Return to Transcripts main page
Nancy Grace
Landfill Search for Missing 6-Year-Old
Aired April 24, 2012 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, live, Tucson. A parent`s worst nightmare, Mom and Dad tuck their 6-year-old girl, Isabel, into bed, settle into bed themselves just a few feet away. Next morning, Daddy checks on her, 8:00 AM, Isabel gone. After new evidence uncovered, the family out of the home while 6-year-old Isabel`s room and the rest of the home searched by K9s, including a cadaver dog.
Bombshell tonight. In the last hours, investigators execute a second warrant at the home. Then police take the search to a landfill. In a new twist, neighbors report the family dogs known to bark at strangers. Did they bark that night?
At this hour, no one ruled out sex, offenders within a three-mile radius tracked down. Tonight, where is Isabel? We investigate the clues left behind.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s a parent`s worst nightmare.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The desperate search for 6-year-old Isabel.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Possible abduction.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Missing.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Vanished from her own bedroom in the middle of the night.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where is she?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re labeling this as suspicious circumstances.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police confirm a window was open.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And a screen was off.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She was not in her room at that point.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Two specially trained FBI dogs found something of interest.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The dogs did alert on a few things.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They have searched inside and outside every home in the neighborhood.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A landfill search...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) they were looking is strategically placed in the landfill that would come from this geographical area.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Checking every -- every corner, every nook and cranny that could possibly hold a child.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Close to the child`s home is this surveillance camera.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m unable to provide you specifics about whether or not we do, in fact, have any surveillance footage.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The family has been cooperating with us.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If you knew this family...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re not ruling anything out in this investigation.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There`s just no possible way that the family would have anything to do with this.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: More and more time goes by, the girl has not been found.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And the clock continues to tick.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Bombshell tonight, live, Tucson. Mom and Dad tuck 6-year-old Isabel into bed. Daddy checks on her 8:00 AM, she`s gone. In the last hours, investigators execute a second search warrant at the family home. Then police take the search to a landfill.
We are live and taking your calls. Straight out to Paul Birmingham, news director, KNST. Paul, why a landfill?
PAUL BIRMINGHAM, KNST (via telephone): This is a landfill about seven miles away. What investigators are hoping for is any piece of evidence at that landfill where trash was taken after Isabel had been reporting missing.
There was a Saturday pickup. They`re hoping by going through that landfill, they may find something that they could have missed possibly at the scene of the home or nearby. So they`ve been combing through. They continue to do so -- a very hot, nasty, just terrible day to do it, nearly 100 degree temperatures. So it`s been a long search of that landfill today, and it`s continuing right now.
GRACE: As you can see, the workers wearing moonsuits so as not to contaminate evidence and to protect themselves, as well. You are seeing fans being used right now, the crime scene unit there at the landfill. This landfill situated about seven miles from Isabel`s home.
Paul Birmingham, news director, KNST, you were telling me something about the timing of the trash pickup outside Isabel`s home. Repeat?
BIRMINGHAM: That`s correct. There is the belief that the trash may have been picked up after the time that she was reported missing, before that thorough, exhaustive search can be conducted near the home. So they`re wanting to get in there and find any piece of evidence that they may have missed again at the crime scene at the home there.
GRACE: You are taking an aerial look at Los Reales dump. It`s a landfill. And there in that landfill is garbage from Isabel`s neighborhood reportedly picked up the morning she was found missing.
There`s the alley near the home. Take a look at where cops have been looking for clues.
We are taking your calls. And joining me there at the Celis family home, Natisha Lance, live in Tucson. Natisha, it`s been around 100 degrees today, the landfill search ongoing. What`s happening?
NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, Nancy, just as Paul explained, that landfill search is supposed to continue. But there have been investigators at the home. They took down the crime scene tape early this morning, and the parents are now able to go back into the home.
Now, police are saying at this point that they don`t know when that will happen. They are preparing the parents to go back. But it is up to them as to when they will go back into the home. And again, Nancy, that search warrant that was executed ended about 1:30 this morning. Police did not reveal any information about what was taken or not taken during that search.
GRACE: To Jean Casarez, legal correspondent, "In Session." Jean, what have you learned?
JEAN CASAREZ, "IN SESSION": Well, first thing, we have just been able to confirm that no dogs have been taken out to that landfill. They`re using manual techniques, sifting and searching through everything.
And why have they not been taken out? They say there are so many odors that they just feel it would be too difficult. If they find something specific, they want a dog to see if there is an alert on, they will bring a dog out.
GRACE: And landfill searches have been successful in the past. We all remember the case of Lori Hacking. In that case, her body was found at the landfill. Of course, Natalee Holloway case, there was a landfill search there. Many, many other landfill searches. Some have been successful.
But it certainly takes us down a different road. Jean Casarez, explain the significance of a landfill search at this juncture.
CASAREZ: Well, let`s face reality. This may be a missing persons case. This is also a homicide case. They`re not saying it publicly, but when you`re searching a landfill, yes, maybe you`re trying to find something that the perpetrator threw away that could have his DNA on it. But for all practical purposes, you`re looking for a body.
GRACE: We are taking your calls. And we understand that police searched the family home. Everyone, all of you know by now the screen removed from Isabel`s window, found below the window, her window open that evening. We know also that police searched the home, the family out of the home while police searched the home.
Take a look at these entrance, these possible entrance and exit routes of a kidnapper. Look at that window. How would you get up to that window without a ladder of some sort? Extremely tall. Windows open, screens removed. Take a look at those windows in the back.
Jean Casarez, I understand only one screen was removed. Is that correct?
CASAREZ: I think you`re right, Nancy. You know, this brings back memories of Elizabeth Smart. And I learned at that trial in Utah that after Elizabeth and Brian David Mitchell were in the mountains, he wanted to kidnap her cousin, went down, went to the window, got a screen off. But you know what they found, Nancy, at the scene when they went there? He wasn`t successful. They found a ladder. They found a chair. They found something that he was stepping up on to get that window screen off.
GRACE: So it can be done. To Ellie Jostad. I still keep trying to get an answer and I can`t get an answer. We were told the parents put Isabel to sleep that night. Which parent? Did both parents carry her into her room and put her to sleep, or one parent? The next morning, we know the mother left around 7:30 AM for her job as a pediatric nurse, as I recall.
ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Right.
GRACE: The father checks on her at 8:00 AM. Did the mother check on her before she left? Why can`t I get answers to those simple questions?
JOSTAD: Yes. That is a question that has been repeatedly asked to Tucson police. And they say that there are certain details in the investigation -- specifically, did Mom go into that bedroom before 8:00 AM -- that they just aren`t going to answer right now. So we are still trying to find that out, Nancy.
GRACE: And to you, Paul Birmingham, KNST. Where are the parents? Where are Mr. and Ms. Celis? Have they made public pleas for their daughter`s return?
BIRMINGHAM: They actually did make a statement yesterday that was released through the police, saying they appreciate everyone`s interest, and essentially, they love their daughter, and they will never give up trying to find her.
As far as their whereabouts right now, that is unknown, though we do - - unknown to me, at least, though we do know that they are being allowed back to the home today with that execution of the second search warrant wrapping up very early this morning.
GRACE: Well, what I don`t understand, Paul, is why a public plea has not been made on camera.
BIRMINGHAM: That`s an excellent question. We have seen that written statement that, again, was released through the Tucson PD, but we`ve not seen any appearance on camera, a little bit odd in this case.
GRACE: Well, it may be that they`re so distraught that they cannot speak. But I think that it would be extremely helpful.
With me right now -- and as you recall, her daughter abducted and murdered -- Erin Runnion is with us, founder of the Joyful Child Foundation at TheJoyfulChild.org.
I recall distinctly covering the kidnap of your daughter and your public plea. And when I think of the gold standard for parents, I think of you and Marc Klaas and how you did everything right to find Samantha. I remember it all like it was yesterday.
In fact, I believe I was on the Larry King show. I can`t remember the night that you were on. And I will never forget it. I remember the poster that you said Samantha had up, and how she could outrun anybody. Remember that story you told, when you were trying to explain to her how to behave if a stranger approached her? Do you remember that?
ERIN RUNNION, DAUGHTER SAMANTHA ABDUCTED AND MURDERED: Yes. Yes. Yes, we had talked about what to do if somebody approached her. She was very worried about it. She had been to a "stranger danger" assembly. And so we had -- she had asked questions about what to do if somebody approached her or tried to hurt her. I wish I had known then what I know now.
GRACE: Erin, what was it that she said about she could outrun anyone? Do you remember that? I remember your words struck me when you said that, and imaging the two of you -- and now I never knew that I would have my twins. And I really don`t know how to talk to them about strangers that could hurt them because I don`t want them to have to think about that.
RUNNION: Exactly.
GRACE: But they do have to think about that.
RUNNION: Yes. You know, and I think that when we talk with our children, we can do it in a way that isn`t scary.
GRACE: Right.
RUNNION: You know, we teach them all about other types of safety, fire, earthquakes, tornadoes. And I think if you incorporate personal safety in that conversation, you can do it in a way that isn`t terrifying. You know, if somebody came in your room, throw something down, make all the noise that you possibly can.
The National Center for Missing and Exploited Children did a study of over 400 cases of children escaping -- who escaped abductions. And in over 80 percent of those cases, it was a child`s physical resistance that enabled their escape.
So I think empowering children with realistic options and things that they can do to get away from somebody is really a critical gift.
GRACE: Everyone, with me and taking your calls, Erin Runnion. Erin, would you advise the parents in this case to make a public plea for the return of their daughter?
RUNNION: I would. You know, in our case, the law enforcement agency was really wonderful about communicating with us about the transitions that they were making as the case progressed. And one of those -- I`ll never forget it -- the public information officer coming in and telling me, you know, I didn`t have to make a public plea, but that getting the public`s help in sending in leads and tips was really critical. And making my daughter real for people was my job to -- that I could be that face for her and that voice for her.
And so he told me that I could go out and make the statement, and if - - that they -- we wouldn`t accept any questions. If anybody did, he`d just pull me back in. So he was very protective of me and gave me a safe space to do that and made it possible for me to do that.
GRACE: I think that it could make a difference in this case. And to you, Jean Casarez, why is there going to be -- why are there going to be cops at the family home 24/7?
CASAREZ: Well, they feel the family may need security, so that is why they`re going to do this. But they`ve also confirmed today that there were three types of dogs that appeared to have visited that home from the Department of Corrections, an odor dog, FBI, direct (ph) offer (ph) offender odor, following a perpetrator and victory (ph) recovery dog, better known as a cadaver dog.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He is guilty, guilty, guilty, guilty! Someone has taken all of this away from me, and everyone else loves him!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I hope they get you and I hope they make you pay for a long, long time!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And the search is on for this little girl.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Isabel Mercedes Celis.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Six-year-old girl.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: May have been snatched from her bedroom.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There`s a wall all the way around that house.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We haven`t heard whether the door was locked or unlocked.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There was a screen that was removed from a window to the residence.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Suspicious circumstances.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This could be an abduction, but it may not be an abduction.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They`re not ruling anything out, including homicide.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We are just devastated by this.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s a residential area, but we`re bordered by businesses on two sides.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have buildings, as well as open desert area. When you`re dealing with such a small child...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A 6-year-old girl in Arizona.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... there could be innumerable places where they could be hidden or where evidence could be found.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are live and taking your calls. The search of the family home goes into the wee hours of the night, until nearly 2:00 AM, the family out of the home while police go back with a second warrant to search the home.
This as the search also moves to this landfill. Here`s footage we`re showing you in the search for little Isabel. That is a sinister turn in the search for the girl, many holding out hope that she has been kidnapped.
We are taking your calls. Joining me right now, in addition to Erin Runnion, Roger Winkler is with us. He`s a retired captain, Salt Lake City PD. He headed the landfill search for Lori Hacking, a successful landfill search. What are they up against, Roger?
ROGER WINKLER, LED LANDFILL SEARCH FOR LORI HACKING (via telephone): Well, ma`am, they have a tremendous amount of work in front of them. They`ve got a lot of debris, probably, to go through. And depending on how much was deposited, they could have quite a large search area that they have to go through and make sure that they look for the evidence that they`re searching for.
GRACE: The temperature up around 100 degrees this afternoon, Roger Winkler, in that area. But also, you`ve got to be so meticulous. Isn`t it true, Roger, that you guys didn`t find Lori Hacking`s body in the traditional sense. You found, for instance, some hair. You found portions of your -- of her body.
WINKLER: Yes, that`s correct. We did not find her completely intact, although we did find a significant portion of her in one area. But they can be that type of search that you can be looking for multiple pieces of evidence.
GRACE: We are learning at this hour, police will not reveal what the dog hit on in the house, which is very disturbing. Also, Jean, they will not answer our questions as to the timeline.
CASAREZ: No, you`re right, Nancy. But if there is one thing you have taught me, Nancy Grace, it is devil is in the details. And let`s look at this fact. There are three dogs, one being a cadaver dog. All three dogs provided information.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Snatched from her bedroom.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My heart is breaking.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Isabel Mercedes Celis.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Little Issa, as many call her.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Six years old and abducted.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We will fight for you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Her mother is beside herself, as anybody else would be.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Six-year-old Isabel Mercedes Celis was tucked into bed by her parents.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She was gone the next morning.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Searching the home where a 6-year-old vanished.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Possible entry point into Isabel`s bedroom.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have a window that was open and a screen removed.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Still no sign of Isabel, and the clock continues to click.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls. Out to Natisha Lance, standing by there at the Celis family home. How high up is her window off the ground, Natisha?
LANCE: You know, Nancy, we couldn`t get close enough to see right under that window, but I would say it`s about six feet. There is a wall that is butted up right up against the house. And there is a lot of foot traffic in this area. There are tons of commercial buildings, tons of commercial businesses around the area. And there is an alleyway also behind the neighborhood, which there`s numerous dumpsters, numerous businesses that are over there. So...
(CROSSTALK)
LANCE: ... numerous people who could have had access to the neighborhood.
GRACE: We are taking your calls, but now we are joined by C.W. Jensen, retired Portland police captain, as well as Roger Winkler. He headed the landfill search for Lori Hacking.
Roger, I saw -- it looked like tractors going through the landfill, Roger Winkler. Aren`t they afraid that they will destroy evidence?
WINKLER: Well, that certainly can happen using the heavy equipment in the landfill. But the normal operation, when you -- when they receive debris into the landfill is to actually move it around, usually with dozers or front-end loaders or that size of -- or that type of equipment. And then, actually...
GRACE: Oh, I see! Yes, yes, I understand. There at the Los Reales landfill, they will be lifting up large quantities of trash, then sifting through it.
To C.W. Jensen, retired Portland police captain. C.W., what do you make of the fact that they already had one warrant to search the home, then they got a second warrant to search the home? Why would they need a second warrant?
C.W. JENSEN, RETIRED PORTLAND POLICE CAPTAIN: Perhaps, if the first warrant didn`t cover an area that they ultimately felt they needed to find, as well. It depends on how -- the wording of your warrant. It`s very, very specific to get that.
And people might be curious why parents probably said, Go ahead and search, they had to get a warrant (INAUDIBLE) to protect themselves.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Friends and family and co-workers have all come together to pass out flyers and getting word of mouth out.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have a window that was open and a screen removed. We`re labeling it as suspicious circumstances.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Arizona FBI-trained dogs are searching the home where a 6-year-old girl vanished over the weekend.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But over 140 law enforcement officers with multiple agencies are on the lookout, along with hundreds in the community.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Six years old and abducted.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The search for 6-year-old Isabel Celis has now broadened to include Tucson`s landfill.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The landfill search --
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The location of the trash they are looking is strategically placed in the landfill that would come from this geographical area.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Police tell us the trash in Isabel`s neighborhood was picked up.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Police say they`re investigating a screen in Isabel`s bedroom as a possible point of entry in that home.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re still trying to determine where Isabel is and bring her home safely.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Isabel`s parents were questioned all night long.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She was checked on at about 8:00 when her father went in to wake her up.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We had two separate dogs come in.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Despite countless tips and a re-canvass of the area, still no sign of Isabel.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: It`s a parent`s worst nightmare.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The desperate search for 6-year-old Isabel.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Possible abduction.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Missing.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Vanished from her own bedroom in the middle of the night.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Where is she?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re labeling it as suspicious circumstances.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Police confirmed --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY GRACE, HLN HOST: Where is 6-year-old Isabel Celis? Nickname Isa.
We are taking your calls. Out to Chris in Ohio. Hi, Chris, what`s your question?
CHRIS, CALLER FROM OHIO: Hi, Nancy. It`s such an honor to be talking with you. And thank you so much for everything that you do.
GRACE: Thank you.
CHRIS: I`m wondering, we know that they`re searching the landfill. Do we know -- was it a special garbage pickup that somebody actually called in and scheduled or was it a regular garbage pickup day?
GRACE: It`s my understanding -- out to you, Jean Casarez -- it was a regular pickup on Saturday morning?
JEAN CASAREZ, LEGAL CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION": Yes. Routine but early Saturday morning.
GRACE: You know, it`s -- I understand, Ellie, that the two little brothers, they`re not younger than her, but they`re young. That they joined in the search, that they were out in the neighborhood looking for their sister.
ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE CHIEF EDITORIAL PRODUCER: Right.
GRACE: And that the one little boy several times out looking for his sister broke down and just literally fell down crying for Isa. Crying for his 6-year-old sister. What do you know, Ellie?
JOSTAD: Right, Nancy. One of the neighbors who talked to local media said that his own son went to help the Celis family, one of the brothers, when this little brother -- or it`s an older brother to her, but like you said, he`s still young, was out frantically looking around the neighborhood, thinking she might be, you know, playing somewhere in the neighborhood, running around, looking everywhere for her.
And he says that the Celis brother actually just got down on his knees and sobbed a couple of times, because they could not find his little sister.
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers. Kelly Saindon, former prosecutor, Chicago. Pilar Prinz, defense attorney, Kirby Clements, defense attorney, Atlanta.
Kelly Saindon, what do you make of the fact that they`re already in the home with a search warrant, yet they go get a second search warrant to continue the search of the home? That legally is very probative.
KELLY SAINDON, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: I agree with you. I think it`s very important, and it leads me to believe that they definitely suspect foul play, and they think something happened inside the house to this girl.
GRACE: What about it, Kirby?
KIRBY CLEMENTS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I would have to say the same thing. I think that by getting a search warrant, what they do is they enable -- they prevent any challenges down the line to overly aggressive police behavior, because they had a judge to rule on it. But it does, it does give rise to the fact that they are ruling no one out as a suspect.
GRACE: Kirby, let`s give an example. For instance, on cops in a car, let`s just say they`re chasing a car due to exigent or breaking circumstances. You don`t have to have a warrant to stop a car. But say you look in the trunk, and you see a box, a trunk -- in the trunk, a suitcase. And it smells. A lot of times you get a warrant to open that container because while you can look in the car for weapons, you can`t start opening containers.
What I`m saying is, it`s a search beyond the initial search. A search that is beyond what is covered in that first warrant. Agree or disagree?
CLEMENTS: Oh, no, I agree. And even if you look at a house, if a resident gives consent to search the house, that consent is limited to where they said you can search. You can search the living room, that means you can`t look in the bedroom. So by getting a warrant, it opens up the entire house, out to police to search.
GRACE: Kirby, Kirby, Kirby, Kirby, crazy talk.
CLEMENTS: Yes.
GRACE: Pilar Prinz, have you ever seen a warrant for a home that says we can just search the bedroom? No.
PILAR PRINZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, sure, Nancy. I mean, you don`t know what the initial warrant was so we haven`t seen it --
GRACE: Well, have you ever --
PRINZ: That`s what bothers me.
GRACE: You`ve never seen a warrant that says we can just search the bedroom, because they never say that. So that`s not what happened. Something else happened that required them to get a second search warrant.
Does anybody that graduated from an accredited law school and passed the bar on this panel disagree?
PRINZ: Nancy, it goes back to your point, Nancy.
SAINDON: No, you`re right, Nancy. You`re right.
(CROSSTALK)
PRINZ: It goes back to your point about where they search in the car, but if they find the trunk that they want to look in the trunk. So maybe that this warrant, the first one they had, was too limited and they found other places that they wanted to search, not covered by the first warrant.
GRACE: OK, Kelly Saindon, take care Kirby Clements to school. Explain to him what we`re talking --
CLEMENTS: No, no, I was talking about the --
(CROSSTALK)
CLEMENTS: No, you`ve got to listen to what I said, Nancy. I was about talking about consent.
SAINDON: I think you`re right. I think that it`s absolutely more general. No, no, you said that if there`s only one room, then they would go to a different room and they need a warrant. And you`re right on that. But no family is going to say you can only come in and use one.
In the general search warrant was problem, we need to go in and look for something suspicious, this girl is missing, and exactly what you said, Nancy, the dog had a hit and there was something else there that they said, you know what, we need more time and we need more details. We need to be able to inspect certain things.
This is very probative in this case. It`s uncommon to go back that quickly for a search warrant. Something raised a lot of suspicious in this case.
GRACE: Second search -- to Jean Casarez, what can you tell me about the family dogs?
CASAREZ: Well, the dogs were supposed to be very vocal, they always barked any time neighbors went by and the dogs would see them, they barked. We don`t know if the dogs barked after 11:00 p.m. Saturday night up until 8:00 in the morning on Saturday.
GRACE: You know, there have been other cases, specifically the O.J. Simpson case, where the dog Akita began howling and barking in the middle of the night. Recall that, Jean?
CASAREZ: Yes. That can be very, very instrumental. A dog barking. Because that is incident of something happening. I think in many of these cases. But the question is, the dogs didn`t bark? That is what we believe. But yet the dog -- the specialized dogs hit on something in the home, and that`s what caused that second search warrant, Nancy.
GRACE: To Kelli Collins, co-owner and trainer of Georgia K9 National Training Center. Kelli, why do they have so many different types of dogs searching in that home?
KELLI COLLINS, CO-OWNER/TRAINER, GEORGIA K9 NATIONAL TRAINING CENTER: Well, Nancy, it`s hard -- it`s hard to say. Honestly, it looks like they`ve had the cadaver dogs in there. They could have hit on anything. Body fluid, anything. They should have had sent some specific dogs in there, possibly looking for a trail out from her.
GRACE: What do you mean by scent-specific dogs?
COLLINS: Scent-specific trailing dogs. Trained to detect the individual scent.
GRACE: Gotcha.
COLLINS: From her.
GRACE: To Dr. Michelle Dupre, medical examiner, forensic pathologist joining us out of Columbia.
Dr. Dupre, thank you for being with us. Right now, a landfill search is going on. What, if anything, would they find if Isabel were in this landfill, god forbid?
DR. MICHELLE DUPRE, M.D., MEDICAL EXAMINER & FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Nancy, they could find a number of things, really. They could obviously find a body or parts of a body. They could also find clothing. They could find other things that may have been with her at the time of her disappearance.
GRACE: Joining me, Cheryl Arutt, clinical forensic psychologist. Let`s have Cheryl and Erin Runnion up with me, please.
Cheryl, I recall Erin Runnion making a public plea for the return of her daughter, 5-year-old Samantha. I still remember it to this day. What could psychologically be keeping Isabel`s parents from doing the same?
CHERYL ARUTT, PSY.D., CLINICAL & FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, Nancy, I imagine that this family is absolutely devastated. And I could imagine that they may just not feel as strong as Samantha`s mom was here in being able to do that. My hope is that they will do that, because it is very powerful, and if they have it framed for them in the way that Erin just did, that this is your chance to be the voice for your daughter and to be able to do something for her to address the helplessness that they must feel, I think that that could make the difference for them to do it.
GRACE: And Erin, a lot of people are putting the parents under a microscope right now. But that is SOP, standard operating procedure, when a child goes missing. The reality is, you could do everything right, as you did.
I recall the circumstances around Samantha`s disappearance. And bad things can still happen, Erin.
ERIN RUNNION, 5-YEAR-OLD DAUGHTER SAMANTHA WAS ABDUCTED AND MURDERED: Yes. Yes. And I think that -- again, it`s communication between the law enforcement agency and the family. You know, they were -- were really good with us. They told us that they had to start with that inner circle, because 90 percent of the time, the perpetrator is somebody who knows the family. So telling us that made us very cooperative.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There was some trash pickups that occurred here prior to us getting the scene secured and locked down. So we don`t know what could have been thrown away, what evidence could be in the trash. We do have personnel out there now going through the trash that we removed from this neighborhood.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: We haven`t heard whether the door was locked or unlocked. But we do know that police are checking any point at which someone could have entered that home.
PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER, AUTHOR OF "ONLY THE TRUTH": It`s good to find out who has been near the house before, if there`s any workmen that have been there recently or any unusual people or even friends have come into the home where they know where that girl`s bedroom is and know how they could sneak around into that house.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Six-year-old who vanished from her bedroom in Tucson, Arizona.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: By air and by ground. Checking each and every car that went in and out of this east side neighborhood.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When her father went in to wake her up so that they could start their day, found she was not in her room at that point.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Family, friends and co-workers continue to be vigilant doing whatever they can to help the family.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have a window that was opened and the screen removed. We`re labeling it as suspicious circumstances and a possible abduction.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: More questions than answers at this hour in the search for 6- year-old Isabel apparently taken out of her bedroom window. A window open, the screen removed from the window.
Tip line, 520-882-7463. Right now, cops refusing to describe what a dog hit on in the house, reluctant, refusing to talk about who put the child to bed, whether the mom checked on the little girl before she went to work the next morning. I`ve got even more questions.
Out to you, Paul Birmingham, KNST. Was she at school on Friday? I understand she goes to Academy of Tucson Elementary.
PAUL BIRMINGHAM, NEWS DIRECTOR, KNST, 790AM/97.1 FM (via phone): That`s right. She goes to Academy of Tucson Elementary School, which is a charter school. At this point, police are not saying whether or fact -- whether in fact she was at school on Friday. That`s a question that`s been asked. Again, they are keeping a number of things very close to the vest in this investigation. That is one of the things that they`re not able to provide an answer for that we would love to know.
GRACE: OK. That is not giving me a good feeling.
Kelly, Pilar, Kirby, it`s hard to read the tea leaves. We could be completely off track, but to not release that she was in school as normal on Friday, that`s extremely unusual. Don`t you think so, Kirby? I mean, come on, before you were a defense lawyer, you and I tried cases down the hall from each other, prosecuting.
Something -- I don`t understand why they`re holding back simple details, like why -- was she in school, who put her to bed, who checked on her first thing in the morning? I don`t get it, Kirby.
CLEMENTS: No, that`s a huge red flag, because quite honestly, it almost sounds like they`re insinuating that something happened to the child on that Friday to keep her from going to school and that this whole event is staged on Saturday morning. It gives you that impression. Now I can`t say that`s a fact --
GRACE: It does. And we absolutely have no evidence of that, Pilar. But by not releasing a simple fact like that, I mean, every school -- every schoolmate has got to know whether she was in school or not, Pilar.
PRINZ: Nancy, I think it would be pretty easy information for us to find out outside the police. I agree it does seem very strange. And especially when you look at the statistics, when you look at the total number of total child abductions in our country, it`s such a small percentage are nonfamily.
GRACE: And Kelly Saindon, that is a lot easier -- it sounds easier than it is. We`ve called the elementary school, they won`t tell us, cops won`t tell us.
Very quickly, Jean Casarez, what about the family cars?
CASAREZ: The family cars. Well, we believe that they`ve been searched. We believe they are part of the law enforcement investigation. But back to the school for a minute.
Kyron Horman, remember in Portland, Oregon? There was an issue.
GRACE: Yes.
CASAREZ: He went to school, was taken out of school.
GRACE: Kyron.
CASAREZ: Kyron Horman.
GRACE: Yes.
CASAREZ: There is more to this story, Nancy.
GRACE: You know what, Jane, you`re right. I was racking my brain, trying to remember when was it, the child didn`t report to school, and it was Kyron Horman, you`re absolutely right.
Out to the lines, Sue in Georgia. What`s your question, Sue?
SUE, CALLER FROM GEORGIA: Yes, now I have a question about the family dog.
GRACE: Right.
SUE: What kind were they? Were they Dobermans or German Shepherds or watchdogs?
GRACE: OK.
SUE: Three things --
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: What do we know, Ellie Jostad?
JOSTAD: Yes, Nancy, we don`t know right now what type of dogs those were. We have talked to neighbors who said they have two dogs. We`re trying to follow up with them and find out what kind. But Nancy, another thing, police said that they are holding back is whether or not the family or neighbors reported hearing dogs barking that night.
GRACE: Good point. Good point, Ellie.
Beth in Missouri, what`s your question?
BETH, CALLER FROM MISSOURI: Yes. I love your show. Thank you for having me on.
GRACE: Thank you.
BETH: Did the father take a lie detector test? And were the dogs inside or outside, or were they locked up in the cage?
GRACE: Good question. Paul Birmingham, do we know if the dogs were inside dogs or outside and has anybody taken a lie detector?
BIRMINGHAM: At this point, again, the million-dollar questions. They`re not being answered by Tucson police, what types of dogs, how many, whether they barked that night or not. And also the question about the polygraph. Again, these are things that at this point they`re simply not saying to us.
GRACE: Well, another thing. To you, CW. It may be too soon, or is it too soon for them to take a polygraph? I mean if my child was missing, I don`t even know what I would do. I guess I would be running up and down the street like a crazy person. I can`t -- maybe they can`t get their mind straight to go to the cops and take a poly.
CW JENSEN, RETIRED PORTLAND POLICE CAPTAIN: Well, as an investigation starts out, it isn`t just one line going down the sand. It spreads out, so you have the searches of the house, the landfill. I would have those parents by now -- I would have boxed both of them. I would have polygraphed both of them.
It`s very important. It`s not, you know, admissible in court. But if somebody tubes a polygraph -- if something happened to the twins and I polygraphed you, you would be fine. But I`ve had parents responsible for the death of their child and they failed the polygraph when you`re speaking about Kyron Horman, remember, the stepmother, who is the prime suspect, failed that polygraph bad.
GRACE: You know what, you`re right. You`re right.
Tammy in Maryland. Hi, Tammy. What`s your question?
TAMMY, CALLER FROM MARYLAND: Hi, Nancy. I`d like to tell you, we all love you here in Baltimore, Maryland.
GRACE: Thank you.
TAMMY: And God bless you and your family. Thank you. My question is, the family dogs, I would think that if they barked, they would have woke the family up. Number one. And if they didn`t, that would be a red flag that it`s someone --
GRACE: They didn`t.
TAMMY: -- the dogs are familiar with. Right. So --
GRACE: Sources have told us they did not, Tammy in Maryland.
TAMMY: They didn`t. OK, so my thing is, have they questioned any of the other family members at this time?
GRACE: OK, Jean Casarez, what do we know?
CASAREZ: They are keeping the investigation close to the vest. They`re calling everyone a person of interest.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: A lot of you have called and asked about the dog. Let`s see the dog shot that we`ve got. If this is one of the dogs, I guarantee you that`s an inside dog.
Jean Casarez, you`re familiar with this neck of the woods. Dogs typically not outside there. But this is not a rural area.
CASAREZ: No. I wouldn`t think that a little dog like that would be kept in the outside, but even so, wouldn`t it bark even more if there was an intruder at the window that was abducting little Isabel? But this is a dog that`s a yappy dog, I mean that`s a dog that`s going to bark.
GRACE: Everyone, cops are asking for this tip line to be publicized, 520-882-7463. There is a reward in the search for little Isabel. Please, help us.
Let`s stop and remember Army 1st Lieutenant Mohsin Naqvi, 26, Newburgh, New York, killed Afghanistan. Also served Iraq. Bronze Star, Purple Heart. A masters in computer science. Translator in Afghanistan. Quickly rose through the ranks. Married days before deployment. Leaves behind parents, Nazar and Taseen, brother, Husan, sister, Tasmim, widow, Rosina.
Mohsin Naqvi, American hero.
Thanks to our guests but especially to you. Happy birthday to South Carolina friend, Roberta Ross. Isn`t she beautiful? A hundred years old. Secret? Faithful living. Sixteen children, 20 grands, 46 greats, and 37 great-greats.
Happy birthday, New York friend, Susan. Loves flowers and walking her dogs.
Tonight, rave reviews for novel "Seven Ways to Die" by the late "New York Times" bestselling author Bill Diehl. Diehl wrote 400 pages of his final novel before his death. Before a friend and author asked to be completed it. A suspenseful whodunit about a serial killer and a pompous crime writer.
Diehl leaves behind his beautiful widow, Virginia Gunn.
This week National Crime Victims Week. Tonight we remember Christopher Newsome and Channon Christian. A young couple carjacked, kidnapped, murdered, Knoxville. Their killers` convictions, thrown out, all granted new trials.
We want justice.
See you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern, and until then, good night, friend.
END
