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Nancy Grace
Tristan, 2-month-old Died in Bed by His Parents;
Aired April 16, 2012 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, live, Texas. Mommy and Daddy bring a beautiful baby boy home from the hospital, but wake up days later, baby Christian not sleeping but dead in the couple`s king-sized bed. Cops chalk it up to death by SIDS, determine no foul play and let the couple walk.
Bombshell tonight. In a stunning twist, nearly one year to the day later, a second newborn baby boy, baby Tristian, found stone cold dead in Mommy`s bed. Tonight...
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... up to find her infant son dead.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Clark was reckless.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Their 2-month-old son was stiff and not breathing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The baby in imminent danger.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The Texas mother says her child, Tristian, died by accident after a night sleeping alongside her in bed.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Very hard to say she wasn`t aware of the risks.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Ignoring CPS warnings to let Tristian sleep alone in a crib.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She endangered her newborn son.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This isn`t the first time.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A year earlier, the couple lost another baby while sleeping with him.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Officials say Clark`s son, Christian, lived just one month because he died the same way.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Warned about the risks of co-sleeping.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Placed a child in imminent danger.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: For sleeping in the same adult bed with their 2- month-old son, Tristian, at the time of his death.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.
Bombshell tonight. Live to Texas. Mommy and Daddy bring home a beautiful baby boy from the hospital, wake up days later, baby Christian not asleep, he`s dead in the couple`s king-sized bed. But now, in a stunning twist, a year later practically to the day, a second baby boy, baby Tristian, found stone cold dead in Mommy`s bed.
We are taking your calls. Straight out to Jean Casarez, legal correspondent "In Session." Jean, there is no coincidence in criminal law. I do not believe that this was SIDS. The hospital told me up and down, Jean, when I left with the twins, Don`t co-sleep. Don`t let them sleep together, don`t me sleep with them. Don`t anybody sleep with them. They are to sleep separately.
And I followed that rule religiously for two years, Jean, two years. I was so afraid of SIDS. You can`t tell me that this was SIDS. Two children, one mom, both about the same age, both baby boys -- I don`t believe it, Jean!
JEAN CASAREZ, "IN SESSION": And let`s look at the facts, Nancy, because during the course of that year, Child Protective Services instructed the mother and the father in safe sleep training. Rule number one, the child sleeps alone.
GRACE: Rule number one, the child sleeps alone. And you know, it all unfolded the very same way, Jean Casarez. Let`s take it from the top. Let`s talk about baby Christian. What happened in that scenario? Jean, it was just one calendar year, about, before the second baby boy found dead in bed with Mommy.
CASAREZ: Well, the first baby was just 1 month old, in the big king- sized bed with both parents. And all of a sudden, the parents wake up and the baby is cold to the touch, deceased. Cause of death was SIDS. But now with the second baby, there was no cause of death. It was undetermined, Nancy.
GRACE: And you know what? There`s more to it regarding the timeline. To Matt Zarrell. Which baby was it the mom says the baby got, quote, "fussy" around 11:00, 11:30 PM, and she put the baby in bed with her, and then she wakes up around 4:30. The alarm goes off around 4:30 and the baby is stone cold dead. Cold, she said. Which baby was that?
MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER (via telephone): Nancy, it was the most recent baby, the 2-month-old. What happened is, is that the mother told paramedics when they arrived on scene that the baby wouldn`t go to sleep in his bassinet and wakes right back up, and that`s exactly what happened.
The mom says she gave him a pacifier, but when he wouldn`t go back to sleep, she put him in their bed. The mom sets the alarm for 4:30 AM to feed and change him. Mom wakes up when the alarm goes off, turns and finds the baby cold and stiff and starts screaming.
GRACE: OK, to Dr. John Salinas, physician, joining us out of the Atlanta jurisdiction. Dr. Salinas, thanks for being with us. Let`s just talk about this scenario, Dr. Salinas, because if the baby is awake, fussy, but alive and well at 11:30, this is ambient air, the heat on in the home, the room temperature, the baby is then put in bed with the mom four hours later, make that five hours later, the baby is cold to the touch?
That`s very hard for me to believe the baby`s temperature, even in death, has dropped to the point that it`s cold and it`s in room temperature in bed with the mom?
DR. JOHN SALINAS, PHYSICIAN: It sounds a little strange, Nancy, but you know, sudden infant death syndrome is a problem in the United States. About 2 out of every 1,000, 5,000 deaths per year. And people sometimes take it for granted that, you know, sleeping in the bed with a child is a very dangerous thing, soft bedding...
GRACE: But Dr. Salinas, strictly on the body temperature, would you have expected, in ambient air, in the home, in bed, under the covers with Mommy, that the baby`s body would be cold, completely rigored, hard and cold in five hours?
SALINAS: Well, this baby died some time during the night, and that`s why it`s cold. But you know, it sounds to me like there`s something more involved. You know, that`s why there`s no diagnosis as of yet. So I`m sure the investigations will be pending for that.
GRACE: OK. To special guest joining me, Dale Summa, the assistant DA in Angelina County, Texas, who is handling this case.
Dale, thank you for being with us. The point that I`m trying to ask - - and I`m just a JD, I`m not an MD, Dale...
DALE SUMMA, ASST. DA, ANGELINA COUNTY, TEXAS: Yes, I`m here.
GRACE: It`s my experience, Dale, that at room temp, this body of the baby in the bed with the mom would not have been ice cold and hard in five hours.
SUMMA: Well, I don`t know if saying ice cold is necessarily an accurate description. The child was cool, cold, and rigor stiffness has started to set in.
GRACE: OK.
SUMMA: But the autopsy report has determined the cause of death as being undetermined, and so that`s what we have to go on...
GRACE: Right. Right. So Dr. Salinas...
SUMMA: ... with the second child.
GRACE: ... you`re speaking to the assistant DA, the district attorney in Lufkin, Dale Summa, and he says rigor had already set in. So let me try to narrow my question to you, Dr. Salinas. Would rigor have set in that quickly?
SUMMA: No. That`s what I was trying to refer. The baby`s probably been dead for quite a while. It could have been at least two hours or more. You know, usually, body temperature will decrease gradually over time, but for it to be that cold, that baby was probably dead for several hours, not just recent. So it might have died very early on. It`s hard to say when it died, but it was definitely at least more than two hours.
GRACE: To Michael Board, WOAI, joining us out of Texas. Michael, this is in your back yard. The mom was not charged the first time. The police decide on their own, I guess just listening to the mom and her sob story, that the baby died of SIDS. One year later, another infant dead in the bed with Mommy stone cold, once again a baby boy. This time, it`s baby Tristian.
What the hey is going on, Michael Board? Why did another baby have to die?
MICHAEL BOARD, WOAI: Well, it`s amazing that the mom even knew what was going on because she was whacked out on all sorts of drugs. According to the reports that we have seen, she had elevated levels of Xanax and several other drugs. She was stoned on these.
They were all prescribed, of course, but she was blanked out of her mind on this stuff. It`s amazing she knew what was going on in the first place, Nancy.
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers, Jennifer Smetters, Alex Sanchez, Marla Chicotsky. To you, Smetters. What about it?
JENNIFER SMETTERS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: Yes, you pinned the nail on the head there, the sob story that she must have told the police. Clearly, Child Protective Services got involved in that first case at some point in time and did warn her about co-sleeping. Here we have a case that didn`t get to the level of the...
GRACE: Jennifer! Jennifer!
SMETTERS: ... state prosecutor...
GRACE: Jennifer! Jennifer! Jennifer, look, I respect you`ve got a great record as a lawyer, but can we stop talking about co-sleeping, which is basically sleeping in the bed with your baby, because this baby did not die of co-sleeping. There is no coincidence in criminal law! You just can`t have two babies die in the same circumstances in the same bed with the same mom! It just doesn`t happen.
Hold on. Salinas...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: ... is SIDS genetic?
SALINAS: Well, it`s funny. It`s not genetic, but when you see it, there are sometimes when conditions appear in metabolic syndrome, cardiac problems. But these childs were born healthy, you know, and when released from the hospital...
GRACE: So bottom line, no, it`s not genetic?
SALINAS: There`s no genetic...
GRACE: So just -- that`s a yes/no, Doctor.
SALINAS: No.
GRACE: So what I`m trying to get at, Salinas, is because one child died of SIDS, genetically, there`s no propensity for the second baby boy to die of SIDS also?
SALINAS: There`s no genetic cause for it.
GRACE: You say it happens two in 5,000 (SIC) and you want me, Alex Sanchez, to believe that those two out of 5,000 just happened to be with this one mother?
ALEX SANCHEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, but you know, Nancy, what you`re neglecting to tell the general audience is that this kid was not abused. There was no marks on this baby. This kid did not die of sudden infant -- did not die of baby shaken syndrome, was not...
GRACE: Nobody said it did.
SANCHEZ: It was dressed properly. There was absolutely nothing wrong with this kid. And as a matter of fact, you should clarify exactly what SIDS means. SIDS means the death is undetermined.
GRACE: Sudden infant death syndrome.
SANCHEZ: That`s right. So how could you attribute the responsibility of death to the mother if we don`t know exactly why the child died?
GRACE: Because I`m not an MD, as I pointed out, but I know when two babies die separately in the bed with one mother that something is not right. Weigh in, Marla.
MARLA CHICOTSKY, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, there`s a reason why, Nancy, that they`re not charged with murder. There`s not an intent here that the state at this time can prove. They can prove that what she did may have been dangerous or put that child in danger...
GRACE: Well, isn`t that negligent homicide?
CHICOTSKY: ... but there is not intent.
GRACE: Well, you know what? Thank goodness somebody is sticking up for the second dead baby! Dale Summa, assistant district attorney, Angelina County, Texas, who is handling the Vanessa Clark case.
You know, Dale, the second -- one case, as you pointed out, was undetermined, right, undetermined cause of death?
SUMMA: Yes. Actually, the first case, as well. Though there was a diagnosis of SIDS, medical examiners nowadays are getting away from using that term because it`s kind of misleading. SIDS is simply an undetermined cause of death or -- and so it`s -- actually, that was -- in actuality that the first baby died of causes undetermined, as well. So that was basically the finding of the medical examiner on both cases. There were different medical examiners, but...
GRACE: Who is going to stand up for two baby boys, infants? We`ve got Dale Summa with us, who is handling the case of one dead child, but there`s another dead child.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Their punishment for bad parenting.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: An autopsy ruled the first baby died from sudden infant death syndrome.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Compared Clark to the decisions of a drunk driver.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You have a one-car accident. One or more of the family members are dead.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Vanessa Clark and her then husband were sleeping in the same adult bed with their 2-month-old son.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The Texas parents say their 2-month-old son was stiff and not breathing.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Another son died under similar circumstances less than a year before. Clark`s legal team argued there is no law stopping parents from sleeping alongside their children and that she was only trying to follow parenting guidelines from CPS after the previous death.
After seven hours of deliberation, a jury determined Vanessa and Mark Clark`s bed was a dangerous place for Tristian. Her punishment or for bad parenting could carry a 20-year prison sentence.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A very hard position to say she wasn`t aware of the risks.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This isn`t the first time Vanessa Clark woke up to find her infant son dead.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Another son died under similar circumstances less than a year before.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And considering a year earlier, the couple lost another baby while sleeping with him.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Officials say Clark`s son, Christian, lived just one month because he died the same way.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Vanessa and Mark Clark`s bed was a dangerous place for Tristian.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And were warned about the risks of co-sleeping.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Recklessly or with criminal negligence engaged in conduct that placed your child in imminent danger.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Prosecutors say it`s the parents` fault for ignoring CPS warnings to let Tristian sleep alone in a crib.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And many court watchers, including myself, say it`s a lot more sinister than simply ignoring rules against co-sleeping -- in other words, sleeping with your child. Another baby, an infant boy, can`t take care of itself, cannot represent itself, can`t stand up for itself, dead, found cold and lifeless in the bed with its mother, the stunning twist nearly a year ago to the date another baby boy in bed dead with its mother!
This time, Mommy high on Xanax and -- what else was it, Matt Zarrell? What else did she have in her system?
ZARRELL: It was hydrocodone, Nancy, which is Vicodin.
GRACE: We are taking your calls. Laurie in Florida. Hi, Laurie. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, ma`am. Nancy, I appreciate your show so much. I have a two-part question.
GRACE: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Was the father also in the bed with them at the time?
GRACE: Good question. Let me go to Dale Summa. Dale is the assistant district attorney who is representing the baby in the second death. Dale, was the father in the bed both times? I`m not clear on that.
SUMMA: He was in the same bed on both occasions.
GRACE: So we`ve got the mom and the dad. It`s the mom that always discovers the dead baby, right, Dale?
SUMMA: According to what the parents said, yes.
GRACE: We are taking your calls. Unleash the lawyers, Jennifer Smetters, Chicago, Alex Sanchez, New York, Marla Chicotsky, defense attorney, Miami.
All right, Sanchez, I think that they should go back and look at the first dead infant boy. You got a problem with that?
SANCHEZ: Again, what you think is not necessarily the law. Medical examiners examined that baby, the first baby that died, and determined that that baby died of an accident.
GRACE: No, they did not say an accident, Sanchez! They said SIDS...
SANCHEZ: That`s ridiculous.
GRACE: ... which, as the prosecutor says, is an unexplained infant death.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This isn`t is the first time Vanessa Clark woke up to find her infant son dead. The Texas mother says her child, Tristian, died by accident after a night sleeping alongside her in bed.
Prosecutors say it`s no accident because this happened before. Officials say Clark`s son, Christian, lived just one month because he died the same way. Prosecutors say it`s the parents` fault for ignoring CPS warnings to let Tristian sleep alone in a crib. Texas parents say their 2- month-old son was stiff and not breathing when they woke up from bed. The couple allegedly let their son, Tristian, sleep alongside them, leading to the infant`s death.
But Tristian`s parents tell a strikingly similar story about their first son, Christian, who died at just a month old when he slept one night in the couple`s bed. An autopsy ruled the first baby died from sudden infant death syndrome.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Vanessa Clark woke up to find her infant son dead.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She endangered her newborn son.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Vanessa Clark and her then husband were sleeping in the same adult bed with their 2-month-old son.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The Texas mother says her child, Tristian, died by accident.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Recklessly or with criminal negligence engaged in conduct that placed her child in imminent danger.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This isn`t the first time.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Another tragedy.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A year earlier, the couple lost another baby while sleeping with him.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The first baby died from sudden infant death syndrome.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And were warned about the risks of co-sleeping.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Vanessa And mark Clark`s bed was a dangerous place for Tristian.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Now two babies did dead in bed with Mommy and Daddy. Straight out to Jean Casarez, legal correspondent "In Session." I want to be clear. On one of these charges, Mom is facing felony child endangerment. But I`m talking about the original case.
Explain to me, Jean, am I right or wrong, do we have a case that could be laid out for murder on the first baby? SIDS, according to the prosecutor in this case, Dale Summa, is simply an unexplained infant death. I think we may have an explanation!
CASAREZ: You know, Nancy, when I just heard that minutes ago, I said to myself, This makes everything so much worse. So in essence, there wasn`t a cause of death for the first child. I mean, should the body be exhumed? Should you have further study to see exactly what caused the death? I see exactly your line of thinking.
GRACE: Wait, wait! Jean, look at the camera. Liz, roll it back for a moment. Roll it back. Because when you -- I`m looking at the baby when he`s got the hat on. He`s looking blue around the mouth. That could be shading -- no, no, there he is in the hospital. He looks fine. He looks fine.
I want to go back to Dr. John Salinas, Atlanta doctor. Doctor, SIDS, sudden infant death syndrome -- is the prosecutor correct in saying that is simply an unexplained infant death?
SALINAS: Well, actually, 20 percent of SIDS cases do have diagnosis or a cause for them identified. Eighty percent are unexplained, so the diagnosis of SIDS is actually a diagnosis just as it clearly says, it`s sudden infant death and...
GRACE: OK. So unexplained. Dr. Salinas, if the child had been asphyxiated, could it look like SIDS?
SALINAS: Well, asphyxiation -- you know, they check the baby`s blood, see how much carboxy-hemoglobin is in there. There`s other things they look for, you know, evidence of depressions in the face. If the baby`s new, a very young baby, they have a lot of soft spots in the head...
GRACE: Could asphyxiation look like SIDS?
SALINAS: It can.
GRACE: OK, to Paula Bloom, clinical psychologist. What is Munchausen by proxy?
PAULA BLOOM, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Munchausen by proxy has to do with you have somebody who has an illness and you`re basically creating that illness in that person.
GRACE: So you can get the attention, like Mom gets attention when babies die, right?
BLOOM: Yes. I mean, that`s Munchausen by proxy, yes.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Vanessa Clark woke up to find her infant son dead.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Clark was restless --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Their 2-month-old son was stiff and not breathing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Putting the baby in imminent danger.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The Texas mother says her child, Tristan, died by accident after a night sleeping alongside her in bed.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m very harden to say, she wasn`t aware of the risks - -
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Ignoring CPS warnings to let Tristan sleep alone in a crib.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She endangered her newborn son.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This isn`t the first time --
(END VIDEOTAPE)
NANCY GRACE, HLN HOST: Not aware of the risks? She already buried one infant boy. Baby Christian dead in bed with his mom, now baby Tristan dead in bed with his mom nearly one year later to the date of the first baby.
And another thing, out to you, Alex Sanchez, Marla Chicotsky and Jennifer Smetters.
Sanchez, she has already has one dead baby. Then she says the second baby got fussy at 11:30 at night. OK, Sanchez, you know, I have 4-year-old twins. Believe me, even last night I was up with them from 12:00 to 3:00 getting them back to sleep. A bad dream. One wets the bed. It goes on. You don`t carry on the way this mother did. Why did she put the baby back in bed with her just because the baby was fussy? She knew better than to do that. You stay up with a baby until it goes to sleep.
ALEX SANCHEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes. The same reason why millions of American women take their babies and put them in their bed. You know, it`s not a crime.
GRACE: No, it`s not.
SANCHEZ: It`s not a crime to have your baby sleep with you. Of if it`s so dangerous and such an egregious activity, why doesn`t some legislator somewhere say it`s a crime to put your baby in bed with you? It`s not a crime and so it`s not improper to put her baby this bed with her.
GRACE: Alex -- Alex -- Alex, OK. Let me try to steer you back into the middle of the road. Nobody said it`s a crime to sleep with your children. I sleep with my children, but I didn`t when they were at risk of SIDS, which I think is up until 2-years-old.
No way. They didn`t even sleep together. And this mother already had one dead baby. So I`ll give you this chance to correct yourself because now you know you`ve been told by the prosecutor, Dale Summa, and a doctor, Dr. Salinas, that SIDS is not a cause of death. It is simply an unknown cause of death. That`s what you call it when a baby dies with no apparent reason.
SANCHEZ: Right, and that gets to my original defense. If the prosecution can`t establish why this baby died, why are you then going to blame somebody for the death of that baby? It doesn`t make any sense. It makes no legal sense.
GRACE: OK. You know what, you know what, help me out, Lisa Lockwood, former police detective. I think I am making sense. Two babies --
LISA LOCKWOOD, FORMER POLICE DETECTIVE: You absolutely are.
GRACE: -- no cause of death, same bed, same mother. Mother doped up on xanax and oxycontin.
LOCKWOOD: At the minimum reckless endangerment, at the very minimum you have a mother who is intoxicated whether it`s prescription drugs or another narcotic. She was intoxicated. She wasn`t in a state to take care of a newborn baby. Bottom line.
GRACE: To Samantha in Kentucky. Hi, Samantha. What`s your question?
SAMANTHA, CALLER, KENTUCKY: Hi. I was just wondering, were they suffocated? Is that what they were?
GRACE: You know what, that`s the thing, Samantha. They are calling it SIDS, sudden infant death syndrome.
I`m going to go back to the prosecutor in Angelina county, Texas, who is standing up for one of these children, the most recent infant child, baby Tristan found dead in bed with this woman, and they`re coming in my ear telling me she was also high on vicodin. Don`t want to leave that out.
So to you, Dale Summa, asphyxiation, is there any way, Dale, to exhume the body of baby Christian, the first baby, to look at whether there was asphyxiation? I mean, in the first case, Dale Summa, did they do an autopsy or was it just attributed to SIDS? I know --
DALE SUMMA, PROSECUTOR, ANGELINA COUNTY, TEXAS (via telephone): No, no. They did a full autopsy. But let me say this, that what the medical examiner told me in connection with this case that many of these undetermined cause of deaths when you have children that age, whether they`re sleeping in the same bed as a parent or otherwise, there is no medical through an autopsy -- they cannot tell in many, many instances whether this child accidentally suffocated or not. And the instances where they can say that the child accidentally suffocated, they have incidents where somebody maybe came in the room and they see that the parent was on top of the child or maybe there was a stuffed animal that was on top of the child --
GRACE: Was that the case, Dale, in the case of the first baby?
SUMMA: One month old can`t even turn over on themselves if a comforter ended up on their face. So, you know, an older child, 2-year-old, can easily push that off. But the thing is that accidental asphyxiation can be a child turned over next to a pillow and they`re taking in their own carbon dioxide.
GRACE: Well, was that the case in the first death, Dale?
SUMMA: On many of the unexplained infant deaths that the most likely cause of death is suffocation. But because they can`t rule out some problems with the heart or that sort of thing where there`s no sign that they have to put the cause of death as undetermined.
To Michael Board, WOAI, joining us out of Texas, in light of a second dead child, do you think it is wise to go back and reopen the first case? Police let them walk the first time just assuming SIDS. No charges, no nothing, and now the second baby dead.
MICHAEL BOARD, REPORTER, WOAI NEWSRADIO: Well, you know, you have to look at the history of this woman. She has a very violent history. It was about a decade ago she got in a fight with another woman, stabbed her in the hand with a knife. She`s --
GRACE: Wait a minute, whoa, whoa, wait. Look at your screen. There`s the 2011 mug shot. It looks like a glamour shot she took at the mall. Let`s see all of her glamour shots, Liz, every -- there you go. `98. `99. `99. 2000, 2000, 2000, 2004, 2010, 2011. And she just gets better looking, Michael Board. What does she think this is a photo shoot? They`re mug shots.
BOARD: You know, it shows that she has an unpredictable nature, a violent nature. In the first case who knows, maybe she couldn`t control her impulses and maybe she did something. It`s worth looking into seeing her violent history and her history of not being able to control her actions.
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers; Smetters, Sanchez, Chicotsky, let`s see those mug shots.
Hey, Sanchez. Can you look at your screen? No, no. I want the group shot. The group shot, Liz. The group shot. There you go.
OK, now. Sanchez, what were you saying about this innocent mom?
SANCHEZ: It`s incredible. I`m hearing trial by speculation because the Munchausen syndrome and then we have Michael Board with his theories. I`m not interested in theories. I`m not interested in speculation.
GRACE: Can you address all the mug shots?
SANCHEZ: I`m interested and you should be interested in the evidence. And what`s the evidence linking her to the death of that child? I don`t care if she`s a serial killer, you have to prove that she had some responsibility for the death of that child, period.
GRACE: Let`s talk some sense. What about it, Chicotsky?
MARLA CHICOTSKY, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I think it`s going to be very difficult, Nancy, to show the Mensrea (ph) of this woman on the first baby. Now --
GRACE: OK. Marla. I appreciate Mensrea (ph). In other words, criminal intent, but, frankly, throwing around fancy legal or Latin terms doesn`t impress me. So let`s just break it down because, Marla Chicotsky, you`re a veteran child lawyer. The reality is that in cases like negligent homicide, you don`t have to have criminal intent. What about that?
CHICOTSKY: Absolutely. She is not being charged with murder because they need a crime where they don`t need intent. Exactly what they`ve charged her with.
GRACE: What about it, Jennifer Smetters?
JENNIFER SMETTERS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: Reckless behavior needs to have consequences in the legal system.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A very hard position to say she wasn`t aware of the risks.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This isn`t the first time Vanessa Clark woke up to find her infant son dead.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Another son died under similar circumstances less than a year before.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Considering a year earlier the couple lost another baby while sleeping with him.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Officials say Clark`s son, Christian, lived just one month because he died the same way.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Vanessa and Mark Clark`s bed was a dangerous place for Tristan.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And were warned about the risks of co-sleeping.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Recklessly or with criminal negligence engaged in conduct that placed the child in imminent danger.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Prosecutors say it`s the parents` fault for ignoring CPS warnings to let Tristan sleep alone in a crib.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GRACE: Nina in California. Hi, Nina. What`s your question?
NINA, CALLER, CALIFORNIA: Oh, my God. If I could almost throw up. I mean, how can a mother that has already lost a child exactly in bed, did they take any pictures of this child and were there any eye bulging so if there was a strangulation, asphyxiation, would it have shown on that baby in the picture they would have taken at maybe a hospital?
GRACE: Jean Casarez, what do we know?
JEAN CASAREZ, IN SESSION CORRESPONDENT: This is what we know, Nancy. It was a king-sized bed, and there were numerous pillows, big pillows, all over the bed, and two different comforters.
GRACE: You know, Jean, you were with me when the twins were first born no New York. Remember the two cribs and I would a lot of times sleep on the floor between them, I was so afraid to have them in the bed with me because hospitals school you on SIDS and co-sleeping. So, if you want to give the mom one free dead baby, all right, now you have the second one to deal with, Jean. In my mind, where I come from, we call that a similar transaction.
CASAREZ: That`s right. And the bassinet that was beside the bed for the second baby, that showed knowledge on her part of what was right and what was wrong.
GRACE: We are taking your calls.
Amanda, Louisiana. Hi, Amanda. What`s your question?
AMANDA, CALLER, LOUISIANA: Yes, I would like to know, why wasn`t the mother that was accuse d of killing her two infant children, why didn`t she use a baby monitor instead of having those children sleeping with her?
GRACE: Good question. To Dale Summa, he is the assistant district attorney out of Angelina county, who stood up and went up to the plate for baby number two. Was she using any kind of a monitor, Dale?
SUMMA: No, but actually the baby monitors wouldn`t -- that wouldn`t have any effect or any difference if you have a child in your own bed. Actually, I think children can protective services actually in some instances warn about baby monitors because they feel that the parent might place too much emphasis on that and not otherwise, you know, look after the child. But in this case, there was a bassinet and crib which was in the same room.
GRACE: Right. You know, there are also those monitors, I think they`re called angel care or something like that, where you place it under the child and it actually goes off.
Michael Board, if the child doesn`t breathe for about 20 seconds. I had one. I was so afraid of SIDS that I actually got them. I think they`re called angel care, I`m not sure anymore. But it looks like a very thin pillow and you put it under the baby and it is a motion detector is what it is. It takes nothing for "x" number of seconds it goes off.
But Michael, at the hospital they told us don`t even put blankets in the bed with the baby. Don`t put pillows, stuffed animals, nothing. The baby is really supposed to be in there with pajamas on that are warm enough to keep it warm. That`s what you`re supposed to do with newborns.
BOARD: You know, it`s simple things like that. She knew better. She cannot use the excuse of I didn`t know. This is her second child, Nancy.
GRACE: I think we`re looking at an exhumation of the first body.
Out to Cindy. Cindy, question?
CINDY, CALLER: Yes. Yes, I`m just wondering, these children that both passed away, do they have the same father or is it different fathers?
GRACE: Yes. Good question, Cindy. To you, Jean Casarez, daddy is facing a charge this time, too, as well. He was home and is it the same dad? I think it is.
CASAREZ: Yes, it`s the same father and he is facing a charge. You are exactly right.
GRACE: Everybody, we are taking your calls. And I understand I have Ken Seeley back with me.
Ken, everybody is talking about -- you`re the interventionist -- with about how this mom should have had an intervention for all of her drugs. I`m a lot less worried about the mom than I am about the two dead infants. But weigh in as an interventionist Ken Seeley.
KEN SEELEY, INTERVENTIONIST, INTERVENTION 911: Yes, Nancy, I`m with you 100 percent on this. She needs to serve the consequences that are necessary for those actions. I mean, she was warned once and how can a mother put their child back into a bed after losing a child a year earlier? I mean, there`s something not right there and it seems to me, it is all related but, again, this doesn`t make it OK. There needs to be consequences for that.
GRACE: What are the effects of all those drugs? There`s vicodin, xanax, I think oxycontin is maybe the same thing as vicodin. I`m not sure. What affect does that have on you if you have all of that in system?
SEELEY: You combine them all and they knock you out. You might as well be in the operating room knocked out because you cannot wake up. You could go through an earthquake and not feel it. So it`s really about she`s already been warned, she has already been caught not to do this and putting drugs in her system and if the reports are true from the last time that she was arrested for drug abuse, you know, that doesn`t matter at this point. What matters is another kid is gone.
GRACE: You know, to Dale Summa. Dale is the assistant district attorney that stepped up to the plate and is representing the people -- in other words, baby Tristan.
Dale, question -- Liz, put up all those mug shots, please. Has she ever done hard jail time after all of these arrests?
SUMMA: I can comment only on the case that`s alleged in the indictment, an aggravated a assault with a deadly weapon. I can`t comment on anything else. The aggravated assault with a deadly weapon she did serve time.
GRACE: Everybody, you are seeing the multiple mug shots of Vanessa Clark. This last case gone to court handled by Dale Summa, but what about the first dead baby?
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Her punishment for bad parenting --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: An autopsy ruled the first baby died from sudden infant death syndrome.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Compared Clark to the decisions of a drunk driver.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You have a one-car accident, one or more of the family members are dead.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Vanessa Clark and her then husband were sleeping in the same adult bed with their 2-month-old son.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Texas parents say their 2-month-old son was stiff and not breathing. Another son died under similar circumstances less than a year before. Clark`s legal team argued there is no law stopping parents from sleeping alongside their children and that she was only trying to follow parenting guidelines from CPS after the previous death.
After seven hours of deliberation, a jury determined Vanessa and Mark Clark`s bed was a dangerous place for Tristan. Her punishment for bad parenting could carry a 20 year prison sentence.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This isn`t the first time Vanessa Clark woke up to find her infant son dead. The Texas mother says her child, Tristan, died by accident after a night sleeping alongside her in bed.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GRACE: Everyone, have you ever seen the new hit series "Raising Hope" on FOX? Well, I`m lucky enough to be part of the final season finale. Part two is tomorrow night, 9:30 p.m. And I want to send out a special thank you to all of the cast and crew at "Raising Hope."
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GRACE: Welcome back to inside pro. We look at the small town in the groups of a serial killer named Lucy Carlisle.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, you`re watching "Inside Probe." I remember that.
GRACE: We got to know the simple family who brought her down.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is familiar. I remember that.
GRACE: But not before the son, Jimmy Chance, got her pregnant. Lucy was tried and convicted. There was even a jailhouse wedding.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Yep. It`s all coming back to me. I remember that.
GRACE: And we showed you the incredible news, Lucy was somehow not executed.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m alive.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t think you remembered that.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No ma stay.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What is no ma stay?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sounds like some sort of fancy pepper.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I Don`t know, Jimmy. She`s nuts.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mamma bought this to be buried in. I don`t think she expected to be living past the `80s.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I get it. You look like the hooker from "pretty woman" but in the movie where she`s a lawyer.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You`re the only lawyer we can afford. Most attorneys don`t list their fees with or best offer after it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s a reason I do that. I`m a terrible lawyer.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GRACE: Let`s stop and remember air force senior airman Jonathan Viga Yelner, 24, Lafayette, California. Killed Afghanistan. Bronze star, purple heart, left college to enlist. Loved lacrosse, proud of his Puerto Rican heritage.
Leaves behind parents Bruce and Yolanda, stepfather, Bill, brother, Matthew.
Jonathan Viga Yelner, American hero.
Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us.
April is child abuse prevention month. This week marks the national day of hope. Five children die every day from abuse. Child help, raising awareness, fighting for abuse and neglected children. Founder, Sarah O`Meara, Yvonne Fedderson. For info on how you can join the fight against child abuse and neglect, go to childhelp.org.
Everyone, I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.
END
