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Nancy Grace
Baby Ava`s Mom Fights Dad`s Abuse Claim; 7-year-old Autistic Boy Abducted by Father
Aired April 05, 2012 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, live from America`s heartland. A beautiful 7-year-old boy we believe to be autistic in extreme danger. Tonight, the boy last seen near his rural Minnesota home.
Bombshell tonight. Police frantically searching, hunting shacks and outlying properties, issuing a state-wide lookout, reports the alleged kidnapper says he likes, quote, "adrenaline rushes" and threatens to, quote, "hurt" the 7-year-old boy. Tonight, where is 7-year-old Wyatt?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police are desperately searching for a 7-year-old boy allegedly abducted by his own father.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The boy is a special needs child. He is autistic. The parents have been locked in a custody battle.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: James Nordrum, Jr., was ordered to hand the boy over to authorities after losing sole custody.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was accused of planting drugs and a gun in the car of his ex-wife.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Even more disturbing are alleged threats previously made by James Nordrum he would harm little Wyatt if he lost custody.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The father has a history of mental health issues, suffers from depression.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Aerial and ground searches have failed to turn up any new leads.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police went to the home. They looked for the little boy, found nothing except the clothing that was gone.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No traces of cell phone or credit card activity.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Whatever he`s going through in this case is possibly fairly traumatic.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Bombshell tonight, live, America`s heartland, a beautiful 7-year- old boy we believe to be autistic in extreme danger, last seen near his rural Minnesota home. Where is 7-year-old Wyatt?
We`re going to go straight to that story, but first, right now, last night, we brought you the story of baby Ava, just reunited with her mother. This after she was kidnapped and taken across the U.S. border to Mexico with her bio dad.
Mommy goes home to find out that bio dad has totally cleaned out his home. He and his new wife have absconded with the little girl. Then last night this bombshell allegation by the grandma. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MELINDA BARROS, PATERNAL GRANDMOTHER (via telephone): My granddaughter does not need to be in that...
GRACE: All right, Ms. Barros, let me get this straight. Are you saying that baby Ava has been the victim of child molestation while in the custody of her mother?
BARROS: Yes, ma`am, I am.
GRACE: Have you taken her to a doctor?
BARROS: Yes, we have.
GRACE: What do the doctors say?
BARROS: My son has not abused her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out now to special guest joining us, the mother of baby Ava. You see her there being reunited with her child. Athena Manuma is with us. Ma`am, thank you for being with us.
Last night on national television, baby Ava`s paternal grandmother makes a bombshell claim that your daughter, 2-year-old Ava Enlow, has been molested while in your care. Response?
ATHENA MANUMA, AVA`S MOTHER: It`s a complete false accusation. There is no claims (ph) of abuse whatsoever in our home.
GRACE: Explain to me what is happening? It`s my understanding you`re supposed to pick Ava up at a coffee shop. It`s a prearranged pickup after visitation with bio dad. You show up, there`s no baby Ava, there`s no bio dad. You go to his house, his house has been moved out, essentially, furniture, belongings gone.
And for the longest period of time, nobody could find the bio dad. No one could find baby Ava. But last night, your mother-in-law told me that the father had not kidnapped the baby. So my question to you, Ms. Manuma, is, did you know where baby Ava was all this time?
MANUMA: No. Not at all. No. And on the last show when you had us (ph) on there, she had said that she didn`t know where he was and that he was trying not to be found (INAUDIBLE) so -- and I had no idea where she was.
GRACE: You know what, Ms. Manuma? You`re absolutely right. That is exactly what the bio grandma told us. And I`m now starting to wonder if this was not a big plot or a big plan amongst his entire family to take the baby across state lines.
But what`s concerning me now -- out to you, Dave Mack, morning talk show host, WAAX -- Dave Mack, the mother, the biological mother, has baby Ava in her care tonight. Now, last night, the grandma comes on national TV and makes claims baby Ava is the victim of child molestation in that home.
Help me out, Dave. Who in their right mind would send their child back into a home where child molestation is suspected?
DAVE MACK, TALK SHOW HOST, WAAX: You know, Nancy, this -- last night, listening to the bio grandma, it drove me crazy in that I watched that first interview that you did with them both, and she made a lot of accusations about a lot of different issues with work and everything else.
It`s like she`s just throwing accusations against a wall. But not all of them, not all the way, where she thinks something can stick and they can somehow gain control of baby Ava. The only person who seems to actually care about baby Ava right now is her mother, thank God.
GRACE: I agree with you, Mr. Mack. OK, take a listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARROS: She is not safe. I`ve tried saying that. I said that to CPS. My son has said it to CPS. Nobody will step in and take over. They say, It`s not our jurisdiction, we`re not going to do this.
How else are we supposed to do this? The judicial system is not working for us. Nobody is listening to what we`re saying. There are some serious issues going on...
GRACE: Well, maybe that`s because you`re not giving any answers, Ms. Barros. I mean, no offense, I want the baby safe, all right? But you`re not giving me answers. When you say the baby`s not safe, I say why, and you won`t tell me why so that you`re losing all your credibility.
BARROS: Oh!
GRACE: Yes!
BARROS: OK, let`s try incest.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: With me right now, not only Ava`s birth mother, who now has the baby with her amidst claims from the bio dad`s side the child is being sexually abused in the mom`s home -- with me right now is the mother and her lawyer, Ronee Korbin Steiner.
Ronee, thank you for being with us. Those were very disturbing accusations made last night, but we`ve got to consider the source. This is the grandmother that told me she knew nothing about the whereabouts of this baby. Her son took the baby across the U.S. border -- every mother`s worst nightmare to have their baby kidnapped and taken out of the country.
What do you make of these claims of sex abuse, Ronee, as to your client?
RONEE KORBIN STEINER, ATTORNEY FOR ATHENA MANUMA: They are absolutely ridiculous. And let me make very clear, my client is an amazing mother. And by all accounts, people support that. Father has previously made these allegations or similar allegations, which were aired out in a courtroom, a family court courtroom. And regardless of those allegations, the judge dismissed them and found that joint custody was appropriate at that time.
Father or his mother, we don`t know for sure, reported these claims to CPS, Child Protective Services, back at that time, and they were found unsubstantiated. And you know what they did this time? On March 30th, suddenly, after he`s found, grandmother makes a report to police and again called CPS only to put grandfather under the same false scrutiny. It is disgusting!
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers. Joining us tonight, Georgia Goslee (ph), Renee Rockwell, Peter Odom. First of all, to you, Georgia Goslee. These claims of sex abuse on a 2-year-old baby girl were made on national TV. Now, whether I agree with the bio mom or not -- because as of tonight, the only one that is accused of wrongdoing is the father who absconded with the baby and took her across the border and hid out in Mexico.
So believe me, you know, when you don`t know a horse, look at the track record. That`s what we`ve got to say about Brent Anderson. But when claims of sex abuse on a 2-year-old baby girl, DFACS or Child Protective Services must do an investigation. Do you agree, Georgia?
GEORGIA GOSLEE, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR (via telephone): I completely agree, Nancy. And this is another bad situation gone bad. It is just an astonishing situation of another child potentially, or at least alleged to be molested, and it`s just amazing. There needs to be a full investigation because the dad is suspicious. If you look at his history, then we`re going to have to look into it.
GRACE: Well, I agree with you, and Athena Manuma, the mom, is here with us. Are you telling me, Athena, that that CPS has already looked into such allegations?
MANUMA: Yes. In 2009, they looked into the allegations, and the allegations were found unsubstantiated. There is no proof.
GRACE: 2009 -- Ava Enlow is only 2 years old. It`s 2012. So how could the allegations be looked into in 2009? Could you explain that for me, Ronee Steiner?
STEINER: ... 3 this month, actually, Nancy, so it was when she was fairly young that the first set of allegations were made against my client relative to Eva.
GRACE: OK. So this is not a new thing. You know what? I`m sensing a revolving door, Renee Rockwell, where Dad makes allegations, we go to court, then he makes new allegations. But this is what I know, Renee. I know that when the baby comes home from visits with Daddy, according to Mommy, there are cuts, there are bruises, there are even burns on her fingertips.
So I think Daddy is right where he needs to be tonight and that is behind bars, Rockwell.
RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, of course. But whenever you have any kind of suspicion, we don`t want to put any kind of brakes on people making complaints. Now, I`m wondering, did the mother make complaints when a child returns from the visitation with burn marks on her?
GRACE: OK, let`s find out. What about it? To you. You`re the mom, Athena Manuma. Did you complain when you saw alleged cuts, bruises and burns on baby Ava?
MANUMA: I had notified CPS, yes.
GRACE: OK, to you, Peter Odom. What`s your defense -- what`s your defense of Daddy taking this baby across the border?
PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, the common defense in these case where is a child is taken away from a custodial parent is that the child is being taken from a situation of abuse. Now, we don`t know what the dad`s going to say about why he did it. But I mean, that is the most common defense that you see. Now we`re hearing...
GRACE: Do I care?
ODOM: ... about allegations...
GRACE: Put him up!
ODOM: ... that there might be abuse out there.
GRACE: Do I care why the dad went on the run? I mean, come on! He goes to Mexico and doesn`t tell anybody?
Back to you, Dave Mack, WAAX. What`s the status of the dad behind bars now? And where do we go with allegations the mom is somehow responsible for child abuse in the home?
MACK: Well, you know, they`re making that allegation to justify him leaving the country with the baby. Now, you got to remember, Nancy, they have shared custody here. The fighting over this child has gone on -- it seems like it has nothing to do with baby Ava and everything to do with a past relationship that really went south, and Brent Anderson just can`t let it go.
He plotted and planned to get the baby out of the country, away from Mom, and just to hurt the mother, not necessarily to help baby Ava because, again, you mentioned it before, the only signs of any abuse came when she was with her dad. All we have now is we got Brent Anderson behind bars for what he has done.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: At this hour, a 7-year-old Minnesota boy is in extreme danger.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: James Nordrum was supposed to hand over his son to authorities, but neither have been seen or heard from.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They looked for the little boy. They looked for his dad. And they found nothing, except the clothing that was gone.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Cops have issued an arrest warrant for the man ho they believe snatched little Wyatt Nordrum.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Aerial and ground searches have failed to turn up any new leads as police issue a statewide crime alert.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When they didn`t show up for a court hearing, authorities went to the house and looked for them. And that is the last time that they were seen.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Threats that he will harm the little boy makes the search priority number one for authorities.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police say James Nordrum has been known to have mental health issues and threatened to harm his son if he ever lost custody.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls right now. Right now, a beautiful 7- year-old little boy we believe may be autistic, in extreme danger, Minnesota police searching outlying areas. It`s a rural area. They are hunting through hunting shacks, outlying properties. A full area of farmland is being searched. Take a look at this map, Brookston, Minnesota. That`s where it`s all going down right now.
The reported kidnapper states he likes, quote, "adrenaline rushes" and will, quote, "hurt" the boy if need be. Wyatt Nordrum in extreme danger tonight. And imagine how difficult this is for a 7-year-old child, much less a 7-year-old child that may be autistic, away from home, away from Mommy, on the run. Where is 7-year-old Wyatt?
We are taking your calls in the search for baby Wyatt. First, to Daphne Adato with WCCO, joining us out of Minneapolis. Daphne, thank you for being with us. What can you tell me about the search that`s going on right now for baby Wyatt?
DAPHNE ADATO, WCCO RADIO (via telephone): Nancy, we`re on day nine now. The search now includes aerial searches with the DNR from the area where they disappeared. Unfortunately, however, there just aren`t enough tips as to where this father and son have gone to.
GRACE: Department of Natural Resources now in on the search.
To Michael Board, WOAI. Michael, obviously, DNR is on the search, Department of Natural Resources, because there`s so much farmland and wilderness land to search. Help me out, Michael. Explain to me what`s being done in the search right now. I know hunting shacks are being searched. I know that the border between the U.S. and Canada is being searched.
What about it, Michael Board?
MICHAEL BOARD, WOAI: Well, the police are off to a good start. They`re doing the right things in this case. They`re trying to track his cell phone and also his credit card in this case. So far, we`ve not heard word back yet if either of those have turned up a ping. But those are both very good places to start. You know, you have to use money sometime. You have to call somebody out there.
But Nancy, what`s really troubling about this -- and you mentioned this quickly in the opening -- is that this guy is -- James Nordrum is an adrenaline junkie and he`s got a history of both abuse, assault and methamphetamine possession.
GRACE: With me right now, joining me out of Duluth, Minnesota, is Lieutenant Jason Lukovsky with the St. Louis sheriff`s office. Lieutenant, thank you for being with us. What are your people doing in the search for Wyatt?
LT. JASON LUKOVSKY, ST. LOUIS COUNTY SHERIFF`S DEPT. (via telephone): Thank you, Nancy. Currently, right now, we`re still monitoring, as you explained, the financial avenues and the cell phones in an attempt to try and get a location as far as where James, Jr., and Wyatt may be. Those investigative measures are, in fact, coming up negative. So right now, we`re appealing to the general public to keep their eyes open and help us in locating them.
GRACE: Very disturbing. Every family car gone, no use of a credit card or ATMs. Where is Wyatt Nordrum?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Right now, this 7-year-old little boy, whom we believe to be autistic, is missing. It`s been days now. We know that every family car is accounted for, no use of credit cards or ATMs. Does it spell disaster for this little 7-year-old boy, a child, as we said, we believe to be autistic?
I want to go out to a special guest joining us. It is Randy Wilde, the maternal grandfather of Wyatt Nordrum. Mr. Wilde, thank you so much for being with us.
I`m very, very concerned because the alleged kidnapper has had a history with methamphetamine. We have been subject to reports that he is bipolar and goes off his medications. We know that he had a scuffle with police in the past. Just -- it`s all stacking up against the little boy.
Mr. Wilde, what can you tell us? What are police telling you at this hour?
RANDY WILDE, MATERNAL GRANDFATHER (via telephone): We know the police are doing everything they can. Like the sheriff said earlier, there`s a lot of dead ends they`re coming up against. And we`re just appealing to the public that if somebody sees them, or if Jim will just take him to a hospital or take him to a store or somewhere, and then just leave him there, and he can go and just -- we just want the little boy back home safely, that`s all.
GRACE: Amy Hill is with us. She is Wyatt`s cousin. He`s a spokesperson for James Nordrum, Jr.`s, family. Amy, thank you for being with us. Weigh in. Let`s hear it from your side.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JAMES NORDRUM, JR., FATHER: I need to give you back to Mom.
WYATT NORDRUM, 7 YEARS OLD: I don`t want to go!
JAMES NORDRUM: I`m sorry. Hey, hey, hey, hey. I`m sorry. I`m sorry, buddy. I don`t want to let you go. I -- I did everything I could.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMY HILL, COUSIN, SPOKESPERSON FOR SUSPECT`S FAMILY (via telephone): It`s a video of right before he left, and my cousin telling him, trying to prepare him that he was going to have to go with his mother to a different country. And this upset him very, very, very...
GRACE: Ms. Hill, Ms. Hill, I understand that, but I also know that James Nordrum has apparently planted drugs and guns in the mother`s car before. So why I should I believe a video he created of the little boy not wanting to go with his mom? Why should I believe that?
HILL: They`re making false allegations against this father that had full custody of his son for very many months. He did not snatch his son, and he did not make any comments that he would ever hurt his son. This is getting out of hand.
GRACE: Well, could you just address the police report that says he planted guns and drugs in the mother`s car to get her arrested?
HILL: And where did the police find this information? Did they get the information from the mother, the one that wants them to think this, the one that wants...
GRACE: Actually -- actually, it was his father`s gun that was planted in the mother`s car.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police are desperately searching for a 7-year-old boy allegedly abducted by his own father.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The boy is a special needs child. He is autistic. The parents have been locked in a custody battle.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: James Nordrum, Jr., was ordered to hand the boy over to authorities after losing sole custody.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was accused of planting drugs and a gun in the car of his ex-wife.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Even more disturbing are alleged threats previously made by James Nordrum he would harm little Wyatt if he lost custody.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The father has a history of mental health issues, suffers from depression.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Aerial and ground searches have failed to turn up any new leads.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police went to the home. They looked for the little boy, found nothing except the clothing that was gone.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No traces of cell phone or credit card activity.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Whatever he is going trough in this case is possibly fairly traumatic.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Authorities have stated that because of the father`s connection to mental health issues that there is a chance this boy might be harmed. They also say that the father has said at times that he would harm his son if he wasn`t able to be with him. The family of James Nordrum disputes that strongly, says the father would never do anything to hurt his son and loves him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Right now, this little 7-year-old boy is allegedly in extreme danger. Police have a statewide lookout for this child. Take a look at Wyatt. He`s only 7 years old, and we believe he may be autistic. The alleged kidnapper stating that he likes, quote, "adrenaline rushes" and would, quote, "hurt the boy" if he does not have custody.
Most disturbingly, at this hour, all family cars have been accounted for. So where is the child? Not only that, no activity on credit cards or ATM. Are the two still alive?
Speaking on behalf of the alleged kidnapper is Amy Hill. Ms. Hill, thank you for being with us. Maybe you can clear up a lot of this. It`s our report, based on police reports, that the father in this case, James Nordrum, actually planted a gun and drugs in his wife`s car. Go ahead.
HILL: Allegedly?
GRACE: And -- yes, allegedly, and that he told police that he was the one that tipped them off. He`s the one that made the anonymous phone call telling police to look in her car.
HILL: If you look -- the police aren`t showing that there was multiple phone calls made because they -- they -- there was multiple phone calls because the family was aware that she regularly went over the border with these items. Eventually, she would be caught. Eventually, she would be caught.
We want Wyatt to be safe. He is not in any danger with...
GRACE: If you could just address that question?
HILL: Wyatt is not in any danger with his dad. He`s not in extreme danger. Nobody should approach him as if he`s a monster that`s going to hurt his son. He`s a loving father. And this is getting all -- this is getting totally distorted, and I don`t like how you guys are twisting our words around.
GRACE: OK, well -- OK, if you can just take one question at a time? Because if your words are getting twisted, let`s untwist them. Let`s hear the truth. I didn`t say -- I didn`t come to the conclusion on my own that the 7-year-old boy is in extreme danger. The police have said that. So in your mind, are the police wrong?
HILL: Yes, they have -- I actually did a -- a -- as soon as I saw the news on the -- in the morning, I actually called my family and said that we should get this sorted out because wherever they -- it was false, irresponsible reporting that led people to believe that he would be any harm to Wyatt. He is one of the most loving fathers I know.
GRACE: Well...
HILL: And they don`t show any quotes of where they even got that information. They have no -- they haven`t...
GRACE: Well, let me go straight to the police, who are joining us tonight, Lieutenant Jason Lukovsky with the St. Louis County sheriff`s office. It`s my understanding that, first of all, the father has a history, number one, in the `90s, the late `90s, with methamphetamines, number two, with refusing to take a breathalyzer test with a DUI charge, and number three, admitting that he planted a gun and drugs in the mother`s car.
Now he`s gone with the son, the 7-year-old autistic son. I think I understand why police believe the child is in extreme danger. Lieutenant, what say you?
LUKOVSKY: Well, obviously, we can`t ignore past circumstances. I do sympathize with Ms. Hill and the Nordrum, Jr., family and in some senses agree. There`s no doubt in our minds that he is a loving father.
The information that Ms. Hill is talking about as far as potential threats involving Wyatt have not been made directly to the St. Louis County sheriff`s office. They are coming from certain areas within the criminal justice system. And that`s where that information has been brought forward.
GRACE: So wait. Wa-wait. I don`t what that means. So you`re saying within certain areas of the criminal justice system? This is what I know tonight. Our reports are that the father says if he can`t have custody of the child, the boy, he will, quote, "hurt the boy." Now he`s gone with the boy. His car is accounted for, no activity on ATM or credit cards. Nobody knows where he is or where the boy is.
That`s a problem, Lieutenant. I agree with you.
LUKOVSKY: Absolutely. And it`s a source of concern with us. Bottom line, we cannot dismiss those comments that were made. Unfortunately, we have no location. It is a major concern. And now that we are into the ninth day without James, Jr., reaching out to anyone, it is a source of concern because bottom line, the longer this draws on, we don`t know what`s going to happen.
GRACE: The more likely is it`s going sideways, Lieutenant, the longer it drags out. I mean, come on, to be gone now almost 10 days, no credit card, no ATM use, you don`t have the family car? That`s a problem. That`s a big problem.
And Lieutenant, you`re referring to statements the bio dad has made in the past. What are the statements regarding his son?
LUKOVSKY: Statements that have been made known to us are, in fact, that, If I can`t see Wyatt again, no one else will, those types of statements.
So again, law enforcement cannot dismiss those. Whether they`re valid or not, we need to prepare ourselves to locate Wyatt and James, Jr., as quickly as possible to ensure that the safety of both of them is paramount.
GRACE: To Amy Hill. This is the bio dad`s cousin. Amy, I want to thank you again for being with us. But you`ve got to understand, if James Nordrum has made statements that if he can`t have the boy, nobody will -- you don`t see that as a problem?
HILL: I don`t think he ever said that. And you know, I think...
GRACE: OK.
HILL: ... words are getting twisted around here. I don`t see how that implicates any physical harm at all. That`s just...
GRACE: OK. Now, it`s my understanding that you believe he`s been discriminated against because he`s the father.
HILL: Yes. It seems that...
GRACE: Why?
HILL: ... females are looked upon as the more fit parent, and in this case, neither of them are perfect. Neither of them are the golden angel here in this, but I do think...
GRACE: Well...
HILL: ... that things...
GRACE: I don`t know anything about any golden angel, Ms. Hill, but I know that James Nordrum, Jr., has a lengthy criminal record and the mother does not. I`ve got his record...
(CROSSTALK)
HILL: She had alcoholism. She served inpatient -- there`s lots of things that nobody...
GRACE: Ma`am, that`s not a criminal history. That`s a lot different. Going to treatment for alcohol is a lot different from fleeing a police, obstruction to an officer and methamphetamine.
HILL: Ma`am...
GRACE: That`s...
HILL: Excuse me, ma`am...
GRACE: OK, to Bethany Marshall. Help me out, Bethany.
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: Amy Hill, I would really like you to Google "parental alienation syndrome" because in parental alienation syndrome, the alienating parent makes threats against the child to gain control over the other parent, blocks access to the other parent, makes false accusations, and most importantly in this case, subjects the child to what we call loyalty tests, meaning the alienating parent inculcates fear in the child and makes the child feel terrified to show any affection towards the other parent.
GRACE: Tonight, an all-points bulletin lookout for this 7-year-old autistic boy, believed to be with his father, now on the run. A lot of crazy talk tonight, but this is what I know. This boy is in danger.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: At this hour, a 7-year-old Minnesota boy is in extreme danger.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: James Nordrum was supposed to hand over his son to authorities. But neither have been seen or heard from.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They looked for the little boy, they looked for his dad, and they found nothing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: A 7-year-old autistic boy now not heard from nearly 10 straight days, his mother, his entire family frantic. The alleged kidnapper says if he can`t have the boy, no one will. As of tonight, the alleged kidnapper`s car is accounted for, no activity on ATM, no activity on credit card. Does this mean the worst? The tipline in the search for little Wyatt, 800-222-8477.
With me, representing the police, Lieutenant Jason Lukovsky, and with us representing the bio dad, the alleged kidnapper, is Amy Hill.
Ms. Hill, has anyone on your side of the family heard from the dad, James Nordrum?
HILL: No, we have not heard anything. We did get a text message from Wyatt`s phone.
GRACE: And what did it say?
HILL: It said, Hello there. How is it going there? We`re not sure if...
GRACE: OK.
HILL: ... police took this phone and they`re trying to play games, or if Wyatt actually has it.
GRACE: OK, question. When did you receive the text?
HILL: Two days ago.
GRACE: Two days ago. To Lieutenant Jason Lukovsky of St. Louis County sheriff`s office. I doubt pretty seriously that you guys have the phone and you`re playing tricks, but under the Constitution, that is actually allowed.
So what do you make of this text message and the family concerns that you`re playing a trick on them?
LUKOVSKY: Well, I can certainly say first and foremost that we are not playing a trick on the family. We also have received information as a result of this text coming in, and we`re currently looking to determine whether or not Nordrum, Jr., or Wyatt is in possession of the phone to further the investigation and ultimately locate them.
The open lines of communication on both sides of the family is imperative to us. Both families are...
GRACE: Did you know about the text?
LUKOVSKY: Yes, we were aware of the text, and it is something that we are investigating right now.
GRACE: OK. Are you tracking the text? Lieutenant, are you tracking the text?
LUKOVSKY: We are trying to track it, yes.
GRACE: OK, to Woody Tripp, former police commander. How difficult is it to track a text? It`s basically like a ping off of a cell phone. Can`t that be done within a couple of hours, within 72 hours?
WOODROW TRIPP, FORMER POLICE COMMANDER: A lot of this has to do, Nancy, with whether the phone is actually on or not. Doesn`t have to be anyone talking on it, but it certainly needs to be on in order to do that. There are some other things that you can do there...
GRACE: Well, what about the text? Whether the phone is on or off now, can`t that text be pinged?
TRIPP: Well, not so much pinged. There can be phone records obtained to see if, in fact, the phone was used and if there was a text message was sent type thing. Possibly, the cell phone tower could be located. But again, if that phone is only turned on, the message is sent and then it`s turned off, it`s going to become very difficult to track it.
GRACE: To Stacey Newman, our producer on the story. Stacey, what more are you learning about the case?
STACEY NEWMAN, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, Nancy...
GRACE: And what -- what happened in that instance where the mother -- the police got a tip to search her car and they found this huge amount of marijuana, they found marijuana cookies, I think brownies, and a gun that ends up belonging to the father`s father in her car?
NEWMAN: Well, Nancy, she says that this was basically a situation to discredit her in the custody issue she had over Wyatt. They found a large bag of marijuana. They found drug-laced cookies and a gun. And of course, every time the cops were called with a tip to search her car, they always found exactly what the tipster said would be in her car.
GRACE: And Ms. Hill, you`re saying that multiple callers reported that she had this in her car. But yet the boy`s father is one of those callers, is he not?
HILL: Nobody`s talking about the mother talking Wyatt to Canada last year and having the Hague treaty against her and then Amber Alert. Nothing -- nothing of this has been mentioned. I`m also fully aware of the parental alienation syndrome because that`s what Candace (ph) was charged with one year ago.
GRACE: OK, I`m going to take that as a yes, that the father did call in the tips to police about all the dope and the gun that belongs to his father in the mother`s car.
OK, let me go to you, Daphne Adato, WCCO. What can you tell me about allegations against the mom one year ago?
ADATO: The reason that she lost custody last fall -- because this is ongoing custody battle. She lost custody last fall because she wasn`t taking the boy to school. He attends a special needs school. He`s described as a high-functioning autistic.
GRACE: So she wasn`t taking him to school. OK, you know, Marc Klaas, president, founder, Klaas Kids Foundation, all this back and forth between the mom and dad, I really don`t care. I couldn`t care less. What I care about is where the boy is.
So what do we do now, Marc?
MARC KLAAS, KLAAS KIDS FOUNDATION: Well, I think this is a prime example of where CPS needs to step in and do a very real assessment and find out if anybody really is taking care of this young boy, and if not, find a better situation for him.
GRACE: Well, you know, I agree with you, but we`re only going to do that when we find the boy. Right now, we`re going on day 10, not one word from the boy or his father, no credit card, ATM use. The car is accounted for. He`s not in the car, so where is he?
I want to go to Dr. Bill Manion, medical examiner joining us tonight. Dr. Manion, the boy is autistic, so in his mind, he`s not with his Mommy, he doesn`t know what`s going on. Weigh in, Dr. Manion. What does it mean?
DR. BILL MANION, MEDICAL EXAMINER: Well, autistic children will be more stressful in these situations. So I think he`ll be suffering more from all this unknown. There`s been a complete change in his environment. He`s not even at home right now.
I mean, I`m wondering -- this man seems to be kind of an outdoorsman. Is he out living off the woods, out living off the land for a while, just hoping people will stop chasing him or stop looking for him? It`s very unrealistic, but I think this child is suffering.
GRACE: And bottom line, Renee Rockwell, Peter Odom, as much as we`re hearing what a great guy he is, there`s an arrest warrant for him, Renee. He is on the run.
ROCKWELL: Nancy, that`s just for contempt of court. That is not for kidnapping, or it`s not for kidnapping yet.
GRACE: OK, has everybody lost their mind? Odom, he`s got the boy!
ODOM: Well, I mean, presumably he does, but this is also a father with custody.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Welcome back. The search for a 7-year-old little boy, absolutely beautiful, believed to be autistic, is on. It is day nine. The alleged kidnapper says if he cannot have the child, nobody will.
While the alleged kidnapper, James Nordrum`s, family is defending him, saying he would never hurt the child, this is what we know. He has taken the child. His car is accounted for, no ATM, no credit card activity. Police say the boy is in extreme danger.
Straight out to Ben Levitan, telecommunications expert joining us out of Raleigh. There was one text from the little boy`s phone to the dad`s family, according to them, two days ago. Then nothing. Can you ping the text, Ben Levitan?
BEN LEVITAN, TELECOMMUNICATIONS EXPERT (via telephone): Absolutely, Nancy. When -- there`s a standard (INAUDIBLE) on every cell phone network in the world that as soon as that phone pops up, turns on, the police can be notified immediately. So you know, we have to -- all we have -- and the beauty of it, it`s done at the home network. So any time you turn on your phone...
GRACE: Well, wait a minute. Wait a minute, Levitan. Are you telling me if the phone is now turned off, they cannot ping? They can`t figure out where that text message came from?
LEVITAN: Absolutely. If a phone is off, there`s nothing you can do. It`s not transmitting or receiving or communicating with anyone. It has to be turned on.
GRACE: OK, so if the phone is off right now -- let me get this straight. If the phone is off, they can`t go back and find the cell tower from which that text pinged?
LEVITAN: Oh, you`re right, Nancy. Absolutely. Yes. They can find where any communications was done. They can find out what city or state...
GRACE: Levitan, you`re giving me angina, all right?
LEVITAN: OK.
GRACE: Because I`m going to interpret what you said. And even if the phone is off now, they can go back and find the tower from which the text was pinged. Is that yes/no?
LEVITAN: That is correct.
GRACE: And right now, that`s all police have to go on is that one text message. I find it very difficult to believe a 7-year-old boy wrote that text. The tip line, everyone, 800-222-8477. There is a reward in the search for little Wyatt.
Let`s stop and remember Army Sergeant David Leimbach, 38, Hiller (ph), South Carolina, killed Afghanistan, also served Marines, Bronze Star, Purple Heart, Army Achievement, a devoted Christian, loved rock climbing, surfing, teaching Iraqi children tennis and handing out shoe donations, leaves behind parents Miriam and Gary, sister Linda, brother Jeff, widow Dawn.
David Leimbach, American hero.
Thanks to our guests, but especially to you for being with us. Happy birthday, Alabama friend, Mae Foshay (ph), mother of four, loves Alabama football.
Everyone, I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 o`clock sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.
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