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Nancy Grace
Voice Analysis Says It`s Not Zimmerman`s Screams
Aired April 02, 2012 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, live Sanford, Florida. A 17-year-old heads home to his dad`s condo, gunned down by the captain of neighborhood watch. As of tonight, no arrest. Protests across the country, more claims the 17-year-old actually punched Zimmerman, slamming Zimmerman`s head into the sidewalk.
Even more critical details emerging, stunning report police wanted Zimmerman arrested for the shooting that night, but somebody said no.
Bombshell tonight. In the last hours, stunning surveillance video zeros in on the back of Zimmerman`s head at the police station after the shooting. Does the enhanced police video reveal a deep gash to the back of the head? Now, Zimmerman walks into the police department under arrest as a criminal suspect, but within hours, he walks free. Why?
Screams for help unmistakable in that 911 call, but whose screams? Tonight, renowned audio experts insist it`s not Zimmerman. And why did police dispatchers turn away an ambulance for Zimmerman? Tonight, you hear the evidence.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We took that video, we enhanced it, we redigitized it to find what we think is the clear, sharpest image yet of what may have happened that night, revealing for the first time what appeared to be a pair of gashes or welts on George Zimmerman`s head.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The sharper video now appearing to show some form of mark or gash on the back of Zimmerman`s head.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Does the bald guy in the red jacket look like he`s been beaten and bloodied?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A police report from that night describes blood on the back of his head and his nose.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) dead! Laying on the ground!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Emergency responders canceled a second ambulance called to take Zimmerman to the hospital.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I can`t see him. I don`t want to go out there. I don`t know what`s going on.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s my brother. It sounds just like my voice. That`s what I sound like if I yell.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What the software is telling us is it`s not Zimmerman.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is not George Zimmerman screaming.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It didn`t even sound like a ``Help.`` It just sounded so painful.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Bombshell tonight. Live, Sanford, Florida. Tonight, video enhancement zeros in on the back of Zimmerman`s head as he walks into that police station. Does it reveal the gash?
Now, I`m hearing in my ear we actually are getting the video? Is that correct, Dana? Yes, no.
OK, take a look. Watch the screen. We`re laying it in right now. And as we play it for you-- it`s enhanced video of the back of Zimmerman`s head-- is this a game changer? Does this show Zimmerman actually sustained gashes to the back of his head, as he first said?
Out to Matt Gutman joining us, ABC News correspondent there in Sanford, Florida. Matt, what can you tell us?
MATT GUTMAN, ABC CORRESPONDENT: Hey, Nancy. Well, there does appear to be something on the back of Zimmerman`s head. You see those twin welts. They`re both red. And we`ve seen it in a number of frames. It`s not just, you know, one of these grab frames, but throughout this series of images, him getting into the police station, walking through it.
There`s a picture of him walking full frontal. You see the entirety of his face. Throughout these, you see these glimpse of what appears to be these red welts on the back of his head.
Now, we know that he was treated at the scene. We know that the police report said he was bleeding from the nose and from the back of the head at some point. Now, the degree of those injuries, as you mentioned earlier, could not have been that bad because one of the ambulances was recalled from the scene. EMTs treated him there. He was released. Police felt he was well enough to go into the police station to be questioned, and clearly, that`s what happened.
So I`m not sure it`s a game changer, but it does reveal better, sharper images than we`ve seen yet of what George Zimmerman did look like last (sic) night.
And we shouldn`t just focus on the back of the head, Nancy, but also on the front. That nose-- he claims his nose was broken. His brother says it was broken so severely that it is still healing, it`s still swollen. You look at those pictures. I don`t know. I didn`t see that it was that badly broken. But again, I`m not a-- you know, I`m not in forensics and I`m not a medical professional.
GRACE: All right, Matt Gutman is with us, ABC News correspondent.
You`re now seeing good shots of the enhanced video. CNN is stating it appears there are gashes to the back of the head. But I`m going to go to you, Gutman, ABC News correspondent, who`s been on the scene from the get- go. What are you seeing in the enhanced video? You don`t really see it right there mostly because we have writing over the back of his head. But when he walks away from-- there you go. Good thinking.
Let`s look at the back of his head. Now, we`re slowing it down, Matt. Hold on. Let`s see what we can really see here. Look at the back of Zimmerman`s head. Notice on the highlighted section of what appears to be on the back of his head.
OK, Matt Gutman, let`s hear your take. Repeat to me what you`re seeing on the back of the head because I know this is enhanced, but I`m not really seeing a lot more than I saw before. I see a mark back there, but I can`t really tell anything from that mark.
GUTMAN: Well, from before, we couldn`t see anything. His head just looked like a blob. You could tell that he basically shaved his head. He was close-shaven in his face, took, had perhaps a light beard.
Now we`re able to pick up a tremendous amount of detail. And again, when we talk about enhancement, this is basically a cleaned-up image. What we received from the Sanford Police Department was an encrypted 600 megabyte file of their surveillance video from that night. It took a tremendous amount of time, Nancy, to break it down and then rebuild it back together.
And so what you`re seeing is a cleaned-up, sharpened version of that. And I pretty clearly saw what other people claimed that they saw earlier, which are either gashes or red welts.
GRACE: I do see that mark on the back of his head.
GUTMAN: It does appear to be there in more than one-- right.
GRACE: I see a horizontal--
GUTMAN: And there are a couple of them. You keep seeing it--
GRACE: --thing. And I see also--
GUTMAN: Exactly.
GRACE: It looks like a T-bone, and I can`t really tell what is what. I will say this. I`m seeing more now than I saw the first time. But at this view, Matt, I can`t tell-- is it fresh? Is it bleeding? What is it? Is it dirt? Is it a cut? But I am seeing more than I saw at the beginning, Matt Gutman.
GUTMAN: I think, Nancy, that it`s not-- I think we can rule out the fact that it`s a deep cut. He did not require stitches that night. He was not hospitalized. I don`t think it was any significant or major cut.
What it appears to be is something that doesn`t actually contradict what Zimmerman said that night and in the police report, that at some point, he and Trayvon Martin scuffled, that at some point during that scuffle, they were rolling around. You obviously heard the screams.
Whatever it was, it was a fierce fight. They thought it was very serious. And maybe his claim is true that Trayvon Martin was trying to bang his head on the concrete. And I think those marks show that something is there.
But I think beyond that, Nancy, we have to look at the significance of what that means. And it may actually be that it`s not that significant. It shows that they were engaged in a scuffle. That we knew. But the question is, did George Zimmerman during that fight believe that he was going to die? Because that is what is critical here. If he can prove in a court of law, if he`s ever charged-- and he may not be--
GRACE: OK, now, hold on, Gutman.
GUTMAN: --that he feared for his life--
GRACE: Hold on, Gutman. You earlier mentioned that you`re not an MD. That`s medical doctor, correct?
GUTMAN: That is true. At least that I know of, but yeah.
GRACE: Are you by chance a JD? Are you a juris doctor, as well?
GUTMAN: I`m certainly not.
GRACE: All right. Well, let`s just--
GUTMAN: That`s you, Nancy. That`s you.
GRACE: --zip it on the legal analysis for a moment, Gutman.
Unleash the lawyers. Joining me, Sue Moss, New York, Alex Sanchez, New York, Darryl Cohen, Atlanta, and attorney for Trayvon Martin`s family Daryl Parks is joining us. Also with us tonight and taking your calls, Ronquavis Fulton. This is Trayvon Martin`s cousin speaking on his behalf. And speaking on George Zimmerman`s behalf is Frank Taaffe, friend and neighbor of Zimmerman, joining us out of Florida.
But first let`s go to the lawyers. All right, we`re hearing Matt Gutman from ABC break it down with this enhanced video that I believe he got. To you, Sue Moss. Let`s quickly break it down regarding self- defense.
SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: Oh--
GRACE: Now, hold on. Here`s my question. Let me zero in on my question. Whenever you are the aggressor, you don`t get to claim self- defense. You can`t chase somebody down with a gun, and when they turn around and punch you, then you claim self-defense.
You are the aggressor unless somehow, during this confrontation, could Martin turn into the aggressor when he beats Zimmerman`s head into the sidewalk? Moss, to you first.
MOSS: Not in this case! He-- I don`t care about those scratches! He is not the-- Zimmerman was the aggressor! This is how it goes down! He calls the police dispatch! He says he`s chasing this boy! And then you know what the police dispatch says? We don`t need you to do that.
Does Zimmerman go away? No! He continues! He takes his .9- millimeter pistol and he stalks this kid! He stalks this kid! And then at some point, a scuffle happened? Look, when you stalk a kid with a .9- millimeter pistol, you`re aggressive even in New York!
GRACE: All right, to you, Sanchez. In a confrontation-- let`s just look at the law. Remove the facts. Remove the facts. Remove the protests. Remove all the politicians jumping in on it, ensuring us we`re not going to get a fair jury or it`s going to be very difficult when you`ve got the governor and the president telling a jury what the outcome should be. That`s a whole `nother can of worms. But remove all that.
Under the law, Sanchez, once you are the aggressor and the victim turns on you, at any point do you lose your role as aggressor?
ALEX SANCHEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, you may. But that`s not what the issue is in this case. The issue is, was Zimmerman the aggressor? And you know, you keep using the aggressive term very loosely. How about using the term criminally aggressive? Was he criminally aggressive?
GRACE: Put him up!
SANCHEZ: And what exactly did he do to become criminally aggressive in this case--
GRACE: You know what?
SANCHEZ: --other than follow--
GRACE: Alex--
SANCHEZ: --Mr. Trayvon Martin. I don`t see it.
GRACE: Clearly, following him when he is told by 911 dispatch-- that`s the police-- when the police say, Stop, him continuing makes him the aggressor.
All right, Darryl Cohen, do you want to fight about that? You want a piece of that?
DARRYL COHEN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No, Nancy, I`m not fighting. But number one, we all know that police dispatch normally is not an officer. It`s someone who works--
GRACE: Well, we know that.
COHEN: --in the department. But Nancy, let`s face it. She tells him not to follow him--
GRACE: Wait~! No, no! No, no!
COHEN: --because--
GRACE: No~! No! No! Don`t just throw out a BS comment like that-- no offense to you, Darryl-- without backing it up. I know the dispatch are civilians, but they are still an arm of the police. Are you suggesting that when a dispatch says, Do not follow him--
COHEN: Nancy--
GRACE: --that a civilian should not take that as a police command?
COHEN: Absolutely. But what she`s saying to him is--
GRACE: Absolutely what?
COHEN: --Be safe. Don`t--
GRACE: Are you saying yes or no?
COHEN: I`m saying that he should listen, but on the other hand, she does not have the color or voice of authority. He felt that he needed--
GRACE: That`s not true!
COHEN: --to follow. And he wasn`t being an aggressor. He was following Trayvon Martin. That doesn`t make him an aggressor. No one has said that he had a gun out. He had a gun on him. Very different than having a gun and brandishing it about.
He followed. We don`t know how the fight started. We do know that he had a broken nose. We do know he has gashes on his head, which tends to back up his story. Who was screaming?
GRACE: Yeah, all we know, Darryl, you`re right. We don`t know everything. We only know Zimmerman`s side because Martin`s dead. What about it, Parks?
DARYL PARKS, ATTORNEY FOR TRAYVON MARTIN`S FAMILY: It`s not right. Let me say this here, Nancy. I`m president of the National Bar association, and we--
GRACE: OK, well, you know how--
PARKS: --have taken the time--
GRACE: --I feel about lawyers, so don`t throw that around like it`s a big thing, OK? Go ahead.
PARKS: It`s a big deal. Let me say this here. The girlfriend who he was talking to made it very clear she overheard the conversation that happened between Trayvon and Mr. Zimmerman, and she heard what happened. It was clear. Mr. Zimmerman engaged Trayvon. And certainly, in this situation, he was the agitator and the vigilante carrying around a .9- millimeter with him.
GRACE: You know, my question is going to be under the law. And I`m going to try you again, Darryl, because I know for a fact you used to be a prosecutor. Do you expect, anticipate any twist under the law where the initial aggressor then turns into the victim because if somebody comes in my house-- let`s just look at it like that-- and I punch him, they don`t have the right to shoot me because they`re still the aggressor.
That is an analogy under the law that I could use in a closing statement in this case. It doesn`t matter that they`re outside of an apartment complex. What matters is who`s the aggressor?
That is the legal technicality on which this is going to hinge, Darryl.
COHEN: Nancy, if it turns out to be that Zimmerman was the aggressor, he had a right to defend himself after he had been punched and hit. So yes, he had a right--
GRACE: With a gun?
COHEN: --at that point to--
GRACE: No, no, no, no!
COHEN: Yes, absolutely--
GRACE: No, no! No, no!
COHEN: --under Florida law, clearly--
GRACE: Everyone, I`m just getting a wire. Zimmerman states if charges go down, he will hand himself in peacefully.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Zimmerman was left to go and shower and sleep in his bed.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back. Bombshell tonight. Does enhanced police video show a blow to the back of Zimmerman`s head?
Back to you, Matt Gutman, ABC News correspondent. How did the video get enhanced, number one? How did this happen?
GUTMAN: We sent it to a company called Forensic Protection--
GRACE: Who is we?
GUTMAN: This is what they do-- ABC News. I did.
GRACE: OK.
GUTMAN: And over the weekend-- and they worked on it. It took them a little bit of time, but they managed to redigitize, enhance and sharpen all of these images. Their process is propriety, so I can`t tell you about it. Also don`t know much about it because it`s propriety.
But the delivered product was rather impressive to the extent that we felt we had to play it up pretty high on "Good Morning America" today because this is by far the best image we`ve seen of George Zimmerman, the only true images we`ve seen of George Zimmerman after the shooting and any recent photo at all.
So it was remarkable not only for what it shows, those gashes, how he looks, clear (ph). He was wearing that red jacket, that gray T-shirt. I did not see any visible signs of blood. I don`t know if you were able to make anything out.
It also shows his face. We did not see any real clear signs of a very badly broken nose or blood on his face. So it was quite illustrative in how much it showed us of what we haven`t seen so far.
GRACE: And when we come back, we`ll take a look at Zimmerman`s T- shirt. Have we finally found the bloody T-shirt? Also tonight, audio specialists join us, saying it absolutely was not Zimmerman screaming for help.
But speaking for Zimmerman tonight, Frank Taaffe, and the cousin of Trayvon Martin will join us and take your calls.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He says he defended himself when the Florida teen attacked him.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My brother was on top (INAUDIBLE) said, You`re going to die tonight. That doesn`t sound like my brother at all.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I saw a man laying on the ground that needed help that was screaming.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They blame the victim.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The sketchy details of what happened that night.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s followed. He was the aggressor.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He says he defended himself.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He claimed the teenager bashed his head and broke his nose.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: With the new analysis of those 911 calls in the Trayvon Martin case--
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls. Straight out to Dustin Weis, reporter with WIOD. Dustin, the very latest from your vantage point-- joining us from Florida.
DUSTIN WEIS, NEWSRADIO 610 WIOD: Nancy, so much of this case right now rides on identifying who it is that can be heard crying out for help in that 911 recording. It was a call made by a neighbor in the Sanford`s Retreat at Twin Lakes neighborhood.
George Zimmerman`s defenders have maintained all along that it`s him crying out as he was punched in the nose and then pummeled by Trayvon Martin. He says he had his head bashed against the sidewalk.
But at least two forensic voice analysts tell ``The Orlando Sentinel`` and CNN they don`t buy it. Voices are sort of like fingerprints, Nancy. By running a biometric analysis of the audio and comparing it with other samples of Zimmerman`s voice, one of these experts finds only a 46 percent match.
He says that in order to say for certain that it`s Zimmerman`s voice, he`d expect somewhere in the neighborhood of a 90 percent or higher match. And this guy knows what he`s talking about, Nancy. He`s the chairman of the American Board of Recorded Evidence.
GRACE: One of those two audio experts, Tom Owen, owner of Owen Forensic Services, is joining me right now. Tom Owen, thank you for being with us. You conducted voice analysis on this 911 call. I`m specifically interested in who is screaming out, Help, help, help me.
TOM OWEN, CONDUCTED VOICE ANALYSIS (via telephone): Thank you, Nancy. Yes, I can answer that question. It`s not George Zimmerman.
GRACE: Now, how do you know that?
OWEN: Two reasons. I spent a considerable amount of time listening to the voices and the screaming, what I refer to as the screaming tape and the George Zimmerman 911 call. I ran the biometric program, as well as doing (ph) critical listening, and I arrived at the conclusion that it`s not Zimmerman`s voice.
GRACE: Now, you state there`s a 40-- what did you say, 46 percent chance, 48 percent chance that it is Zimmerman?
OWEN: No. I didn`t state that at all.
GRACE: OK. How does it go?
OWEN: It goes like this. It`s basically an analysis that tells you what we refer to as a false rejection rate and a false acceptance rate. And then it gives you a color code, black in this case, and a number, OK?
If it was to be positive-- for example, if you compare Zimmerman`s voice against Zimmerman`s voice, it comes up 99 percent. So it recognizes the same voice. You compare the screams against each other, it comes up over 99 percent. If you compare Zimmerman and the scream recording, it comes up 48 percent.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Already noted the handcuffs that were there.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: His case has been blown completely out of the water with this video that`s been released.
JEAN CASAREZ, LEGAL CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION": Let`s also look at the police incident report. Zimmerman was also bleeding from the nose and back of his head.
MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The tragic shooting of Trayvon Martin.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The teenager and the neighborhood watch George Zimmerman --
CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: Questions about Zimmerman`s story. Does the bald guy in the red jacket look like he`s been beaten and bloodied? He claimed the teenager bashed his head and broke his nose.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: What happened in the pursued?
ROBERT ZIMMERMAN, JR., GEORGE ZIMMERMAN`S BROTHER: He`s been diagnosed with posttraumatic stress disorder.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Who was on top?
SYBRINA FULTON, TRAYVON MARTIN`S MOTHER: I believe my son was defending himself.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When the gun went off --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He had a .9 millimeter gun. Trayvon Martin had a bag of Skittles.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My god. He shot -- he shot the person. He said he shot the person.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He heard the screams continuously from the time he stepped out of the front of the house.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There is something going on here with the tape. You know, people can see --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls. Tonight, bombshell, video enhancement of the police surveillance shows several things. According to Matt Gutman, ABC News correspondent, joining us from Sanford, he says you can clearly see the gash on the back of Zimmerman`s head.
I say look at the T-shirt now enhanced. I don`t see any blood. There`s no way that a bloody nose doesn`t run down. Unless he changed clothes in the back of that police car, it didn`t happen. Also tonight, audio specialists say the person screaming, help me, help me, help me, is not Zimmerman. They`ve just explained it to me, it sounded like chicken scratch.
We`re going to go back to them, try to get an understandable explanation for all of us dummies that are not audio analysts.
Another thing, we hear now the dispatch comments between the police, between the EMC. We`ve heard that. We hear on the scene the ambulance for Zimmerman being turned away. Zimmerman does not need an ambulance.
Joining me right now two special guests, Frank Taaffe, friend and neighbor of George Zimmerman. Also, Ronquavis Fulton, Trayvon Martin`s cousin.
Gentlemen, thank you for being with us. First of all to you, Frank Taaffe.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nice to be with you.
GRACE: Could you just describe for me -- because I think a lot is going to hinge on Zimmerman`s injuries. I really do. Somebody on that jury is going to say, I don`t care what the law is about aggressor, self- defense, somebody bangs my head in the sidewalk, I`m going to shoot him. That`s not going to be the law.
Let me assure you, if he`s the aggressor, that does not follow under the law. But this video and his injuries could sway a juror. I`m just telling everybody like it is. So, Frank, describe the injuries for me.
FRANK TAAFFE, FRIEND AND NEIGHBOR OF GEORGE ZIMMERMAN: First, Nancy, thank you for having me back on your show. I wore my favorite tie for you. Three things that were instituted that night by the Sanford Police Department -- care, custody, and control. George Zimmerman was attended to at the scene by the paramedics. That`s why you don`t see a great amount of blood flowing around his head. He was administered first aid at the scene.
And to address the second one, why the second ambulance was not dispatched was that the EMTs first tried to revive Trayvon and he was pronounced dead at the scene. And in Seminole County, you do not transport dead bodies in an ambulance. The first ambulance was on scene, administering first aid to George Zimmerman.
GRACE: Could you explain to me what you have observed of the injuries?
TAAFFE: I believe that this is coming to fruition the fact --
GRACE: Put him up.
TAAFFE: -- that the injuries are consistent with George`s self- defense claim.
GRACE: OK. Now I don`t know a lot, but I know this. When I say, Taaffe, describe the injuries, and you say, uh, I believe that -- coming to fruition --
TAAFFE: Nancy, his head fairly shows a gash --
GRACE: Did you see the injuries?
TAAFFE: Yes, I did. I saw it in the enhanced video.
GRACE: Have you seen his head?
TAAFFE: From the video I was pretty elated --
GRACE: You have not seen it?
TAAFFE: I have not seen him personally. I saw it on the video. And you know what`s right is right.
GRACE: No, Mr. Taaffe.
TAAFFE: I was elated --
GRACE: When I asked you to describe the injuries and you start telling me what you read in "The Orlando Sentinel"" which is a fine paper, I`m sure.
TAAFFE: No, what I saw on the --
GRACE: And what you see on this --
TAAFFE: Yes, it is.
GRACE: On this video, no. You are here representing Zimmerman.
TAAFFE: And then you have clearly shows the injury. It shows it right on the cranium.
GRACE: But you`ve never even seen him.
TAAFFE: Right here.
GRACE: Have you even seen him since this happened?
TAAFFE: No, I haven`t, but I can, like your viewers and like you saw on the video --
GRACE: Yes, and I said I can`t tell if it`s a gash or if it`s dirt or a bruise. I can see it better now thanks to Gutman. I still can`t tell what it is.
TAAFFE: But you know when he`s first being frisked in the -- when he`s first being frisk in the Sally Port on the grainy version, the one officer notates, he looks at the back of the head, And he shares that with the other officer and when he does the pat-down you`ve got to notice that he wipes off some sort of residue.
Also, if there was blood at the scene that needed to be cleared up, because nobody knew exactly if George Zimmerman might have had a blood borne disease. So this is all standard operating procedure. Care, custody and control.
GRACE: I`ll tell you what`s standard is for someone that is injured with a broken nose and a gash to the back of their head is to be treated by an EMT. That is what is standard.
TAAFFE: Nancy, I`ve had my nose punched before and it doesn`t bleed a little bit.
GRACE: Well, I`m sure.
TAAFFE: They clean it up. Look at the boxers in the ring.
GRACE: Mr. Taaffe.
TAAFFE: When they get punched, they clean it up.
GRACE: Mr. Taaffe.
TAAFFE: Yes, ma`am.
GRACE: I understand what you`re doing.
TAAFFE: Thank you.
GRACE: And I would do the same for a friend of mine.
TAAFFE: I appreciate that.
GRACE: But let`s just clear this up.
TAAFFE: But what`s right is right.
GRACE: Have you even seen Zimmerman since this incident, yes? No?
TAAFFE: No, ma`am.
GRACE: OK. Have you even spoken to him, not a voice mail message, have you spoken to him since this incident?
TAAFFE: No, ma`am.
GRACE: All right.
To you, Ronquavis Fulton, you are Trayvon Martin`s cousin.
RONQUAVIS FULTON, TRAYVON MARTIN`S COUSIN: Yes, Nancy. How are you doing?
GRACE: I`m hanging in there and I want to know how his family is doing.
FULTON: Oh, man, it`s been tough going. I mean, a murderer is still out there at-large. You know we have no peace until justice has been served.
GRACE: Ronquavis Fulton, I want to talk to you about Trayvon Martin. Do you know this girl he was talking to on the phone that evening?
FULTON: No, but I met her at the funeral.
GRACE: You did?
FULTON: Yes.
GRACE: Did you have any opportunity to talk to her?
FULTON: No, not personally. Just a meet -- just a formal meeting.
GRACE: Mm-hmm. Because as of last week we were told she had not been interviewed by police. Do you know about that?
FULTON: No, ma`am.
GRACE: If what we have heard is true, that he was on the phone with his girlfriend saying somebody is following me, somebody is following me, should I run, can you -- knowing Trayvon Martin, would he have circled back to confront the guy that was following him?
FULTON: No, I don`t believe so. If you know Trayvon, you know he`s a very well-mannered, soft spoken person. I mean, for him to be aggressive in the situation is totally unbelievable to me.
GRACE: You say the 911 call still is haunting you. Why, Ronquavis?
FULTON: Yes. Because I hear my little cousin crying, screaming, help, help. It still haunts me to this day. I can`t even listen to it.
GRACE: Why are you so sure that that is Trayvon Martin?
FULTON: I know his voice on and off the phone. I know his voice. That`s him.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My take on this is that we don`t see any visible injuries. We don`t see any torn clothes. We don`t see any grass stains. We don`t see any type of that. You know, your eyes can see what is there. The video shows what`s there. We don`t need his brother to tell us what`s there, what we see.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRACY MARTIN, TRAYVON MARTIN`S FATHER: In all my years of knowing Trayvon, I`ve never known Trayvon to get into a confrontation, a fight of any sort with anybody.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: George Zimmerman, he says he defended himself when the Florida teen attacked him.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My brother said someone got shot behind our house.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: But the investigator said that he was not convinced by Zimmerman`s story.
MARTIN: My son was carried away in a body bag.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: Do you know who was shot?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police, I just heard a shot right behind my house.
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GRACE: Welcome back. We are taking your calls. Out to Bobbie in Virginia. Hi, Bobbie. What`s your question?
BOBBIE, CALLER FROM VIRGINIA: Hi, Nancy. I love you. I just want to know why he`s not arrested yet. I mean this --
GRACE: All right. Unleash the lawyers, Daryl Parks, Sue Moss, Alex Sanchez, Darryl Cohen. All right. Sanchez, why has he not been arrested? Typically when there`s a dead body the police take you into custody. If you want to make a self-defense claim, that`s great but you do that to a jury.
ALEX SANCHEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: He hasn`t been arrested because there`s a significant amount of questions concerning his culpability in this particular case. I`m not clear at all whether or not he was the aggressor in this particular matter. And the other day when we showed that video, everybody was jumping up in arms, this was the smoking gun, he didn`t have an injury.
There`s going to be a lot of backpedaling because that tape shows to me there were injuries in this case and that supports the police, it supports the medical evidence, and it supports what Zimmerman has to say, and that`s why he has not been arrested up to this point.
GRACE: Darryl Cohen?
DARRYL COHEN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I would not arrest him. Right now the authorities are doing exactly what they should do, meticulously going through the evidence and the lack of evidence making a decision whether they should or should not make an arrest. We should not have --
GRACE: Darryl Cohen -- put him up.
COHEN: Nancy, we shouldn`t have had vigilante justice.
GRACE: Another question.
COHEN: That`s what we`ve got.
GRACE: Darryl Cohen. Darryl, who killed you and skinned you and is wearing your skin because up until today you would have said dead body, make an arrest, tell it to a jury. That`s what you would have said but something everything is bass-ackwards on this case.
COHEN: No, absolutely not. The evidence does not show at this point to convince the state attorney`s office there should be an arrest. I`m not saying there won`t be an arrest. I`m not saying there will not be a prosecution. I`m saying at this point --
GRACE: Well, what do you want? What evidence is there? There`s a dead body of an unarmed 17-year-old. What`s the evidence you want? Because you can`t get a blow from a 17-year-old and then shoot them dead with a .9 millimeter. That`s not the way self-defense works.
COHEN: Absolutely. If you think you`re in danger, that you`re screaming help me, help me, you`ve had your head bashed, you`ve had your nose broken, absolutely you can make that call. It`s a call that you have to make in a split nanosecond. You don`t have time to reflect or think about it.
GRACE: Really?
COHEN: I just think that --
GRACE: And isn`t it true, Darryl Cohen, that intent to kill can be formed in that split second? Isn`t that --
COHEN: It can absolutely but not in this instance based on the facts as we now know them or as we know them at this moment.
GRACE: Why? You know what you`re doing, Darryl, and I know what you`re doing, you`re having your cake and you`re eating it, too. That`s all right because this is going to come to fruition. As Tappy says. All right. Moss, hit it.
SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY & CHILD ADVOCATE: It`s a neighborhood watch. If you only use your eyes nobody dies. But that`s not what this guy did. He stalked this kid. He got out of his car. He went looking for this kid. And when you have a .9 millimeter and you`re stalking a kid, bad things happen.
GRACE: To Dr. Bill -- oh, I`ve got another attorney with me, the attorney for Trayvon Martin`s family. Daryl Parks. I`m sure that you have a different spin on why there has not been an arrest?
DARYL PARKS, TRAYVON FAMILY ATTORNEY: Let me tell you, It`s part of the reason why everybody is totally outraged by this case.
Nancy, there`s no way that Zimmerman gets away with this. Think about the facts that we have in this case. We have phone records from 7:12 to 7:16 that he`s on the phone and the girlfriend hears what happened. We have other witnesses who were on the phone with the 911 operator. The evidence is very clear in this case uncontradicted. We have that evidence plus the dead body him shooting Trayvon. It`s open and shut.
GRACE: Hey, Daryl --
PARKS: I don`t know why it`s taking so long.
GRACE: Daryl Park, that leads me to another question. What about this girl that he`s talking to on the phone? Have police finally interviewed her?
PARKS: Nancy, I could tell you it`s happening the early part of this week.
GRACE: Well -- put him back up. It is the early part of this week. It`s Monday night. Now what happened -- five weeks since this happened and she has not been interviewed by police? Could you tell me why? Is it police or is it her? Why hasn`t she been interviewed?
PARKS: Well, part of the problem is she`s a minor so it`s a very delicate situation.
GRACE: So? What`s delicate?
PARKS: They`re trying to protect --
GRACE: Bring the parents in.
PARKS: Well, one, she`s been traumatized. Number two, they`re trying to work out the process. Obviously the prosecutors and their investigators have to travel to South Florida to do it. So those things are happening as we speak.
GRACE: I`m sorry. I`m sorry. I got New York screaming in my ear. Who has to work out what to get a witness statement? Last I looked you get in the car, you drive over to the house, you -- hello, I`m the district attorney. I want to talk to your daughter about this case. And you sit down and you go, what did you hear on the phone that night?
Now explain to me why that is so complicated, Daryl Parks?
PARKS: Well, number one, this young lady was very traumatized from this event. She in fact had to go to the hospital immediately after his death because it was such a traumatic event for her. So I mean, you have to work through those issues and so that she could give the best possible testimony.
I believe it`s going to happen the first part of this week and will be done.
GRACE: Well, something stinks to me, and I don`t know, I`m not getting a clear answer from you about who -- about what the issue is. But I know this much and I`m going to go out right now to Lisa Lockwood, former police detective and author.
Lisa, on every murder or shooting case I`ve ever been on, I go to every single witness whether they`re laying in a hospital bed or not, because the more time that passes --
LISA LOCKWOOD, FORMER POLICE DET. AUTHOR OF "UNDERCOVER ANGEL": Absolutely.
GRACE: -- the more that witness can get cross-examined on trial. Now when they put this girl up on the stand if there is a trial, they`re going to tear her to shreds saying, why wouldn`t you talk to police? Why did it take six weeks for you to finally speak to police? Whether it`s true or not, they could still cross-examine her like that. So every minute that passes --
LOCKWOOD: That`s right.
GRACE: -- it`s worse for her credibility.
LOCKWOOD: And you are exactly right. She should have been in the station that evening. She should have been in the station that evening. State`s attorney should have been at that police department instead of making a decision on the phone in such a quick manner. That officer wasn`t able to collect all the information. Everybody wasn`t interviewed. Pictures weren`t taken on the scene of all of this blood.
There are so many pieces of the puzzle that I believe this was incredibly rushed. He was in custody. He should have remained in custody until the investigation was complete.
GRACE: Joining me is Deborah Roberts, Florida News Network.
Deborah, you are joining me from there in Florida. What`s happening now?
DEBORAH ROBERTS, NEWS ANCHOR, FLORIDA NEWS NETWORK: Well, right now everyone is waiting to see what the grand jury is going to when they convene and get the facts of the case on April 10th. They`re hoping the Jacksonville state attorney who`s been assigned to this case might decide something sooner but she`s given no public timetable as to when she`s going to make the decision.
In the meantime, the mood remains very tense. Racial lines have been drawn. There`s a lot of accusations on both sides. And I think there`s just a sense of --
GRACE: You know, I appreciate that, Deborah, but really all I care about is the evidence, the hard evidence.
To Dr. Bill Lloyd, very quickly, what do you make of this injury on this enhanced video, Bill?
DR. BILL LLOYD, BOARD CERTIFIED SURGEON AND PATHOLOGIST: Nancy, once again, the story has changed. Friday he didn`t have injuries. Today he has hemorrhage, a laceration, head trauma, and who knows what else, because they didn`t get him to the hospital.
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GRACE: Straight back out to Dr. Bill Lloyd. Dr. Lloyd, what did you just say?
LLOYD: Nancy, what I said is the story continues to change. And now the pendulum of information has changed from just Friday, where we said, the video shows no injury, and now the enhanced video shows what appears to be lacerations, that red swelling. We call that ecomosis or hematoma, blood underneath the skin, consistent with the version of an assault that took place on the ground before the firing.
GRACE: So you believe based on what we`re seeing tonight that there`s a gash or a wound that is consistent with Zimmerman`s story?
LLOYD: Here`s my story, Nancy. You can bet that Zimmerman`s attorney has a family album full of photographs of close-up, beautiful, crisp photographs showing every inch of George Zimmerman`s head including that broken nose.
GRACE: To Dr. Ramani Durvasula, clinical psychologist joining us out of L.A. I don`t want what everybody`s screaming for or against. I want the right thing. Do you think mob mentality is taking over this case?
RAMANI DURVASULA, PH.D., CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Mob mentality is taking over because people are frustrated. The legal system moves very slowly. Due process takes a long time. And it seems like a lot of mistakes feel like they`re being made so people are frustrated. There`s a bigger conversation here around race and profiling and that`s the backstory, and people want answers.
So, yes, that`s going to fuel a mob mentality, and then we`re going to have a trial by media. That`s what -- that`s the risk here.
GRACE: Dr. Ramani Durvasula, joining us out of L.A.
Let`s stop and remember Army Sergeant Mark Palmateer, 38, Poughkeepsie, New York, killed Afghanistan. Bronze Star, Purple Heart, Combat Action. Remembered for loyalty and bringing a smile to everyone. Nickname, Uncle Mark. A scholarship fund named after him. Leaves behind father, Charles, stepmother Jane, brothers, Charles, Gary, Christopher, Michael. Sisters, Kathy, Sue, Cindy, Margie. Daughter, Stephanie.
Mark Palmateer, American hero.
Thanks to our guests but especially to you.
Today marks World Autism Awareness Day. The CDC reports 1 in 88 children has autism. Go to Facebook and like World Autism Awareness Day. I did it on my page.
For more, go to autismspeaks.org.
And for more on Trayvon Martin`s case, watch "Dr. Drew." He`s coming up next.
Everyone, I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern, and until then, good night, friend.
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