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Nancy Grace
Man Has 30 Children by 11 Women; Man Stuffs Tot in Washing Machine
Aired May 23, 2012 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, live, Tennessee. A 32-year-old with 30 children -- you heard me right, 30 children -- by 11 different mothers, that we know of. And by his own admission, he fathers four children in one year twice.
Bombshell tonight. He`s not paying child support. His defense? He knows all his children`s names and birthdays. He says it all just happened. The Knoxville, Tennessee, female population is only safe if he is behind bars!
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you intend to keep having children?
DESMOND HATCHETT, SAYS HE HAS 30 CHILDREN: No.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You`re done?
HATCHETT: Yes, I`m done.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Desmond Hatchett, who has become kind of a local celebrity of sorts, says he`s working for minimum wage and can`t make all of his child support payments.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hatchett, who reportedly has a minimum wage job, is legally obligated to give only half of his paycheck to the 11 women who have mothered of his children.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He`s required to (INAUDIBLE) 50 percent of his wages. The problem is, he only makes minimum wage.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hatchett had 21 kids and vowed he was done.
HATCHETT: I didn`t intend to have this many. It just happened.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A message for Desmond. Man, keep it in your pants!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight, live, Camden. They put their 2-year-old toddler boy in the industrial laundromat washing machine and slammed the door. We have the video. Tonight, where is Mommy and Daddy?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Surveillance video that will make you gasp.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You see him there. Stuffs him in, shuts the door. But then he realizes the washer is on and that little boy is trapped.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: For more than a minute, you see the child flipping around inside the machine as it starts filling with water.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Who puts a child in the washing machine, like, not even for a joke, not even for play, not in a dryer, not no...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Worker runs from the back, turns off the power luckily just in time.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So this baby-sitter, you`re familiar with her, responsible person?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Most of the time, she is.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Couldn`t believe their eyes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They should never have did that. They should never have put the baby in there.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nobody should ever put a child in the washing machine.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They`re lucky he didn`t drown, he didn`t die. Like, they`re very lucky he`s still here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Bombshell tonight. Live, Tennessee. A 33-year-old with 30 children -- yes, 30 children by 11 mothers, that we know of. Well, he just says it all happened, and now he`s not paying child support. The Knoxville, Tennessee, female population is only safe if he is behind bars.
We are taking your calls. Let`s go live to Knoxville, to Tonya Stoutt-Brown with WNOX. Tonya, thank you for being with us. It`s my understanding that by his own admission, he had four children in one year twice.
TONYA STOUTT-BROWN, WNOX (via telephone): That`s right. You know, the math in this case is absolutely staggering, 30 children by 11 mothers. For the court system, 24 have legally been confirmed to be his by paternity tests.
GRACE: And then we`ve got another woman stating she has a child with him. I think this is the woman he married behind bars. But according to the Tennessee Department of Human Services, quote, "He has 30 children by 11 different mothers," says the Human Services spokesperson.
To Dave Mack, talk show host, joining us from WAAX. What do you know, Dave?
DAVE MACK, WAAX: I know this guy, even when he`s behind bars, Nancy, is still possible to get out, and apparently, he`s really good with women. You know, when you look at the number of kids this guy`s had and the number of times he`s been in jail since 2001, I don`t know how it`s possible or how these women even put up with it. It`s amazing to me.
GRACE: You know, what I don`t understand also is the public made such a huge brouhaha over "octomom," as they should have. We now understand "octomom" is filing for bankruptcy. There`s no way she can support the eight children plus the others, 14 in all, to my understanding.
So back out to you, Dave Mack. The reality is, here`s a man with reportedly 30 children. He`s currently not paying child support. He seems to get a bonus for bad behavior. He had to go to jail, so everything is put on hold while he`s behind bars. But at least he`s not getting anybody pregnant right now, Dave Mack.
MACK: Well, at least let`s hope, Nancy. I think if we go back and retrace some of this, he probably is. I mean, there`s 20 years worth of women being pregnant here to have 30 kids. Now, you`ve got this guy, that he`s behind bars right now. But when he does get out, they end up putting him behind bars because he can`t pay child support.
He`s got no education, minimum wage job, when he shows up for work, when he`s not in jail. So I don`t know if anybody is safe where this guy is concerned.
GRACE: Well, I want to now unleash the lawyers. Joining me, Sue moss, family law attorney, New York, Renee Rockwell, defense attorney, Atlanta, along with Kirby Clements, former prosecutor turned defense attorney.
Sue Moss, I will never forget a case I prosecuted for repeat serial child molestation. He had 30 children. I don`t know how many mothers were involved. And he had been molesting all of them.
In this case, that`s not the allegation. In this case, you`ve got a father with reportedly 30 children, and he`s not paying child support. He`s been thrown in jail before for not paying child support. But he keeps having children over and over. And I`m quoting state authorities that state, "We wish we could stop him from having children, but in this country, that`s impossible."
SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: Absolutely. If any judge reduces his child support, they should get all 30 children in one room and say, OK, kids, we`re going to take a break from eating! For you little kids who are still breast-feeding, you get to take a break from diapers. So just hold it in for a few years while your father gets back on his feet!
If he made the decision to lay down with these women, if he had all of these children, he is responsible! Child -- if child support you beat, your kids don`t get to eat! That`s the reality!
Now, if a mother -- if a mother leaves her child alone because she`s going out to work and can`t afford day care, we bring criminal charges. We`ve got to lay the same standards to these men. He should not have any relief. He needs to work. He needs to support these kids, and then maybe he`ll think the next time when he makes another!
GRACE: To Kirby Clements. I recall when you and I prosecuted together before you became a defense attorney, everybody in our office had to do rotations. You had to go to appeals. You had to go to juvenile. You had to do indictments.
Did you ever have anything to do with child support recovery, Kirby?
KIRBY CLEMENTS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I actually bypassed child support recovery.
GRACE: Oh!
CLEMENTS: But I did prosecute people for child abandonment, especially in one of my jobs before I came to work with you in the DA`s office. But in those cases, that`s where the father was paying nothing at all, I mean, did nothing, no support, no clothes, no food.
In this case, this guy makes minimum wage. I mean, so, you know, if you look at, even when he`s working, when he`s able to produce, there`s still not going to be support for these kids.
GRACE: No, no! No, no! Kirby! Kirby!
CLEMENTS: Yes?
GRACE: No! He doesn`t have to have that minimum wage job. And if he does choose a minimum wage job, he can have more than one job. I think...
CLEMENTS: He`s an ex-con. Who`s going to hire this guy?
GRACE: I imagine everybody on this panel at some time or another has worked more than one job.
And you know, to you, Renee Rockwell. The state is saying they believe there are 30 children by 11 mothers. That`s what we know of, Renee.
RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: OK, well, Nancy, that is not illegal, to have a number of children.
GRACE: Well, it should be!
ROCKWELL: He`s not going to be able to get -- he should -- he`s not going to be able to get a good job. His rap sheet is 20 pages long.
GRACE: Whose fault is that? Is that my fault?
ROCKWELL: But Nancy, it`s not your fault, but why would you advocate keeping him in prison just so he can`t have any more children?
GRACE: OK...
ROCKWELL: It`s not only his fault.
GRACE: ... I`m not advocating that. I`m advocating him getting out of jail, getting a job, getting a second and third job and getting a vasectomy. That`s what I`m advocating right now.
ROCKWELL: OK. Maybe you can exchange that in exchange for time for failing to pay child support, but you can`t make him have that vasectomy, Nancy.
GRACE: Out to the lines. Jessica in Tennessee. Hi, Jessica. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I was actually wondering why there isn`t a law against (SIC) sterilization of men like him, or women for that matter, that have children they can`t take care of.
GRACE: Jessica, Jessica, Jessica, why can`t you sit on the U.S. Supreme Court? In my mind, judges sitting in their ivory tower have no idea what`s happening in the real world. They have no idea about children who don`t have enough to eat, children who literally don`t have shoes, children who don`t have a coat in the winter.
That is the reality that I dealt with when I was a prosecutor. That is what I saw every single day of my life, children that had no support. And here`s a guy that is in a revolving door, keep going `round and `round and :round. Every time he comes out of the jail, he gets at least one other woman pregnant before he gets thrown back in jail for failure to pay child support.
And I don`t see anything -- out to you, C.W. Jensen, retired Portland police captain. I see nothing to suggest that if he gets out that he will get a job and that he will pay child support.
But one thing I know. When you don`t know a horse, C.W., look at his track record. This I can tell you, he will get somebody else pregnant.
C.W. JENSEN, RETIRED PORTLAND POLICE CAPTAIN: Well, what I found amazing, Nancy, was that -- I mean, the 30 children is amazing, but the fact is, there`s not 30 mothers. There were actually mothers who had more than one child with this guy.
And so what -- I mean, I`m a little bit concerned because when I would go out on child abuse calls and take children and stuff, I mean, a lot of times, both parents were dysfunctional. And I`m afraid we`ve got 12 people here, 11 mothers and one dysfunctional dad, that think about themselves before their children.
GRACE: I can only imagine the conditions under which these children are living.
Joining me right now, special guest out of Santa Ana, California, John Taddie, Dr. Taddie. He is a paternity expert and the director of LB Genetics. Let me ask you a question, John. Number one, thank you for being with us. How simple is it to perform a paternity test?
DR. JOHN TADDIE, DNA/PATERNITY EXPERT (via telephone): Well, thank you very much for having me on your show, Nancy. To answer your question, it`s extremely simple to do that. There`s a couple of options available to people nowadays. You can do a home test kit or you can do a test that is legally defensible, if you will. But basically, a paternity test from the patient`s or client`s standpoint just involves, you know, collecting -- rubbing four, you know, Q-tips on the inside of their cheek for about 10 seconds...
GRACE: You mean a buccal or a buccal swab?
TADDIE: A buccal swab, yes,"buccal" referring to the type of cell on the inside of the cheek. You rub the inside of the cheek for 10 seconds, you pop it into an envelope, and that`s the sample collection.
The laboratory receives those samples, creates DNA profiles from those that are basically the same types of DNA profiles that crime labs do, but we use them to look at relationships with the individual. But it takes a couple of days to get results back, and it`s essentially, except for unusual circumstances, conclusive.
GRACE: Right. I want to go to Bonnie Druker. Bonnie, a lot has been made, for instance, of "octomom" and her ongoing battles to raise her 14 children, having eight children at once. Then, of course, we hear about the Duggars (ph), who have 20-plus children -- I think they do, I think I`ve lost count -- and are still going.
There`s a series of celebrated families that have many, many children. You had "Kate Plus 8," the list goes on. Those cases are celebrated. But in those cases, Bonnie Druker, the children are being supported. And I don`t mean these children have to live like kings and queens, but there is no way -- I mean, he can`t even -- he`s not even paying for a box of Pampers a month. So how are these children actually living, Bonnie?
BONNIE DRUKER, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, they`re not getting any money from their Daddy. And we keep talking about, Will this guy get out of jail and have more kids? Nancy, we talked to his wife, and she told me -- now, I don`t mean to judge. I`m just a TV producer on this show. But she told me they want to have another two kids. So that`s what`s going on here, Nancy.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This one guy has affected 11 lives -- 11 women`s lives have been profoundly affected by him.
HATCHETT: I didn`t intend to have this many. It just happened.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It just happened? How do you just happen to...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... his responsibility, and yet he`s smiling and carrying on.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you intend to keep having children?
HATCHETT: No.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You`re done?
HATCHETT: Yes, I`m done. Hopefully, I`m done.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It just is incredible that someone can be so shockingly, you know, reckless about what they do in their conduct. The children...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And it`s really kind of ridiculous.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... as he`s liable for all of those kids.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I consider people like that sort of a menace to society.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls. Live to Tennessee. A 30-year-old man has 30 children by 11 different mothers, that we know of, and is not paying child support. It`s been a revolving door. He goes in and out and in and out on child support non-payment. And now he`s planning to have more children.
Out to the lines. Shana, Oklahoma. Hi, Shana. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, what kind of woman, like, has kids with this guy? Eleven different women?
GRACE: You know what? I`m going to throw that to a shrink, Shana in Oklahoma, because I don`t have an answer for you on that one. I would have to say they`re legally insane.
To Dr. Ramani Durvasula. Doctor Durvasula, explain to me a woman`s thinking. I mean, what does this guy have?
RAMANI DURVASULA, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: I am guessing this guy is actually incredibly charming. He`s a sociopath. He doesn`t think about the ramifications of what he does. He doesn`t care. He feels no remorse for his actions.
But these guys tend to be really, really charming, and my guess is he`s able to draw them in because at the end of the day, yes, he was irresponsible, but ladies, if you`re not going to protect yourself and have sex with someone, there could be a kid at the other end. These women made a choice to sleep with this man. My guess is they got pulled in and he sold them a bad bill of goods.
GRACE: Well, one thing I don`t understand -- back to you, Dave Mack, talk show host with WAAX. This type of family is actually celebrated. I don`t mean an integrated family in that you`ve got different mothers, you`ve got divorces, you`ve got different fathers, blah, blah. That is commonplace in our American society today. Most families are that way.
But what I`m talking about is multiples, when you have over 10 children. That`s being celebrated on TV and in shows like, for instance, the Duggars, you`ve got "octomom," "Kate Plus 8." And it goes all the way back to "The Brady Bunch." But in those cases, those children were being supported.
MACK: Right. They were being supported by -- in the case of the Duggars, that`s a family that is just -- you know, they are a nuclear family, you know, Mom, Dad and all their kids. When you look at "Jon and Kate Plus 8," when they began, they were a nuclear family, as well.
This is totally different. This is a serial birther. And this guy just can`t keep it in his pants, and the girls can`t stay away from him because they apparently know about this cat. You know, each one of these women knows, including his wife, who now says she wants to have two more with him -- they all know what`s going on here. They all know that he can actually field both ends of a football field and still have kids on the bench! This is insanity!
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you intend to keep having children?
HATCHETT: No.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You`re done?
HATCHETT: Yes, I`m done. Hopefully, I`m done.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They range in age from toddlers to a 14-year-old. And it gets even crazier. Listen to this now. He fathered four children in the same year twice.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What made you decide that?
HATCHETT: I didn`t intend to have this many. It just happened.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The real victims here are the children. Who are these women that are still sleeping with him, knowing that he, you know, has all these kids?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: I want to go back to the original question as to why the women continue to have children with him.
And back to you, Bonnie Druker. What was your reaction when you heard the one lady say she`s planning on having two more, that they are planning to have two more children?
I mean, Liz, don`t you have sound of him on air saying, "I`m done," I`m not having any more children? OK, she`s saying, yes, she does, and I`m going to play that right now. So Bonnie, do I believe him or you?
DRUKER: No, I was completely stunned out of my mind, but she said they are going to have two more children. She says that she loves him. She knew about all the other kids, but she loves him and you take someone for the good or the bad. She`s married to him, and she`s looking forward to him getting out of jail.
GRACE: Is this the one he married behind bars?
DRUKER: Yes.
GRACE: OK, take a listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you intend to keep having children?
HATCHETT: No.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You`re done?
HATCHETT: I`m done. Hopefully, I`m done.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What made you decide that?
HATCHETT: I didn`t intend to have this many. It just happened.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: It just happened. That was in 2009. Since then, I don`t know how many children he has created since that one sound bite.
I want to go to Dr. Gwenn O`Keeffe, physician and founder of Pediatricsnow.com. A lot of people are calling for castration. Under our Constitution, that is impossible, chemical or medical, taking pills, castration or shots, castration -- you can get out of that by not taking the medication.
How do you believe, after your practice, Dr. Gwenn, these children are living?
DR. GWENN O`KEEFFE, PHYSICIAN: I can`t imagine they`re living very well, Nancy. First off, they don`t have two parents raising them. They`re financially not having the resources to take care of them. And just developmentally...
GRACE: They`re living in squalor. They have...
O`KEEFFE: They are.
GRACE: ... nothing.
O`KEEFFE: And there`s no developmental soundness around them, no real love and nurturing. It`s just not a good situation.
GRACE: And in your expertise, Dr. Gwenn -- with me, Dr. Gwenn O`Keeffe, Pediatricsnow.com -- in this situation, how likely is it that these children will be more subject to infant mortality, to illnesses, to all sorts of dangerous situations?
O`KEEFFE: Oh, it`s incredibly high, Nancy. I mean, just getting through infancy is going to be incredibly rough for these kids, whether they get immunizations, proper health care. It`s -- it`s risky for them.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: For more than a minute you see the child flipping around inside the machine as it starts filling with water.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: It was a prank that went awry.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The door latched and locked with the child inside for over a minute.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: A quick thinking store employee raced to the machine, shoved away the tables and shut off its circuit breaker.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Boy emerged without serious injuries.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They`re lucky he didn`t drown, he didn`t die.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back. We are taking your calls. Adults put their 2-year- old toddler boy in an industrial Laundromat washer and slam the door. At this hour we don`t know where those parents are. The boy did survive, barely.
We are taking your calls. Out to Stacy Proebstle, joining us from Town Square Media.
Stacy, what happened?
STACY PROEBSTLE, TOWN SQUARE MEDIA: Well, Nancy, apparently as part of a peek-a-boo game he shut the door which auto locked and started filling up with soap and water with the child inside as seen on the YouTube video. Frantic, pulling on the door for a few seconds as the boy continues to spin in the machine, then ran to get help.
GRACE: You know what, I don`t understand, I`m going to unleash the lawyers right off the top.
Sue Moss, Renee Rockwell, Kirby Clements, I don`t see how this can be a prank. That`s like pushing your kid out in front of a car and going, oh, just kidding, Sue Moss.
SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY & CHILD ADVOCATE: It`s just like that case where they put the child in the microwave and started cooking her. It`s just like that case where they put another child in an oven.
You see, people just don`t make one bad decision. Oftentimes when parents make decisions this horrific, this abusive, this neglectful, they are making other decisions. I mean, you can`t just look at this and say, oh, what, were they too cheap to dry-clean the child? It`s not funny. What really needs to happen is the authorities needed to go find these people and do a full investigation to see what other stupid human tricks they`ve done.
GRACE: You know, there have been so many other cases. I heard male chuckling, which I can attribute to you, Kirby, you being a father. Take a listen to this. Tiffany Hall put her children in the washing machine. Joshua Malden put his 2-month-old baby girl in the microwave, turned it on. Chance Kracke put the 7-month-old in the freezer. Sharlyn Singh put 11- month-old girl in the oven during a breakup with the child`s father.
Lindsey Fiddler fit his baby girl in the washing machine on full wash cycle. She was 10-days-old. Elizabeth Otte put a month old baby boy in the microwave and cooked him to death. Kenneth Pierott suffocated a child by putting him in the oven.
We have children being taped to the wall, masking taped to the wall with their mouth shut, masking tape over their nose. It reminds me in a way of parents using children like stupid pet tricks.
KIRBY CLEMENTS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, that may be so, Nancy, but those cases you gave and this one are totally different. Those were vendetta cases by evil people. You can clearly see that this was a mistake, and who thought that the washing machine would turn on? It doesn`t turn on until you put money in there if you ever use the (INAUDIBLE) one of those machines.
GRACE: They had money in there.
(CROSSTALK)
CLEMENTS: So this was a total accident.
GRACE: Hello. They had money in there.
CLEMENTS: No. No. But you have to push it and start it, Nancy. I`ve actually had to use a Laundromat washer when I was in college, and I`m telling you, you`ve got to put the money in, then you`ve got to press to start it.
GRACE: Kirby. Kirby.
CLEMENTS: This thing was a complete accident.
GRACE: Kirby.
CLEMENTS: An innocent game. Come on. Slow it down, people.
GRACE: Kirby.
CLEMENTS: Slow it down.
GRACE: We`ve all used -- we`ve all, I assume, on this panel, have all used Laundromats. I know how they work.
CLEMENTS: OK.
GRACE: He put his child in -- in fact, it`s more difficult to get one of those machines to start than the one you have at home because you do have to insert money.
Sue Moss, isn`t that right? So he had to go through more to get this kid in the washer than we have to do to put our clothes in the washing machine at home. And did you notice how Kirby Clements started off, yes, well, all those cases are bad, but -- what`s the but? That this child managed to live, Sue Moss? What`s the difference?
MOSS: There`s no difference. But, you know, if this was just a prank, they wouldn`t have shut the door. This was more than a prank. Something was going on in this guy`s head when he shut that door because he knew or he should have known that harm was going to come to this child.
GRACE: Renee?
RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, one thing we know is that that child was put in the dryer first, they were playing peek-a-boo with the child in the dryer, then they put the child in the washing machine. We`re not going to be able to legislate intelligence, Nancy. I think this was a prank. And if the authorities were interested enough, remember, they ran to the hospital. They`d have stuck around and waited for him to come back and get his clothes. They weren`t interested enough.
GRACE: Renee.
ROCKWELL: So I`m not buying it that they think this is criminal.
GRACE: Have you ever heard of the fable "Peter and the Wolf"? Where he kept continually crying wolf until the wolf finally came and nobody believed him anymore? I believe since I have practiced against you back in the `80s you have always claimed your client, all felons, were stupid, were dumb. They didn`t know any better. That`s not a defense under the law, Renee.
ROCKWELL: Nancy --
GRACE: All right. Just -- no.
ROCKWELL: OK.
GRACE: Sue, let`s hear the law, Sue. In this case --
CLEMENTS: Watch the video.
GRACE: To say it was a game doesn`t matter because what the law looks at, is that -- and I`m quoting the law as I have given it to many juries. The law presumes you intend the natural consequences of your act, i.e., I hold a gun to your head and pull the trigger and you`re dead. I went, oh, I only meant to scare him. You put your child in the Laundromat washer, you slam the door and it starts, what do you think is the natural consequence of putting a month-old child in an industrial washer, Susan?
MOSS: Putting a child in an industrial washer makes that industrial washer an inherently dangerous machine. And when they have the intent of putting the child in this inherently dangerous machine, that`s where you get the intent aspect of this crime. There was intent and it is a crime.
GRACE: Out to the lines. Kara in Florida, hi, Kara. what`s your question?
KARA, CALLER FROM FLORIDA: Hi, Nancy. I just want to say god bless you and your family and the producers --
GRACE: Thank you.
KARA: -- that have you on this show for victims.
GRACE: Thank you.
KARA: I just want to say the child, again, was one month old?
GRACE: I think in this particular case the child was 13 months old. Earlier I referred to a similar incident where the child was one month old, Kara.
KARA: Thirteen month old and this child is put in the washing machine by whom? What in the world was he thinking? Was it a punishment?
GRACE: Joining me right now, Alexis Weed.
Alexis, what do we know about possible motivation?
ALEXIS WEED, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Nancy, employees at the Laundromat have said that they think that they were trying to entertain the child, as was reported earlier. He was in the dryer earlier that day and also, Nancy, there`s a local ABC station, WPVI, that`s reporting that they talked with the boy`s grandmother. The grandmother reportedly said that the toddler was there at the Laundromat with his babysitter and the babysitter`s male companion.
Nancy, according to WPVI, this male companion, who`s unknown to the family, is the one who put the little boy in the washing machine.
GRACE: OK. Out to Tiffany Hebb -- Tiffany, are you with us?
TIFFANY HEBB, SON DIED IN WASHING MACHINE ACCIDENT: Yes, I am, hi.
GRACE: Hi, Miss Hebb. Tiffany is a special guest with us today. Her son Ollie passed away, he died in a washing machine accident.
Tiffany, what happened to Ollie?
HEBB: It`s very emotional to hear these stories of this man playing with this child in the washer because I was just doing my chores that day and -- with my son and we were doing the wash and he was helping me put the wash in. And we had finished doing the laundry and he went back in there, and I think -- I think what happened is he went back in to put some more clothes in, and he fell in, and he drowned, and it`s pretty horrific that someone puts their child in a washer.
But I had no idea that it was a danger. I know that there`s water in it, but I never could imagine that my child could have fallen in or even climbed up and fallen in. And it breaks my heart to hear that others are, you know, playing around with a washing machine when my son died in it. And I know -- I want to make awareness that it is a danger, and I -- obviously people don`t know that it is a danger.
GRACE: Tiffany, how old was Ollie when he passed away?
HEBB: Twenty-one months.
GRACE: I`m sorry. I couldn`t hear you. Repeat?
HEBB: Twenty-one months?
GRACE: So he was almost 2 years old.
HEBB: Yes.
GRACE: You know, I`ve seen the photos of Ollie. Such a beautiful, beautiful little boy.
HEBB: Yes. Yes.
GRACE: Tiffany, I have twins, they`re now aged 4, but because of them I have the washer -- it`s an upright so there`s nothing to fall into but still I guard it like it`s Alcatraz because I don`t want them around the washer and dryer, I`m so afraid of an accident, Tiffany.
HEBB: Yes. Mm-hmm.
GRACE: Tiffany, what do you make of this particular case?
HEBB: Of the man putting his son in the -- daughter in the dryer?
GRACE: Yes.
HEBB: I don`t know. I don`t think I would have ever -- I think everyone knows -- I thought everyone knew not to put them in the washer but -- or dryer just as a game because, yes, an accident can happen and it can lock and you can`t get it open. But, in my case, my son opened the washer himself and fell in.
And I just think we need to make people aware not to even have it be a game with the children because my son may have not seen it as a danger.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: So she was really babysitting your son?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: And what does she say she was doing that afternoon?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She never said anything about it. That`s the thing. I found out yesterday when I looked at the tape and she thought -- they thought I was going crazy. I`m like, I`m not going crazy because I know my son and I know you. She just kept saying it wasn`t her.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Surveillance video that will make you gasp.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: You see him there. Stuffs him in, shuts the door. But then he realizes the washer is on, and that little boy is trapped.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: For more than a minute you see the child flipping around inside the machine as it starts filling with water.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Who puts a child in the washing machine, like not even for a joke, not even for play, not in a dryer. Not no --
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Worker runs from the back, turns off the power luckily just in time.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: This babysitter, you`re familiar with her. Responsible person?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Most of the time she is.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Couldn`t believe their eyes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They should have never did that. They should have never put the baby in there.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Nobody should ever put a child in the washing machine.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They`re lucky he didn`t drown, he didn`t die. Like they`re very lucky he`s still here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: My question to you, Stacy Proebstle, joining me out of Trenton, with Town Square Media.
Stacy, where is the baby right now?
PROEBSTLE: Well, the baby is fine. He was at the hospital, treated for minor cuts and bruises, but Camden County prosecutors are still searching for the couple, the parents, mom and dad.
GRACE: But who is taking care of the baby?
PROEBSTLE: The parents still have care of the baby at this time, we know, Nancy.
GRACE: Oh, dear. Oh, dear. All right. Very quickly to Dr. Ramani Durvasula, clinical psychologist joining us. Weigh in on the thinking behind this because under the law you can`t commit a felony such as child endangerment or felony child abuse and then say, oh, it was a joke.
You can`t rob a bank and say that was a joke. You can`t shoot somebody and go, oh, that was a joke. No. So there should be no exception when you abuse a child and go, oh, that was a joke.
RAMANI DURVASULA, PH.D., CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Right. I mean, this might even fall more under the rubric of neglect. Like they just simply weren`t doing their duties, they weren`t providing adequate care by supervising, and I think Sue Moss nailed it. This is probably an indication of lots of other bad decisions they`re making. I really think that whether it`s neglect -- I don`t think it was malevolence but at the end of the day this kid may be in danger because I think they just keep making bad decisions.
GRACE: You know, back to the lawyers. Sue Moss, Renee Rockwell, Kirby Clements.
Do you recall the case where a homeless guy was run down? Her name was, as I recall, Shante Mallard. She was worried because she had run over somebody so she just kept him on the hood of her car and drove home and put him in the garage and just sat inside wringing her hands while he died on her hood.
At a certain point, intent is determined by the law. Not your theory that, oh, it was just a joke. When you take a child and put them in a washing machine and slam the door, how far is the joke and the prank defense going to go?
I mean, to you, Sue Moss, Dr. Durvasula`s theory that he needs some training, yes, he can get training, he can get parenting classes behind bars as far as I`m concerned.
MOSS: I think if you investigate what`s been going on in this household, you may see more similar type of decisions.
GRACE: Jason, on the lines, what`s your question, Jason?
JASON, CALLER: Yes. Where are the parents and do they just have the one child?
GRACE: Good question. I want to go to you, John Depietro, WPRO, do we know if there are other children in this scenario? This child is just 13 months old.
JOHN DEPIETRO, WPRO: I think that it is pathetic in this day and age. I mean, what is this? Some kind of child waterboarding? To have to explain to this nitwits, you don`t put a child in a washing machine and I think it is a form of neglect. And you don`t leave a child alone in a bath, and you don`t leave a child alone in a small swimming pool. The authorities need to investigate here because this is idiotic behavior that we shouldn`t have to explain but obviously we do.
GRACE: Well, another issue, I`m going to go right out to you, Millie in Oregon, is that we see them running -- let`s play that back. We see them running toward the machine to try to stop it, to try to have the power cut off, but the law says you may instantly regret the deed and that does not change the act. I may feel badly but I know what happened.
This is not a case where emotion makes the decision, Renee Rockwell. This is the case where the facts determine whether the case will be prosecuted.
ROCKWELL: Is that to me, Nancy, because if you look at that, they did not put the child in and put the money in and put soap in. It was a practical joke. It was idiotic, but in the scheme of things, Nancy, with all the things that are going on with children being abused today, I don`t think that it`s anything that resources will be used on. In the scheme of things.
GRACE: Out to the lines, Millie in Oregon. Hi, Millie. What`s your question?
MILLIE, CALLER FROM OREGON: Hi, Miss Grace. Actually it`s a comment.
GRACE: Yes, ma`am.
MILLIE: He`s an absolute moron, an idiot. Washing machines do not turn on by themselves automatically and they`re not run by robots, you know what I mean?
GRACE: Yes, I do.
MILLER: And I agree with (INAUDIBLE). The child should be removed. I don`t think they should be returned because, hey, next time they may not be able to save the child. I think people like this that do this to children don`t need children. Obviously they don`t want them or love them or can`t care for them, or whatever. I think maybe the government -- and I`m sorry, some may say I`m a communist but I`m not.
I think the (INAUDIBLE) should be fixed so they can never have another child. There are people out there that are extremely abusive. I know my daughter was an abusive parent and I raised her children. So I think they should be removed and put with someone that will care for them, love them, and not mistreat them and abuse them.
Abuse has gone on far too long. And I know in the bible, they say that -- what`s good will be bad and what`s bad will be considered good, no. Abusing children should never be considered good.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: I want to go back to Tiffany Hebb. Her son, Ollie, died in a washing machine accident. That was truly an accident. Ollie opened up the machine. It was not a joke, it was not a prank as in this case.
Tiffany, what do you make of the assertion that this was just a joke, putting their 13-month-old child in an industrial Laundromat washer?
HEBB: To hear and read about this story, it just -- it brings back the horror of that day that I felt because mine was an accident and my child fell in on his own. And it just -- it hurts me to hear that the parents actually put their child in there, not thinking that it could start. It`s just horrific to me because my son died that way. And it was an accident. And I just can`t imagine, I don`t know. It`s just horrific to me.
GRACE: I feel the same way. I remember how hard I struggled just to make John-David and Lucy, my twins, live. They were so premature. Lucy was two pounds. And the thought of putting her or John-David in the washer as a joke? You know, the other day, instinctively -- I`m going to go out to you, Renee. I saw John-David punching the buttons on the washer, no, the drier. And immediately, I grabbed him and just pulled him back. Like it was a rattlesnake.
It was an instinctive thing, Renee. I didn`t even think it through. And you still would believe a jury would say this was a prank here?
ROCKWELL: Well, Nancy, again, I don`t think that they realized that the washing machine was going to start. Now think about this. This is chess, not checkers. The next time that child is around a washing machine, that child -- you`ve taught that child how to -- how to jump in. That`s what the big picture is, Nancy.
GRACE: You know what, Renee, in this one case, I hope that you and Kirby are right. I hope they did not intend what happened.
Everyone, let`s stop and remember Marine Corporal Larry Harris, Jr., 24, Thornton, Colorado, killed, Afghanistan, on a second tour, Silver Star, Purple Heart, National Defense Service Medal, loved dancing, singing, football, leaves behind parents, Larry and Laura, brother, Kyle, widow, Stacia.
Larry Harris, Jr. American hero.
Thanks to our guests, but especially to you.
Everyone, stay tuned, Dr. Drew coming up next. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.
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