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Nancy Grace
How Did Wife of Wealthy Dentist Fall out of a Window?
Aired June 08, 2012 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
RITA COSBY, GUEST HOST: And breaking news tonight, a wealthy Massachusetts couple, well respected in their community, lives the high life. The husband a renowned dentist and philanthropist who`s held teaching positions at Harvard.
But their lives are turned upside-down when a frantic 911 call comes from their sprawling three-story mansion, the wife, Kathleen Desilets, found on the ground under a smashed window, falling three stories to her death.
While the local medical examiner determines there`s blunt force trauma and massive injuries to her heart, ribs and spine, they still can`t determine the manner of death. Did the wife of a wealthy dentist accidentally fall out of the window in the middle of the night, or is something more sinister involved?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was about 3:00 AM...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Neighbors were stunned hearing about the death at the home of a prominent dentist.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Wife and mother was found dead.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Found dead.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Riddled with injuries.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`s the wife of a wealthy dentist, reportedly falling out of a third story.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Shattered window.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Of their massive mansion.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Lacerations to her heart.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Questions swirling.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Blunt force trauma to her torso.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Accident or something else?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Rib and spine fractures.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Law enforcement doesn`t name anyone a person of interest or suspect.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: First examining the area beneath the window.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But reportedly seizes the phone and clothing of the husband.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A prominent oral surgeon, he wants his cell phone back.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who called 911 that night?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A death police consider suspicious.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: And good evening, everybody. I`m Rita Cosby, in for Nancy Grace.
Did the wife of a wealthy renowned dentist accidentally fall out of a third story window in the middle of the night, or is something are more sinister involved?
For the very latest let`s go to Debra Mark. She`s the anchor with Talkradio 790 KABC. Debra, take us through this wild mystery from the very beginning.
DEBRA MARK, TALKRADIO 790 KABC: Well, this certainly is a mystery. At a little bit after 3:00 o`clock, a woman was found on the ground, glass shattered all around her.
And the big question is, did she fall? Did she commit suicide? Was she pushed?
There was two phone calls that night. One was around 2:45 in the morning. The other was around 3:00 o`clock. Here`s another mystery. We have no idea who made those phone calls. All we know is Kathleen was found on the ground outside of her home and she fell -- somehow fell out of the third story closed window of their home. And the room was a gym in their house.
COSBY: Lots of unanswered questions. Let`s go to John DePetro. He is a reporter, talk show host with WPRO radio. John, talk us through what happens. The cops come. OK, these two calls come. I got a lot of questions for everybody tonight on this one. But the cops come. What did they see at that point? And what happens to this woman and her body?
JOHN DEPETRO, WPRO RADIO: What happens, Rita, is -- and this is a real mystery. I mean, they find her on the ground outside of her own home, and obviously, had come out of a third floor window. Now, this is a huge mansion, over 5,000 square feet. She was then transported to the hospital and her husband -- only the two of them lived there alone -- he was transported with her to the hospital in the ambulance.
COSBY: All right. So John, you said it`s this huge mansion. Describe the house. And also tell us about the room where this window is, third floor, again.
DEPETRO: It is third floor, Rita. It`s a beautiful, sprawling, over 5,300 square feet -- apparently, this is the gymnasium in their home. Now, I don`t know what was happening, who would be working out at that time or what went wrong. But the police found her on her own property, right below this third floor window where the gymnasium is in their beautiful, sprawling mansion.
COSBY: And Debra Mark, describe a little bit more of the home. Is there a fence around? Are there neighbors nearby?
MARK: Well, it was 3:00 o`clock in the morning, so nobody saw what happened. It was a huge house. And again, this was a closed window. So there was glass shattered everywhere. And you know, the neighbors haven`t really said a whole lot about this couple. We don`t know if this was a happily married couple. Again, a lot of unanswered questions.
COSBY: You know, and of course, you can imagine what a third floor looks like, Debra. Any sign about exactly how far she fell?
MARK: Well, it was three floors down, and if you see the house, it looks -- it looks -- I don`t know exactly how far, but it definitely looks like it was far enough to cause, obviously, a fatality here.
COSBY: Yes, and it certainly was, and it sounds like a pretty violent one. The question is, as you point out -- and I think there`s a lot of questions here, Debra -- a fall, did she jump? Again, closed window, so that raises some eyebrows. Was she pushed?
So John DePetro, my question to you is, was there any sign of who was in the home? Was the husband there? Was there a sign of someone else in the home, maybe an intruder?
DEPETRO: Rita, as far as we know, it was just her and her husband alone. We don`t know any knowledge of if there was an intruder in the home. But they do have grown children. Neighbors have said that the couple seems to travel a lot. They are rarely home. But at that time, the only person that came out, from what we understand, was her husband, the dentist, who then accompanied her in the ambulance to the hospital. There`s no sign that possibly that we know of that an intruder got into the house.
COSBY: Do we know what she was wearing, John? Do we have any idea what she was wearing, what the husband was wearing?
DEPETRO: No, we don`t. But it`s interesting you say that, Rita, because the clothing definitely comes into play once the husband gets to the hospital, and the police had a lot of questions for him.
COSBY: Andrew Scott, former chief of police from Boca Raton, Florida, when you hear all this -- you`re a cop who`s called to the scene of something like this. What are you looking for?
ANDREW J. SCOTT, FMR. CHIEF OF POLICE, BOCA RATON: Well, we`re looking for a variety of things. Physical evidence is one. But more importantly, you want to find out more of the details as to the relationship between the two. You want to know what they`ve been doing the night before or a few hours before.
Is there a motive for homicide? Is there a motive for suicide? Is there the capability of an accidental fall from that particular area of the house?
And you are looking for physical evidence, glass shards on the clothing of the husband, perhaps the glass or cuts or bruises on the victim in this case. So there`s a variety of things that you`re looking for.
COSBY: And Ben Levitan, telecommunications expert, I think these phone calls are also key, as we heard from Debra Mark, two phone calls, some, it sounds like, maybe a few minutes before, and then another one.
I`m also curious about the span of these calls. I`ve seen some reports, everybody, that there was one call at 2:45 in the morning, another one at 3:07. Did it take cops that long to get there, or why the difference in time?
What do you take from all of this, Ben Levitan?
BEN LEVITAN, TELECOMMUNICATIONS EXPERT (via telephone): Well, this is pretty evident that -- he was the only one in the house. He must have called 911. What we are not getting is the information -- they have not released what we call the "CAD sheet," the information that the 911 operator took. This will tell you the number that called, the location of the caller, and will have a physical recording of the caller.
Right now, it appears the only one who could have made that call is either the victim or the husband.
COSBY: You know what`s so strange, Ben? When you say all those things -- it is interesting. I have covered crime cases for a long time. It is kind of strange that they haven`t told us who made the call, the nature of the call. It`s very bizarre how tight-lipped cops seem to be in this case. That`s usually public information.
LEVITAN: Well, now, they said the first call was a medical assist. Now, it`s not clear, but generally when you call 911, they ask for police. Do you need police, fire or ambulance? So obviously, it was ambulance. And they must have dispatched it to the -- the 911 operator simply dispatches it to one of those three parties in that Massachusetts area.
COSBY: And John DePetro, what I think is sort of strange -- and tell me otherwise -- we haven`t seen that the husband`s made any statements, which -- you know, again, at this point, everybody, he is not a suspect. He`s not a person of interest. They don`t know if she jumped, if she fell, if she was pushed.
But it is sort of strange that we haven`t heard him say anything really about this situation. What does he know? You know, has anyone saw something, making a plea on television, you know, shock and horror about his wife. It`s a little confusing, what we`re hearing.
DEPETRO: You`re exactly right, Rita, and that adds to the mystery. The only person that seems to speak out is, in fact, the attorney, Roy (ph), for the husband. But there`s been no pleading for anyone that may have heard something, seen something. The husband`s been silent.
And Rita, that`s what adds to the mystery because seemingly, only two people maybe knew exactly what happened that night.
COSBY: And again, I do want to stress, you know, he`s not a person of interest, not a suspect. But it is unusual for cops not to come out and say, OK, it`s an accident, Here you go, or make some statement even on his part. It`s a little strange that everyone seems to be tight-lipped, don`t you think, Debra Mark?
MARK: I think that is absolutely right. I was saying that myself today.
COSBY: It`s astounding, Debra!
MARK: I can`t believe that he hasn`t said anything.
COSBY: It`s astounding to me!
MARK: It is. It`s crazy.
COSBY: You know, My poor wife, or, by the way, if (INAUDIBLE) all these things are open, you know, of what may have happened, her manner of death. By the way, anybody in the neighborhood, if you saw something, call, or if you think something was unusual -- maybe you don`t think it is, but just by chance, call the authorities -- even a plea like that. It`s just a little strange he`s tight-lipped and cops, boy, are they tight- lipped, too!
MARK: They are not saying very much at all, Rita. Now, it is interesting, also, that his cell phone has been seized. He has not gotten his cell phone back, and they did -- the night that his wife died, they took his clothes, and at the hospital, they actually gave him hazmat clothes to wear because they took his clothes.
COSBY: Do we know what`s happened with those clothes, Debra? Do we have an idea why they have not returned the clothes or the cell phone? What`s interesting -- you would think on the cell phone that they could get those records electronically, but they haven`t returned it. Have they given you any indication, Debra, why they have not returned those items?
MARK: No, they haven`t. And we do know, also, that the dentist has been asking for other documents in this case surrounding the search of the home, and he has not been able to get those, either, because of this pending investigation.
COSBY: Yes, which is fascinating. Let me go back to the first thing you just brought up, Debra, because I think you bring up some good points.
Ben Levitan, telecommunications expert, why would you hold the phone? I remember one or two cases I`ve covered where they held items in case there might have been maybe something forensic on the phone because, usually, you can get most of that information that`s on the phone, if they`re looking at something electronically, right?
Why would they physically hold the phone? Now it`s been a few months. Would they do that?
LEVITAN: Rita, you are absolutely right. This is very unusual. The best evidence and the most accurate evidence is kept at the phone company, every text message, every phone call, every registration.
COSBY: So Ben, why keep the phone? You and I are on the same page. Why keep the phone?
LEVITAN: I know exactly, Rita, why they`re keeping the phone. They`re keeping the phone not for forensics purposes. It`s because there`s DNA evidence on this phone. If they charge the husband and they find, say, the wife`s blood on that phone, even if he wiped it off, it`s going to push the -- you know, I`ve seen this a couple of times, where a phone was wiped down, and what it does is push DNA into the keys.
And the only reason they would keep that phone and not return it to him is because they did find DNA. To return the phone would break the chain of evidence because if he is charged, the defense is going to want to get their own DNA expert. And if they return the phone...
(CROSSTALK)
COSBY: Ben, you and I are on the same page. Andrew Scott, if, indeed -- and again, he hasn`t been charged with anything yet -- but indeed, they seem to be holding it. Is that your read of all this, Andrew Scott, too?
SCOTT: They`re actually being very prudent, and appropriately so, because the manner of death is still questionable. I believe there`s some sincere suspicion as to the actual cause of it, so they`re being prudent and holding onto items that potentially could be used evidence in court. But I think they`re doing the right thing for right now.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s a real-life mystery.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No suspect, no person of interest.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why did a Princeton woman end up dead under a third story window?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`s the wife of a wealthy dentist.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Kathleen Desilets went out that third floor window.
911 OPERATOR: 911. How may I help you?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: State police went to work, first examining the area beneath the window.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Was she running from something in the home? Was she pushed from the window?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: And I`m Rita Cosby, in for Nancy Grace.
Everybody, we are taking your calls. Also get ahold of us on Facebook and Twitter.
Let`s go to Wanda from Tennessee, who`s on the line. Wanda, what`s your question tonight about this big mystery?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hello, there.
COSBY: Hello?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The modern glass that most people have in their home is double-paned, and this looks like a newer home. And that type glass is almost impossible to break, and you couldn`t just fall through. So I wondered what type of glass was in the house.
COSBY: That`s a great question, and I thought of that, too. Let`s go to Debra Mark. Do we have any idea what kind of glass, especially if it`s on the third floor, as you`re seeing here. These are usually smaller, if they`re sort of storm windows or other windows. As Wanda appropriately points out, usually, they`re pretty heavy glass, usually a pretty decent frame.
Do we have the sense of this type of a window, Debra?
MARK: Well, Rita, Wanda`s concern is very well taken because I`m sure it probably is double-paned glass, but police are not talking to us. They are really being tight-lipped about this case. So a very good point because if it is double-paned glass, it does seem unlikely that she was able to just fall out the window.
Again, we do not know. I want to make sure that I say that again. We don`t know if this was suspicious. We don`t know if it`s accidental. But usually, on these newer houses or newer -- when they`re -- when they`re updated, it`s double-paned.
COSBY: And John DePetro, we do know that they also questioned at least the husband. Did they question anybody else in this case? Did they go to neighbors and say, Hey, did you hear something? Did you see something? Was there an argument? Was there something else? Was there a sign of an intruder?
DEPETRO: That`s very true, Rita. You know, the police did go around. The police have been very tight-lipped. But keep in mind this is a 5,300- square-foot home. All the homes around there are large mansions. So this is a neighborhood where people keep to themselves. As far as we know, no one heard any type of argument, any type of sound.
It is a real mystery how a woman at that time of night, Rita, comes somehow out of her window, broken glass on her -- her -- you know, the ground, her yard, and she essentially loses her life. But as far as we know, no neighbor heard any type of argument at that time.
COSBY: And Debra Mark, what do we know in terms of this woman? And I find it so staggering that authorities haven`t determined whether she jumped, fell or was pushed. If you believe that she jumped, say it was a suicide, is there anything in her background that she was suicidal?
Again, if you`re going to commit suicide, I don`t think you do it through a closed window. But let`s just look at that as a possibility because everything is on the table.
MARK: Well, here`s a woman who traveled a lot with her husband, has two grown daughters. And again, neighbors have not said whether the couple -- if they were a happy couple or not. But we don`t know a whole lot about this woman because, again, police are not telling us a lot. But you would think that she wouldn`t be so depressed, doing a lot of traveling.
But you know what? Honestly, do we really ever know how someone really feels? I mean, we don`t know unless we ask them. And maybe to the outside world, she was fine. We don`t know. But again...
COSBY: What do we know about...
(CROSSTALK)
COSBY: Debra, real quick, what do we know about him? We know that he`s very wealthy, very well-to-do couple, right?
MARK: Yes. He is a very wealthy dentists. He has several offices, so obviously, he`s doing very well. And they have enough money to do all this traveling.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The home of a prominent dentist...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He wants his cell phone back, seized in connection with the investigation.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: His wife, Kathleen...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Discovered beneath a third floor window...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A shattered window of her home, riddled with injuries, lacerations to her heart, blunt force trauma to her torso, and rib and spine fractures.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: And I`m Rita Cosby, in for Nancy Grace. So did she fall, jump, or get pushed out of a closed third floor window?
Let`s go to Peter Odom, defense attorney. You know, Peter, what`s interesting in this case, his attorney -- this is the husband -- and again, he has not been charged. He`s not been named a person of interest, not a suspect. Clearly, they were talking to him. They interviewed him for four hours.
They kept his cell phone, have not returned the cell phone. We were just hearing, you know, from Ben Levitan, telecommunications expert. He was saying that he thinks -- and I think -- I agree with him, don`t you, that I think they`re holding onto it because there`s something outside of the phone.
You can get everything electronically. You can get numbers. You can get where the ping was, where he was. But you can`t get maybe something on the outside of it. The attorney`s saying give it back. A judge has said, Uh-uh. And obviously, prosecutors are holding onto it.
You`re the defense attorney. What do you do in this case?
PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, right now, there are five different findings that a medical examiner, can make -- accidental death...
COSBY: Why haven`t they ruled it...
(CROSSTALK)
COSBY: How come they haven`t -- how come they...
ODOM: Because they don`t know. Because they can`t tell. And homicide...
COSBY: Can`t they look at the window? Can`t they determine from the type of window? You know, we just heard...
ODOM: No.
COSBY: ... it`s, you know, probably a pretty heavy window. Wouldn`t you think, like, you know, there`s a difference between someone who falls through? If you`re trying to kill yourself, you don`t go through a closed window. It`s bizarre.
ODOM: Well, the medical examiner can look at all this stuff, and the medical examiner, a trained pathologist, can`t distinguish whether this was accidental, homicide, suicide or natural causes. He ruled it undetermined. How are the police ever going to prove that? I think they`re holding onto the phone just because they have to so they can keep investigating. If there were DNA evidence on that phone, they would have charged this man already. I disagree with my colleague, Ben Levitan. I think they`re going to keep the phone because they think there might be a trial at some point in the future.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A death police consider suspicious.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why a wife and mother was found dead.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Kathleen Desilets went out that third floor window.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did she fall? Was she pushed?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Lacerations to her heart, blunt force trauma to her torso, and rib and spine fractures.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: And I`m Rita Cosby in for Nancy Grace. Well, did she fall? Did she jump? Or was she pushed? Remember, it`s a closed glass window on the third floor where a gym area is and it`s around 3:00 in the morning, at least that`s the time that the cops were called.
Let`s also get a recap of the story. Let`s go to Debra Mark. If we could get -- Debra, bring us up to speed again on sort of this wild mystery and where we are now.
DEBRA MARK, ANCHOR, TALK RADIO 790 KABC: Sure, Rita. Well, at 2:45 in the morning a call to 911 was placed, and then another call at 3:07. Kathleen was found -- she died, the medical examiner pronounced her dead at 3:34 in the morning. Her body was found outside of their three-story home on the ground with broken glass all over the place, and she somehow fell out of the third storey window, and the room where that third storey window was, was a gym.
Now, again, this is the middle of the night so she was in the gym and somehow fell out of the window. Again, the huge mystery is, was she pushed? Did she fall? Did she commit suicide?
COSBY: Yes, there`s a lot of unanswered questions, everybody. We are taking your calls. Also get hold of us on facebook. Also on twitter.
Let`s go to Mark from Massachusetts who is on the line. Mark, what`s your question to tonight?
MARK, CALLER, MASSACHUSETTS: Hi, Rita.
COSBY: Hi.
MARK: Just a quick question. Have the police given any indication whether there was any alcohol involved? If so, I was thinking of a theory possible she could have lost her balance up there and fell through the with window.
COSBY: Well, you actually ask a couple, I think, great questions.
Let`s go to John Depetro first. Was alcohol involved or any other drugs involved? Has there been any sign of that? Surely they`ve done a toxicology report?
JOHN DEPETRO, REPORTER, TALK SHOW HOST, WPRO RADIO: Rita, if there was, the police have not revealed that information. One thing is, though, it`s pretty dramatic even if someone did lose their balance to make it through the window and then obviously all the way down to the ground three stories up. You almost, if you think about it, have to have a running start or -- it`s not -- it`s hard to think of someone just maybe leaning against something.
But the answer to the question is, we don`t have any information if there were drugs or alcohol. If it was involved, again, the police are being very tightlipped about it. And as you point out, the husband, he has been completely silent on this, Rita.
COSBY: Yes. It is sort of a bizarre twist.
Let`s go to Andrew Scott, former chief of police from Boca Raton, Florida. How do you look at it? I think we talk about sort of the type of window. It brings up a great point. The window is closed. How do you determine if she`s pushed?
And is it kind of rare that somebody maybe say she was drinking or something was going on, more illicit drugs, could she or maybe she was running and lost her balance or did something, would you be able to tell that versus suddenly someone with much more dramatic force was pushed through the window?
ANDREW SCOTT, FORMER CHIEF OF POLICE, BOCA RATON, FLORIDA: I think the setup of the window and the mere physical dynamics of actually going through the window and then going out the window clearly indicates there`s some force that was used.
COSBY: Could it have been force? Could it have been her force or somebody else`s force? How do you determine that, Andrew?
SCOTT: That`s not going to be determined by that particular physical evidence seen in and of itself. It`s going to be determined by a whole totality of puzzles, pieces to the puzzle that have to come into play.
What was the motive? Was she drinking? Was there life insurance involved? Was there ongoing domestic disputes? Was there none of that?
This is not going to be solved by physical evidence alone. It`s going to be solved by a have a r variety pieces of an investigatory puzzle that`s going to be put together. That`s why it`s taking so long to get to where we`re at today.
COSBY: Let`s go to Michelle Dupree.
Dr. Michelle Dupre, medical examiner, also a forensic pathologist. Dr. Dupree, can you tell the difference by looking at her body? I mean, there`s obviously been an extensive autopsy performed. Are the bruises consistent with a fall?
I`m going to throw another thing out here for all of you at home, is it possible something happened to her before she went through the with window? Can you tell if the bruises are just from a fall or maybe something happened prayer to that this may be a cover-up for?
DR. MICHELLE DUPRE, M.D., MEDICAL EXAMINER, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST (via telephone): Well, Rita, that`s all very good questions and that`s one thing we absolutely want to look at. Were there anti and pairing more than injuries before the actual injury of the fall?
We look at things like pattern injuries, were there any defensive type wounds? How did she get out of the window? It was closed. Did she use something to break the glass? If so, that should be evidence found at the scene.
From looking at the body diagram, there also seems to be injuries in the middle of her back. How does she get her physical being out of the window? She would have to double over, maybe going out backwards. That could account for some of those. I think you have to look at the totality of the circumstances, and look at the injuries.
COSBY: Actually, you bring up -- Michelle, I want to go back to the diagram actually because you bring up a great point. There are injuries on sort of both sides of her body which is a fascinating point. Usually you would think if you sort of fell, you`re going in the direction -- although somebody could flip in the air, it`s three feet.
But, does that seem unusual to you there are signs on the front and the back?
DUPRE: Well, yes, actually it does. When we fall, we look at things like where are the injuries? If we fall accidentally and we`re conscious, we typically stretch out our arms or we have injuries on the bony prominences of our body.
The middle of your back, it`s a difficult place. But those injuries need to be explained. How did she come about them? You would expect them on her shoulder blades or other places of her back that stand out or stick out.
COSBY: Andrew Scott, also, what about searching the place, searching, you know, it`s a gym. You would think you`d check inside the room, too. Was there something - well there maybe something else used, say it was somebody in the house, it was an intruder, you would think maybe there was a weight, maybe there is something else used possibly connected to this fall or prior to.
SCOTT: You`re absolutely right. You`re going to be checking all of those types of things. You want to be looking particularly -you are going to search the whole house clearly. But what you want to be paying attention to is what type of fabric or fiber might have been seen around the opening of the window. Were there any wounds on her hands or to her face suggesting that she go face first? Did she go hands first? Or was the window broken first and then she went through and somebody is might have broken it. So, the house is an entire crime scene, but the focus is clearly in that athletic room and exercise room where they were both at it the time.
COSBY: A little strange, Andrew, say she was working out at 3:00 a.m. in the morning. It is a little bizarre. I do think what she`s wearing and we don`t know what she was wearing as you`re hearing, I thinks that`s very relevant. What if she`s wearing gym clothes, what if she was party clothes, what if what she`s in her pajamas, don`t you think those are key, Andrew?
SCOTT: Those are all keys to a piece of this major puzzle that so many pieces are still missing and unanswered for. Clearly the police have a lot more information than what they`re revealing but this makes a very good "who done it" and why.
COSBY: Eleanor Odom, prosecutor, you are a death penalty qualified prosecutor.
Would you re-create the scene? I would imagine that there, you know because there are a lot of these nuggets, do you re-create it? Do you get sort of a mock third floor house, see what it takes for someone of her size to get -- whether she pushes, jumps, you know, whatever all these options, test them all out being correct?
ELEANOR ODOM, DEATH PENALTY-QUALIFIER PROSECUTOR: Yes. You can get an expert to do that. they can get an accident re-constructionist, if this is an accident. But what`s great, Rita, about what the M.E. says, it`s undetermined which means right away, you know, well, it`s not really an accident. Because if it`s an accident and that was very clear, they would say. So, something is going on.
COSBY: I do think -- I agree with you. There`s something kind of fishy. Again, we don`t know who or what but it is fishy. I agree there`s something funky there.
Absolutely, guys.
Well, Nancy Grace is on the radar monitoring and also tracking the latest crime and entertainment stories, and we are featuring them. We want to tell you all about it on our Web site.
On the radar right now in Florida 23-year-old Nicole Ocresic and also her boyfriend dubbed the facebook killers. Allegedly strangled their friend to death and bragged about it over facebook. Ocresic now indicted for murder and could face the death penalty.
And in Minnesota, a mom and her boyfriend accused of killing her 19- month-old son.
In Louisiana the search for a missing co-ed Mickey Shunirk (ph). A private eye reportedly has info about a possible suspect in this case.
And for more on Nancy`s radar and to get your story on the radar, just go to HLNTV.com/ontheradar.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Riddled with injuries --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The wife of a wealthy dentist found dead.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Blunt force trauma to her torso --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How did it happen?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The body discovered beneath a third floor window.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did she fall? Was she pushed? Was it an accident?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: And I`m Rita Cosby in for Nancy Grace.
We are taking your calls, everybody.
Also get hold of us on facebook and twitter. Let`s go to Ron from Canada who is on the line. Ron, what`s your question tonight?
RON, CALLER, CANADA: Hi. I was wondering what she was wearing when she was found?
COSBY: You know what, we don`t know that. And, Ron, I think that`s an extremely important question. It could give us a sense of a time line.
Andrew Scott, the other thing that I think is important as we`re sort of talking about where she might have been and what she was doing at the time, we know that this 911 call came in, Andrew, at 2:45. That`s the first call. There`s another call, and apparently the first one is a sort of medical distress call we`re hearing.
How can we determine that`s indeed when the incident happened? Who knows? Maybe it could have been a while before that.
SCOTT: Exactly. That call is just a time line where you start to measure what has transpired from the time the call was received to ultimately when the police arrived. Now this could have happened beforehand. It could have happened several minutes, maybe a half hour beforehand. Don`t know because we don`t know how she was discovered, when she was discovered, what did the husband know and when did he call? So that phone call, although it`s important, is not definitive in determining very much.
COSBY: And, Dr. Michelle Dupre, medical examiner, can you determine, do you think, time of death? The call, again, comes in at 2:45. The cops come out soon afterwards.
Can they determine if she just had recently fallen through the window or pushed through the window, we don`t know the circumstances yet at all, or could it have been several hours earlier? Would they know that?
DUPRE: Rita, really in determining the time of death, you get a range. It is not specific. So they should be able to narrow it down within a range of time, a few hours perhaps. But probably nothing that`s going to give us any help.
COSBY: Angeline Gomez, defense attorney.
Now, though all this, the husband has not really been talking. When he did start talking, apparently, to the cops, he said I want a lawyer. And now his attorney is coming out and saying that there may have been some violations that they didn`t get him an attorney, they`re not returning the cell phone. Does all of this help the husband or does it make him look like he`s picking at these areas if he has nothing to hide. How do you play that, Angeline.
ANGELINE GOMEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No. It absolutely helps the husband. The police were wrong. As soon as he asked for an attorney, they have you had have pro provided him with an attorney. They violated his constitutional rights.
COSBY: What happens to what he says after that, Angeline? Is that inadmissible? What happens at that point?
GOMEZ: Well, if -- if -- he is charged as a criminal defendant and there is a trial where he needs to prove -- where his innocence needs to be proven, then what he needs to do is ask for those statements to be suppressed because they are illegal. They are fruits of a poisonous tree.
And tonight, everybody, CNN heroes.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When I got back from Iraq, I stood away from large crowds, malls, movies.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I went inside the house. Just didn`t want it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stayed inside, with windows were blacked out. I was really number. Didn`t feel like I had a purpose anymore. Nightmares constantly. Flashbacks. Everything to me is still combat zone.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Veterans with the invisible wounds -- we can see a wheelchair, a prosthetic leg -- they appear like you and I but their suffering goes so deep, it touches the soul.
MARY CORTANI, CNN HERO: What are you doing, buddy?
I learned how to train dogs while I served in the army. I know a dog can add a lot in your life. I realize this is what I was supposed to do. My name is Mary Cortani. I match veterans with service dogs, train them as a team so that they can navigate life together.
When a veteran trains their own service dog, they have a mission and a purpose again. Talk to them. Tell them they did good. Dogs come from shelters, rescue groups. They`re taught to alert them when they start to get anxious.
Are you OK? Are you getting overwhelmed? Focus on Maggie.
The dog is capable of keeping them grounded.
You`re focusing on him and he`s focusing on everything around you.
And you start to see them get their confidence back. Communicate differently. They venture out and are beginning to participate in life again.
Being able to help them find that joy back in their life, it`s priceless.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COSBY: And I`m Rita Cosby in for Nancy Grace.
Well, she fell three stories to her death through a smash closed window. So did she fall, did she jump, was she pushed? One of the circumstances, I think it`s a little strange, that somebody would jump through a closed window.
But, let`s go to Andrew Scott. Have you ever heard of anybody say, OK, I`m going to kill myself and let`s just do it through a closed window?
SCOTT: Well surprisingly enough, yes, I have. It`s only been a couple instances in my career. But those individuals were young. When I say young, they were teenagers and they were high on either cocaine or some other type of psychedelic drug. I`ve seen it happen. This doesn`t fit that profile by any stretch of the imagination.
SCOTT: Yes, no, it is strange.
Let`s go to Leslie Seppinni. She is a clinical psychologist, who is also the author of "who is Casey Anthony?"
Again, the husband at this point is not a suspect, has not been charged. He maintains his innocence. But, it is strange, he isn`t talking. Can they get some context, also, Leslie, from say other family members about the nature of the relationship? Not even him, but maybe somebody outside of even the relationship?
LESLIE SEPPINNI, PSY.D, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST, AUTHOR, WHO IS CASEY ANTHONY?: They could, but what`s really interesting and sort of disturbing about this particular case is that none of the neighbors seem to know them. They lived there for 30 years and that typically is indicative of some type of verbal, emotional, or physical abuse between the spouses.
The other thing is the fact that the daughters aren`t talking. That`s also indicative of being controlled by a parental figure or somebody within the family or somebody that they know outside of the family that they feel a lot of pressure to stay quiet.
So, there`s a lot here that doesn`t really add up in terms of this couple, in terms of getting to know them and finding out from other people what they were like.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Neighbors were stunned hearing about the death at the home of a prominent dentist.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A woman who seemingly had it all dies.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Cathleen`s body riddled with bullets.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We know Cathleen does a lot to went out the third floor window.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Questions, did she fall, was she pushed?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: I`m Rita Cosby in for Nancy Grace.
We`re taking your calls, everybody. Let`s go to Jennifer from Tennessee who`s on the line.
Jennifer, who`s your question about this amazing mystery?
JENNIFER, CALLER, TENNESSEE: Hi Rita. My question is, clearly, she had some life to call the ambulance to transport her. Do we know if she die on the way? Was she pronounced dead once she got to the hospital? Did they do procedures on her at all? Was she at any point able to talk and say anything?
COSBY: That`s a great question. Let`s go to Debra Mark, anchor, talk radio, 790 KABC. To we know, was she dead on the scene, was she able to say anything, were there any other indications from what she was doing or saying possibly?
MARK: Rita, she was pronounced dead at the hospital at 3:34 in the morning.
COSBY: And we don`t know any details, if she was talking. So far we have not heard that she said anything. Is that right, Debra?
MARK: That`s correct. We have no idea about that. We just know she was pronounced dead at the hospital. We have no idea if she was dead when she was on the ground. We just know that she was pronounced at the hospital.
COSBY: Let`s go to Ben Levitan, telecommunications expert. You are the phone expert guy. We mentioned that they still have the husband`s cell phone. Again, he maintains his innocence. He`s not a suspect. At this point he hasn`t been named a person of interest either.
Why do you think the delay in this and also just in general in solving this case, and also by the way, determining whether it was an accident or not?
BEN LEVITAN, TELECOMMUNICATION EXPERT (via telephone): Well, for one, you know, the cell phone evidence that we need is not exactly on the day of the incident. We really need to look back a month or two and see what was developing in that month.
COSBY: Very interesting point, Ben. Great point.
LEVITAN: It could be someone was having a relationship. Or somebody got caught in a relationship. These things -- the phone history tells us a lot.
COSBY: And Eleanor Odom, do you think this will be solved?
ODOM: I hope it will be, Rita. And I think Ben just made an excellent point. We solve more crimes nowadays looking at phone records and looking for patterns. So, that could be a real key.
COSBY: Absolutely.
And everybody, tonight, let`s stop to remember army sergeant first class Raymond Munden, 35-years-old, from Mesquite, Texas. Killed in Afghanistan. Awarded the bronze star and the purple heart. From a military family. He was on his sixth tour of duty. He loved giving clothing to Iraqi children. And he leaves behind his parents Billy and Ralph, stepfather, Dwayne, and his brother, Brad, widow, Kelly, daughters Sidney and Kaylee.
Raymond Munden, true American hero.
And thank you to all our guest. And our biggest thank you to you for being with us tonight.
We also want to wish a very special happy birthday to one of our stars here the wonderful Dea Emerson.
And before we go tonight, perfect for father`s day, my book "quiet hero" dedicated to my father tells his harrowing story as a world war II resistance fighter and prisoner of war. It`s an emotional story of redemption and forgiveness.
And I hope my father, my hero, who`s fighting for his life tonight in a hospital with cancer gets better soon. I love you, dad.
Everybody, have a beautiful weekend. And say those prayers for my father. I love him dearly. Stay tuned. Jane Velez-Mitchell is coming up.
END
