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Nancy Grace
Woman Murders Husband With Hammer
Aired June 04, 2012 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
RITA COSBY, GUEST HOST: And breaking news tonight out of Washington state, where a wife allegedly tells cops she bludgeoned her husband of 30 years with a hammer, striking him over and over in the head while she sleeps. And when he doesn`t die on the first round, she comes back to finish him off. The wife says she`s pushed to the brink after years of abuse.
In a stunning 911 call, she`s calm and cool as she reports her husband dead. But there`s one problem. It takes her two weeks to call 911. The entire time, her husband`s body is in the back bedroom, rotting. Is this self-defense of abuse after years and years of it or calculated murder? You`re not going to believe the 911 call. We have it and we`re going to play the audio for you tonight.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
911 OPERATOR: 911, how may I help you?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I need to report a murder.
911 OPERATOR: OK, what happened?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I murdered my husband.
911 OPERATOR: How did you do it?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A hammer.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: According to this court affidavit, Williams told detectives her husband had become increasingly abusive. She confronted him. She says he responded by striking her in the left eye.
911 OPERATOR: OK, what happened?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was (INAUDIBLE) gave me a black eye. And I got mad and took the hammer to his head while he was sleeping.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She went to the garage, retrieved a hammer, then returned to the bedroom, struck him three to four times in the head, leaving him to die. But he didn`t.
911 OPERATOR: What did you do with his body?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s in the back bedroom.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She says when she returned, she found him holding his head and still struggling to breathe and struck him again in the head with a hammer.
911 OPERATOR: Are you sure he`s dead?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
911 OPERATOR: When did it happen?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A couple weeks ago.
911 OPERATOR: What made you decide to call today?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t know.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: And good evening, everybody. I`m Rita Cosby in for Nancy Grace. Thank you for joining us tonight. A wife of 30 years tells 911 she beats her husband to death with a hammer after years of abuse. Was this self-defense or just cold-blooded murder?
Let`s go to Robyn Walensky, anchor and reporter with TheBlaze. Robyn, take us through this case from the beginning, please.
ROBYN WALENSKY, THEBLAZE.COM: Hey, Rita. Well, here`s what happens. This woman is off the wall! She is angry, and clearly, she had been thinking about this and snapped.
She goes and she grabs a hammer, which is inside the house. It was from their garage. She goes back into the bedroom, and she whacks her husband three to four times over the head. Then she leaves the house, believe it or not, goes to a convenience store, comes back. And to her eye, he, quote, unquote, "wasn`t dead," so she takes the hammer and whacks him again!
The most unbelievable portion of this story, Rita, is that she doesn`t call the cops for two weeks to report it. And he`s lying there dead in the bed for two weeks under a blood-soaked sheet.
COSBY: You know, Robyn, it is just baffling to me. Where does she get the hammer from? And obviously, as you point out, she claims she was abused, and then, what, she gets the hammer the next day?
WALENSKY: Yes, that`s the crazy thing. This -- apparently, she claims that the husband took his fist and hit her in the left eye on Mother`s Day. So the two of them -- they have two kids together. So it`s probably the Mother`s Day beating, allegedly, that set her off. The next morning is when she goes and she grabs the hammer that`s out in the garage and hits him over the head until he dies in the bed.
COSBY: Incredible. Casey McNerthney, let`s go to you. You`re a reporter with Seattlepi.com. Casey, there is this wild 911 call. And before I go to you, let`s play a little clip of this because when you listen to this woman`s voice -- again, as Robyn points out, two weeks later -- take a listen to how calm, how monotone I think she is.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
911 OPERATOR: 911, how may I help you?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I need to report a murder.
911 OPERATOR: OK, where at? OK, what happened?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I murdered my husband?
911 OPERATOR: When? When did it happen?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A couple of weeks ago.
911 OPERATOR: OK, what happened?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was beating (ph) me.
911 OPERATOR: So did anybody come out when that happened?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No.
911 OPERATOR: So he`s still there?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
COSBY: And Casey, there`s two snippets of it there. What`s your reaction when you hear this?
CASEY MCNERTHNEY, SEATTLEPI.COM (via telephone): That is, without question, one of the most chilling 911 calls I`ve ever heard in years of reporting on crime and breaking news. It`s amazing that she stays so calm. And the 911 dispatcher really deserves a lot of credit, too, for getting a lot of information out of her when she was on the phone. She was asked at one point -- Donna Williams was asked what made her call now after two weeks, and she said, I don`t know.
COSBY: That`s what I think is absolutely stunning. What precipitates it two weeks later? She also goes to the convenience store. Do we know anything about what she does to the convenience store in between, Casey?
MCNERTHNEY: We`re not sure what she was getting. That would be really fascinating to find out. I`m sure as the trial goes on, we`ll know more about that. But we know that she came back, and that`s when she found -- allegedly beat her husband, who was still holding his head and bleeding profusely, and that`s when police say she struck the final blows.
COSBY: Laura McVicker, reporter with "The Columbian," you were also in court for Donna Williams`s court appearance. I first want to ask you what you know in terms of cause of death, according to the cops. She claims -- and we even hear her in the tape calmly saying, Oh, I murdered him with the hammer. What are cops saying is cause of death because who knows, maybe it`s two different stories?
LAURA MCVICKER, "THE COLUMBIAN" (via telephone): Yes, well, the sheriff`s investigators here are saying that it was blunt force trauma, but they haven`t recovered the hammer. It`s just based on Donna Williams`s account herself of saying it was a hammer.
COSBY: And Robyn Walensky, I understand when the cops come, she`s sort of sitting out there, what, puffing a cigarette?
WALENSKY: Yes. Apparently, there is a report that the two of them were involved in cocaine and marijuana use. It sounds to me, when I hear that 911 tape, Rita -- and I listened to it a couple of times this morning -- she`s absolutely flatline in the tape, very nonchalant, very casual, as if somebody else did it. It`s almost an outer body (SIC) experience for her. The cops show up, and she`s sitting out there having a cigarette, like she has no care in the world.
COSBY: Yes, and the same person who goes to the convenience store, Robyn, I mean, it`s mind-boggling.
Let`s play a little bit more for all of you at home. This is more of this chilling 911 call.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
911 OPERATOR: OK, what`s your name?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Donna.
911 OPERATOR: OK, what`s your husband`s name? What`s your husband`s name?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mark.
911 OPERATOR: OK. And how did you do it?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A hammer.
911 OPERATOR: OK. Where`s the hammer now?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t know.
911 OPERATOR: OK. Is anyone else there with you?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No.
911 OPERATOR: OK, what did you do with his body?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s in the back bedroom.
911 OPERATOR: How old is he?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Fifty-four.
911 OPERATOR: Fifty-four, 5-4?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
COSBY: And Casey McNerthney -- you`re a reporter with Seattlepi.com. Casey, describe the scene. When cops finally get there soon after that chilling 911 call, describe the scene that they find in her bedroom.
MCNERTHNEY: Well, it was a very bloody scene, from what we`ve seen through police reports and also reports out of the Vancouver area. It was -- there was a lot of blood. There was -- the body was found in the back bedroom there. The sheets were pulled up over it.
And Donna Williams did have that black eye. And it just seemed like a really heinous scene. We haven`t heard from the police exactly what it smelled like, but I can imagine it was pretty awful.
COSBY: Yes, that`s what I was just thinking. Laura McVicker, did neighbors see anything unusual, smell anything unusual? You`ve got this guy rotting in a bed. We don`t even know if she was sleeping in the bed. Do we know?
MCVICKER: No, it hasn`t been revealed whether she was sleeping in the bed. Something the neighbors did say that they noted was that Mark Williams was known to have a very manicured lawn and that they had noticed how it was -- you know, his yard was becoming overgrown. So that was the only indicator from neighbors.
COSBY: Robyn Walensky, did neighbors say anything about abuse or hearing screaming or anything on Mother`s Day? I mean, when you do hear happy Mother`s Day, if you believe her story -- and again, obviously, it`s subject to a lot of scrutiny, certainly, based on her actions. But if you believe her story, he punched her and beat her on Mother`s Day.
WALENSKY: Yes. They didn`t hear any abuse, but there is a female neighbor that says that she acted like an abused woman. She apparently had a lot of marks, Rita, on her arms and bruises, and she didn`t want people to touch them or look at them.
So apparently, the abuse had been going on for some time. But to bludgeon your husband to death in bed with a hammer and then leave the body to rot -- why doesn`t she just leave him?
COSBY: Exactly! I mean, give me a break! And wait two weeks? There are so many huge questions here.
Let`s go to Marc Harrold, former officer with Atlanta PD, also an attorney. What`s your reaction to hearing this? As you just heard from Robyn, leave the guy you`ve got, you know, bludgeoned to death. You come back for more to finish him off, and blood-soaked bed, stains all over the wall. This is a very violent scene, right, Marc?
MARC HARROLD, FORMER OFFICER, ATLANTA PD: Yes, absolutely. This doesn`t sound like self-defense to me. It reminds me a lot of the Mary Winkler case back in Selmer, Tennessee, a number of years ago. But she ended up getting 18 months, from first degree murder down to some type of manslaughter, ended up getting custody of her kids back. So you know, self-defense might work here, but it`s certainly not self-defense in the classic sense when you leave and come back and finish him off.
COSBY: Yes, you wait until -- you know, she goes to bed. We`re all forgetting, you guys, what happened originally. Remember, if you believe her story, he beats her on the 13th. It`s the next day when she suddenly wakes up, looks at herself, apparently, in the mirror, and then she goes and kills him at that point, or tries to, then goes. So there`s a couple of different instances here, Robyn. It`s not just one lapse of sort of this, I stepped away and come back. There`s a couple signs of what looks like premeditation.
WALENSKY: Yes, and not only that, Rita, these two have been married for 30 years. So police really have to get to the bottom of it through the interviews. Has the abuse been going on from day one 30 years ago, or is this something new that was set off by possible lots of drug use?
COSBY: Absolutely. Casey McNerthney, reporter with Seattlepi, we are hearing about drug use sort of on both sides. But this was a very violent scene. This is a little woman. From what it understand, she`s what -- she`s a grandmother? She`s 90 pounds, right?
MCNERTHNEY: Yes, she a very small frame. And you know, one of the things that we were talking about earlier with that nasty scene, there was also blood splatters on the wall from the severe beating that just was a really awful deal, as long -- or as well as the blood-soaked sheets there.
We`ve also heard allegations, you`re right, of drug use by Mark Williams and also allegations that there was, you know, as we mentioned, a long history of domestic violence.
COSBY: Let`s go to the callers. Let`s go to Lynn from Tennessee, who`s on the line. Lynn, what`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Could this not be abuse because it sounds to me like she was married to a bully, and she acted nonchalant because she was relieved he was out of her life and he made her feel that she couldn`t go anywhere. I mean, men do that. At least, I was abused like that for 20 years. So you know, I understand how she feels.
COSBY: The only thing that I think hurts her tremendously -- and by the way, I think it`s important to note that there are a lot of abused people out there who do not get out of the situation and it is very difficult. So I do think that`s important, Lynn. You bring up a very good point.
But Marc Harrold, you`ve investigated a lot of these cases. Her behavior is so strange. She doesn`t call 911 right away and say, Hey, guess what? She seems to sleep with a dead body for two weeks.
HARROLD: Yes, absolutely. A lot of times, when you have a situation where somebody had -- you know, they`re trying to say it`s self-defense, even if it`s not imminent self-defense. Usually, you`d call right away. The two-week gap and especially leaving the scene and coming back really take this out of the classic self-defense situation. But yes, that`s what people always say. I know it`s hard to leave, but as far as a self-defense situation, if you can leave, it`s going to make it that much harder of a defense.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I murdered my husband.
911 OPERATOR: Was he beating you the day that you hit him?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The day before.
911 OPERATOR: What -- can you tell me what happened?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He started beating me, gave me a black eye. Then I got mad and took a hammer to his head while he was sleeping.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: And I`m Rita Cosby, in for Nancy Grace. So was it self- defense after years of abuse, or was it cold-blooded murder? Everybody, we`re taking your calls. Also, get in touch with us on Facebook. We want to hear from you.
Also, let`s go to Bill Lloyd. I want to ask you -- you`ve got a certified surgeon-pathologist background. She claims, Donna Ray Williams - - and again, she`s a 90-pound grandmother, which is sort of this weird thing -- and she bludgeons her husband to death, comes back for more and gives it to him again when she sees that he`s still breathing.
She has a black eye. And she has this two weeks later. She claimed to neighbors at one point that she got in some sort of car accident. She didn`t say, This is what my husband did. But here it is, two weeks later, and now she`s saying that her husband hit her two weeks earlier, left him there dead on the bed, the whole deal.
It`s two weeks, though, later. Would a black eye stay two weeks later? And can you see if that`s a punch or what happened?
DR. BILL LLOYD, SURGEON AND PATHOLOGIST: Sure. Two things to think about. Women who have been abused will often make excuses for their injuries, and that may account for the story about the car accident.
But a severe hemorrhage caused by a punch to the orbit, pounding to the eye, could leave sufficient blood that there`d still be a bruise seen at two weeks later. There may also be more significant injury there, Rita. She might have a fracture to one of the delicate orbital bones below the orbit. A simple X-ray will account for that, to attest to the severity of the injuries that she received.
COSBY: Robyn Walensky, anchor and reporter with TheBlaze, walk through -- were any reports -- the first thing I thought about, OK -- and I`ve covered, you know, unfortunately, a lot of cases where women have been abused. There are usually reports. There are usually neighbors who hear screaming. There`s usually cops called out, maybe heard screaming, or 911. Maybe the wife says, No, it didn`t happen, when the cops come, but they at least get called out to the scene or a medic gets called out. Somebody has a broken bone suddenly.
Was there any history in this case?
WALENSKY: Yes, you know, and of course, Rita, with O.J. Simpson, you think of Nicole Brown Simpson and the most infamous 911 call with O.J. bashing the car, et cetera, et cetera.
But you know, in this case -- the couple has two children. They were married for 30 years. And the children seem to report that there was violence between the two. At what level, we don`t know. But clearly, it escalated to the death of Daddy here. But the children do say that the mother of the two was more aggressive.
And so police are very busy investigating the children, who are grown, by the way, to see what, you know, was the dynamic between these two. But Rita, you know this. When you interject cocaine and marijuana into a volatile situation with two people that don`t get along, it can escalate very quickly.
COSBY: And Robyn, you talked about the family. It is interesting because one of the daughters come forward and said, yes, there was some abuse, and it was my mother who was abusing the husband.
Let`s take a listen. This is the daughter and what she had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RUKIYA DROSTE, DAUGHTER (via telephone): My first thought was, How could she do this to him? What could motivate her to do something so vicious and so ugly and wrong and evil?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Rukiya Droste says she and her brother were both abused, mostly by her mother. Now she is in shock and angry over what`s happened to a father she loved.
DROSTE: I sincerely hope that she spends the rest of her life in prison, dealing with the damage that she has caused.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: And Marc Harrold, when you hear that, it`s an interesting sort of spin on it, a little. You`re a former police officer. What`s your reaction now the kids are coming out and saying mom was the aggressor?
HARROLD: Well, obviously, to make this work, to make this any kind of self-defense, she has to be the victim. And most likely, you need some long-standing abuse and you`re going to need a record and a pattern of that.
But if the kids come forward and say she was generally the aggressor, it`s going to be really hard to make any kind of case for self-defense. I`m sure the police are going for -- you know, this is their main testimony. They want people that have spent a lot of time in the house. It`s not a new relationship. They`ve been 30 years. So the kids are important.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
911 OPERATOR: OK, what happened?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was beating me.
911 OPERATOR: What`s your husband`s name?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mark.
911 OPERATOR: OK. And how did you do it?
(END AUDIO CLIP)
COSBY: And I`m Rita Cosby, in for Nancy Grace. That was the 911 call with Donna Ray Williams, who admits and says that she killed her husband by beating him over the head with a hammer. So was it self-defense after years of abuse, or was it cold-blooded murder?
Everybody, we are taking your calls. Let`s go to Dorris from Alabama real quick. Dorris, what do you think?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Rita. How are you?
COSBY: I`m good.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just have one or two comments. I think she was psychologically and physically abused throughout their relationship, and she was too scared to come forward in the two weeks to, you know, say that she killed him. That`s what I believe.
COSBY: Well, Dorris, we`ll go right to the source. I appreciate your comments because let`s go right to the daughter. We`ve got Rukiya Droste, who is the daughter of Donna Ray Williams. She`s with us now here on the show.
Give us a sense, Rukiya, was your mother a victim of abuse?
DROSTE: I do not believe that my mother was a victim of abuse, no, not in the way that -- not in the way -- not in the way that people are saying or hinting towards or not in the way that she claims she was. Absolutely not.
COSBY: And how do you know that?
DROSTE: I -- you know, I lived at the house. There was a very long history of abuse in the home. There was always a lot of alcohol in the home, but honestly, you know, a lot of the alcohol consumption and overuse and abuse of the alcohol was mainly done by my mom.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
911 OPERATOR: 911, how may I help you?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I need to report a murder.
911 OPERATOR: OK. Where at? OK. What happened?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I murdered my husband.
911 OPERATOR: When? When did it happen?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A couple weeks ago.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
RITA COSBY, INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALIST, AUTHOR OF "QUIET HERO": And I`m Rita Cosby, in for Nancy Grace.
Tonight, that`s the voice of Donna Rae Williams, calling 911, calm, monotone. You hear it, saying, oh, I killed my husband, he`s been in my bed for two weeks. Sorry, it took so long for me to call you.
Absolutely an incredible story. We are taking your calls, everybody. She says she was abused for decades, so was this self-defense or was this cold- blooded murder? Did she just want to get rid of her husband?
Give us a call, everybody. Also, you can reach us on Facebook.
Let`s go to Maggie from Florida who`s on the line. Maggie, what`s your question?
MAGGIE, CALLER FROM FLORIDA: Hi, Rita. Thank you for taking my call. I heard the 911 operator ask a lot of questions. And my question is, can that be used by the prosecution against her?
COSBY: That`s a great question. Let`s go to Hugo Rodriguez, defense attorney, also a former FBI agent. Could that be used against her, those comments? It`s absolutely evidence, isn`t it?
HUGO RODRIGUEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY, FMR. FBI AGENT: It is, and it would come in, but, Rita, we`re discussing this through the lens of rational people. We don`t know the lifestyle, we don`t know what trauma she`s suffered. It`s classic battered women syndrome --
COSBY: In other words, in other words, Hugo, it`s OK to go kill your husband while he`s sleeping and let`s maybe call 911 two weeks later? That`s OK?
RODRIGUEZ: Sometimes. Sometimes. It`s really easy --
COSBY: Wow.
RODRIGUEZ: -- to criticize sitting behind the lens of a TV --
(CROSSTALK)
COSBY: Explain to me how it`s justified. And by the way, look, if she was, indeed, a battered woman, and we`ll find this out, hopefully, if indeed that was the case, I agree with you, it`s terrible if this happens. But the guy was sleeping and she still waits two weeks to call -- to call police and say this.
RODRIGUEZ: It`s easy for us to sit here behind the camera lens. We didn`t live in that household. We`ve got a 90-pound woman who says that she was - - listen to all your callers. There`s not one of your callers --
(CROSSTALK)
COSBY: But by the way --
RODRIGUEZ: One of your callers -- one of your callers who have not been sympathetic with the --
COSBY: Hey, Hugo. Hugo, there`s not one report, there`s not one report. And let`s go to someone who was in the house, Hugo. Because you`re sitting here saying, you know, you`ve been in the house.
(CROSSTALK)
COSBY: Let`s go back to her daughter again. Let`s go to Rukiya Droste.
Rukiya, you`re sitting here joining us. You`re here in (INAUDIBLE). You`re sitting here from the lens, on the other end, saying these things. You lived in the house, Rukiya. You`re the daughter. Tell us what was going on in that house.
RUKIYA DROSTE, DAUGHTER (via phone): Yes, ma`am. There was a lot of -- a lot of alcohol. My mother -- her disease in the last few years had progressed to the point where my family and myself had very often spoke of interventions and we -- my father had even urged her to go to detox program, which she did enter for three days, but then, you know, we kept saying, well, why aren`t you going into a 30-day program?
She lied and said, well, they didn`t say I needed to. I`m going to do, like, an outpatient program, which she never completed. My -- I truly believe that my mother was mentally disturbed. There`s no doubt in my mind that she did not have some underlying mental issues that had gone undiagnosed. We had all tried to help my mother so many times.
And I`ll also tell people that, you know, again people don`t understand, they don`t know, they weren`t there, but the two weeks during the time that my mother was -- that my father was in the house, I talked to my mother about four or five times. And, indeed, I actually talked to her on Wednesday, the 23rd. That was the last conversation we had.
I had actually called to talk to my dad and I, you know, needed to ask him a question about my car, and my mother proceeded to tell me that, oh, they had been out in the yard that day, everything was totally fine. You know, oh, we were out in the yard, you know, how dad likes to be in the yard, but he ran to the store and when he gets back, I`ll have him call you.
And she did not sound, those two weeks, like anything was wrong at all other than the fact that she sounded inebriated every single time, but that was extremely normal and pretty much the way my mom was, and everybody knew that, that was close to the family.
COSBY: Is it possible, Rukiya, and I have covered a lot of domestic abuse cases, and when I see it, it breaks my heart, because there is this syndrome, this battered woman syndrome, where they`re afraid to kind of come forward. Is it possible there was a whole side maybe you did not see, or do believe you saw pretty much what was going on? Do you feel you have a clear picture?
DROSTE: I feel that there may have been some things that no -- you know, obviously, I wasn`t in their relationship, but I`ll tell you what. I`m a 33-year-old woman, I have four children, I`m married. Before I had -- you know, before I got married to my husband, I was in an abusive relationship, and I was scared to death of that relationship, scared to death every single day.
And everybody that knew me knew it. There were markers, there were signs, I cannot -- I can`t sit here and lie and tell you that I saw signs that my mother was in immediate trouble and needed to get out of that relationship. What I did see was that my parents had a very toxic relationship, that they, you know, went at each other. That my mom a lot of the time was the aggressor. She very often would be the first one to yell and curse at my dad.
My dad was a very laid-back guy, and that`s just the truth. He didn`t raise his voice unless somebody really pushed him to that point. I was witness to arguments where, you know, from the next room, where I could hear my mom just yelling and cursing and my dad very low -- in a very low tone say, Donna, stop, you know, Donna, knock it off, Donna, that`s not true, Donna.
I mean, my take on things is that this is a woman who was -- who drank a lot, who I`ve never known her not to drink. And if you`re drinking that much, we`ve all been around people that have, you know, that are drunk and that, you know, start looking at things through that lens, and all of a sudden, you know, you`re looking at them funny and you`re saying something funny and you did this wrong and, you know, how dare you, that is -- that is exactly the way the arguments went between my parents. My dad was always much more level-headed and rational than my mom.
COSBY: You know, Rukiya, it must be heartbreaking for you. I can`t even imagine how you feel when you heard the news of what happened, what your mother did to your father.
DROSTE: It is absolutely heartbreaking and I`m devastated. I will never ever be the same, but as soon as I heard people saying things like, oh, maybe it`s true, you know, maybe she really -- just was a poor, abused woman who was battered for 30 years.
I took classes, I`ve been to counseling, I know what battered woman syndrome is. She did not suffer from that. My mother suffered from mental illness and an addiction problem. And it`s as simple as that.
COSBY: And you know what, as I also hear this 911 call, I want to play a little clip of it, what is so stunning to me, everybody, is how monotone and how calm, and as we just heard from Rukiya calling, you know, saying that her mother when she called, asked for her father, in the middle of this, her father`s dead, and she said, oh, he`s just out at the store, and calm.
And listen to the 911 call, it`s just -- it`s so stunning to me that she is just cool, calm, just, oh, I just murdered my husband, take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED DISPATCHER: OK. Are there any weapons in the home besides the hammer?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No.
UNIDENTIFIED DISPATCHER: What made you decide to call today?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t know.
UNIDENTIFIED DISPATCHER: OK. I`m going to stay on the line with you for just a few minutes here, OK? It will be -- that`s what they request that we do, OK? Are you sure that he is passed?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED DISPATCHER: OK. There`s no helping him?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Pardon me?
UNIDENTIFIED DISPATCHER: You`re sure he`s dead?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED DISPATCHER: How long had he been abusing you?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, about 30 years.
UNIDENTIFIED DISPATCHER: OK. And so, nobody else lives with you guys?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No.
UNIDENTIFIED DISPATCHER: And you have no idea where the hammer is?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No.
UNIDENTIFIED DISPATCHER: OK.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: And Aaron Brehove, a voice analyst, also a body language expert, when you hear that call, what goes through your mind when you hear that voice?
AARON BREHOVE, VOICE ANALYSIS AND BODY LANGUAGE EXPERT: So disconcerting, the lack of emotion that`s going on during the entire call, and the confidence, where she stops, she gives very quick, short answers, the lack of emotions, the lack of words, the lack of anything coming through is so disconcerting and it says so much about what`s going on here.
And since that she`s confident in here. She has no anxiety about what just happened. Nothing else is coming up, nothing is bubbling up, and she gives -- she actually corrects herself at one point and she goes from saying he was beating me, the reason why she killed him to -- it was actually, he hit me the night before, then she says she killed him with the hammer.
So she corrects herself and that`s a very telling thing. People that are anxious or a bit uncomfortable with correcting themselves, and she does not do that at all. She`s not -- she`s not scared to correct herself and she`s not scared to say too little.
COSBY: Yes, it`s a bizarre thing. You know, it`s so strange, Aaron.
And Paula Bloom, I want to bring you in, clinical psychologist. You hear this, you heard what Aaron said. The other thing I think about, she`s calm enough to go to the convenience store after she`s already hit him a few times. She probably took a shower. I can`t imagine she`s going with blood all over her if there`s blood all over the walls.
Goes to the convenience store, comes back, obviously calmly maybe buys something, we don`t know what she bought. What does this behavior seem like to you?
PAULA BLOOM, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST, BLOGGER, PAULABLOOM.COM: Right. I want to first say to Rukiya, I`m so sorry for the loss of your father and really for the loss of your mother. And I think she has a lot of wisdom to share here, which is when there`s any kind of mental illness, substance abuse, it`s like we cannot really see what`s really, really going on here.
And the person who you just spoke to, I forgot his name, the body language expert, is right. There`s a complete sort of disconnect from the emotion and the words. And a lot of times with different mental illnesses, people have a very -- it`s one of the telltale signs, a detached voice, it`s like the words and the emotions just don`t match.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED DISPATCHER: I`m going to stay on the line with you for just a few minutes here, OK? It will be -- that`s what they request that we do, OK? Are you sure that he has passed?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED DISPATCHER: OK. There`s no helping him?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Pardon me?
UNIDENTIFIED DISPATCHER: You`re sure he`s dead?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: And I`m Rita Cosby, in for Nancy Grace. Is she a cold-blooded killer or was she a victim of decades of abuse by her husband?
We are taking your calls, everybody. We want to hear from you.
Let`s go to Debra from New Mexico who`s on the line. Debra, what`s your question?
DEBRA, CALLER FROM NEW MEXICO: Yes, it appears she has alopecia, and she just stands with a stare, and I`ve been around domestic violence, and I do see it in her in so many ways.
COSBY: You do, so Debra, you believe that she was abused?
DEBRA: I believe she was. I truly do believe she was. And just her -- the shock. I think she`s -- it`s over, it`s like, she doesn`t have to deal with it anymore. Because the alopecia leads me to believe there`s a nervous disorder, and if he was -- you know, and a lot of abuse, domestic violence goes on in the privacy of your home. It`s not in the front of others.
(CROSSTALK)
COSBY: And by the way, Debra, you bring up a great point. And that`s why I did ask the daughter and some others, you know, sometimes also the women are protecting their husband or whoever else is the abuser. The one thing that I think is important -- and I want to go to Midwin Charles, a defense attorney, my dear buddy.
You know, she says to the police officers, usually when these things happen, there`s a series of calls, Midwin, you know that, you`ve covered a lot of these domestic abuse cases.
MIDWIN CHARLES, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes.
COSBY: And maybe when the cops come, they say, you know, that`s not a black eye, you know, from my husband, or something else happened, like in this case a car accident or whatever. But in this case, she also said that it was years of verbal abuse and she said that there was only one other incident but she didn`t report it. She didn`t even say herself that it was years of physical abuse, Midwin.
CHARLES: That`s right. But I think there`s one fact that none of us can walk away from here, Rita, which is this woman is on my screen with a black eye. So unless that black eye was self-inflicted, there was something else going in that home that no one else is aware of. I do believe that she was perhaps abused --
COSBY: But Midwin, how do we -- and by the way, how do we know he gave her the black eye? How do we know that`s a black eye. Let`s take a look at that picture again with her. I mean how do we know for sure that that`s a black eye? How do we know he`s the one who gave her a black eye? There are cases where someone else does it or it`s self-inflicted. I mean crazy things happen, Midwin, you know this.
CHARLES: But that`s just it. I mean we`re not trying the case here, we`re only talking about the facts that we are aware of. And it was reported that when police or paramedics arrived on the scene, they did acknowledge the fact that she had this black eye.
My point is, we don`t know either way, so we have to wait until the trial for these things to come out, but there are other people who have said that they have witnessed this woman walk around with marks on her body, and she has always said that they were the result of something else and she didn`t want anyone else to come near her. Those are telltale signs of women who are battered, Rita.
COSBY: And by the way that is obviously physical evidence. And for all of you at home, obviously if it did happen in your family or you know of it yourself, make sure you report it, make sure you get help. Because there are some very serious cases and we can`t rule it out here.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED DISPATCHER: OK. How long have he been abusing you?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: About 30 years.
UNIDENTIFIED DISPATCHER: OK. And so nobody else lived with you guys?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No.
UNIDENTIFIED DISPATCHER: And you have no idea where the hammer is?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: And I`m Rita Cosby, in for Nancy Grace.
Let`s go to Robyn Walensky, she`s an anchor and reporter with "The Blaze."
Robyn, what do we know about Donna Rae Williams, again, who`s admitted to killing her husband. Hitting him. She`s a granny, 90 pounds, but she kills him while he was asleep, hitting him with a hammer. Then she goes to the convenience store, comes back, and finishes it off, even so she tells the cops. What do we know about her past history? Any arrest, any violence, any other crimes in her past?
ROBYN WALENSKY, ANCHOR/REPORTER, THE BLAZE: Yes, there has been some situations where she was working very briefly in a store and the couple, again, Rita, does have some history of drug use, et cetera.
I just want to say to you, Rita, that I`ve been thinking about this all day. And what really still strikes me about this story, the nugget that really gets me, is that this happened the morning after Mother`s Day. And I firmly believe, like your last guest who said that I definitely believe this woman was abused for a long period of time.
When you take out a hammer, Rita, and you hit somebody over the head, that is a crime of passion. That is two people that have a history together. And something was either said on Mother`s Day or something was done on Mother`s Day that made this woman snap. But I have to tell you, I think that she is also mentally ill.
Because it is against human nature, Rita, as you know, when someone dies in the home or someone is ill in the home, what`s the first thing you do? You call 911. No human being wants to be around someone who is dead. So the two-week delay here is to me the most troubling nugget.
COSBY: Absolutely. It`s a absolutely -- bizarre.
Aaron Brehove, voice analyst, body language expert, she does look traumatized. Of course, we don`t sort of know from what. But when you look at her, what do you see as a body language expert?
BREHOVE: There is so little going on. She`s so vacant. She has that 30,000-foot stare as you say. There is so little happening here. It`s really telling the lack of emotion, the lack of anything going on. You don`t see any micro-expressions happening throughout the entire -- all these videos we see of her, there`s nothing. It`s really disconcerting, the entire lack. It`s the same as the call.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED DISPATCHER: OK. Is anyone else there with you?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No.
UNIDENTIFIED DISPATCHER: OK. What did you do with his body?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s in the back bedroom.
UNIDENTIFIED DISPATCHER: How old is he?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Fifty-four.
UNIDENTIFIED DISPATCHER: Fifty-four? 5-4?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: And I`m Rita Cosby, in for Nancy Grace. Was it cold-blooded murder, was it self-defense after years of abuse?
Take a look. There`s the picture of Donna Rae Williams. Does she have a black eye? We don`t know who caused it. Again, she didn`t call the cops for two weeks and her husband`s lying dead in the bed next to her. She says she killed him but she waits two weeks. There`s a lot of unanswered questions here. And one of them is, what happened to the hammer? When you hear an the 911 call, she says, I don`t know where it is.
Well, let`s go to Marc Harrold, he`s a former police officer.
What`s your take on the fact? Why isn`t she admitting where the hammer is?
MARC HARROLD, FORMER OFFICER, ATLANTA PD, ATTORNEY, AUTHOR OF "OBSERVATIONS OF WHITE NOISE": Well, she might have gotten rid of it. You know, the whole thing about mental -- you know, being mentally ill is not enough. You have to not know the difference between right and wrong generally. And if she got rid of the weapon, or the murder -- the hammer, it might show that she knew the difference between right and wrong here. But they`ll find the hammer would be my guess. But the fact that she doesn`t know is quite the mystery at this point.
COSBY: Yes, it is kind of bizarre that she seems to know enough to go to the convenience store but somehow the hammer is not there.
Hugo Rodriguez, is there a reason -- maybe it shows premeditation or -- what`s the reason? The other question, Hugo, don`t you think it`s important, say you`re defending her, on this convenience store tape, if this ever, you know, surfaces, we don`t know what she`s doing. She apparently leaves the scene. He`s dying. She knows she`s still alive, though. She goes to the convenience store, she comes back, she sees him struggling, finishes him off.
How she acts on that tape could be interesting, don`t you think?
RODRIGUEZ: I think both factors do. But Rita, this is out of the norm. When you --
COSBY: Sure is, my gosh.
RODRIGUEZ: Yes. When we heard from her daughter, she described her mother as suffering from severe mental illness, from a disease, that they had a toxic relationship. Everybody handles things differently. We -- this isn`t a cookie cutter defense. If they can show, and if they can prove --
COSBY: So how do you -- yes, how do you defend her? How do you defend her, Hugo?
RODRIGUEZ: I`d defend her by finding out everything that existed during those 30 years of marriage. By not having a snapshot of what happened that day but putting a motion picture in front of the jury because something snapped in this lady and her actions are not rational. So as long as we look at him through this --
(CROSSTALK)
COSBY: Yes. They clearly aren`t rational. But a lot of crazy people kill people, too, you know? And it doesn`t justify it.
RODRIGUEZ: I -- well, it may. Depending on these circumstances. We have post-traumatic stress syndrome and/or battered women, whichever one would satisfy the element for an instruction of mitigating her actions.
COSBY: All right. And everybody, tonight, let`s stop to remember Army Staff Sergeant Nathan Cox, 32 years old from Walcott, Iowa, killed in Afghanistan. He was awarded the Bronze Star and Purple Heart. He loved politics, reading and movies. He dreamed of being a professor and novelist. He leaves behind parents Les and James, his sister, Hannah, his widow, Annie, and daughter Sophia.
Nathan Cox, a true American hero.
Thank you to all our guests and our biggest thank you to you for being with us. Tonight, everybody, stay tuned because "Dr. Drew" is coming up next.
I`m Rita Cosby. It`s been great being here tonight. I`ll see you also tomorrow night. Have a fantastic evening.
END
