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Nancy Grace
Questions Raised by Police Video of George Zimmerman
Aired March 29, 2012 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, live, Sanford, Florida. A 17-year-old heads home to his dad`s condo, gunned down by the captain of neighborhood watch. As of tonight, no arrest. Protests all across the country.
Tonight, more claims the 17-year-old actually punched Zimmerman, slamming his head into the sidewalk as even more critical details emerge. Stunning report. Police wanted Zimmerman arrested that night, but somebody said no.
Bombshell tonight. Stunning surveillance video just released spots Zimmerman at the police station after the shooting. The secret police video reveals no sign of cuts, bruises, bleeding, much less a broken nose.
What else does the surveillance reveal? That Zimmerman walks in to the police department under arrest, as a criminal suspect. But within hours, he walks free. Why?
Tonight, has a defense witness emerged saying he sees Zimmerman on the ground that night? And are critical witnesses still not interviewed? Tonight, you hear the evidence.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I can`t see him. I don`t want to go out there. I don`t know what`s going on.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Does the bald guy in the red jacket look like he`s been beaten and bloodied?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He just said he shot him! (INAUDIBLE) the person is dead!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: New surveillance video of a handcuffed George Zimmerman.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You can see George Zimmerman in handcuffs walking into the Sanford Police Department to be questioned.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This video is the icing on the cake.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Zimmerman tells police it`s self-defense.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I didn`t see any evidence as he`s been fighting.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ABC News spoke exclusively with Martin`s 16-year- old girlfriend.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was walking fast when he say this man behind him (INAUDIBLE) do something to him. And then Trayvon come and say the man is still behind him, and then I come and say, Run!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was punched in the nose. His nose was broken. George was trying to get his head off the concrete. His firearm was shown. Trayvon Martin said something to the effect of, You`re going to die now, or you`re going to die tonight. At some point, George pulled his pistol and did what he did.
GRACE: Did he break his nose?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, he did.
GRACE: And were there gashes to the back of his head?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I believe that Trayvon had him on the ground and he was slamming his head against the concrete.
GRACE: Have you seen the injuries?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, I haven`t seen the injuries. I only heard the police report that was corroborated by "The Orlando Sentinel" and the Sanford police.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. You just saw video from Orlando`s WOFL and ABC "World News Tonight."
Bombshell tonight. Sanford, Florida, 17-year-old heads to his dad`s condo, gunned down by captain of neighborhood watch. Video just released spots Zimmerman at the PD just after the shooting. The video reveals no cuts, bruises, much less a broken nose.
What else? We see he is handcuffed. What does that mean? He`s under arrest. When you go to the police station for whatever, a parking ticket, do you get handcuffed? No, you do not because you are not under arrest. He is under arrest.
What happened in those critical hours? Who changed the course of this investigation? Why a few hours later was he suddenly able to walk free? No arrest occurred. Why?
Straight out to Martin Savidge, joining us there in Sanford, CNN correspondent. Martin, what does this video reveal? And where did it come from?
MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The video came from the Sanford Police Department, Nancy. They released some yesterday. That went to ABC. But they released a lot more today, six minutes worth of video.
And it shows George Zimmerman as he is taken into the police station. You already noted the handcuffs that were there. It is what people are not seeing that is raising so many eyebrows and raising so much concern -- no clear indication of the injuries that George Zimmerman said he suffered as a result of the life and death struggle with Trayvon market, no sign of blood, no signs of cuts to the back of the head, no sign of that broken nose, no sign of bruises, in fact, no sign of any stiffness or any problems moving and walking.
So all of that seems to tell a lot of people outside of the police department a lot, such as, is his story really true, Nancy.
GRACE: All right, I`ve got Martin Savidge with me, Jean Casarez, Deborah Roberts, our all-star lineup of defense lawyers.
Let`s all take a look at the video. Here we go. Here comes Zimmerman. As you`ll see, they have just come in to a special holding area where the police park. This is where they bring suspects in. There`s Zimmerman. He`s got on a red jacket, red and black. That becomes very important later on to this investigation.
He is handcuffed. That`s a sign he`s under arrest. He`s flanked back in front by police. They do that with a defendant so they don`t run the other way. He`s clearly under arrest. That`s the point I`m making tonight.
Did you see his face, as Savidge is telling us? He`s walking without any injuries. He`s not bleeding. You see nothing to his head, nothing to his face. Look at this. This is very important, walking along.
OK, straight out to Deborah Roberts, news anchor, Florida News Network, joining us from Orlando. Deborah, weigh in.
DEBORAH ROBERTS, FLORIDA NEWS NETWORK: Well, it looks like George Zimmerman -- once again, his case has been blown completely out of the water with this video that`s been released. It shows, as we`ve heard, no injuries, not even a grass stain. And while his jacket may have been clean -- maybe he just put it back on -- what about his pants? There`s no blood. There`s no bruising. There`s no gashes.
So how can this be a claim of self-defense when the video that has been released from the Sanford Police Department clearly shows that George Zimmerman was not attacked?
GRACE: We are taking your calls. Jean Casarez, legal correspondent, "In Session," there had to be a bloody shirt. There had to be. If his story is true, there had to be a shirt covered in blood because if his nose was broken, Jean Casarez, that blood would have gone straight down, gushing down like a fire hydrant.
Where`s the blood? Where`s the bloody shirt, Jean Casarez? Keep rolling that video, Dana. Go ahead, Jean.
JEAN CASAREZ, "IN SESSION": Nancy, let`s look at the timeline. We are understanding that this video was shot after Zimmerman shot Trayvon Martin.
Let`s also look at the police incident report from the officer that was called to the scene. He said, quote, "While I was in such close contact with Zimmerman, I could observe that his back appeared to be wet and was covered in grass, as if he`d been laying on the ground."
Zimmerman was also bleeding from the nose and back of his head. Zimmerman was placed in the rear of a police vehicle. That`s the vehicle right there. And he was given First Aid by the Sanford Fire Department.
GRACE: Keep it rolling. Keep it rolling. I want to see his shirt. I want to see the shirt, Dana! Roll the video.
Unleash the lawyers, Eleanor Odom, Raymond Giudice, Alex Sanchez. Eleanor, where`s the bloody T-shirt?
ELEANOR ODOM, PROSECUTOR: Nancy, who knows where that is and what`s going on with the shirt. Here`s what the police didn`t do, though. They didn`t take pictures to show what they said had happened, that he had gashes on his head and a bloody nose.
If they had had that type of evidence, that would solve it for all of us, instead of this grainy video, which clearly there he`s without injury and without any bleeding.
GRACE: So Giudice, what, there in the patrol car, they had a fresh T- shirt for Zimmerman to put on in?
RAYMOND GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Subpoena number one. EMS, did you clean him up? Did you find blood on his nose and the back of his head? Yes, yes, yes, under oath. Your witness, Mr. Prosecutor. He cleaned him up in the car.
I do agree with you. I`d like to examine his clothing with forensic evidence...
GRACE: Oh, I got to see this!
GIUDICE: ... for grass stains...
GRACE: Put Giudice up.
GIUDICE: You don`t like the EMS? You don`t think they`re under oath and they`re going to testify honestly that they cleaned him up...
GRACE: I didn`t say that!
GIUDICE: ... four hours earlier? Well, I`ll take a live professionally trained EMT over a grainy video any day.
GRACE: Really?
GIUDICE: Yes.
GRACE: Then back it up, Dana. A let`s see him walking through that door with a perfectly clean T-shirt. All right, Sanchez, I don`t need to ask you about your vision because we can all see that this T-shirt is not covered in blood.
But let me ask you this, Sanchez. Take off your defense hat just a moment. Bring in all the lawyers. Bring them up. All right, when -- and does it ever shift the role of aggressor? We hear 911 say, Don`t follow him. Follows him anyway. I can hear him breathing. All right, I hear him following the teen.
But even with his story, Sanchez, if you take Zimmerman`s story to be true and the teen finally comes back on him, when does he give up role of aggressor? He is the aggressor, is he not?
ALEX SANCHEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No. I disagree with that. Why is he the aggressor? Let`s assume for argument`s sake he decided to follow Mr. Trayvon Martin improperly because he`s wearing a hoodie or because he`s black or something like that. That`s still not a crime. It may be improper, it`s un-American, but it`s not a crime.
And he supposedly went up to this young man and started asking him some questions. Now, at that point, the young man may have turned around and became defensive and possibly attacked him. We don`t know at this point.
GRACE: All right, we know -- I don`t know how you`re twisting this story. But we know initially, he`s the aggressor. But under the law, I`m wondering if the defense is going to be able to claim that those roles reversed.
We are taking your calls. But right now, I have a very special guest joining me. It`s Cheryl Brown (ph). Her son witnessed this incident. Police have spoken to her son. And from my understanding, we learn a lot.
Let`s to go Ms. Brown joining us from Florida. Ms. Brown, thank you for being with us.
CHERYL BROWN, SON INTERVIEWED ABOUT TRAYVON MARTIN INCIDENT (via telephone): Thank you.
GRACE: Ms. Brown, what does your son tell you he observed?
BROWN: He left our front door to go outside and walk the dog. And he heard screams of pain and the word "Help" coming from the back yard or the back area. So he headed that way.
And when he got to the back, he saw someone laying down facing the opposite direction, so their back was facing him. He watched them for just a few seconds, he says he thinks it was about 10 seconds, until the dog pulled away in the opposite direction.
He went to go get the dog, pick up the leash, and he took a few steps back towards where he was when he could see the body. And before he could get back to that point, he heard the gunshot, and then he didn`t hear anything else. There was silence.
GRACE: Ms. Brown, where does the scream -- where do the screams, "Help, help me" come from? Where in that scenario do those screams fit?
BROWN: He heard the screams continuously from the time he stepped out of the front of the house until he got to the back and when he went to go retrieve the dog. He heard it the entire time. He has told investigators that he`s not certain if the person on the ground was the person screaming or not.
GRACE: OK. With me is Cheryl Brown. And Ms. Brown, I`m dissecting everything as quickly as I can. I`m going to ask you to tell me that again. But before I do, one question. Your son told cops the person on the ground was wearing red?
BROWN: He did. If I can explain how that came about...
GRACE: OK.
BROWN: Initially, one -- investigator Serino interviewed him. When they first came to our house, they said -- they sat him down and said, Tell us what happened. They were not recording what he was saying at that point.
When they got to the description of the person, they asked if he could tell what race they were. His answer was, No, it was too dark. I couldn`t tell. They were facing the opposite way. They asked if he could tell the color of their shirt. And at that point, they gave him options. Was it black? Was it white? Was it red?
I don`t feel that they should have given him an option. I would think that that would be...
GRACE: OK.
BROWN: ... something standard...
GRACE: So he did tell police red when given the option.
Martin Savidge, very important. When was this video taken?
SAVIDGE: Nancy, that video was taken, according to the timestamp, at 7:52. That means it is just over a half hour since the incident when police were first reported to the scene. It`s not hours, it`s a half hour.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
911 OPERATOR: Do you need police, fire or medical?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My brother said someone got shot behind their house.
911 OPERATOR: Is your brother out there right now?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No. He ran in the house.
911 OPERATOR: OK. Do you know who was shot?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have no idea. I`m inside. It`s behind our house.
911 OPERATOR: It`s behind your house?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
911 OPERATOR: You didn`t see anything else or hear anything else?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No. I wasn`t outside.
911 OPERATOR: OK. Did you hear the shot?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I heard something. And my brother ran in the house.
911 OPERATOR: OK. And your brother didn`t see anything else?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My brother saw it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are live and taking your calls. Straight back to Martin Savidge. I want to go over this video just emerging right now, this video that shows Zimmerman completely blood-free. This is just 30 minutes after the initial call to police comes in.
Let`s take this shot in full, please, Dana. I want the viewers to see it. Go ahead, Martin.
SAVIDGE: Yes, that`s what`s so very striking is that, at first, I thought, Well, this is some time later. It`s not. As you pointed out, it`s about a half hour since the police were called to the scene and found Trayvon Martin`s body.
It`s quick, and even despite that timeframe, look at him. There`s hardly any indication on camera. And I think the video quality is pretty good. It may not be HD, but it`s good quality. You do not see injuries, Nancy, in this video.
GRACE: To Dr. Bill Lloyd, board-certified surgeon, pathologist. Dr. Lloyd, what would you speck from a broken nose?
DR. BILL LLOYD, SURGEON AND PATHOLOGIST: Well, it`s very interesting, Nancy. With this case, we`re getting new nuggets of information every day, some from the police, some from media, some from family members. This story continues to evolve.
With regard specifically to a broken nose, you don`t necessarily have to have bleeding. You can have damage to the nose and not have bleeding. Not long ago, Kobe Bryant suffered a broken nose and continued to play in the game. So you can`t make an absolute judgment based on that video whether or not the gentleman had a broken nose.
Well, you know what the police reports indicate, that he had sustained injuries, and they were discussed in the police report, including the laceration to his scalp.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The father of George Zimmerman, the neighborhood watch guy who shot and killed Trayvon Martin, says that Martin beat his son and threatened to kill him.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Trayvon Martin was smashing his son, George Zimmerman`s, head against concrete.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He is, of course, becoming (ph) the worst (ph) story line that his son has told (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is there any evidence you see of a fight between the two men?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: In the Trayvon Martin shooting.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was killed after, it has been revealed, that he was being followed.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The teenager and the neighborhood watch, George Zimmerman.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: George is a very law-abiding individual.
GEORGE ZIMMERMAN, NEIGHBORHOOD WATCH: Doing the right thing even when it`s tough.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Zimmerman`s father says that his son was beaten and threatened.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Because I didn`t see any evidence as he`s been fighting about it.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He says he acted out of self-defense.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s following! He was the aggressor!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Looking into all aspects of the 911 call.
911 OPERATOR: Do you think he`s yelling "Help"?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
911 OPERATOR: And what is your...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What happened on that night?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back. We are taking your calls. Joining me now is a neighbor, a friend of George Zimmerman`s. With me, Olivia Bertalan. Ms. Bertalan, thank you for being with us.
OLIVIA BERTALAN, FRIEND AND FORMER NEIGHBOR (via telephone): Any time.
GRACE: Ms. Bertalan, describe what you know about George Zimmerman. What kind of person is he?
BERTALAN: A very caring person, from what I know of him. We were broken into just August 11th, a month after we moved into what we thought was a very nice neighborhood. And he was one of the first people to come over and make sure we were OK.
He seemed very caring, very concerned, was very nice and continued to check in on us and gave me a list of phone numbers to reach him or his wife, and offered a hand and said that if I ever need somewhere to go, if I didn`t feel safe during the day, that his wife was at home. I could go over there. He was (INAUDIBLE) He was a very caring, gentle and calm guy.
GRACE: What do you make of the claims you are hearing regarding the Trayvon Martin shooting?
BERTALAN: I think the assumptions are crazy. I wish people would chill out with all the assumptions on both sides. I think if George`s past from five years ago, or no matter how long ago, is relevant, then somehow, Trayvon`s should be relevant, too. And if it`s not, then none of it should be.
I think people are being ridiculous. And it`s horrifying, the death threats and the things that are being put against him when they don`t have direct proof that it even was anything other than self-defense.
GRACE: Well, Ms. Bertalan, I don`t believe that you have heard any reference to Mr. Zimmerman`s past or to Trayvon Martin`s past on our show.
BERTALAN: No, not on your show.
GRACE: Ms. Bertalan, let me ask you, did Zimmerman routinely carry a gun? On this evening, he was wearing a hip holster, or had his weapon, a .9-millimeter automatic weapon, tucked into his waist.
BERTALAN: I`ve never, ever seen a gun on him. But I guess it was. And I mean, he was always wearing tucked-in shirts, for the most part, when I saw him. And I never once saw a gun. I`m assuming he had it on him, but I have never seen it.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SYBRINA FULTON, TRAYVON MARTIN`S MOTHER: This video is the icing on the cake.
CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: Does the bald guy in the red jacket look like he`s been beaten and bloodied?
ROBERT ZIMMERMAN, SR., GEORGE ZIMMERMAN`S FATHER: Hitting his nose, hitting his head on the concrete.
GRACE: Did he break his nose?
FRANK TAAFFE, FRIEND AND NEIGHBOR OF GEORGE ZIMMERMAN: Yes. Trayvon had him on the ground and he was slamming his head against the concrete.
FULTON: They have had the 911 tapes and they have also had witnesses.
MARY CUTCHER, WITNESSED SHOOTING AFTERMATH: Heard the crying. It was a little boy. As soon as the gun went off, the crying stopped. There`s just someone screaming outside.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: Do you think he`s yelling help?
CUTCHER: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He said he lost the man. And then the man Trayvon said was following him. I asked him to run. He said he was creepy. He`s crazy.
ZIMMERMAN: I don`t believe that happened. I don`t believe she was on the phone with him.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: An innocent citizen was murdered.
GRACE: Did he break his nose?
TAAFFE: Yes, he did.
GRACE: And were there gashes to the back of his head?
TAAFFE: I believe that Trayvon had him on the ground and he was slamming his head against the concrete.
GRACE: Have you seen the injuries?
TAAFFE: No, I haven`t seen the injuries. I only heard the police report that was corroborated by the "Orlando Sentinel" and the Sanford police.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: So all of these folks, people, nobody has told me they`ve seen the injuries. I have not seen a doctor`s report. I haven`t seen X-rays. Nothing.
Very quickly, Dr. Bill Lloyd, with a broken nose, wouldn`t that show up in an X-ray?
DR. BILL LLOYD, BOARD CERTIFIED SURGEON AND PATHOLOGIST: Interestingly, a broken nose is not a broken bone, Nancy. It`s only cartilage and there may not be significant changes on X-ray. It requires an examination typically by an ENT specialist. But the important point that you raise, Nancy, are the facts. We have to wait for all the facts and not have them dribbling to us in piecemeal fashion.
We`re Americans and the final three words of the "Pledge of Allegiance" are justice for all.
GRACE: And Dr. Lloyd, I appreciate that coming from you, an M.D., but sir, I am J.D., and for once, for once, let me enjoy it. I`ve got you over the barrel. Because in this country, typically, when you got a dead body, somebody goes to jail. Now they can make all the claims they want to when they get in front of a jury. But a self-defense case is not made in the police house.
Unleash the lawyers. Eleanor Odom, Ray Giudice, Alex Sanchez, and special guest, Natalie Jackson. This is the Martin family attorney joining us.
All right. Eleanor, this seems a little bit backwards to me because at the police station you don`t try the case, you don`t hear the self- defense claim, and adjudicated and go, OK, you`re not guilty. Walk free.
Eleanor, he walked in in handcuffs. What does that mean?
ELEANOR ODOM, FELONY PROSECUTOR, DEATH PENALTY QUALIFIED: It means he was detained and he was not free to leave.
GRACE: That means under arrest under the constitutional interpretation.
ODOM: Yes, pretty much.
GRACE: By case law, you go into a police department in handcuffs, you`re under arrest.
ODOM: Yes. And Nancy, that also means all his Miranda rights apply. In other words, if he wants to give a statement, he has the right to an attorney because of the fact that he isn`t free to leave. So this video tells you a lot right here. When you see him walking in flanked by those officers and what his status was at that time.
GRACE: And that status would be what, Eleanor?
ODOM: That he was under arrest. That he had been detained. And the key words, Nancy, I keep saying it. You`re not free to leave. He could not just get out and walk out.
GRACE: The street term is under arrest. OK?
ODOM: Yes.
GRACE: Not free to leave. Detained. That`s all lawyer talk for you`re under arrest.
All right, Giudice, I`m going to violate the number one rule of trying a case. I`m going to ask you a question and I don`t know what you`re going to say for once. About how many times have you gone into a police station?
RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: A couple hundred?
GRACE: All right. Have you ever --
GIUDICE: In my professional capacity. No, in my professional --
GRACE: Have you ever, ever gone in handcuffed?
GIUDICE: Never.
GRACE: Why?
GIUDICE: Because I have never been detained, detained or arrested.
GRACE: Witnesses are not handcuffed.
GIUDICE: As a general rule, that`s correct.
GRACE: When you are -- when you are handcuffed and taken to the police station, flanked by officers and dragged out at the back of a car, you`re under arrest.
GIUDICE: Nancy, everything you --
GRACE: You want to argue a constitutional splitting of the hair with me?
GIUDICE: I`m not. Nancy, you missed the most important fact. The prosecutor`s office, the people who actually have to go to court and are entrusted under the Florida constitution to prove a case beyond a reasonable doubt said we don`t have a case, Mr. Officer, let him go. That`s what happened.
GRACE: OK, and to you, Natalie Jackson, I`m crying B.S. on that. Because in all my years prosecuting cases, I never called the police and said, hey, you know, you just arrested that guy. Go ahead and let him walk. That never happened to me. Help me out here.
NATALIE JACKSON, ATTORNEY FOR TRAYVON MARTIN`S FAMILY: And I -- and I would guess it never happens on a Sunday that the police chief and the senior prosecutor, the head, not his assistant, comes and makes that decision. There is something going on here with the tape. You know, people can see what they see.
We can`t -- people have common sense. They`ve heard the 911 tape. They`ve heard the dispatch. They`ve heard dispatch tell Zimmerman to stay in his car. They`ve heard him say these A-holes always get away. They`ve heard him say he`s running away from me.
This is a case -- Zimmerman needs to be arrested. He needs to be arrested today. I agree with you, Nancy, that he is in handcuffs. He is in a police station. We might have a speedy trial problem here.
GRACE: Well, you -- what do you mean you might have a speedy trial problem? You`ve got to have an indictment. And then you have to have a demand for speedy trial. And then that demand has to run. And end for their to be a speedy trial problem. So what speedy trial problem are you talk about?
JACKSON: From the time you arrest in Florida, you have 175 days to be brought to trial.
GRACE: Well, you have to have a charge. You have to be charged with a crime.
JACKSON: I agree with that. But there is a legal definition of arrest also.
GRACE: OK. Alex Sanchez, clear up the demand for speedy trial issue.
ALEX SANCHEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Speedy trial means somebody gets arrested, charges are filed. From the moment charges are filed, there is a certain amount of time in which the case needs to go to trial.
But let me tell you something, Nancy. The fact that he was arrested and subsequently the police decided to drop the case or release him, that`s not uncommon. Certainly not in New York City. Because plenty of people are brought in to police stations and the prosecutors review the case and say, you know something, we`re going to decline to prosecute this case right now. There simply isn`t enough evidence.
GRACE: You know what, that`s a good point, Sanchez. That`s a good point. But what I find interesting is the lawyers got involved. None of them had even been to the scene and they got let him go. Because I don`t understand that. They haven`t been to the police station. They haven`t seen the guy. They haven`t been to the scene. They`re sitting on their sofa having some chips and they go, yes, let him go.
I don`t get it. Go back to the other lawyers. Natalie Jackson, Eleanor Odom, Raymond Giudice, Alex Sanchez.
OK, Giudice, question. You hear what Jackson just told you. You`ve already heard it on the tapes. He is the initial aggressor. There`s really no doubt about it. All right? He is following Trayvon Martin. Even though he is told, don`t do that. But does Martin ever turn into the aggressor when he finally turns on him?
GIUDICE: Look, that`s what this case hinges upon. Is there any evidence to substantiate that the young man became physical against Zimmerman and therefore Zimmerman has the presumption that he was defending himself? That`s what the case is about.
GRACE: OK. Giudice, put him up. Do you remember a little phrase that ran around in openings and closings when you and I would try cases at the same time? A gun, it makes a big man little and a little man big.
GIUDICE: Yes. Yes, I do.
GRACE: Remember that? And what does that mean to you?
GIUDICE: And let me just say one thing --
GRACE: Trayvon Martin turns around and sees a gun. What do you think he`s going to do?
GIUDICE: Listen. Listen, I will say one thing. I think Mr. Zimmerman`s main problem is this. Trained law enforcement has all kinds of ways short of non-deadly force. Physical, verbal, mace, baton. Zimmerman, his only way to protect himself is the .9 millimeter. I actually think that`s a very -- going to be a difficult argument for him to make should he go to trial.
I agree with you there.
GRACE: Back to Sheryl Brown whose son witnessed the incident.
Miss Brown, I know police have spoken to your son. Do you believe that there are other witnesses police have not spoken to?
CHERYL BROWN, SON INTERVIEWED ABOUT TRAYVON MARTIN INCIDENT (via phone): I`m not aware of that. I know that there are several of my neighbors who called into 911 and they have spoken to them. But I haven`t -- I`m not aware of anyone that they haven`t spoken to that they need to.
GRACE: To Natisha Lance. Natisha, isn`t it true that Trayvon Martin`s girlfriend, who says she is on the phone at the time all this is happening, and here`s -- then hears the earpiece fall out of his ear, according to her story, as if he is having a fight. Is it true police have not spoken to her?
NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: That is true, according to the attorneys for Trayvon Martin`s family. They have not spoken to her. And actually, it was Trayvon`s father who located those phone records.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Someone is screaming outside.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: Do you think he`s yelling help?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: All right. What is your --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There`s gunshots.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: We are taking your calls. Angela in South Carolina, what`s your question?
ANGELA, CALLER FROM SOUTH CAROLINA: First of all, I just want to say I admire your compassion for all the victims and you`re like an angel sent from heaven for the victims as well as their families that are suffering.
GRACE: Thank you.
ANGELA: But I just -- this case is just so overwhelming, I guess to me, because if he was brought to the police station in handcuffs and let go because of what he said, why isn`t every, quote/unquote, aggressor treated like that? If I got arrested for something and said, well, I didn`t do it. They`re not just going to automatically let me go. Something like that should have been used in court. But I don`t understand, like, what the police in Florida or whoever is making the arrest is just not seeing cause for an arrest.
GRACE: Let`s go out to Alisia Adams, attorney for Cheryl Brown. You are a well respected attorney in this same area where this happened.
Alisia, what do you make of it?
ALISIA ADAMS, ATTORNEY FOR CHERYL BROWN, SON INTERVIEWED ABOUT INCIDENT (via phone): You know, Nancy, this case is just (INAUDIBLE) with a lot of us, I think. I think it`s bizarre that my client Austin wasn`t interviewed the night of this question. You know, typically when a case of this magnitude, the officers that are doing the investigation would naturally talk and you would expect to anyone who called and dialed 911 and especially anyone that was an actual eyewitness to some of the actual incidents.
Questioning him nine days or eight days after the actual incident is bizarre to me. You do obviously remember something the night off. The facts are fresh in your mind. Your memory is a little bit fresher. But to interview him eight days later I thought was bizarre. The fact that the state attorney, the actual state attorney came down and was actually involved the night of the incident.
I also think that is bizarre. Of course seeing these released tapes with no blood, no Band-Aid when George Zimmerman is saying that he was -- his head was smashed into concrete. I think that`s bizarre.
GRACE: Right.
ADAMS: You know, it`s disappointing. I think that there`s more than enough probable cause to make an arrest on George Zimmerman. And I just don`t know --
GRACE: Well, hold on. Let`s go back to the injuries.
To Jean Casarez, legal correspondent, "In Session." Jean, let`s go through what the cops say. What you have learned the cops say about his injuries.
JEAN CASAREZ, LEGAL CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION": And this is from the incident report. And this is from the officer that was at the scene and even states in the report, I was so close to George Zimmerman that I saw his injuries, lacerations to the back of his head. Blood coming from his nose and the back of his jacket very wet and stained with grass. That`s what the incident report says.
GRACE: We are taking your calls. I want to go to Andrew J. Scott, former chief of police.
Andrew, myself and all the other criminal lawyers on this panel, I assume, I know Eleanor, you have, have been out beating the streets. I know sometimes it`s as late as 5:00 a.m. when I`d have to go back into trial the next morning, trying to nail down witnesses that I`m just learning about.
Typically, cops do go as Attorney Alisia Adams was just saying, that night of you find the witness that night before they get gone. Before their memory fades, before people talk to them about the case. You find that witness immediately.
ANDREW J. SCOTT, FMR. CHIEF OF POLICE, BOCA RATON, FL.; PRESIDENT, AJS CONSULTING: Sure. Absolutely. That`s one of the hallmarks of a basic investigation. Particularly of a homicide is that you want to do an area canvas. And in particular, if you have other calls that came in through 911, you establish that identity of who that person is so you can physically contact them. Because as time moves on, memories diminish and then on top of that, with the type of media coverage, there is a lot of influence that can possibly occur that may influence a potential witness`s testimony. Because now they`re not sure what they saw based on maybe being suggested by something they read or something that spoke to them before the police got to them.
GRACE: Back to Martin Savidge, CNN correspondent, joining us there on the scene.
Martin, according to Chief Lee`s earlier statement in a press release just before he stepped down, why were formal charges prohibited?
MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Basically three words, "Stand Your Ground." That`s the law that is on the Florida books that he points to and says as a result of that law, which once George Zimmerman said he was fighting for his life, he said -- Chief Lee -- that the city was prohibited from arresting him. They could further investigate but they could not arrest him that night. Those were his words.
GRACE: I understand an elderly couple in this area has actually fled their own home. Why, Martin?
SAVIDGE: That`s because their address was apparently tweeted. Spike Lee was one of those who re-tweeted the address he received --
GRACE: Excuse me? Who? What?
SAVIDGE: Spike Lee, the movie director.
GRACE: The movie director?
SAVIDGE: The movie director, Spike Lee.
GRACE: Tweeted what?
SAVIDGE: That`s correct, yes. He got -- tweeted the address of what he thought he said was George Zimmerman`s home.
GRACE: Why?
SAVIDGE: Instead it turns out to be the wrong address. He tweeted the address of the elderly couple. And yes, a good question, Nancy, as you always ask, why would Spike Lee want to put George Zimmerman`s address out there even if it was the legitimate address. What was the intention and many want to know that.
GRACE: You know what? I`d like to know that, Martin Savidge, but I got a lot bigger problems than what Spike Lee is doing tonight.
My big problem right now is where is that bloody shirt? Tell me, Martin Savidge, please tell me that all the clothing was removed from Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin and is at a crime lab somewhere.
SAVIDGE: You are right, Nancy. According to the Sanford Police Department, clothing from both the victim and George Zimmerman were collected that night. Now it`s believed that he is wearing the clothing he was at the crime scene with when you see him in that video, but it has been subsequently collected, and we understand will be tested.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: Did you hear the shot?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I heard something, and my brother ran in the house.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: OK. And your brother didn`t see anything else?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My brother saw it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls. To Pete in Alaska. Hi, Pete, what`s your question?
PETE, CALLER FROM ALASKA: Hi, Nancy. I guess my question is twofold. Number one, I`d like to know how the "Stand Your Ground" law can apply to George Zimmerman, because as I understand the "Stand Your Ground," it means you stand with your property or you stand with your family member or you stand in defense of a helpless third party, and as I understand it, George Zimmerman pursued Mr. Trayvon Martin even after being told do not pursue, so I guess my question is, how does that law apply given those --
GRACE: Good question. Eleanor Odom, when I think of "Stand Your Ground," I think more of somebody coming into your home and breaking in and then you shoot them.
ODOM: Right. That`s what you would typically think, but here if there was any force used against you, then in Florida you`re allowed to use deadly force to protect yourself. So it`s not quite just your home. Your property. But also your person as well.
GRACE: Now to Dr. Bethany Marshall. All right, Bethany. Weigh in.
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST, AUTHOR OF "DEALBREAKERS": I really find it hard to believe that George Zimmerman was released because of the "Stand Your Ground" law. The likelihood is that someone in that police department, either the arresting officer, the police captain, somebody, was identified with George Zimmerman and by that I mean someone in that police department had already had an experience in their own professional life of experiencing aggression out of control.
GRACE: Everyone, let`s stop and remember, Army Staff Sergeant James Justice, 32, Grimes, Iowa, killed Afghanistan. Two Bronze Stars, Purple Heart, Army Commendation. Buried Arlington. Raised on a farm. Loved playing with his Boxer dog, games with his daughter, cooking dinner for his wife. Favorite teams, Iowa Hawkeyes, Minnesota Vikings.
Leaves behind parents, Lilivan and Larry, brother, Kenny, sisters Denise and Christy, widow, Amanda, daughter, Cadence.
James Justice, American hero.
Thanks to our guests but especially to you.
Everyone, Children`s Health Care Atlanta provides care, covers medical costs for children, pediatric cancer, transplant, fractures. It`s all possible through your support. For info or donations, go to CHOA.org and click on "Support Children."
And thank you to little crime fighter Chloe, inspired by our show. And told to follow her dreams. Her goal is to work in the justice system. Here she is with brother Louise.
Everyone, more on Trayvon Martin`s case, watch Dr. Drew coming up. Tonight our prayer is for justice. Whatever that may be.
Everyone, I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern, and until then, good night, friend.
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