me right now, special guest, Lieutenant Joe McBride with the Logan County sheriff`s office. He`s a spokesman for them.

Lieutenant, thank you for being with us. I can only imagine that this is the sheriff`s worst nightmare, the thing they -- the call they don`t want

to take is to find a child`s body, all right, especially possibly at the hands of its own mother.

What can you tell us about the case, Lieutenant?

LT. JOE MCBRIDE, LOGAN COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE (via telephone): Well, the amount that I can tell you is limited due to the gag order that`s put

in place on it.

GRACE: Right.

MCBRIDE: Basically, as you`ve heard, initially, it came through from a citizen regarding the FaceBook page that was made for Caleb Pacheco.

After we received that information and began looking into the matter, contacting local jurisdictions in an attempt to locate Juanita Kinze...

GRACE: The mom.

MCBRIDE: ... on Sunday, we were able to basically obtain enough information to get a search warrant for the property in Sterling.

GRACE: Lieutenant McBride, I know that you`ve had a gag order slapped on you, which is basically when a judge says nobody can talk that`s

associated with this case. But luckily, I`m not part of that gag order, and I want answers. I want to know why, when relatives begged DFACS, Don`t

give Caleb back to his mother -- every time she even bothers to visit him, he gets agitated and cries and gets angry every time she comes to visit.

He was with the aunt.

Why? Why did they take the baby away from an aunt that loved him, stick him back with a mom that I believe killed him, Lieutenant McBride?

Why did social services do that?

MCBRIDE: Well, there`s -- there`s -- it`s kind of -- I`ve been explaining to other, you know, media sources and things like that, that

this case for us initially had come in last week. This isn`t -- hasn`t been a case that we`ve had for a while.

And on any death, there`s a lot of investigation that takes place. With this particular case, it had a move so quickly that there`s a lot of

kind of back-end investigation going on now. With the other -- you know, other agencies` involvements, I really don`t know and I can`t comment on

why or what (INAUDIBLE)

GRACE: OK. All right. So I get it, Lieutenant. The sheriffs are just getting it now. But every time I look at this child`s face, it looks

like he`s looking at me. And I wonder if any of you feel that way about, what are you going to do now? Why didn`t you help me? And that`s what I`m

wondering tonight.

Back to you, Nia Bender, anchor, KFKA. Nia, thank you for being with us. You have relatives begging social services not to hand the baby back

over to the mother. Why did they do it, Nia?

BENDER: Well, originally, I think that social services -- obviously, they want to return a child to its mother.

GRACE: Why? Why? Why is it obvious that the mother gets the baby back?

BENDER: Glaringly obvious. And the aunt, Yolanda (ph) Kinze Graper (ph), had asked repeatedly not -- she begged to not have him returned to

the mother because of the issues she has. But because the mother insisted, they went ahead and released him.

GRACE: You know, last night, I went and got in bed with the twins and slept between them. And I laid there and just held them until they fell

asleep. They are so precious! Nobody loved this child except the aunt. She begged DFACS not to give the baby back to its mother. A citizen`s tip

leads sheriffs to crawl under a house, and finally baby Caleb is found. But he`s dead. Thanks, DFACS!

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Wrapped in blankets and a plastic bag, the remains of a young boy believed to be 3-year-old Caleb Pacheco. Logan County court

documents say Kinze told Joshua Briggs (ph), her ex-boyfriend in jail on an unrelated case, she made a mistake and Caleb was with God. Briggs

described a horrible odor (INAUDIBLE) the smell of a decomposing body. Denver police found Juanita over the weekend, high on meth, saying her son

was dead.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) feeling very sickening and sad to think that that`s where he was left. Everybody loved Caleb, and he

couldn`t get enough of all of us. He was a sweet baby, a sweet, sweet boy that wasn`t handed the best deal in life. Want to remember the sweet

smile. I would have never in a million years thought that it would come to this.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: We are taking your calls. A citizen`s tip leads investigators to crawl up under a house, only to discover the tiny remains of 3-year-old

Caleb. Tonight -- Liz, please flash up the phone numbers for not only the attorney general, but the senators and representatives in the area.

Why does social services literally get away with murder? In my mind, this mom was like a loaded gun, a loaded .9-millimeter, and putting a child

alone in the room with a 9. That`s what this was when they gave this boy back to the mother. And then after handing the boy back over to the

mother, when the aunt kept saying, Where is he, where is he, I can`t find him, they go, Oh, yes, we don`t know her LKA, last known address. Can`t

find her. Case closed. The baby is dead. When will DFACS be held accountable?

Out to the lines. Barb in Maryland. Hi, Barb. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. I really didn`t have a question, more of a comment.

GRACE: OK.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just -- I truly believe that this is just a ridiculous thing, I mean, that they just really dropped the ball here. I

mean, a year? Come on. How would you not know a child has been gone for a year? I mean, it just doesn`t make any sense. I mean, and you know, I

thought the laws were out there to protect our children, and it just seems like that`s just not the way it`s going. I`ve had my own run-ins with

stuff like this, and I just -- this is just truly unbelievable.

GRACE: Let`s go out to Lisa Lockwood, former police detective, author of "Undercover Angel." Lisa, we`ve all seen it, how children get lost in

the shuffle. What happened?

LISA LOCKWOOD, FMR. POLICE DETECTIVE: You know, the protocol with DCFS, the protocol with missing children reports -- could the family have

reported that she was missing, the daughter was missing? And then what happens is, the police will say, She has every right to go on with her

life. Who`s to say she`s missing or endangered?

So the whole bureaucracy tied to that is what the issue is. Same thing with DCFS. They have to look at the case. Why is this child in

danger? What can you bring here to prove that? So I`m hoping the protocol`s going to change regarding that because this is absolutely an

atrocity.

GRACE: Let`s go back to what investigators found under the home. With us, Heather Walsh-Haney, forensic anthropologist, Florida Gulf Coast

University. Heather, right now, we are waiting to find out more. Will they be able to determine a cause of death? What do you make of the way

the remains were wrapped in plastic bagging, as well as the child`s favorite blanket? How can they tell it`s the child without a DNA match?

What can you tell us, Heather?

HEATHER WALSH-HANEY, FORENSIC ANTHROPOLOGIST: Well, I think as far as the circumstances surrounding the discovery of the case, the fact that he

was in the blanket, in the plastic bag and buried, that bodes well for forensic lines of evidence to be collected.

They can run tox on any of the tissues that have been preserved. They`ll be able to see if any of the mother`s methamphetamine had made it

into the child`s bloodstream. They`ll be able to do a DNA and compare the paternal, the father`s DNA or the mother`s DNA to his DNA that they`ll pull

out of the soft tissue or the bone itself.

GRACE: As to determining whether it is a baby boy or a baby girl at 3 years of age, what did they look for, Heather Walsh-Haney, particularly in

a completely skeletonized set of remains?

WALSH-HANEY: Nancy, that`s the unfortunate part of this case, is that determining whether a toddler is male or female based on skeletonized

remains is nearly impossible. So we`ll need to do DNA to be sure.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She was asking me to watch him, to party at night.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He had a life here. It wasn`t just we were baby-sitting him. He literally lived with us.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s a sick feeling, very sickening and sad.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Wrapped in blankets and a plastic bag, the remains of a young boy believed to be 3-year-old Caleb Pacheco.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police find skeletonized remains underneath the home where the little boy lived.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Logan County deputies say a mother hid her secret.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: His mother in custody, charged with murder.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Family members grew suspicious of Juanita`s stories about where Caleb was.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think that that`s where he was left.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And Juanita, who sits in jail, accused of murdering her son.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: This after family, friends, relatives looked for the child for over a year. DFACS -- department of family and children`s services -- say

they can`t find the mom.

Unleash the lawyers, Kirby Clements, Penny Douglas Furr, both renowned defense attorneys. OK, first to you Kirby. Don`t even start with me about

insanity because the mom not only, in mind, murdered the child, told her boyfriend she had an accident with Caleb, but she kept him buried under the

house for over a year. And then when she moved out, after having concealed the crime for all this time, she was showing specific concerns about what

was under the home. So go ahead, give me your best defense, Kirby.

KIRBY CLEMENTS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, all you have right now is that the mother is guilty of concealing the death of another person. You

haven`t shown me manner of death. You haven`t shown me cause of death, time of death, nothing about this other than the fact that that child is

dead. That child could have died at the hands of the boyfriend. That child could have choked on something. We don`t know. Maybe she handled

his death badly, but she was not the instrument of the death.

GRACE: Question to you, Kirby.

CLEMENTS: Ask me.

GRACE: I think I know the answer, but rule number one of trial strategy, never ask a question you don`t know the answer to. How many

children do you have?

CLEMENTS: Two.

GRACE: Have you ever taken them to the ER for any reason?

CLEMENTS: Yes.

GRACE: What was the reason, Kirby?

CLEMENTS: The doctor that I spoke to on the phone said take them to the ER, so I took them there.

GRACE: What, did they have a break? Did they have a fever? What was the reason?

CLEMENTS: Oh, no, they had -- I think they had a fever. But you know, like I say, I may be a great parent...

GRACE: Is there a reason, Kirby...

CLEMENTS: Yes?

GRACE: ... that you didn`t just bury them under the house?

CLEMENTS: Well, they didn`t die.

GRACE: My point is you go to 911 or you go to the ER when your child exhibits an illness or a life-threatening situation.

CLEMENTS: Exactly.

GRACE: So Penny Douglas Furr, why do you -- would you even assume this was a natural cause of death?

PENNY DOUGLAS FURR, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, it could have been. We don`t know until they complete...

GRACE: Oh, good Lord in heaven!

FURR: We don`t know how the child died.

GRACE: I remember when your dog, your Rottweiler, passed away, you grieved. You`re probably still grieving for over a year.

FURR: I am. I am.

GRACE: And there`s no way you would have just thrown the dog under the house to let it rot!

FURR: No. Obviously, she did that. But the issue is, did she neglect the kid or did she kill the kid?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Find a truly disturbing and shocking discovery.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Everybody loved Caleb, and he couldn`t get enough of all of us.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Juanita Kinze partied on drugs and alcohol.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Not making good choices.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The mother is behind bars.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The family hadn`t seen 3-year-old Caleb in over a year and begged authorities for help.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He had a life here. It wasn`t just we were baby-sitting him. He literally lived with us.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: What they would find a truly disturbing and shocking discovery. The body of little 3-year-old Caleb underneath the

home where he lived.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The family of Caleb Pacheco`s says there were obvious signs that Juanita Kinzie was unfit to be a mother.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She was asking me to watch him to party at night.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Kinzie came for her son even though Caleb tried to communicate to everybody that he didn`t want to go.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He got angry, angry. I have never seen a little kid so angry before.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Still, Kinzie got her way and would end up taking Caleb forever.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Police revealed a mother allegedly tells her ex-boyfriend that she made a mistake and her son is gone. When the

boyfriend asked what she meant, the mother allegedly tells him her 3-year- old little boy was, quote, "with God."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NANCY GRACE, HLN HOST: It`s terrible. I can hardly even stand to look at this child`s face and think about the way that our justice system

failed him. Police are led by a tip to crawl underneath a house where they find the remains, the skeletonized remains of 3-year-old Caleb.

For over a year, friends, family, relatives and neighbors have been begging DFACS, Department of Family and Children Services, to find Caleb.

Before that they had begged in tears, literally in tears, not to hand the boy back to his mother. Of course they did. And now the boy is dead.

To Dr. Charles Sophy, he is the medical director of the L.A. County of Department of Child and Family Services. He is with DFACS. The author of

"Side by Side" joining us from L.A.

Dr. Sophy, I know you -- in a lot of different context I know you are extremely learned. I know that you give 200 percent to your job. But

bottom line, Dr. Sophy, you are with DFACS and I hold DFACS responsible for this child`s death. Right along with the mother.

What if any responsibility does social services bear for giving -- just handing the child over to a killer?

DR. CHARLES SOPHY, D.O., MEDICAL DIRECTOR, L.A. CO. DIRECTOR, DEPARTMENT OF CHILDREN AND FAMILY SERVICES: Well, you`re 100 percent

right. I think the issue is we have to find out if that was a closed case with them or not. With the agency. If it was an open case they had a

responsibility to follow-up and find out where that child was because they have to do a regularly scheduled monthly home visit.

GRACE: But Dr. Sophy --

SOPHY: They weren`t --

GRACE: What I`m asking is why hand the child over to start with back to the mother?

SOPHY: Well --

GRACE: You got the aunt, the child has been living with the aunt, the aunt is happy, the child is happy, the aunt begging, don`t take the child

away, don`t give it back to the mother. They did it anyway.

SOPHY: I know, I get that, but here`s the issue. We get -- we get these children into a safe, stable environment away from a parent that

really isn`t able to do what they need to do or keeping the kid safe. But then we have to give a parent a chance to step up and get themselves

together.

And many parents -- and it seems like from what I read in this case, that she was a drug addict -- get themselves together, they get clean or

they go to a program, they check off the list that you`re supposed to do, and then you get your kid back because every kid should be with their

parents.

GRACE: Really? How about when the parent is a meth freak?

SOPHY: That`s the rule.

GRACE: How about that?

SOPHY: I fully agree, but everybody -- you know, the way the system works is that every child should be given the chance to be with their

family. And if they`re not given that chance, then we`re not really doing our job.

GRACE: Dr. Sophy, no offense, but you`re talking in circles. Why would you give the child a chance to be with its methed-out freak of a mom

that murders it? Why?

SOPHY: Because we take --

GRACE: Who wants that chance? And to me --

SOPHY: Well, because we take that --

GRACE: DFACS is not analyzing the case.

SOPHY: But we take the methed-out mother, we get her cleaned up as best as we can, and then we try to give her the chance to have her kid back

again. But the bottom line is we can`t oversee every kid and every parent that we`ve been involved with. We have to at certain points cut it off.

GRACE: Well, what about when you`ve got family, neighbors, friends, relatives saying, don`t give the baby back to the mother. Why in god`s

name would you give the child back to the mother?

SOPHY: We can`t just go by what somebody says even though they`re good solid relatives --

GRACE: Well, how about what the baby says?

SOPHY: -- is healthy and happier.

GRACE: How about what the baby says? I don`t want to go to my mom. What about that?

SOPHY: The child is 3 years old at that point.

GRACE: Yes?

SOPHY: So you have to be able to take a lot of these variables in context to be able to make a solid decision and safety and permanence has

to be the first of all of those. That`s to be the focus of the decision --

GRACE: You know what? I could not agree with him more.

SOPHY: The issue really is something as simple as can this mom get herself together and parent in a safe and effective way? And she probably

did enough for them to be able to give the child back. The issue here is you can give that child back, but you don`t have to take you`re eyeballs

off of them.

GRACE: You know what?

SOPHY: And you stay involved in their life. You could stay involved in their life for as long as you need to.

GRACE: There is just something so wrong with the scenario I`m hearing.

I want to go to Brad Lamm.

Liz, hook me up to board certified interventionist, author of "How to Help the One You Love," because handing a 3-year-old over to a meth freak,

I mean why would we give her the opportunity to murder this child?

I want to go back to Nia Bender, anchor with KFKA.

Nia, Sophy was talking about, was this an open case? Apparently it was because DFACS said they were trying to find her last known address.

NIA BENDER, NEWS ANCHOR, KFKA RADIO: They were. They were trying to get in touch with her. But she moved considerably and she said that she

moved most of the time to try to stay under the radar with social services and she was everywhere from Logan County to further south in Douglas County

down around Castle Rock. So she moved a lot.

GRACE: But Nia, they knew where she would go. They knew where she had moved. I mean it`s just across the county lines. How hard is it? And

let me guess, is she getting a government check?

BENDER: I am unsure if she`s getting any kind of a government check at this point.

GRACE: I guarantee you she was on probation or parole for something.

BENDER: Yes, she was.

GRACE: And if they can -- well, if they knew where she was, why didn`t child services know?

BENDER: Unknown. Tragic, but unknown.

GRACE: I`ll tell you why. I`ll tell you why. Here`s a news flash. They were too lazy and too sorry to bother to cross-check with paroles or

probation or government checks. They didn`t bother to pick the phone up and check it out. That`s how little they cared about 3-year-old Caleb.

That`s why they didn`t know.

With me right now, certified interventionist, author of "How to Help the One You Love," Brad Lamm.

Brad, to me, handing this baby over to a methed-out mom is like putting the baby alone in a room with a loaded nine -- a nine millimeter

berretta or Glock. But what were they thinking, Brad?

BRAD LAMM, CERTIFIED INTERVENTIONIST, AUTHOR OF "HOW TO HELP THE ONE YOU LOVE": You hit the nail on the head. And I`m so grateful that you`re

talking about this story because it`s something that everybody can relate to. We all have somebody who we see doing crazy things that put --

oftentimes put people`s lives at risk and we think we don`t have a voice.

And you do have a voice. Now the caller that you talked to that was the family member, I know that`s so hard to see what is now death and

destruction happening as a result of the addiction. Families have to get in there, don`t take no for an answer. Even if it means getting law

enforcement involved and camping out at the jail, really. The family has to have a voice and you can in the face of addiction.

GRACE: Well, here the family tried and tried desperately to protect the child. DFACS wouldn`t hear of it.

Out to the lines, Melissa. Hi, dear, what`s your question?

MELISSA, CALLER: Hi. I`m just calling because I have, like, I just have been listening here and there`s this few problems I think. First of

all, if so many people are concerned at the trial and about Jacob, then why wasn`t the visitation, like starting with visitation, if she was a meth

head then why did she have to do a drug test every two weeks for, like, child welfare I guess for the state?

My concern is this. How did she disappear so long with so many allegations?

GRACE: Good question. What do we know, to Natisha Lance?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Nancy, we don`t know much about that at this point. Unfortunately she was able to slide under the radar

and not only was DCF after her, but also her probation. So why wasn`t she being tested for drugs from them, too.

GRACE: We are taking your calls. Somehow DFACS couldn`t get it together to find where was baby Caleb. Well, with us tonight, Lt. Joe

McBride with Logan County Sheriffs Office. He`ll tell you where baby Caleb is. His skeletonized remains were found buried in his favorite blanket

under the house.

Thanks, DFACS.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The mother allegedly tells him her 3-year-old little boy was, quote, "with god."

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I didn`t know what to think.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Police revealed a mother allegedly tells her ex-boyfriend that she made a mistake.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Now the family is left to cope with the loss of Caleb.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The family of Caleb Pacheco says there were obvious signs that Juanita Kinzie was unfit to be a mother. The family

says Kinzie had drug and alcohol problems but watch little Caleb they did. A boy they loved like their own son. About a year ago, Kinzie came for her

son even though Caleb tried to communicate to everybody he didn`t want to go. Still, Kinzie got her way and would end up taking Caleb forever.

Months passed and frustration mounted. Finally the family`s worst suspicions were confirmed.

The family says police have told them this is -- the decomposed remains were found wrapped in a blanket.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Caleb Pacheco would have been 4 years old this summer.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Precisely the age of my children. This child found dead skeletonized under the home. Sheriffs led to find his tiny body and its

remains there.

Tonight, I want to know why the Department of Family and Children`s Services can literally get away with murder, and for any one who has an

interest in this, you have the right to go to court and contest child service`s decision. You don`t have to take it laying down, people. You

don`t.

Out to the lines, Fran in Florida. Hi, Fran, what`s your question?

FRAN, CALLER FROM FLORIDA: Hi, Nancy. I just have a comment. You know if our kids leave it up to DCF to cake care of them, they don`t have a

chance. My son has been fighting for temporary custody for the past three months for his son. He has Marion County visitation but he has proof that

his ex-wife is shooting up cocaine and smoking crack.

He has a Baker Act law enforcement, Baker Act, that he spoke in front of two different judges in the past month, saying that they found her at

someone`s house hallucinating off of drugs. Both judges have denied him temporary custody until the hearing because they said she needs to have a

chance to response.

GRACE: OK. Hold on. Hold on, Fran in Florida, I am going to keep my producers on the line with you. Please let me know the two judges that did

that and you may want to consider going in for an emergency civil order, not criminal. An emergency civil order contesting DFACS` decision. All

right?

Liz, please get Fran`s information if we can help her, I want to help her.

Very quickly, Brad Lamm, board certified interventionist, author of "How to Help the One You Love."

Brad, can a meth addict just turn it off? Like, my father one day, so, OK, I quit smoking, that was it, he went cold turkey. Can a meth

addict do that?

LAMM: They can and they do, but most people that quit and stay out of meth do it because they`ve got treatment of some sort, some type of

intensive treatment. Just like I did nine years ago, Nancy.

GRACE: Heather Walsh-Haney, forensic anthropologist. At this juncture, we had the defense attorneys Kirby Clements and Penny Douglass

Furr jumping up saying, he could have died from an accident. Yes, right.

Question, will we be able to tell due to the possible date of death, I mean it`s been over a year now, but will we be able to determine cause of

death, particularly if it was suffocation?

HEATHER WALSH-HANEY, FORENSIC ANTHROPOLOGIST, FLORIDA GULF COAST UNIVERSITY: If it was suffocation, it`s unlikely that we will see evidence

of cause of death. But there is probably a history of child abuse on little Caleb. We can look for markers on the cheek that show a failure to

thrive, mom might have been withholding food.

We can look for evidence of healed fractures on his bones that would point to a history of child abuse. That combined, with that child being

buried under the home, wrapped in a blanket, put into plastic speaks of homicide.

GRACE: Everyone, if you want to make a difference as do I, here are the numbers to call to get answers. Colorado AG, 866-4500, Colorado

senator, 224-5852, Colorado senator, 224-5941.

You ask, you demand justice.

(A PORTION OF THIS TRANSCRIPT HAS BEEN REMOVED)

GRACE: Everyone, let`s stop and remember Army Sergeant 1st Class John Morton, 31, Stanton, Kentucky, killed Afghanistan. Bronze Star, Purple

Heart, Meritorious Service Medal, Army Commendation. A history buff, loved reading and hiking. Wanted to be a history teacher and hike the entire

Appalachian trail.

Remembered as a father figure. Leaves behind parents Pearl and Jerry, sisters Paula and Dianna, widow Sarah, son Joshua, daughters Scarlet and

Olivia.

John Morton, America hero.

Thanks to our guests, but especially to you. And thank you to Vera Stewart at Very Vera, Augusta, Georgia, for the wonderful cakes you sent.

She learned to cook from her grandmother, also named Vera, and turned her family recipes into a business. Mail order and walk-in.

Happy birthday, Arizona friend, Jerra, mother of two and cat lover. Happy birthday, beautiful Jerra.

Everyone, I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern, and until then, good night, friend.

END