Return to Transcripts main page
Nancy Grace
New Developments in Trayvon Martin Case
Aired March 27, 2012 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, live Sanford, Florida. A 17-year-old heads home to his dad`s condo, gunned down by the captain of neighborhood watch. As of tonight, no arrest. With protests going on at this hour all around the country, big controversy about the 911 calls.
Now they`re calling in the feds to enhance the calls. I`ve listened, and I don`t need an FBI enhancement. I know what I hear Zimmerman saying. I can hear it with my naked ear. We have the calls. We`ll play them for you tonight. More reports the 17-year-old punched Zimmerman, slammed him into the sidewalk.
Bombshell tonight. New details emerging at this hour. A $10,000 reward for Zimmerman`s, quote, "capture." Trayvon Martin`s family in mourning. His team goes to court to copyright slogans with Trayvon`s name in them. Why?
The Sanford police house (ph) itself is under guard for vigilantes. With claims of self-defense swirling, tonight, you hear the evidence.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Trayvon had the right to be there.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police, I just heard a shot right behind my house.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think they`re yelling help. I can`t see them. I don`t want to go out there. I don`t know what`s going on, so...
GEORGE ZIMMERMAN, NEIGHBORHOOD WATCH VOLUNTEER: These (EXPLETIVE DELETED), they always get away. He`s coming to check me out.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He says she told him to run.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) he was going to walk back.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And he said, I`m not going to, but I`m going to start walking fast.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He just said he shot him dead! The police (INAUDIBLE) laying on the ground!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s a bounty on his head. He`s in hiding now out of fear for his life.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police know where Zimmerman is. He has not been charged with a crime.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He has killed an innocent child!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They`re offering a $10,000 reward for the capture of George Zimmerman.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They`re not even sure who pulled the trigger.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, I`m not.
GRACE: A mother is crying.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police know where Zimmerman is.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And I don`t understand why this man has not been arrested!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We want justice. Straight out to Dustin Weis with WIOD. Dustin Weis, more details emerging amidst claims of leaks. What`s happening? What`s the latest this hour?
DUSTIN WEIS, NEWSRADIO 510 WIOD (via telephone): Nancy, police in Sanford have been very tight-lipped up to this point about what happened that night a month ago. But now we`re hearing new reports that it`s apparently been leaked to "The Orlando Sentinel" that paint Trayvon Martin as the aggressor in this.
In these reports, George Zimmerman apparently claims that he pursued Trayvon into the night, then turned back when he lost sight of the teen. As he was walking back to his truck, Zimmerman claims that Trayvon approached him from behind and then a verbal dispute ensued.
Then Zimmerman says that Trayvon, a tall, gangly 17-year-old about 140, 150 pounds, clocked Zimmerman in the nose and took him down with one punch -- Zimmerman, a shorter man but weighing in maybe 70 or 80 pounds heavier than Trayvon.
Zimmerman then contends that Trayvon climbed on top of him and began to batter his head against the ground. And then Zimmerman says Trayvon went for his gun. They struggled over it. Zimmerman shot him once in the chest.
This police source says that officers found Zimmerman with a bloodied nose and lacerations on the back of his head, but he refused a trip to the hospital.
And police say that they have witness testimony that backs up Zimmerman`s case, including a 13-year-old that says they saw Zimmerman lying on his back, moaning and calling for help, Nancy.
GRACE: OK, let me get this straight, you`re saying, Dustin Weis, WIOD, that Zimmerman was lying on his back, calling for help?
WEIS: That`s according to these witnesses that police have -- say that they have right now anyways. Now, again, the police haven`t actually released this information officially to the press or the public. This is according to a leak from within the department.
But Sanford city management has come on the record saying they did not authorize the release of this information, but they will not dispute the validity of it.
GRACE: With me now a special guest, Natalie Jackson, joining me out of Orlando. This is Trayvon Martin`s family lawyer.
Ms. Jackson, thank you for being with us.
NATALIE JACKSON, ATTORNEY FOR TRAYVON MARTIN`S FAMILY (via telephone): Thank you for having me, Nancy.
GRACE: Ms. Jackson, explain to me the response to what you are hearing today, these new claims. I`m not saying that they`re new. The Zimmerman camp says they`ve been around from the get-go, but they`re new to me. I`m just hearing them.
JACKSON: Nancy, they`re new to us, too. This is the third version of Zimmerman`s defense put forth to the press by leaks and by anonymous sources. This is the third version.
Zimmerman is vetting a defense through the press. That is what is happening here. His statement to police made no sense at all. Trayvon was found -- his body was found 70 yards from his home. He was almost home. It makes no sense. If he`s running away from Zimmerman, as Zimmerman`s own words say he`s running away, then he would not just go home. Trayvon was trying to get away from Zimmerman.
GRACE: OK, Ms. Jackson -- with me, everybody, Natalie Jackson. This is Trayvon Martin`s family lawyer joining us tonight and taking your calls.
Also with us is the Florida state attorney overseeing this case, Angela Corey, also taking your calls. Ms. Jackson, you say this is Zimmerman`s third story. What are the three stories in a nutshell?
JACKSON: The first story was Trayvon dragged him out of the car and attacked him. The second story was he was looking at -- he was looking for street signs to tell the police where he was, and Trayvon attacked him. Now we hear that Trayvon had somehow attacked him from behind and knocked him down.
Trayvon was found dead -- his body was found face down in the ground with his arms under him. That is not someone who was on top of a person beating them. It`s more consistent with the witnesses statements that Mr. Zimmerman was on top. There are witnesses that state that.
When they say there`s a 13-year-old boy who says that Zimmerman was there, we have evidence that the police told witnesses that it was Zimmerman, not who they thought, Trayvon on the ground. The police have totally -- they`ve totally been very inappropriate and conducted this so- called investigation...
GRACE: OK, tell me -- you`re saying the police have inappropriately conducted the investigation. Now, what I see right now is inappropriate is that, typically, when somebody is shot dead, the police take into custody, arrest, the shooter. And then if the shooter wants to claim self-defense, he can do that at a jury trial, OK?
But I find that extremely unusual. But you`re saying there`s more police impropriety. What exactly is the impropriety that you`re referring to?
JACKSON: You have two witnesses, Mary Cutcher and her roommate, who came out in the press and they told what happened that night. They were called liars by the police department in "The Orlando Sentinel." The police department sent a press statement.
This is the same police department that has not sent the parents any information regarding this investigation. Everything the parents learn about the death of their 17-year-old unarmed child has been through the media and through leaks and stories from the police department.
GRACE: So you`re saying that the police impropriety is leaks and comments on witnesses` statements. Are those the two improprieties?
With me, Natalie Jackson, Trayvon Martin`s family lawyer. Are those the two improprieties?
JACKSON: Among others. They told witnesses, who -- they did not take witness statements. They actually told witnesses what they believed the version of the story was.
GRACE: What witness?
JACKSON: I`m sorry?
GRACE: What witness did they coach?
JACKSON: We have two witnesses that have come out, the 13-year-old boy, and also, there`s another witness who viewed it. She`s on the 911 tape. These are the witnesses who are on the 911 tapes. They are the ones that had the best opportunity.
GRACE: Did the witnesses on the 911 tape see what happened or hear what happened?
JACKSON: What we have are the 911 tapes. We have talked to three of the witnesses so far. Those three witnesses that they believe that Trayvon Martin was in -- that it was George Zimmerman who was the aggressor.
GRACE: Right. Question to you, Ellie Jostad. Natalie Jackson, the Martin family lawyer, is with us along with Angela Corey and Joe Oliver, George Zimmerman`s friend.
But Ellie, I want to clarify those witnesses on the 911 calls. Did they see what happened?
ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, Nancy, that`s the problem right there. From the way these 911 calls play out -- and I`m looking at them right now -- they heard fighting. They heard someone possibly screaming for help. But we don`t have any witnesses that say they saw the altercation.
GRACE: OK, wait, wait, wait! Ellie, no offense, but why do I need you? I`ve got the 911 calls. Let`s take a listen.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
911 OPERATOR: So when you heard screaming, it was a male screaming?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. And the guy on top in a white T-shirt.
911 OPERATOR: What do you mean a guy on top? Did you see a fight?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t know. I looked out my window and there`s a guy on top with a white T-shirt.
911 OPERATOR: OK. He`s on top of what?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I couldn`t see the other thing. I couldn`t see the person he was on.
911 OPERATOR: But he`s on top of a person?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Uh-huh.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, my God! He shot -- he shot the person. He just said he shot the person.
911 OPERATOR: Who`s saying they shot who?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: People out there. A guy is raising his hands up. He`s saying he shot a person. I think it`s a police officer that`s with him right now -- arrest -- oh, my God! Why (INAUDIBLE)
911 OPERATOR: (INAUDIBLE) officers there. He has somebody at gunpoint.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE)
911 OPERATOR: They`re going to -- they`re going to...
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
911 OPERATOR: Police, fire or medical.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Maybe both, I`m not sure. There`s just someone screaming outside.
911 OPERATOR: Do you think he`s yelling help?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
911 OPERATOR: All right, what is your...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There`s gunshot!
911 OPERATOR: You just heard gunshots?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
911 OPERATOR: How many?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Just one.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s probably going to be best if you stay inside your home for the time being, OK?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I know! I can`t believe someone is killed! He was saying, Help. Why didn`t someone come out and help him?
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: To Angela Corey -- Angela Corey, the Florida state attorney overseeing the Martin case, this after the elected district attorney has recused himself for any appearance of impropriety.
Ms. Corey, thank you for being with us.
ANGELA COREY, FL STATE ATTORNEY OVERSEEING CASE: Thank you, Nancy.
GRACE: It`s a pleasure to have you. And you`ve got a tough job.
COREY: We do.
GRACE: You have to somehow block out all the screaming, the protests, the this, the that, the TV, the lawyer lawyers, the public. You have to look at the facts and you have to do the right thing no matter what.
Now, maybe I`m wrong, but from those three 911 calls, it sounds to me like there may be one eyewitness just out of those three calls.
COREY: I believe you`re right, Nancy. And our lawyers are diligently looking into all aspects of the 911 call and the witnesses who called in and may have seen or heard anything.
GRACE: You know, Ms. Corey -- everyone, with us, special guest Angela Corey, along with Natalie Jackson, who is the Martin -- Trayvon Martin family lawyer with us tonight. Also with us is George Zimmerman`s friend, Joe Oliver, speaking on his behalf.
These are three very different interests. Zimmerman, of course, is protecting his own interests, as he should. Martin -- Trayvon Martin`s family is protecting his interests.
We are taking your calls tonight. With me, George Zimmerman`s friend, Trayvon Martin`s family lawyer, and Angela Corey, overseeing the case. We are live, taking your calls.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is the case that is consuming the nation right now.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Calls for an arrest in the death of unarmed 17- year-old Trayvon Martin.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Trayvon Martin was visiting family in a gated community when he walked to a nearby convenience store. Zimmerman had called police to report...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls. Tonight with us, Angela Corey -- she is overseeing the case for the state of Florida. Natalie Jackson -- she is Trayvon Martin`s family lawyer. And Joe Oliver, a friend of George Zimmerman, the alleged shooter in this case.
Mr. Oliver, out to you. Is it true? Natalie Jackson just detailed three different versions according to Zimmerman that happened that night. They can`t all be true.
JOE OLIVER, FRIEND OF GEORGE ZIMMERMAN: I`ve not heard the first two versions before.
GRACE: OK. Well, you`ve been with him. You`ve heard the versions. At this juncture, what is his version? And I`m not saying there were different versions before. I just want to get his story.
You`re his friend. Tell me his story. I don`t want to hear it from a reporter. I don`t want to hear it from reading something. I want to hear it from you. You`re his friend. Go ahead. What happened?
OLIVER: His version of the story is what was published yesterday by "The Orlando Sentinel." And Nancy, I think you`ll agree that part of the problems of this story is not only the Sanford police investigation but how the story has been covered from the very beginning, with the stories that George Zimmerman is white. He is not white. He`s a Latino male. And it`s just snowballed from there. At the beginning of your story...
GRACE: OK, hold on. Hold on. Hold on.
OLIVER: Nancy, at the beginning of your story...
GRACE: Joe...
OLIVER: ... he was characterized as being 70, 80 pounds heavier than Trayvon. Not only was George shorter than Trayvon, he weighs about 170 pounds.
GRACE: OK. Because we were told he weighed about 250 pounds.
OLIVER: And that information came from his arrest in 2005, which was publicized when people were looking into his background. They just said he was arrested. You can get his dimensions on that. They didn`t say what he was arrested for, which was...
GRACE: OK, hold everything!
OLIVER: ... which was for...
GRACE: Hold on!
OLIVER: Let me finish! He was arrested for...
GRACE: No!
OLIVER: ... coming to the aid (ph) of a friend.
GRACE: It was never said on this show that anybody`s white, that anybody`s African-American. That hasn`t even been talked about on my show. But I do know...
OLIVER: I`m saying the media`s reports in general.
GRACE: Well, you`re right. You`re right, Oliver. Now, one thing that has got everybody in an uproar, in addition to the shooting is -- now they`ve got the feds to enhance it. But I can hear Mr. Zimmerman with my naked ear say first, All these (EXPLETIVE DELETED) get away. And two, I hear him say (EXPLETIVE DELETED).
I heard that, OK? I don`t need NASA to tell me what I heard. I don`t need a reporter. I heard it. Now, see, a slur in itself is not going to be something to put Zimmerman in jail, but it`s going to be argued -- that goes to his frame of mind, his course of conduct, what he was thinking at the time he was following the 17-year-old. So it`s extremely incendiary.
OLIVER: Oh, I agree 100 percent. But I also agree that what you hear depends on your perspective because I`ve listened to it several times myself, and one time I hear "coon," and the other time I hear "goon." And a lot of it depends on your perspective.
GRACE: OK...
OLIVER: We`re at this point now in our country because of what everybody believes has happened based on half the story, and we`re only getting the first story.
GRACE: All right, I want to hear you out, Mr. Oliver. So for right now, Liz, cut that music. I want to hear the 911 call.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
ZIMMERMAN: They always get away. This guy looks like he`s up to no good or he`s on drugs or something. Something`s wrong with him. Yes, he`s coming to check me out. He`s got something in his hands. I don`t know what his deal is.
911 OPERATOR: Are you following him?
ZIMMERMAN: Yes.
911 OPERATOR: OK, we don`t need to you do that.
ZIMMERMAN: OK. (EXPLETIVE DELETED)
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
ZIMMERMAN: George. He ran.
911 OPERATOR: All right, George, what`s your last name?
ZIMMERMAN: Zimmerman.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There`s gunshots.
911 OPERATOR: You just heard gunshots?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
911 OPERATOR: How many?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Just one.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I heard the crying. It was a little boy. As soon as the gun went off, the crying stopped.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He had a...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: At this hour, new reports Zimmerman claims that 17-year-old Trayvon Martin turned on him, decked him, then beat his head into the sidewalk.
We also learn that the gunshot was very close range. Now, that`s going to be a matter of forensics. You`re going to be able to look at Trayvon Martin`s clothing and determine if there`s gunshot residue on it that would be picked up from 36 inches at least. I don`t know if the Sanford police did a gunshot residue on Zimmerman because he admits that he shot, so that`s not going to be an issue.
To Joe Oliver, Mr. Zimmerman`s friend. Joe Oliver, I know you heard that playback I played for you. Now, I could hear it. And again, while I don`t condone it, he`s not going to go to jail for a slur. You don`t go to jail. You can say whatever you want to in this country.
OLIVER: I understand. But knowing George Zimmerman, I am finding it hard to believe that it was a slur. Like I said, I`ve listened to it many times, and one time I hear one thing, another time I hear another. I think it`s all based upon your perspective.
But on the 911 call, the call to the police dispatcher, two things I`d like to point out. You heard George said, first of all, He`s checking me out. Second of all, when the police dispatcher told him that he didn`t have to follow Trayvon, George responded, OK. To me, that supports George`s claim that he was heading back towards his vehicle.
George is a very law-abiding individual. That`s why he didn`t run. He didn`t have any reason to run.
GRACE: I understand that. To Natalie Jackson, the Trayvon Martin family attorney, your response?
JACKSON: My response is Joe Oliver was not there. I don`t even know why he`s on television giving these interviews.
GRACE: Well, were you there?
JACKSON: He`s not a witness. He wasn`t there.
GRACE: Were you there, ma`am?
JACKSON: No, I was not there.
GRACE: Well, there you go!
JACKSON: But there are witnesses. I am not saying -- I am not putting forth a defense. All we`re asking for is an arrest. We are saying arrest George Zimmerman. Have a jury and a judge decide what witnesses are credible that have seen it.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He said he lost the man -- but the man Trayvon said was following him. I asked him to run, and Trayvon said he wasn`t going to be running. Trayvon said he ain`t going to run like that, he was going to walk fast.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Justice for Trayvon.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Just came screaming outside.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: An unarmed 17-year-old walking home at night from picking up candy from a convenience store.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: Are you following him?
GEORGE ZIMMERMAN, SHOOTER: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: OK, we don`t need to you do that.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The self-appointed neighborhood watch --
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The screams, gunfire, deafening silence.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: So you think he`s yelling help?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: All right. What is your --
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The cry for help and a gunshot.
MARY CUTCHER, WITNESSED SHOOTING AFTERMATH: As soon as the gun went off, the crying stopped.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: On this man, George Zimmerman, holding the gun that killed Martin.
ZIMMERMAN: These (EXPLETIVE DELETED) they always get away.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Zimmerman tells police it`s self-defense.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m pretty sure the guy is dead out here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls. As of tonight, no arrest, but Angela Corey is with us. She is the Florida state attorney overseeing the Trayvon Martin case.
Natalie Jackson, the Trayvon Martin family lawyer. Also with us, Joe Oliver, a very dear friend of George Zimmerman.
All right. Angela Corey.
ANGELA COREY, FLORIDA STATE ATTORNEY OVERSEEING TRAYVON MARTIN CASE: Yes, Nancy?
GRACE: This is how it appears to me. Even if everything Joe Oliver says is true, even if it`s all true, shouldn`t that be a decision for a jury, not the police department?
COREY: Well, Nancy, everything that Joe Oliver said goes to just what we discussed earlier, and it`s called an affirmative defense in the state of Florida called justifiable use of deadly force. "Stand Your Ground" is a portion of that law, and my lawyers are experts in that area of the law.
First they will go on this fact-finding mission and then they will look at that law to see how the law applies to those facts.
GRACE: Mm-hmm. Angela Corey, Florida is not alone. There`s "Stand Your Ground" in many, many jurisdictions. I`ve got a question about "Stand Your Ground." First of all, obviously when somebody comes into your home to burglarize it or rob you, or rape you, you can shoot them dead.
All right. In a case like this when you are con fronted with force -- let`s just say for argument`s sake Zimmerman`s story is true, a 17-year-old hits him. Standing your ground, is he allowed under the law to shoot him dead?
COREY: Nancy, our laws are very clear that it has to be a forcible felony and that a reasonable person would have to believe that deadly force is necessary as opposed to just physical force, fighting back and that sort of thing. I`ve prosecuted a woman who shot her husband and killed him because he slapped her, and we argued that was not deadly force and she was convicted and sent to state prison.
GRACE: Now what about this claim, Angela Corey, that Zimmerman may have thought Trayvon Martin was reaching into his pocket for a gun? Of course now we all know he didn`t have a gun. Now sometimes when a victim has a reputation for violence the law may entertain that theory but here Zimmerman didn`t know Trayvon Martin or his reputation. My understanding, he had a fine reputation anyway.
COREY: Everything you just said will be relevant, Nancy, and it`s all used -- every aspect of both the shooter and the victim will be looked at and analyzed as it relates to the evidence in this case.
GRACE: Joining me right now Martin Savidge at the Sanford city hall. CNN correspondent Martin Savidge.
Martin, thank you for being with us. Martin, give me an update, man. You`ve been on the story since about 5:00 a.m. Thank you for being with us. What do you know, Martin?
MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, what we know is that the Sanford Police Department, number one, has launched an internal investigation. They want to find out who is leaking the information that came out. That is the article that was in the "Orlando Sentinel" and that is the one that has given us at least an idea of what authorities say George Zimmerman has told them regarding his self-defense --
GRACE: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Martin, Martin, Martin. Wait. The Sanford Police Department has launched an investigation on who leaked information? Shouldn`t they be figuring out what went wrong, if anything, during the investigation of the shooting? They have a lot more to worry about than a leak, Martin. They have a lot more to worry about than a leak. Go ahead, friend.
SAVIDGE: That right now is under investigation by the special prosecutor to determine exactly the grounds of whether or not George Zimmerman is allowed to put up this defense that he has given which is self-defense. If you`re asking about the attitudes and actions of the Sanford Police Department, well, there is a federal entity called the FBI that is monitoring and the federal government is also monitoring. So we`ll have to wait and see what their version and verdict is of that.
GRACE: With me Martin Savidge, CNN correspondent, standing by at the Sanford city hall.
Martin Savidge, what do you know about the time line so far? There`s a missing peace to the time line. According to Zimmerman`s friend it`s going to help Zimmerman`s case. What is the missing piece and what have you learned?
SAVIDGE: The missing piece is that critical moment that struggled which is identified in that police report in which it appears that George Zimmerman fears for his own life, is described by Joe Oliver as a life and death struggle, and he says it is the reason that George Zimmerman is not in jail. And when exactly that is we have not heard neither from the police, George Zimmerman or Joe Oliver.
It is so crucial everyone is staying silent on it. So I can`t tell you exactly what it is. There`s been illusions to the fact that they struggled for control of the weapon and during that struggle the gun went off but why or how or who pulled the trigger we don`t know.
GRACE: To Martin Savidge, I understand that we now know thanks to a leak that the gunshot wound was very close range. Do you know if it was at point blank range which would support the theory they were in a hand-to- hand combat?
SAVIDGE: Right. A key piece of evidence and of course one of the things we did want to know because it changes differently the perspective of how serious the fight, how far away the shot. If it`s right up close, then it appears to be just as you described, hand-to-hand, life and death. If there is no power residue, it`s at some distance, that`s a whole different matter. Again, authorities will not say anything. It`s part of the investigation. They will not release that information.
GRACE: Martin Savidge, do we know if any of Trayvon Martin`s fingerprints were on the gun? If they are not, then that will defeat Zimmerman`s claim to a degree that Trayvon Martin was trying to get the gun.
SAVIDGE: Again, that is a detail you would love to know, vitally important, but there just is not that kind of detail that`s coming from authorities. Remember, they didn`t even wish to release the 911 calls initially. It took action on the part of Trayvon Martin`s family to get those released, and there has been little information since other than the leak which has now been confirmed by the Sanford Police Department. They will say nothing more on it.
GRACE: Could you -- could you show me, Martin Savidge, as you`re standing there, where on Trayvon Martin`s body he was shot?
SAVIDGE: I was told by Chief Lee when I spoke to him several weeks ago that the shot would have been directly here in the chest.
GRACE: Dead center?
SAVIDGE: Yes.
GRACE: Do you happen to know, Martin Savidge, the trajectory path?
SAVIDGE: No, I`m sorry, Nancy. Again, you know, your questions are very insightful and I wish I had the answers but we do not that --
GRACE: Well, you know, Martin, if anybody gets them, it`s going to be you. With me there at Sanford city hall is Martin Savidge, CNN correspondent.
Angela Corey, Florida state attorney overseeing this case, those questions are going to be integral. Do you know the answers right now as to trajectory path and whether there is gunshot residue on Martin`s clothing?
COREY: I do, Nancy, and the problem with Florida law or the benefit of Florida law, as I like to say, is that we`re not allowed to release those details.
GRACE: OK.
COREY: The 911 call is the only thing we can release, and even that has to be redacted to a certain extent. We have asked for patience. We`ve asked for prayers. I met with Trayvon`s family last night. They are lovely people, and I have prayed with them, met with them, and promised them they will get answers as soon as our expert team can finish this investigation and get with them again. And we look forward to keeping them apprised as our constitutional victims.
GRACE: To Dr. Bill Manion, medical examiner, joining us out of Philly.
Dr. Manion, I can`t pry it out of Angela Corey because she does not want to jeopardize her investigation, but I know that you understand the significance of my question regarding trajectory path and as to gunshot residue on Trayvon Martin`s clothing.
Explain, Manion.
DR. BILL MANION, M.D., MEDICAL EXAMINER, BURLINGTON COUNTY, NJ: Well, if there really was a struggle for the gun, if the gun discharged as Trayvon was holding the gun, we would find gunshot residue on his fingers. In addition if his hands were actually on the gun we may find fingerprints as you pointed out earlier.
I`m very interested in the trajectory of the bullet. Did it go upward? gunshot residue on his fingers. In addition if his hands were actually on the gun we may find fingerprints as you pointed out earlier. I`m very interested in the trajectory of the bullet. Did it go upward? For instance, if the person was on the bottom shooting up, or did it go straight forward? That is interesting to know, too.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: Do you need police, fire or medical?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Maybe both, I`m not sure. There`s just someone screaming outside.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: So you think he`s yelling help?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: All right. What is your --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There`s gunshots.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: You just heard gunshots?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: How many?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Just one.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t know why. I think they`re yelling help but I don`t know. Send someone quick, please.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: Does he look hurt?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I can`t see him. I don`t want to go out. I don`t know what`s going on. So -- they`re coming.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Straight out to "People" magazine writer Steve Helling joining us there in Orlando.
OK, Steve, Natalie Jackson, the Trayvon Martin family lawyer, says Zimmerman`s story is changing. Are facts changing? Is Zimmerman`s story itself or is more leaking out? Clarify.
STEVE HELLING, STAFF WRITER, PEOPLE MAGAZINE: You know, what I`m seeing is that each time we hear a little bit more, you know, then we have to kind of reconcile that with what we`ve heard before that and then it kind of becomes a fuller picture. Whether or not it`s changed or not, I can`t say either way.
GRACE: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Whoa, whoa, whoa. Helling, Helling, don`t try with me, OK.
HELLING: Yes.
GRACE: Because according to Natalie Jackson, she says Zimmerman`s first story he was dragged out of the car. She says the second story is that Zimmerman said he was looking at street signs. And then she says the third story is that Trayvon Martin came back, circled back on him. And decked him.
HELLING: I did hear the street signs one. I did hear that version. And there`s this one -- and you have to figure out --
GRACE: Did you ever hear the dragging out of the car story? I never heard that.
HELLING: I did not. No, I haven`t heard that one before.
GRACE: OK. But you did hear the street sign so we`ll go with two stories.
HELLING: Yes, I did.
GRACE: Well, they can`t both be true. OK. They can`t both be true. Can they?
HELLING: I don`t know. They may be able to. I haven`t tried to reconcile the two, to be honest. And that`s what police -- that`s what their role is to do at this point. They have to figure out --
GRACE: Why is it their role? Keep Helling up.
Unleash the lawyers. Ken Padowitz, Kirby Clements, Midwin Charles.
All right, Kirby Clements, why is it the police role to determine the truth of the witnesses? The last I looked, the jury was the sole fact- finder as to the truth of the facts and the law.
KIRBY CLEMENTS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, that might be the case once the police have made an initial determination. But as you know, Nancy, police have to establish probable cause to arrest someone.
GRACE: Hey, first of all, don`t start telling me what I know, all right? Don`t try to teach me.
CLEMENTS: Well, I`m just trying to --
GRACE: Clements, all right? Now go ahead.
CLEMENTS: I`m just trying to -- just try to remind you. I`m just trying to remind you that the police have to determine probable cause and then they can make an arrest. But if they determine that the witnesses are not truthful or are not credible, they can decline to arrest people, and that is a proper function of the police department.
We don`t want folks just getting locked up because of an allegation. We want a thorough investigation done first.
GRACE: Padowitz?
KEN PADOWITZ, FORMER FLORIDA HOMICIDE PROSECUTOR: Not allegation, how about a dead body?
MIDWIN CHARLES, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Exactly.
GRACE: I don`t know what type of -- I`ve worked with fantastic police officers here in Ft. Lauderdale. I don`t know what type of Mickey Mouse operation that Sanford Police Department is except for its proximity to Disneyworld. But they have done everything wrong in this case. I`m disgusted with what`s happened and now they`ve leaked information from their own police department.
And now they`re going to investigate themselves on that? I don`t know what this police department is up to but somebody needs to take over the entire investigation like the state attorney is doing in this case and find out exactly what happened. But they had probable cause to make an arrest at the scene and an arrest should have been made. A jury is the proper forum where this defense would be put forth on whether or not he`s convinced beyond reasonable doubt.
GRACE: Hey, hey, hey, you`re preaching to the choir, Padowitz. Don`t go crazy.
Midwin Charles, jump in.
CHARLES: No, I think he`s absolutely right. I think anyone looking at this case is just baffled with the fact that Sanford Police failed to arrest George Zimmerman. How much more probable cause do you need than a dead body, a dead body with a bullet right in the center of that body? I don`t understand how much more probable cause you need. And I think it is inappropriate and it sends a horrific message that anybody who`s gun happy or trigger-happy and has a beef with someone could just step to them and shoot them, and say it was self-defense and not get arrested.
It makes no sense.
GRACE: OK, to you, Steve Helling, I want to clear something up and you may know the answer. You`re on the scene. I want to clear up Zimmerman`s medical treatment because yesterday -- last night I thought they took -- police took him straight to a police interrogation room. I now understand he got some medical treatment from a fire person at the scene, then they took him to interrogation.
But what do we know? Did he really break his nose? Did he really have a gash on his head that need stitches?
HELLING: Well, you know, obviously that`s what we`ve heard. I haven`t seen any medical reports to back that up.
GRACE: All right. OK, Joe Oliver --
HELLING: But you know, that`s what he`s saying.
GRACE: Let`s see Joe Oliver and Steve Helling. What about it, Joe? What can you tell me about his injuries?
JOE OLIVER, FRIEND OF GEORGE ZIMMERMAN: About his injuries? About his broken nose and about the gashes on the back of his head?
GRACE: Yes.
OLIVER: That they happened. We are efforting, rather, a picture that was taken by one of the police investigators on the scene on an iPhone before George was cleaned up to show the severity of the beating.
GRACE: OK, that`s going to go a long way if that really exists.
Steve Kardian, former police detective, self-defense expert, I remember when I was in target practice. As a district attorney we all had to be licensed to carry a gun, we were trained to shoot directly in the center of the chest. Am I just remembering incorrectly or is that true?
STEVE KARDIAN, FMR. POLICE DETECTIVE, SELF-DEFENSE EXPERT, LEAD INSTRUCTOR AT DEFEND UNIVERSITY: No, it`s true. Center mass firing to stop whatever action -- aggressive action against you, yes.
GRACE: You know, Wendy Walsh, that was an important question to me. Psychologist and co-host of "The Doctors."
Wendy, sounds like all Zimmerman`s training kicked in, his criminal justice major, neighborhood watch captain. They told him not to follow Trayvon Martin. Now according to Oliver, he says, he said, OK, he turned around. I want to hear what you have to say, Wendy Walsh.
WENDY WALSH, PH.D., PSYCHOLOGIST, CO-HOST OF "THE DOCTORS": Well, I think in so many of these situations, everybody`s version of truth is true, but it`s Zimmerman`s version --
GRACE: Oh, no, no, no. Everybody is not telling the truth, Wendy. All right?
WALSH: Well, they`re having their perceptions.
GRACE: All that UA, everybody`s telling the truth out in California. No. Somebody`s lying.
WALSH: No, I want you to imagine that Zimmerman had this training and he was also a neighborhood watch person and had a heightened level of fear- based behavior. He was -- he was paranoid and fear-based.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CUTCHER: I heard the crying. It was a little boy. As soon as the gun went off, the crying stopped.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Out to the lines. Crystal in California. Hi, Crystal, what`s your question?
CRYSTAL, CALLER FROM CALIFORNIA: Yes, hi, Nancy. My question is, even if they go ahead and arrest Zimmerman and he`s charged and he`s not convicted, do you really think he`ll ever be able to walk the street again? Anywhere he goes, he`s a marked man. So he`s going to be living in hiding forever. So they need to go ahead and arrest him and let him hide in jail.
GRACE: If he is acquitted, I think he can absolutely walk free, unconcerned. He may end up moving.
April in Kansas. Hi, April, what`s your question?
APRIL, CALLER FROM KANSAS: Well, I actually have a couple of questions, but Zimmerman looks quite a bit bigger than Trayvon. Am I not right?
GRACE: Well, his friend is saying no, but what`s your second question? I`ll ask him very quickly.
APRIL: Did Zimmerman have mace on him? And why would -- thank you.
GRACE: Good question. Joe Oliver, what is Zimmerman`s true height and weight? And, I mean, at the time, not now, because I know that you say he doesn`t have an appetite. And did he have mace?
OLIVER: George`s height is 5`8". And I`m guessing he weighs about 170 pounds. George when I first met him, yes, was as big as that mugshot picture shows, but he`s not that big anymore. He`s a shorter man. He`s a smaller man. He`s a fitter man.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: All right. What is your --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There`s gunshots.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: You just heard gunshots?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: How many?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Just one.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Everyone, let`s stop and remember Army Specialist Ryan Connolly, 24, Vacaville, California, killed Afghanistan. Bronze Star, Purple Heart, Combat Medic Badge. Loved outdoors, sailing, baseball, restoring classic cars. His `70s Nova. Leaves behind parents Jim and Robin, sister, Kelly, brother, Michael. Also served Afghanistan. Widow, Stephanie, daughter, Kayla.
Ryan Connolly, American hero.
Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us.
Everyone, I`m signing off for now, but as of tonight, all eyes on Florida. We want justice. Whatever that may be.
I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern, and until then, good night, friend.
END
