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Dr. Drew
Dark Side of the Oscars?; RFK`s Son Fights Off Nurse
Aired February 27, 2012 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: Here we go.
Hollywood`s biggest night shined a spotlight on more than just the year`s hottest films. From Angelina`s legs to Gerard`s alleged drinking and the Oscars` non-awards headlines points to possibly celebs in trouble.
And a member of the Kennedy Clan is in trouble, it involves a maternity ward, two nurses and disturbing surveillance video.
So let`s get started.
Millions of us watched last night, the Oscars, the glitz and the gowns were in full effect. But one leg and two arms got a little extra attention. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (voice-over): Tonight, the dark side of Oscar night in Hollywood. We`re pulling back the curtain behind the glamour, there are celebrities in danger. Stars swarmed the red carpet last night, but the spotlight wasn`t just on the winners.
Angelina Jolie`s over the top posing wasn`t the only thing that stood out. Her pin-thin arms and frail physique became a topic of concern on Twitter. According to the Academy, Jolie`s body ignited 3,399 tweets per minute.
Plus, Gerard Butler, straight out of rehab to the red carpet. The actor is back on the party circuit just days after being released from the Betty Ford Center.
And another celebrity gets arrested trying to crash an Oscar party.
Is Hollywood in harm`s way?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Now, a lot of people have actually been joking about Angelina, others are putting her at the top of the best dressed list.
I`m concerned. Now, joking about Angelina to me is like joking about Anna Nicole and joking about Whitney Houston. And you`ll be - I know what people are thinking, they`re thinking what right do you have to comment about this woman you don`t know, you`ve never met, you`ve never treated. And absolutely that is correct.
But I must tell you that now I am left with guilt for having watched Whitney Houston die and not spoken up more loudly, more vociferously. Watched Anna Nicole die and not spoken up.
I blame us - I blame all of us that are viewers that sit by and watch this as people get sick right in front of our eyes, and I`m seeing something here now that really concerns me and it needs to be addressed. I`m only concerned.
And these are - everyone loves these people. They are - listen, important people, and by all - by all judgments, people that we should admire. But we also - if we see them in harm`s way should be concerned.
Any - you know, again, to address people and say how do I have a right to do this, if Ryan Seacrest was on the red carpet yesterday saying, "You know, I`ve got a sore throat and a runny nose, and, you know, I`ve been a little achy a couple days," I could say it`s a viral upper respiratory infection.
It is no different for physicians when you see these other signs of trouble. You can sort of wonder, worry, and again, I don`t think we should sit by and watch this.
I`m joined now by actress Tracey Gold who herself had an issue with anorexia, now in recovery from that; Jen Heger from RadarOnline; and "SHOWBIZ TONIGHT" correspondent Kareen Wynter.
Now, I`m going to talk to you guys just in a second. But first, I want to look at some of Angelina`s history here. Again, this is how we understand what`s going on in the present, look at the history.
Angelina spoke to CBS` "60 Minutes" last year about - about how problematic her past life was. Now watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANGELINA JOLIE, ACTRESS: I went through heavy, darker times and I survived them, I didn`t die young, so I`m very lucky. There are other artists and people that didn`t survive certain things.
I think people can imagine that I did the most dangerous and I did the worst, and I admit for many reasons I shouldn`t be here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: OK. Now that - those are hints of severe psychiatric pathology, enough to be life threatening.
I`ve got an article from "US Weekly" on my pad, says why Angelina is starving herself. Now its unnamed sources saying that she is starving herself because if kids in Africa don`t eat, she is not going to eat. And that Brad is having to have doctors and nutritionists follow her around because she`s getting so dangerously malnourished, which my eye tells me she is.
In 2002, Angelina`s dad Jon Voight begged the star to seek psychiatric help. He told "Access Hollywood," quote, "Once in New York when I tried to get her help, she said you can`t help me, you can`t help my pain." I remember him appealing to people to please reach out and help his daughter. That was - that was that issue.
Then we have the bizarre behavior on the red carpet where she was kissing her brother. Let`s see a picture of that. She also was wearing a vial of blood around her neck when she was dating Billy Bob Thornton, and, again, she admits that she was in trouble during that time.
And I am not bringing stuff to shame this poor woman or to make - make this unpleasant for her, except for all of us as viewers to share in our concern.
Why don`t you take one more look now at Angelina when she was on Anderson Cooper`s show last month? And this is, by the way, she was under a lot of stress. She had just directed a movie. She was, you know, going out, trying to promote the movie. And she looks thin, but, you know, not as concerting as she did if you look at her last night at the Oscars. Let`s take a look at that.
When you see that she has temporal muscle wasting, which is a hallmark sign of malnutrition. She has a concavity where she`s putting her hair there. There should be actual muscle there. You can see it`s - and then the muscular wasting in the limbs. I mean that really concerns me.
Tracey, I want to go to you. Do you - are you concerned like I am? And I`m only raising this because I don`t want to see another celebrity go down and sit by and let that happen.
TRACEY GOLD, ACTRESS, BATTLED ANOREXIA: Well, you know, obviously last night when we watched it, we - everybody was like, oh, my God, she looked so thin. Arms are sort of the things that like just stood out to us.
You know, I am always very careful about speculating too much on what`s going on with a celebrity or labeling them anorexic because I don`t know. But I do know that when I saw her, she did look alarmingly thin.
PINSKY: Malnourished. Malnourished.
GOLD: Yes, absolutely. So when you -
PINSKY: The protein - so you see, again, the hallmark being the face, when you see muscular wasting on somebody`s face, see my face is kind of round. But when you see muscular wasting around the face, that is a hallmark sign of nutritional deficiency.
GOLD: And when you see somebody that thin, you do and your head go, what`s going on, something is wrong. It is just - it`s a red flag that something - whatever it is and we don`t know.
PINSKY: Well, Kareen you were there.
KAREEN WYNTER, CORRESPONDENT, HLN`S "SHOWBIZ TONIGHT": I was there. And call me crazy, this is mind boggling to me that we`re even having this discussion.
I`ve interviewed Angelina Jolie a couple times this year, and not to say that - look, this is the industry that we cover where it`s in to be thin. And the thinner you are, the more beautiful you are, but I did not see anything at all out of the ordinary last night.
When I interviewed her on the SAG carpet, at the Screen Actors Guild Awards recently, right there with Brad Pitt, I thought, OK, she`s a thin girl, but nothing out of the ordinary. I think we`re actually blowing this out of proportion.
And I`m seeing your look here. This is not a woman who`s malnourished. This is not a woman who is starving herself to death.
GOLD: Are you looking? Are you (INAUDIBLE)? You`re what`s wrong with society. That`s the truth.
WYNTER: Absolutely not.
GOLD: Let`s just put it out there.
WYNTER: I know you had your issues of eating disorders. I`m putting it out there now. In college I actually had an eating disorder, so don`t come on the set thinking that you are holier than thou, OK?
GOLD: Wow.
WYNTER: This is why I`m so passionate about this, because people mislabel people all the time. I became bulimic because of the people around me who said, you know what, you`re too chubby. I starved myself and almost died.
And this is the first time I`m sharing this because of your inflammatory statements. So I think you need to like simmer it down a little bit.
GOLD: I didn`t say anything inflammatory. Oh, my god.
WYNTER: Simmer it down a little bit. You are passing judgment on people.
GOLD: I am not - I`m not passing any judgment.
WYNTER: Yes, you are. You absolutely are in a rude way.
GOLD: I am not passing judgment. It`s an opinion actually.
WYNTER: In a rude way. You have no idea who I am. You have no idea about my past. You have a book -
GOLD: Wow.
WYNTER: -- and people know about you. So we are on here to -
GOLD: OK. You know what? I`m not here to be attacked by you, so you can settle down.
WYNTER: I am not attacking you.
(CROSSTALK)
GOLD: Absolutely, I`m not here to be attacked. I am not here to be attacked.
PINSKY: Slow down. Slow down.
WYNTER: And you need to calm down.
PINSKY: Kareen, I see malnutrition when I look at Angelina. Whether or not - I don`t know that it is from an eating disorder. I don`t know if it is from a depression. I don`t know if it is because she`s making a statement for starving kids in Africa, but I see malnutrition.
Jen Heger, what do you think?
JEN HEGER, LEGAL EDITOR, RADARONLINE.COM: Clearly. I mean, this -
GOLD: Watch out.
HEGER: I`m ready. I can handle it. Clearly, there`s something going wrong going on with Angelina Jolie. You know, we were talking in hair and makeup, you look at Angelina Jolie when she shot Tomb Raider. Very physically fit, athletic.
You look at her last night, her arms are - you`re absolutely correct, frail. She`s got a concave right here. Something clearly is going on with her. Is it anorexia, is there another psychiatric condition?
GOLD: Could it be stress, you know?
PINSKY: But here`s the deal.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: But here`s my thing. But you guys, for somebody to say I was through the darkest of darkest of psychiatric conditions, and I`ve heard of cutting, I`ve heard of substances, I`ve heard all these things that are all signs of chronic problem, I don`t see evidence of somebody that`s had really on-going treatment necessarily, but we don`t know, of course, but if she has - and maybe she stopped and maybe she`s having a recurrence. I mean, these tend to be recurrent problems.
HEGER: They are recurrent problems. Sources connected to the couple and Angelina Jolie directly have told me that she is not currently seeing any medical doctor or psychiatric professional.
PINSKY: Are they trying to get her to help?
HEGER: That I`ve been unable to confirm. But sources, there have been reports that Brad - Brad is very concerned with her health. I mean, she is literally disappearing before us.
And i think for you to say, you know, that she looked - she`s looked normal during the awards season this year, look at her last year. Let`s look at her the year before. Clearly, I think she is crying out for help.
WYNTER: Jen, this is an actress - and I`m not cutting you off. But this is an actress, who`s one of the most hardworking women in the business. She`s definitely in demand. She has six children. And Angelina Jolie -
GOLD: Nobody disagrees with that.
WYNTER: May I finish my sentence? She is a woman who is in such high demand, but she said numerous times in interviews, you know, I have six children, and when I go home, that work doesn`t end. Of course, she has nannies, but are we thinking about the fact that maybe she`s a little overworked? Maybe she`s just being mommy at home, traveling.
HEGER: But even then -
(CROSSTALK)
HEGER: But even then -
GOLD: But she`s perfect, right, she absolutely looks great. So you`re - you`re contradicting yourself.
WYNTER: I don`t think - I don`t think she looks anorexic. I don`t think she looked sick.
GOLD: I didn`t say she looked anorexic. I didn`t call her anorexic.
WYNTER: I don`t think that she had an issue. I think that this is reflective of what we see in Hollywood.
PINSKY: Last statement. Jen, go.
HEGER: Kareen, you know, she clearly is thin and she is clearly crying out for help. She`s a busy working mother. Doesn`t she want to be in the best possible physical shape emotionally and physically for the children?
PINSKY: But my question - but my question to all is if - let`s just say she is in trouble just for the sake of conversation, shouldn`t we be having these kinds of conversations? Should we be raising awareness?
WYNTER: Absolutely. But I think we just need to be careful in terms of what we label it.
PINSKY: I complete - I have no idea what it is. Tracey, you have no idea what it is?
GOLD: Yes, absolutely not.
PINSKY: None of us have an idea of what it is, but we`re looking at something and it`s a concern. And if we have looked at Demi Moore with the same critical eye and been concerned, maybe some of that - I don`t know - maybe she would have taken care of herself better. Maybe something would have happened before a crisis developed.
I`m just saying, it`s just about don`t you think we should have these conversations?
WYNTER: I think the comments about eat a burger, from one of the real housewives.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Correct. But there were thousands of - literally almost 4,000 Twitter comments a minute.
GOLD: But none of that was spoken at this table.
PINSKY: I agree. And we are trying to do this in a sensitive way tonight. We`ve got to take a little break.
Coming up, more on this issue. Plus, another actor I`m concerned about. Why was Gerard Butler hitting the Oscar parties just days after leaving rehab? Is that another person that could be in harm`s way? Remember Whitney holding that glass of champagne, that was a loaded gun. Does this guy have a weapon? And this is him - well, we don`t know. We`ll talk about that after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOLIE: Good evening. Legend has it -
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That was Angelina Jolie at last night`s Academy Awards on ABC. She has been topping all of the best dressed lists, but, you know, there`s some concerns there, the concerns that something might be wrong.
I`m back with actress Tracey Gold, HLN`s "SHOWBIZ TONIGHT" correspondent Kareen Wynter and I`m joined by Clinical Psychologist Dr. Seth Meyers.
Kareen, something about Tracey pushed your buttons. She did not come here with the intent of having a fight. But you bring up a very important point about Angelina. We are not in position to make a diagnosis. You shared your concern that we`re going too far with this conversation.
WYNTER: I think it`s easy when you look at the tabloid, magazines, when you look at all the websites out there, and all of the tweets yesterday that just exploded when this woman walked on stage, it`s easy for people to make those comments, you know, behind the scenes.
PINSKY: And Tracey, if - if she does have a problem that we`re looking at somebody in trouble again, having all those tweets are certainly not going to help her.
GOLD: No, absolutely not. And it`s why, you know, when you bring up a discussion like this, you have to make it very clear that we are not diagnosing, we don`t know.
PINSKY: We`re just raising concern.
GOLD: Absolutely.
PINSKY: And I`m raising it mostly out of guilt frankly for not having been more outspoken about the people that I saw going down before.
No one gets more abused on Twitter than me, how dare you do that? Now, I feel guilty for not having done more for the people that I saw going down like Whitney Houston.
Seth Meyers, I asked you to come on here because as you say you see what I`m seeing.
SETH MEYERS, LICENSED CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Absolutely. You know, I disagree with you. I think you`re right that we don`t need to give a formal Axis 1 diagnosis on someone`s, you know, medical condition that we haven`t assessed, but there`s no question that she appears dangerously thin.
And I think that we need to see her thinness in light of her - the context of her overall life, right? Where there -
PINSKY: Right. That`s why I brought up that early conversation about history. When we`re doing an assessment, we look at the history. The history is she had life threatening by her own description psychiatric problems early in her life.
We have reports from Jen Heger now that people are concerned and trying to get her treatment, she is not in treatment. Isn`t that a medical emergency, just that story for anybody? Forget it`s Angelina, it`s Joan Smith in Wisconsin, that`s somebody in real trouble.
MEYERS: Yes. When you look back at somebody`s history and you see extreme behaviors, whether it`s cutting which she has admitted to having done in the past, when you see the number of children that she`s amassed in such a short amount of time, you`re talking about somebody that really goes to extremes quite easily.
And so when you see someone drop in weight like that, I think that it is smart and protective to care and to worry.
PINSKY: Kareen?
WYNTER: I - I just disagree. I mean, look at Kelly Ripa when she exploded on the scene with "Live with Regis." You know, she was healthy Kelly from the soaps, had some meat on her, you know, had a couple more children, became really thin. And I think people were discussing it at that time.
And if you look at her body back then to compared to how it is now, it is completely different.
PINSKY: I wondered if she had exercise anorexia, which is something -
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: And by the way, how do we know - I have exercise anorexia. These are common things when people do that. And she looks like that`s what she does.
I`m not diagnosing her, but I`m saying, I have my concerned eye if it kept going down, I`d be like, we would be talking about her now, too.
GOLD: She`s maintained it for a long time.
PINSKY: She`s maintained it and she had no history that we know of.
WYNTER: I think that just from the perspective of someone who covers Hollywood and there`s so many stars who are thin, I`m not saying it`s right. I`m not sitting here saying everybody lose 15 pounds, that`s not it.
But looking at her weight over the last several months and my sitting here saying, oh, my gosh, she is on the verge of death, absolutely not. That`s where we disagree.
PINSKY: Why does it upset you so much?
WYNTER: It doesn`t upset me. I feel as if, you know, I gave my point of view and that I was attacked.
PINSKY: OK. No attacking. No attacking.
WYNTER: And because my - because my opinion differed that there was something wrong, that I`m advocating being thin in Hollywood, and as someone - and let me finish, please, as someone who had that history in college, this is something that`s dear to my heart.
Fifteen years ago, I almost lost my life, and I spent many years counseling children. I have a two-year-old, you know that, I have kids. And whenever people come around, they say to my daughter, oh, my gosh, she`s cute, she`s so fat, that hits a nerve with me. Because I know so many people struggle with labels, Dr. Drew.
So that`s why this is something dear. It`s a platform for me. It`s not just a reporter who covers the rich and famous in Hollywood, it`s affected me and I don`t like people throwing labels out there - period.
GOLD: There are no labels thrown out.
PINSKY: Seth, how do we close this? We have less than a minute.
MEYERS: OK. Well, here`s what I`m thinking. I`m thinking first of all that it doesn`t seem that different from Demi Moore, who came down to a very low weight, and everybody thought she looked very sickly. And lo and behold, we found out that she was hospitalized and she had a lot of other issues.
I wouldn`t be surprised if a hospitalization were that far away for Angelina Jolie.
PINSKY: If - God, I hate to say this, but if that`s what she needs, I hope that happens. And then we`ll have that conversation and we`ll talk about it. Will the three of us reconvene if that happens?
GOLD: Yes.
WYNTER: Of course and it will be a little more friendly. I like Tracey.
PINSKY: But keep it friendly. Everybody, keep it friendly. I`ve got to go. We`re going to talk about stars that have left us too soon, and what made me refuse to sit quietly while we watch.
And it`s an important conversation. Remember, it`s important for us not to make cartoon characters out of these people and not sit by while somebody`s demise is sort of laughed at.
And later, I`ll take your calls on whatever you want. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: I`m watching Angelina Jolie on the red carpet last night.
People were taking notice of her frail physique. Twitter was going nuts. People joking that the actress could, quote, "eat a cheeseburger," unquote, very heartless stuff.
Well, let`s take a look at these other celebrities that we should have been talking about beforehand.
Here`s Brittany Murphy, then of course Whitney Houston, we should have certainly been discussing what was going on with her and not making fun of her. Anna Nicole Smith. I mean, Ann Nicole was clearly in horrible trouble and she became some sort of cartoon character. Amy Winehouse, again, people making fun of her performing intoxicated or, you know, claiming that it was the fact she was shamed because she was using while intoxicated. These are all things we should have been discussing before these people die.
Now, we stood by, we made fun. It`s time we stop this and start being concerned about people before it`s too late. Seth Meyers is a clinical psychologist, he is here. So is Jen Heger from RadarOnline. And Nicci Gilbert joins me, she`s a recording artist and she is Whitney Houston`s friend.
Nicci, I mean, do you agree with me? I mean don`t you wish people had spoken up about Whitney ahead of time?
NICCI GILBERT, RECORDING ARTIST, WHITNEY HOUSTON`S FRIEND: First of all, thank you so much, Dr. Drew. I think people should have spoken up about Whitney Houston. I think people should have spoken about Amy Winehouse.
And I think when people do speak, they`re being mean and they`re being rude and they`re being disrespectful, talking about how overweight people are.
Whitney Houston`s bodyguard mentioned at her funeral that, you know, she has put on a little bit of weight when she had baby during "The Bodyguard" and people wanted to judge. And I think that this country with 65 percent of the women in America being curvy, I think that this country is - I`m surprised at the reaction to being plus sized or putting on a little bit of weight.
And these drugs, the diet pills which I`ve done myself and thank God I was able to get off of are killing people, are leading to other drugs that are killing people, the pressure.
PINSKY: And see - and indeed, people - again, the weight loss, Jen, can be a sign of lots of different things, and not the eating issues necessarily.
HEGER: It can be a plethora of things. You know, there was - there was a tabloid gossip website this morning that had a poll, should Angelina Jolie be eating a cheeseburger?
PINSKY: Sad.
HEGER: That`s sick. That`s absolutely sick. And we in the media have a responsibility to the viewing public, to America, to be responsible in how we cover these celebrities who are normal human beings.
PINSKY: Which is just like the rest of us.
HEGER: Just like you and I that happen to live in a very magnified existence. These are very legitimate questions that we are raising, you know? I think earlier during the show, I mean, you see the emotions that run with such, you know, being thin in Hollywood, does Angelina Jolie have an eating disorder or not? I don`t know, you don`t know. We can speculate that clearly something is going on.
PINSKY: We can talk about and, also, Seth - but I jut got about 30 or 40 seconds, also hopefully have raised people`s awareness about these kinds of things, so you can teach your kids and not to want to look like that and be concerned when your peers or yourself starts to look that way.
MEYERS: Right, right. But one of the things that I think that`s it`s so interesting about Angelina Jolie, is that, you know, a lot of times anorexics will feel very self conscious about their weight. So they will wear clothes to hide their arms and legs and whatnot.
PINSKY: And she`s not doing that, she`s showing it off.
MEYERS: She`s actually doing the opposite. So what that tells me there`s a little denial of how really kind of dangerously thin her appearance has become.
PINSKY: And the problem may not be an eating disorder, may be something else that`s fueling that denial.
Thank you to Nicci. Thank you to Seth. Thank you to Jen.
Next, I`m taking your calls about today`s school shooting in Ohio and anything else you might want to address.
Go on over to HLNTV.com to comment on our show. And I know you guys have got a lot to say about what we just talked about.
Read more about what you`ve seen here tonight. Understand, we`re just trying to be real about these things and maybe raise a more sophisticated awareness.
Be back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST (voice-over): Coming up, journalist, Douglas Kennedy, a son of RFK, has been charged with harassment and child endangerment for trying to take his own newborn out of a hospital maternity unit. He didn`t have permission, so did he kick a nurse and twist another`s arm as they claim. It`s his baby, why shouldn`t he be the ultimate authority.
But first, your questions, my answers about anything. Remember, no topic is taboo.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (on-camera): All right, these are stories I just can`t believe I`m still reporting on again. One student killed, several others injured in a shooting at a high school outside Cleveland, Ohio. Today, a juvenile suspect is in custody. I mean, many of you remember the columbine incident, and I thought we had it with that and raised awareness.
These are things that keep happening in spite of our diligence. Remember, the Virginia Tech shooting, there is grave concerns about guns and children with mental illness and bullying, and how it all goes together. Many of you understand the concerns, so we`ve got many questions that have come through to us. Let`s go first to Nancy who`s on the line from New Jersey. Go ahead there, Nancy.
NANCY, NEW JERSEY: Hi, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Hi, Nancy.
NANCY: I`m a sociology teacher, and we were actually discussing this in class today.
PINSKY: Yes.
NANCY: And you know, many of these students who commit these types of acts are often bullies.
PINSKY: Right.
NANCY: And for years. And then, one day they decide -- not even years, more period of time -- then, one day, they just decide to just retaliate.
PINSKY: Right.
NANCY: And there`s other factors that can play a role as well, including desensitization to violence and coming from a dysfunctional family.
PINSKY: All that adds up. I mean, that sort of trio of, you know, being around guns, being desensitized to violence, being gravitating towards violent behaviors and violent kinds of hubbies intrigue, that kind of thing. Again, you`re saying dysfunctional family and that`s a pretty broad category, but certainly, if there`s violence in the home of any time that puts them at risk, I completely agree with you. So, what`s the question?
NANCY: Well, I have a question because there`s many of us who come, you know, from these types of families, or perhaps, were bullied.
PINSKY: Yes.
NANCY: But a lot of us, we don`t take it that far.
PINSKY: Right.
NANCY: You know, why is that?
PINSKY: You know, as a sociologist, I wonder if there`s a way to measure, I don`t know, what you`d even measure, whether there`s some sort of threshold phenomenon that, you know, has a certain percentage of people moving towards violence. In my world, it means mental illness. I mean, it just does. I mean, people don`t do this kind of thing without severe either character logical pathology or a major, what we call, Axis 1 diagnosis.
So, you know, I sometimes used to see these kinds of kids in the psychiatric hospitals later after they had done their violence. And believe me, there was major disturbances in every case I saw. But please, Nancy, first of all, thank you for being a teacher and thank you for being such a diligent teacher and say hello to your class for me, will you?
NANCY: Absolutely. Thank you so much, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Thank you, Nancy. Good question.
Here`s a Facebook from Patty. She writes, "Parents need to start taking responsibility for their kids` actions. They get away with murder literally. I`ll bet if you start charging parents for the action of their kids, things would shape up."
I completely agree with you on that one, that we got to hold families accountable. The adults are the ones, always are the ones that are either asleep at the wheel or have a causational, contributed to what we see these kids` behavior. Gwen on the line on Montana. Go ahead, Gwen.
GWEN, MONTANA: Hi, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Gwen.
GWEN: I think school that shootings are done by kids that are bullied constantly --
PINSKY: Yes. That`s often. Yes. It`s true.
GWEN: Yes. And I have an eight-year-old daughter that has autism. She was being beat up by some boy in her class that it made me angry.
PINSKY: Oh, my God!
GWEN: So, I completely understand probably why these kids do the things they do.
PINSKY: Well, now, hold on now. You can`t understand it. I mean, there`s nothing that justifies these kinds of violence.
GWEN: I don`t condone that behavior, but I think that the bullying just needs to stop.
PINSKY: But Gwen, that is the point, right? I mean, if you took the bullying out of the equation and had maybe some development of empathy in these kids and communities of kids, and kids are brutal to each other. If we don`t pay attention as a community and parents and help raise the kinds of kids that don`t engage in those behaviors, you`re absolutely right.
I think there`s a role to be played towards focusing on the bullying. As we were talking with Nancy, the sociology teacher a little while ago, there are sort of three or more things involve in this. We can take out a couple of them. Bullying is what we hear about all the time, and with all the online bullying that goes on, it`s -- we, as adults, have to get involved here.
I hate to think that we have to have laws and big brother`s got get involved with this. Can`t we take care of it as parents?
Pauline on Facebook writes, "Why do these kids feel so entitled to do this? Where did they go wrong? When I was growing up in the 1970s, this was unheard of. What happened?" And I got to tell you something, it`s interesting that you bring up the 1970s, because I really believe that a lot of what we`re seeing in this incredible outlying behavior, let`s say, I`m going to blame it on the 1960s and 1970s.
I think we nearly pulled apart at the seams during that period. Now, some really important thing, good things, came out of it as well, but fact is, there were things that went on during those decades that have still affected our families. And again, we talk about how families are a big part of where this behavior comes from, and we`ve got to reel it back in.
I mean, just think about the fact that most kids now are born out of wedlock, are born by a single mom. I mean, that`s where -- is that going to make things better or worse? I don`t know. I mean, it seems like stability and structure are good for children, and I couldn`t have done it alone. I wouldn`t wish that on a woman, and yet, that`s what`s happening today.
People aren`t understanding the full impact of what`s going on here. And I think that sort of aftermath, this idea that we can`t judge, you know, we`re not allowed to judge anything. You know, we can judge certain things. Violence in the home, no good. Leisha, you`re on the line, Ohio. What`s going on?
LEISHA, OHIO: Hi, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Hi, Leisha.
LEISHA: What are we doing wrong with these children? The shooting in Chardon makes me wonder. Are we leaving them home alone too much?
PINSKY: Well, listen, the thing about, Leisha, in this economy, possibly. I mean, two parents need to work oftentimes. And again, as we said, there`s often -- more often than not just one parent and she`s got to work. Yes, that`s a good point. That`s another piece of the story. What else you got?
LEISHA: Do you think that maybe that we`re doing too much timeout? We`re so nice to them, too much timeout instead of good old fashioned spanking?
PINSKY: No.
(LAUGHTER)
PINSKY: No.
(LAUGHTER)
PINSKY: But, maybe too much spanking and not enough timeout, not enough effective parenting. But I will tell you one thing, and you raise an interesting, important point here, which is that we can`t stand to see our kids uncomfortable, and I think that`s more the core of what you`re saying here. That we, us, parents are so narcissistic that children are extensions of ourselves, and we see them in misery, it evokes our own misery, and we have to make it stop in the kids.
We can`t -- we got to give them an award if they`re not the best. We have to tell them they`re the best, even though they really sucked. No, we got to tell them, hey, you sucked, try better next time. It`s uncomfortable, it`s miserable. We`re here for you. We support you, we love you, no matter what you are. That`s the message. Not that everyone deserves an reward, everyone gets an A. That is about us.
That we can`t tolerate seeing them uncomfortable or disappointed. And I think that`s more what you`re getting at here, that we have to be effective in our support of kids as they come up against what is, sometimes, frustrating and miserable environment.
Here`s an e-mail from Christina. "Drew, I have never been cyber bullied, but I have not seen anyone more bullied online than you. How do you deal with it? How do you recommend others deal with it?" I got a couple of ways to dealing with it. That block button for Twitter is awesome. Spam button works, too.
It used to really bother me, and now, I just sort of -- it still bothers me, frankly. It bothers me, and I try not to read (ph) my executive producers, (INAUDIBLE), won`t let me on Twitter or Facebook some of the time because it effects you. And, I got pretty thick skin. So, I can imagine if you didn`t, it would be devastating.
Next, should you be allowed to take your newborn outside even if hospital nurses will not allow it? That is the heart of a case that has Kennedy in hot water. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: Robert F. Kennedy`s youngest son is facing charges tonight. He fought off two nurses who tried to stop him from taking his newborn baby out of the maternity ward. Douglas Kennedy says he wanted to take the child, quote, "for a walk" when he was stopped by a few nurses who had other ideas. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY (voice-over): Douglas Kennedy was visiting his wife in January in the maternity ward, apparently, wanting to take his baby outside for some fresh air. He says nurses said OK, but when others disagreed, things got nasty. Nurses say they stopped him at the elevator, and he went for the stairs.
ELLIOT TAUB, NURSES` ATTORNEY: One of them got there first. I believe it was Miss Lane, put her hand on the handle of the door, and he wanted to get in. He removed her hand and twisted her arm so severely that she`s had medical treatment for the condition of her arm.
PINSKY: Kennedy`s lawyer says he was protecting his baby and used a knee to stop the nurses who were grabbing for the child.
ROBERT GOTTLIEB, DOUGLAS KENNEDY`S ATTORNEY: The only aggressors were the nurses.
PINSKY: The nurses told police the baby`s head was shaking violently. Kennedy`s lawyer denies it saying the baby slept through the whole thing. The child, fortunately, was not injured. An ER doctor and friend of Kennedys who saw the scalpel says the nurses were the only aggressors. Was he defending his rights as a parent or refusing to follow a nurse`s order?
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY (on-camera): This happened on January 7th, but Mr. Kennedy was just charged last Thursday with harassment and endangering the welfare of a child. Both are misdemeanors. Here with me to discuss this, former prosecutor and criminal defense attorney, Mark Eiglarsh and Attorney Lisa Bloom, author of the book "Think."
And before we get into conversation, I want to read you a statement from Douglas Kennedy and his wife. It reads, "It`s sickening to think that our simple desire to take our son outside for fresh air has been warped into a charge of child endangerment. The nurse had no right to attempt to grab our child out of his father`s arms."
And today, Northern Westchester Hospital released its own statement saying, quote, "We completely support the actions of our nursing staff in this case as they were clearly acting out of concern for the safety of a newborn baby."
Lisa, will you come in on this?
LISA BLOOM, ATTORNEY: Well, I just don`t get this case. There`s something weird going on here. When I had my children, OK?
PINSKY: Yes.
BLOOM: And we were in the hospital together.
PINSKY: Yes.
BLOOM: I wasn`t under the impression that I could just take my baby and walk out the door.
PINSKY: No. Nobody does that.
BLOOM: I mean, you have to be discharged, right?
PINSKY: Yes. Listen, if you`re a patient, you can`t walk out the door.
BLOOM: I can remember when my little baby girl was behind a thick glass window crying, and I was saying give her to me, give her to me. She`s crying. It`s my baby. And they said no, you can`t have her for another ten minutes. And I lost my mind. But I didn`t kick, I didn`t scratch, I didn`t punch, I didn`t yell.
PINSKY: You didn`t run for the door.
(CROSSTALK)
BLOOM: And there is a little bit of elitism going on here. I don`t care if you`re Kennedy, I don`t care if you`re millionaire, you`re celebrity, you have to follow the hospital rules. That`s the bottom line.
PINSKY: Mark, I agree with Lisa. Hospitals cannot function, unless, the structures are maintained that are there and designed to protect the patients, including newborn babies.
MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes. However, in this circumstance, there were some different facts that you haven`t mentioned. With Kennedy at the time was a family friend who`s apparently an emergency room doctor, who not only encouraged him but assisted him in getting outside.
Now, I understand what the staff did and why they did it, and I`m not saying they did anything wrong. This case isn`t about taking the baby out, it`s about Kennedy`s alleged harassment/battery on staff by twisting somebody`s arm and kicking somebody. That clearly was not the right action under the circumstances.
PINSKY: Listen, in a hospital, I`ve been a physician since the early 1980s, I`ve worked for decades in hospitals, in a hospital, when someone becomes aggressive in any way to anyone, they have a security force in every hospital that are there specifically for that purpose, to keep this kind of thing from happening.
I am stunned that not only the poor nurses had to deal with this, but the local police department wasn`t involved in helping them, that certainly their security forces didn`t get involved as well. That`s what they`re there for, is to prevent, Mark, this kind of thing from happening. I`m not saying the hospital was wrong. I`m saying they should have used more force.
EIGLARSH: Wow!
PINSKY: Absolutely.
EIGLARSH: Well, Drew, you tough, tough guy. Woo!
BLOOM: They handcuff the guy?
PINSKY: No. They have things in a hospital called a show of force --
BLOOM: Really?
PINSKY: -- where they will bring a group of people out, including officers to surround the people that are misbehaving to get them to behave in a way that is in the best interest and safety of the patients.
BLOOM: OK, but I`m not going that far, because this is a father with his newborn baby, and he wants to --
PINSKY: He could have harmed that baby. Even just running around with a baby, you know the shaken baby syndrome, that`s how that happens.
EIGLARSH: Wait a second.
(CROSSTALK)
EIGLARSH: Hold on, while I think that they might have been able to justify the two harassment charges for him touching the nurses the way that he did, that other charge endangering the child, there was a witness who said that the child slept through the whole thing, and the child was never in danger.
PINSKY: Mark, have you tried to wake a newborn baby for God`s sakes? This is how shaken baby syndrome happens. People doing things of an aggressive nature around children.
BLOOM: OK. But he`s just holding the baby and trying to walk out the door.
(CROSSTALK)
BLOOM: But the baby seems to be OK.
PINSKY: What`s that, Mark? Thank God!
EIGLARSH: It depends on the fact. Listen, you`re not an eye witness. The one witness that I read about said that the baby was not being shaken. Apparently, there`s another viewpoint, it hinges upon what the facts are. There`s clearly not proof beyond a reasonable doubt that that baby was in any danger, thank God.
BLOOM: Yes, but it`s that the doctor who`s a friend of the Kennedys, I mean, what do you expect he`s going to say? He`s going to support his wealthy friend.
PINSKY: That`s exactly right.
BLOOM: I mean, that`s the bottom line. I`m going with the nurses and the hospital personnel.
PINSKY: Me, too. CNN talked to the nurses` attorney earlier today, and he described the alleged aggression that the nurses endured from Mr. Kennedy. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TAUB: One of them got there first, I believe it was Miss Lane, put her hand on the handle of the door, and he wanted to get in. He removed her hand and twisted her arm so severely that she`s had medical treatment for the condition of her arm. The next event that took place merely after the twisting of the arm was that Carry Luciano (ph) was right in front of Mr. Kennedy, and he was holding the baby at that time.
And she reached out because she saw the baby`s head bobbing back and forth, just hold it in place. And as she did that, he kicked her with one of his legs and she went flying through the air and landed, basically, in the middle of the corridor.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Mark, if I had been in that hospital and I saw a group of hospital staff, trained professionals, chasing a man with a baby because they were concerned, I would have joined in the chase.
EIGLARSH: And I would have, too, and I`m not justifying his behavior at all. If it happened the way that lawyer just alleged, then absolutely, the charges are appropriate. I think, however, the judge or the prosecutor should consider the mitigating factors in determining the sentence.
This wasn`t a guy who just went in there to steal a baby and fight with people. Obviously, something was a little off. He was given wrong information by a family friend who thought they could take it out for some air --
PINSKY: Stop there. Something was a little off. Something was way off, not a little, way off --
BLOOM: Yes. Maybe, he`s tired. He`s got a new baby. I mean, (INAUDIBLE) slack here. But the bottom line is the prosecutors had a couple of months to review all of this, all of the statements.
And I can guarantee you, they took into account, this is a Kennedy, this is a wealthy family, we don`t want to go after somebody like this, unless, there`s a significant amount of evidence. They had a videotape. They had number of witnesses, and they ended up charging him. That`s pretty big.
PINSKY: It is kind of big. And in fact, the attorney claims his client actually checked with another nurse who agreed to let him take the baby outside, and things turn nasty when he was told otherwise. So, it does get a little confusing. So, watch this tape.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOTTLIEB: When another nurse gets involved in the mix and says you cannot leave with your own child? She didn`t have a right at that point to prevent that. And she certainly never had the right, never had the right to lunge, to grab this child from Douglas, from the father`s arms. You`ve had nurses who clearly have a stated false statements about what happened, have lied about what actually happened out of the camera view.
Why they`re doing it? I will let the public, I will let the D.A. to consider whether or not they have a motive other than the truth.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Mark, is he kidding? No right to do whatever they need to do to protect their patient, a newborn child? He is not the patient, the baby is.
EIGLARSH: I don`t disagree with you, but again, it hinges upon the facts as to whether he should be charged. Did they lunge towards him, and as a result of that, he grabs the wrist to keep them away because he erroneously thinks he can walk out with the child? Or, did he, in order to get out of the hospital because he`s determined to do so, lunge towards them, kick another one? Again, it hinges upon the facts, Drew.
BLOOM: -- sympathy for the father, it`s his baby, just born.
PINSKY: I do, I do, but we can talk about the sympathy in a second, Lisa. Hold on. We will talk about that. Douglas Kennedy is a journalist with Fox News. We`ll find out what his boss has, Roger Ailes, has to say about it after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: Last week, Douglas Kennedy, the youngest son of Robert F. Kennedy, was charged with child endangerment when he tried to take his three-day-old baby out of the hospital for, quote, "some fresh air," and that was without any consent from staff or doctors. When two nurses then intervened, he allegedly grab one of the nurses by the wrist and kicked out of the ground. You`re seeing pictures of her going to the ground there alongside of him.
Douglas Kennedy is a reporter for Fox News. His boss, Roger Ailes, had this to say, quote, "I support Douglas. It is unfortunate that what appears to be a father`s defensive maneuver to protect his newborn baby has been twisted because of his famous name. In my view, the real moral of the story should be don`t try to grab a baby from arms of a loving father."
My guests, criminal defense attorney, Mark Eiglarsh, and Attorney Lisa Bloom. Look, the moral of the story here is you don`t act out against the structure and rules of a hospital. Normal people don`t do that. That`s just how it works. But, let`s play devil`s advocate for a second, and maybe, it is a father, you know, like you were saying.
BLOOM: There`s another side to it. Well, because I can remember having just given birth to my daughter, and this is 22 years ago now, but I remember it like it was yesterday, and they wouldn`t give her to me when she was crying on the other side of a glass. And you know, if I had snapped and yelled and pushed and shoved through to get my daughter. I mean, that could have been me.
PINSKY: You would have seen a security force. And by the way, Lisa, I`m making note about this. I`m making note that this could be you, just so you know.
BLOOM: He`s a new daddy. I mean, it`s the same kind of situation.
PINSKY: Yes.
BLOOM: Physical assault never OK, but I can understand probably where he`s coming from.
PINSKY: We can. And Mark, let`s continue to play this sort of devil`s advocacy and say, you know, pediatric hospitals through history did horrible things to their patients, and if patient had spoken up earlier, maybe these kinds of weaknesses in our system would have been exposed. Now, I`m not saying what he do is OK, but maybe he is onto something.
EIGLARSH: There is a lot to mitigate this case, not to negate his guilt. If he really did, you know, Bruce Lee one of these nurses with the sidekick and twists one of the wrists of the nurse, it doesn`t matter if he was legally justified of taking the child. You cannot, under any criminal code, act in that manner.
But let`s look at the mitigation. There is plenty. I don`t know if he got much sleep. I don`t know what his condition was, but clearly, there`s a lot to mitigate. And I wouldn`t like to see him have a tarnished record as a result.
PINSKY: Maybe we are making too much --
BLOOM: Well, let`s see him apologize then, right?
PINSKY: Yes. Mark, what about that? What about an apology? Because, listen, the hospital is just trying to -- that poor hospital stuff is just trying to do their damn job. It`s hard enough to work in a hospital these days, hard enough to be a nurse. Let`s give them a little support. Let him step up, apologize, I made a mistake. Hospitals operate that reason on the best interest of their patients.
BLOOM: Mark is going to say no. Defense lawyer is not going to let somebody apologize. Right, Mark?
EIGLARSH: Are you ready, Lis, yes, yes? You ready, Lisa?
(LAUGHTER)
EIGLARSH: I would say diversion so that he doesn`t have to necessarily plead guilty, but as long as he writes a letter of apology, maybe a little anger management, assuming the facts are as we`re hearing, then they drop the charge. He moves to have this expunged from his record, and we move on.
BLOOM: I think the old-fashioned apology. We don`t have enough of them, as far as I`m concerned. We all make mistakes. Apologize, come clean. It should be done.
PINSKY: Physicians are encouraged to sort of admit when they`ve done something wrong.
BLOOM: It never happens to apologies. They`re so out of style now.
PINSKY: Guys like Mark get in the way of it. They don`t let anybody admit any --
EIGLARSH: Objection! Objection, Drew!
(LAUGHTER)
PINSKY: Guys, thank you, Mark. Thank you, Lisa.
EIGLARSH: Thanks, Drew. Good to see you.
PINSKY: I want to remind everybody -- good to see you. It`s been too long, by the way. I just spilled my coffee over you there, my friend.
Nancy Grace, of course, is up next. I want to thank you all for watching. I hope this show today made you think a little bit. That was the desire, raise your awareness about the things that concern me, and hopefully, our concerns will be unfounded after tonight. So, thank you all for watching. We`ll keep the conversation going. See you then.
END
