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Inside Sandusky Testimony

Aired June 12, 2012 - 21:00   ET


DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: Here we go.

One of the alleged victims apparently breaks down on the stand in the Jerry Sandusky rape trial. So, what is it like to relieve the trauma and the pain of these experiences?

I`m speaking to a woman who faced her rapist in court. She is speaking with us live and taking your calls.

And later, a father beats a man to death after the father says he caught him molesting his 4-year-old daughter. Weigh in now at 1-855- DRDREW5. Should that dad be charged?

Let`s get started.


PINSKY: Welcome to the program.

We`re going to start out tonight talking about day two of the Jerry Sandusky trial, sex abuse trial. Alleged victim number one takes the stand and with me to tell us about that is Michael Christian, an HLN senior producer who is covering the trial.

Michael, please tell us about what we are hearing about victim number one`s test -- alleged victim number one`s testimony. I heard he broke down on the stand today.

MICHAEL CHRISTIAN, SR. FIELD PRODUCER, "IN SESSION": He did. He was very emotional, Dr. Drew. We heard from another alleged victim yesterday, number four. And he told his story in a much more matter of fact way. It certainly was effective, but without the emotion.

Well, today, when we had alleged victim number one, there was a lot of emotion. He cried. There were times when he gasped, as if he was trying to catch his breath before he could move on. It was clearly a very difficult story for him to tell.

And one of the interesting differences between these victims we have seen is number four who testified yesterday is 28. Now, he didn`t have a lot of emotion but he`s had a little more time in his life to come to terms with this. Victim number one we saw this morning, he is 18. This is still lot closer to him and I think that may account for a lot of the emotion that we saw today.

PINSKY: And, Michael, do you think this alleged victim had a significant impact on the jury?

CHRISTIAN: I don`t know how it couldn`t have. I can tell you that of the jurors in the box, virtually every one of them is looking at him intently as he is telling his story, with the exception of one person, that is very interesting, because it is the youngest juror, who is a Penn State college student, who wasn`t looking at him. That particular juror apparently was just kind of looking down a lot of the time, was -- was listening, you could tell, but not really looking and I think because he is so close in age to victim number one, it was tough for him to process that kind of information.

But other than that, everyone was looking directly at victim number one and listening to every word.

PINSKY: And, Michael, finally what about Jerry Sandusky himself? Did he seem shaken or at all affected by this testimony?

CHRISTIAN: You know, I don`t mean this to sound ridiculous, but he is very easy going. He was always like that during pretrial hearings. People talk about how likable he was. And he is like that in the courtroom. He comes in in the morning, he smiles. He sits at the table and he listens to these witnesses, but you don`t see a lot of emotion out of him. He`s just drinking it in and just this nice guy, appearing to be a nice guy that everyone talks about.

PINSKY: All right. Michael, thanks for that report. Now, we are sort of launching from the Sandusky case to talk about the specifics of what someone goes through, having to live through -- first of all, to live through the nightmare of being abused but then living through the nightmare of testifying in front of the abuser.

I have Sara Alvarez with me. She had to go through precisely that. There`s Sara.

Sara, thank you so much for joining us.

Before we go to calls, tell people a little about your story so they get a sense of what you had to do, what you have been through, and how you found your way out.

SARA ALVAREZ, SEXUALLY MOLESTED BY STEPFATHER: Well, when I was 4 years old, my stepfather abused me, sexually molested me, went to prison and then when I was 16 years old, he was out of prison. My mother took him back into the home. He abused me again.

And then I -- you know, inevitably went to trial against them. So I think that`s what we are talking about tonight, how these victims were abused and now they are being completely re-victimized through Sandusky sitting there, staring at them. You know, they have go up there and almost relieve the horrors through everything they have been through, now telling it in front of a jury, and it`s embarrassing, and it`s horrible, and it`s gut-wrench, and it`s so emotional.

PINSKY: Sara, thank you being willing to share the story with us.

Let`s go to calls, Sara is going to stay with me, answering your calls about what she went through, what you think about Sandusky and how she was able to get through this. I mean, there is a story of the human spirit behind this and I want you all to understand how that works.

And, by the way, sexual abuse, physical abuse, abandonment of kids in this country is stunningly common. It is -- not just poor Sara went through this. I know a lot of you out there went through stuff like that or your kids have been.

John in California, go ahead, first -- John.


PINSKY: Hi, John.

JON: There are 10 alleged victims in the Sandusky case. So doing the math, it`s really hard to believe that all ten boys are lying.

I got a question -- so the histrionics and diagnosis for Sandusky sounds like a lot of crap.


JON: Exactly what is histrionics is this some kind of smokescreen from the defense.

PINSKY: Of course it is, John.

But let me ask Sara this question. Did your -- your perpetrator, did the defense team for him come up with a crazy smokescreen that was hard to sit through? And I will explain what histrionic is in just a second.

ALVAREZ: Oh, yes, absolutely. They -- it was everything from I was a -- you know, horrible teenager to I had issues with drugs and alcohol to I was not doing well in school. Everything was -- you know, I was this horrible teenager and now I was just plotting against my poor stepfather. So, there was always something.

PINSKY: Yes. I mean, the way we blame the victims in this society is just phenomenal. So, pay attention to that part of Sara`s story. We blame the victim. When somebody gets raped, we blame the woman that was raped. Oh, why did you go out dressed like that? When somebody is sexually abused as a teenager or as a child, and gets into drugs and alcohol as a teenager, a-ha, a drug addict, you know, sort of victimizing his poor stepdad.

Let me tell you to answer the question, Jon, about the histrionic personality thing. It`s going to take about a minute here. Personality disorders are these life-long patterns of behavior. All right? Like people I think are familiar, I think with narcissistic personality where somebody feels empty inside they have to keep themselves puffed up and they really don`t think emotions have meaning. I know we all know people like this and they really don`t identify emotions in other people and so they exploit other people.

Histrionic is in the spectrum of narcissistic disorder. In fact, histrionic disorders almost exclusively thought to happen in women. So why they are pulling this stuff for Sandusky is kind of bizarre. Histrionic features in a male usually flip of on over into narcissistic disorder, which I think people again are familiar with.

Histrionic people are people that are flamboyant and have to be the center of attention and are very dramatic, and they are saying he needs to be the center of attention that`s what makes him histrionic.

Histrionics dress flamboyantly, I mean, they are really kind of -- think of an opera star or something that would be somebody who is sort of histrionic in style and I don`t see that in Sandusky.

Let`s go to Diane in Pennsylvania -- Diane.

DIANE, CALLER FROM PENNSYLVANIA: Hi, Dr. Drew. I wanted to tell you that I was 9 years old when I was molested. And it was by my girlfriend`s father.


DIANE: And when he brought me back home to my mom, who had five children, he gave her milk. And when I looked up and saw how happy my mother was, I never said anything and I never told anyone anything until I was in my 30s, after I had a breakdown.

PINSKY: And, Sara, what kind of words of advice would you have for Diane? What would you like it ask her?

Diane, what would you like to ask Sara?

DIANE: Well, you know, I just had a comment, if I could about Sandusky. I don`t understand -- if you watch him, he is always smiling and everything. Any normal person under that type of scrutiny and pressure and being accused of those things wouldn`t act like that.

PINSKY: You wouldn`t think so. You would think he would be a little concerned about things there he is smiling in those pictures right now.

DIANE: He is always smiling -- I always see him smiling. And let me tell you, that is -- that`s not normal.

PINSKY: Well, at least it`s denial. I don`t know what that is, but at least it`s denial how serious this situation is.

Sara, any words of advice for Diane before we go to break?

ALVAREZ: No. I mean, it sounds like, you know, she told someone after all this time. I think that`s what I got from that. But, you know, that`s exactly how you feel, you feel like you`re letting someone down and you`re not doing the right thing or you`re making someone unhappy that you care about. That`s exactly what sexual predators prey on, is what you care about.

And that`s -- you know, as far as him being happy, you know, he`s -- he doesn`t take this seriously. In their sick minds, they really think that they haven`t, you know, done anything wrong, anything wrong. They think the children wanted to do this or they were participants in it.

So, this is just sick and you are looking into the mind of a very sick man. And that`s really all it`s about.

PINSKY: Sara, I want to pick up there after go to break. More calls. Stay with us.


PINSKY: Now, welcome back.

Today, a second alleged victim testified in the sex abuse trial of Jerry Sandusky.

Back with us to discuss this is Sara Alvarez. She was actually raped by her stepfather and then had to withstand his personal cross-examination during trial.

So, Sara, as I understand it, he actually represented himself in trial and he was the one cross-examining you. I don`t even want to think what that must have been like. But I do want to ask you this.

We start -- we ended that last segment talking about how these person traitors literally believe that the children are desirous of participating with them in this way. Tell me how your perpetrator was able to pull you into that -- let`s call it a relationship. How did it go down for you?

ALVAREZ: I don`t know if it was -- yes, I guess it was a relationship. It was -- you know, I don`t know, that`s just -- that makes me stunned for words. I guess it was a relationship and it was -- you know, it was something that, you know, I understand when the 18-year-old was on the stand and, you know, how he was so close to it and he was feeling because being 28, you separate yourself from it and you like to think you moved on.

But, you know, in many ways, when you`re 18, you`re still a child and you feel like a child and people are still treating you like a child. So it`s very easy for him to get on the stand and break down in front of his perpetrator because this person probably did make him feel like he was in a relationship and feel like there was a special bond between him.

PINSKY: I`m going to stop you. That is how they do it right? Make you feel like there`s something special, they see something special in you. I use the word relationship. But let me put a modifier on it, it is a sick relationship. It`s a terribly sick relationship and it is one-sided. It is run by the perpetrator, right?

ALVAREZ: Right. Right.

PINSKY: And I`m so sorry -- listen, I hope you`re OK talking about it. It is not OK that anybody did what they did to you or any -- think about it, Sara, millions of kids in this country that go through this. It is stunning that we live in a time when this is happening.

And, you know, I just appreciate you being following talk about it. Can we talk about empowering the victim a little bit? How do kids break free of that if they are in that, I want to call it web -- if they are in that web, how do they get out?

ALVAREZ: I mean, there`s -- it`s really the people like, you know, like you and, you know, the advocates out there that are helping kids or, you know, the assistant coach. I know he testified today. There`s so much he could have done or just said to the kid, is there anything you want to talk about?

You know, here is this person in a position of power and there`s a young man or a young person there and it`s -- it`s really hard to get out. The best thing they can do is find someone they trust. But it`s an embarrassing subject.

So, you know, how do you tell people this is what`s going on with me? And the person that`s doing this to you is making you feel like you`re a participant and you`re just as wrong as I am if you tell or just so much emotional stuff that goes on into it. It`s very hard to get out.

PINSKY: I see, Sara, you still blame yourself for some of this and I hope you do forgive yourself, at least mostly. It`s hard. The victim blames themself and that`s part I sort of find the sort of soul murder they get into, right?

ALVAREZ: Yes. Absolutely. I mean, I`ve -- I mean, I`ve come a long way.

PINSKY: Oh, yes.

ALVAREZ: I have a done a lot.

PINSKY: Help people understand this. How is it that -- you know, humans have a way of re-enacting their traumas. Help understand how this then plays out in teenage life and young adulthood if they see evidence of this maybe in their family or children. How did it play out for you?

ALVAREZ: For me, I was, you know, I associated, you know, sex with love and that`s how I was cared about and that`s how, you know, I didn`t come from a -- you know, a lot of loving environment. So, to mix sex with emotion with a child, that`s the worst thing you can possibly do.

And then, you know, you`re -- you`re much more likely to get into bad relationship also, which I did. And just go down the wrong path in life, which I did for, you know, a while. But it`s very dangerous to mix sex and emotion with a young child. It`s detrimental.

PINSKY: OK. Let`s take a quick call before we go to our break here.

Lisa in Illinois -- Lisa, you have something for us? Lisa?

LISA, CALLER FROM ILLINOIS: Hi, Dr. Drew, how are you doing?

PINSKY: I`m great. Thanks for calling.

LISA: Good. I was molested at -- around the age of 4 or 5. I`m just starting to get flashbacks of this. I have a lot of other trauma in my life and I was wondering about the guys that are in the Sandusky situation, could they -- could this have been how it all started with them, with flashbacks? Is that normal?

Because I don`t remember -- it was with a family member and my dad died when I was 10. I was raped when I was 9. I was almost killed in a fire in `05. And I have a huge self-loathing and rage about me and I just -- I don`t know what to do with the flashbacks.

PINSKY: OK, Sara, I se you relating strongly to what she is saying and what she is describing is posttraumatic stress disorder which is so, so common from this problem. Again, as you have been -- when you have been traumatized, you will end up going out and re-dramatizing yourself and all of a sudden, something relatively minor will happen and set off this flurry of anxiety and depression and flashbacks and abusive thoughts.

LISA: I`m on antidepressants, I`ve seen therapists my entire life. I`m in my 40s and all of a sudden, my body just broke and just stopped and just said, you`re not getting out of bed, you`re not doing anything.

So I`m seeing a therapist, but what do you do when you don`t really remember?

PINSKY: It`s not about remembering, my dear. Sara, I will give you a chance to give a few words of encouragement for her before we go to break, it`s not about remembering. It`s about trusting other people, it`s about building the foundations of emotional regulation again and that happens in a relationship with other person and through very specialized sort of trauma treatment. I hope your therapist has experience treating trauma because there are definite things that need to be done.

But trust me, Sara, trust me on this, it gets better. Let her know how.

ALVAREZ: Oh, it absolutely gets better and sometimes when you`re finally a place in your life where you feel like you trust and you found someone you love, that`s when you completely break down, because that`s when you can finally let go and you feel safe enough to break down. And it is posttraumatic stress disorder because -- and there`s medicine and there`s treatment and it`s very intense treatment, but you can get help for this and it gets so much better.

And because I`m crying tonight, it doesn`t mean I`m not through the thick of it because I`m a strong person. But you know, I still have nightmares sometimes, too. And I will be honest, when I have too much to drink or I have too much wine, which I shouldn`t do every once in a while, I do have flashbacks and that`s not --


ALVAREZ: -- it`s not what someone in my position will be doing. But, you know, every once in a while, I will have too much to drink and that`s exactly when the flashbacks --

PINSKY: Using or withdrawal, both will cause flashbacks. So when you`re coming off the wine or using the wine, both will induce the flashbacks. So, both you guy, not a good idea.

Now, next up, we`re going to talk to a man whose foundation is helping alleged Sandusky victims.

Stay with us. Take your calls.


PINSKY: Welcome back. We have been talking about the Jerry Sandusky sexual molestation trial.

Joining us, Peter Pelullo. He started the foundation Let Go, Let Peace Come In to help adult survivors of childhood sexual abuse. The foundation is currently treating some of Jerry Sandusky answers alleged victims.

Now, Peter himself was a victim of childhood sexual abuse and recounts his story in the book "Betrayal and the Beast."

Thanks for joining us, Peter.

How long has your foundation been working with Sandusky so called or alleged Sandusky victims and what`s the status or what can you tell us about them now? How are they doing?

PETER PELULLO, "LET GO LET PEACE COME IN": Sure, good evening, Dr. Drew. I like to call the boys two of the heroes of the eight young men that have stepped up to testify because not only are they speaking for themselves, they`re speaking for millions of adults that have not been able to speak.

I think they are doing as well as can be expected. You know this is a life-altering event as I know and as I`ve written about. And is going to take a lot of time and I`m sure the -- by testifying, they took a hit to -- as Sara mentioned -- to the memories of what happened. But with time, I know this will be a booster for them and reinforce all the recovery that they are doing because this is a year after year situation --

PINSKY: Yes, a chronic process of recurring.

Peter, thank you for joining us. We are going to take a quick break and both Peter and Sara are going to stay with me and take your calls.

Again, our number is 855-DRDREW5, 373-7395.

And later on, after this -- after we finish this topic, a father kills a little girl`s alleged abuser. What should happen to that dad? Then after that, I`ll be taking your calls about anything, 855-DRDREW5.

Stay with us.


PINSKY: Now, I asked Peter and Sara to stay with us. And I do want to get to more of your calls and we are in a bit of a time crunch. I only have 4 1/2 minutes or so with you guys. So, I do want to get to calls.

I`ve actually shortened the mixed bag segment at the end so we can talk to Peter and Sara some more.

Rainey in Louisiana, go ahead.

RAINEY, CALLER FROM LOUISIANA: Yes, I was molested as a child. When it happened, the first time it happened, I was confused. I didn`t know what was happening. So, I enjoyed it.

So, me enjoying it -- because you know, sex is supposed to be enjoyable between two married people. I thought that it felt good, so that gave me a lot of guilt.

PINSKY: Right. And, Rainey, that`s very common experience for -- how old were you when this happened?

RAINEY: I was about 7.

PINSKY: Yes, remember, the part of being the victim is you feel responsible for the whole thing and when you enjoy it on top of that becomes very shattering, very difficult to understand.

Sara or Peter, did either of you experience that sort of confusion?

ALVAREZ: I did. Young children will play with themselves in the bath, they will please themselves. So when an adult is doing this to you, it`s very confusion and you end up feeling very, very guilty. So, yes, of course.

PINSKY: Yes, it becomes -- you blame yourself. You feel responsible. You buy right into the crap what the perpetrator is saying. Blair in Texas, please go ahead. Blair?

BLAIR, TEXAS: Yes. Hi, Dr. Drew.

PINSKY: Hi, Blair.

BLAIR: Yes, sir.

PINSKY: Go right ahead.

BLAIR: I have a -- I`ve got a question about the case, about the Sandusky case. Why on earth would he do such things to those ten guys? It`s just really sickening. He`s a really sick guy.

PINSKY: Yes. Peter, I`ll let you answer that. It`s a broad enough statement for any of us to answer, I suspect, but go right ahead, Peter.

PETER PELULLO, "LET GO LET PEACE COME IN": Yes. You know, unfortunately, he`s a serial predator on children, and he set up the situation at Second Mile to put himself in a position where he could have access to children. And I think she`s right. I mean, it`s somebody that`s very, very sick. He needs extreme help.

PINSKY: And the crazy part about the reconciling all this is, oftentimes, the Sanduskys of the world the kids are feeling bad for, there`s a certain percentage of kids that are victims become perpetrators, which is really mind bending trying to understand all this. Marjorie in Canada, please. Marjorie?


PINSKY: What do we got for you?

MARJORIE: How are you?

PINSKY: We`re good.

MARJORIE: Hi, Dr. Drew. I just want to say that when I was molested, I was five years old, and it was by my father`s best friend. It was started when we went camping, and he always made me sit on his lap. He`s followed me a lot that I went dry. And like the woman said before, sex is pleasure. You enjoy it.

PINSKY: Mm-hmm. And that was confusing for you?

MARJORIE: Yes, very confusing.

PINSKY: Yes. Have you had -- Marjorie let me ask you this, have you had treatment?

MARJORIE: No. That`s the point. I had no treatment, no flashbacks.

PINSKY: Yes, but listen, I don`t want to sort of say someone can`t go through an experience like this and be completely OK. I mean, sometimes, you know, things happen, but it has to affect you, it does. Sara, please bring in others if you would.

ALVAREZ: Yes. It`s definitely affecting her. It sounds like it is even from the way she`s speaking on the phone.


ALVAREZ: She still sounds confused.


ALVAREZ: She absolutely needs to talk to somebody.

PINSKY: Yes. I think, Marjorie, when you have these kinds of experiences, it shatters the upper limit to the child`s ability to regulate their emotions. Doris in Delaware, last question. Doris?

DORIS, DELAWARE: Yes. Hi. Dr. Drew, I wanted to say that when I was 13 years old, I was some place that I wasn`t supposed to be, according to my mother, and I was jumped by a bunch of boys from my junior high school and thrown up against a wall and molested. And because I didn`t react, because I was frozen, they thought I liked it.

Then they finally -- somebody scared them off. My friend was with me and I told her don`t ever tell anybody that this happened. I didn`t tell my mother or anyone else because I knew that I would be blamed for being where I shouldn`t have been.

PINSKY: Doris, it is disgusting that people blame the victim. The freeze response -- and people don`t understand this. People only think in terms of the fight or flight response, but the freeze response is what people do when they are stuck, when there`s no escape. And if you`ve been molested as a child, you learn the freeze response, and it becomes a way of getting through really dealing with all emotion.

You disassociate and response to everything. And that is a very primitive way of dealing with emotions that keeps you from every building the capacity to regulate. You`re not at fault.

Sara, Peter, thank you so much for joining us today. Peter, keep up the great work with these -- what we`re calling alleged victims. I do appreciate you both joining us.

PELULLO: Thank you, Dr. Drew.

PINSKY: And Sara, as always for sharing your story.

ALVAREZ: Thank you.

PINSKY: All right. We`re going to switch gears and talk about a father who kills the man who allegedly attacked his little girl. First of all, would you behave like that? Some of us might and would you put that dad in jail? After this.



PINSKY (voice-over): Father catches another man allegedly molesting his four-year-old daughter and snaps, punched him in the head, and now, the accused molester is dead. Should the dad be charged with a crime? Call now, 1-855-DrDrew5.


PINSKY (on-camera): A Texas father killed a man he says molested his four-year-old daughter. What would you do if you witnessed your child being sexually assaulted? Should this father face charges? The sheriff in that precinct says no. Call now, 855-373-7395.

Our buddy criminal defense attorney, Mark Eiglarsh, is here. Mark, it is so good to see you. It has been way too long. And --

MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Wonderful to see you too, my friend.

PINSKY: Yes. And I don`t have my Pepto-Bismol or nothing. All right. Mark, it`s not up to the --

EIGLARSH: I don`t either.

PINSKY: It is not up to the sheriff to press charges, but it`s -- is a parent`s rage an excuse to kill?

EIGLARSH: Well, I`m not going to say yes in general. I will say definitely yes under these unique facts and circumstances. Apparently, the sheriffs conducted an investigation and based on that, they made some very unique factual findings. He caught the molester attempting to sexually molest his own four-year-old daughter.

And in doing so, he was trying to keep this guy away, and he started to hit him, and the guy was resisting, and through that process, he was defending his precious offspring, which is something that all of us would do under those circumstances. The fact that he died, well, that was a consequence of the molester`s actions, and the prosecutor should use their discretion and not bring charges.

PINSKY: So, so you support the idea that this guy not be brought to any kind of justice? Let`s take a quick call. Shirley in North Carolina, what`s your opinion about this?


PINSKY: Hi, Shirley.

SHIRLEY: First of all, I commend the father for serving justice on the man who molested his daughter.

PINSKY: So, he was the arm of justice acting the way he did?

SHIRLEY: Yes, he was. Our judicial system, it`s too lax on the so- called punishment that they slap on sex offenders. They possibly --

EIGLARSH: Well, Drew, I take exception to that.

PINSKY: Go ahead, Mark. Go ahead.

EIGLARSH: Well, listen, I am not in favor of what he did because it`s important to carry out his vigilante justice. I support what he did because factually, he was defending his daughter.

This shouldn`t serve as a symbol to those -- to go around, it`s OK to kill people because you think that they might have molested somebody, because you`re going to have people abusing the law if that was the law, like they`re doing stand your ground here in Florida.

PINSKY: I was going to say. We all know in Florida this would be fine to kill somebody. It`s perfectly OK in Florida, but now, Texas is following suit.

EIGLARSH: No, listen, Texas leads the way. That`s Texas justice out there.

PINSKY: Oh, really?

EIGLARSH: What I`m saying is, you catch someone in the act, you can defend that person, but you go over to their house later on that night and you kill them, that`s a different story.

PINSKY: Got it. Debbie in Tennessee, what do you want to say to us?

DEBBIE, TENNESSEE: Well, I think that the father should be given a medal for pulling this jerk off of his child and protecting her. An animal in the wild will protect their young and I say nothing wrong with that man defending his daughter and looking out for her good.

PINSKY: Go ahead, Debbie. I`m just thinking, I can see where this could go further where somebody -- who are saying this is OK, Mark, somebody could follow somebody and then knock their block in a more premeditated fashion.

EIGLARSH: Without question. I mean, again, the investigators here found that factually, what the father was saying was supported by the evidence. But in other circumstances, it would be very convenient for someone to say well, yes, I heard that he was molesting. And then, you know, again, it`s fact sensitive.

You catch someone in the act, and there`s evidence to support that. You can defend someone else, and that`s what he did and that`s what I would do if anyone, God forbid, laid a hand on my precious offspring.

PINSKY: OK. I want to bring in a defense attorney. His name is Jack Bradley who had a similar sort of a case. Now, Jack, you defended a teen, a teen young man, a teen boy, who killed his accused molester, and I guess, received a very low sentence from the court. Is that right? So, he was -- it was OK for him to -- did he kill the molester?



BRADLEY: And after a trial, in front of a judge, he received probation.

PINSKY: All right. And so, did we understand this as also a special circumstance, very much like the man in Texas?

BRADLEY: In my particular case, the young man was 16 years of age. The perpetrator of the crimes against my client who had been molesting him since he was 14 years of age went too far. He promised to stop. He didn`t.

And my young man went into a rage and ended up hitting him with a very large pickle jar in the head three times and then stabbing him approximately 57 times, demonstrating that he was in a total rage and was not in control of himself. The police thought that it was a murder. The judge found that it was a voluntary manslaughter and was able to sentence him to probation.

PINSKY: Let`s take another call. Sarah in Louisiana, you have a comment?

SARAH, LOUISIANA: Yes. I believe that the man who accidentally murdered his friends for catching he was doing something horrific was just totally justifiable. Any loving parent would do the same thing if they saw something so horrific happening to their four-year-old daughter. I think that he did exactly what needed to be done.

PINSKY: And Mark, let me go to you and ask if we`re getting on a slippery slope here. I mean, yes, I`m all in favor of defending children. I`m in favor of perpetrators defending themselves. I mean, victims coming to their own defense but stabbed 57 times? You still on board with that?

EIGLARSH: Well, again, I told you earlier, it solely depends upon the facts. And he didn`t get away with it. They prosecuted him because they probably said, you know what, that wasn`t the answer. He wasn`t doing it at the time and in self-defense he did it. He just went into a rage.

So, he was found guilty of a serious offense, but the judge considered all that in mitigation, in the sentencing phase, and I think that that was appropriate.

PINSKY: Thank you, Mark. Thank you, Jack. I appreciate you guys for sharing those stories with us.

Next up, we`re going to take calls about anything you guys have on your mind. It`s 855-373-7395 after this.


PINSKY: Well, if you like daytime TV, then you are going to love this. Watch the 39th Annual Daytime Emmy Awards live right here on HLN. That is Saturday, June 23rd, 8:00 p.m. eastern. I plan to be there presenting, as with many of the HLN and CNN talent.

We are taking your calls. Before we get to them, I want to read a comment that I kindly got from Desiree in New York today. Actually, just before I went on the air. She said, "I wanted to thank Dr. Drew for his advice last week on how to help my sister who was addicted to nail polish remover. She is now doing much better and I would love to thank him so very much for his help."

And I want to thank you for sending in such a nice note, and God bless your sister. I`m glad she`s better. That is some heavy stuff.

All right. We`re going to go to your calls now. Eileen, North Carolina. Eileen, what do you got?

EILEEN, NORTH CAROLINA: Hi, Dr. Drew. Thank you for taking my call.

PINSKY: It is my pleasure.

EILEEN: I have a very close friendship, best friendship of 32 years. I`m 64, so that`s most of my best part of my adult life.

PINSKY: All right.

EILEEN: I And she had a massive stroke two years ago. And now, she`s just a shell of herself, just in a fetal position, and I feel so bad for her.

PINSKY: Oh, no.

EILEEN: And she just does not deserve to end up like this.


EILEEN: And your guest last night, James Van Praagh was talking about letting go of a loved one.

PINSKY: Yes. Yes.

EILEEN: How can you possibly go through the grieving process and let go?

PINSKY: It is so -- I got to tell you, it is so hard for people when there`s still a body sitting there, but at a certain point, you have got to understand, when the brain has been massively damaged, the person is no longer there. Does she have any response to the external environment?

EILEEN: She recognizes me. We make eye-to-eye contact and she kind of smiles.


EILEEN: And she tries to communicate, but it`s just kind of --

PINSKY: Right. She`s had a massive right -- you know, left-sided stroke is affecting the right side of her body, right?

EILEEN: Pretty much. Everything.

PINSKY: Maybe multiple areas of brain death. I mean, large areas of brain death. So, the person you knew is no longer there, even though there are remnants, and that`s really what the grieving part now is letting go of the idea that that`s the same person. It`s really something different now.

There are parts of her that are the same, but it`s something entirely different and it`s very, very hard for people with chronic illnesses and things when they`re in vegetative states or they`re altered massively by mental -- by, you know, brain injury. I would just tell you, do the best you can just to be present, be kind to your friend, continue to visit. Don`t abandon her because she is now different but realize --

EILEEN: I would never abandon her. She would be there for me.

PINSKY: Exactly. But realize that -- you know? I mean, here`s the message for all of us, leave very clear detailed description of how you want your medical care to go if something like this happens to you.

You should specify, you know, no tube feeding, no, you know, if I get bed sores, don`t -- whatever it is, you make it clear that you don`t want to end up like this even if there is, you know, any kind of awareness, you don`t want to live in a vegetative state where you have no ability to engage in life.

You can make those kinds of wishes clear. You really can. And you got to do that. All of us need to do that. And think about these things because it could happen to any of us. Thank you for that call.

I want to go to Amy who is in Oklahoma. I guess, she`s on Skype with me, right, Amy? Are you on Skype? There you are. Hey, Amy, what`s going on?

AMY, OKLAHOMA: I have a question. I`ve got a daughter who will be seven next month, and she kind of gets angry easy sometimes. Sometimes, we don`t even know why she gets mad, and sometimes, she will, like, grab and pinch herself, and sometimes, hit herself.

PINSKY: Right.

AMY: And I didn`t really know how to go about helping her --


AMY: -- through this.

PINSKY: Now, if you -- did you see our show yesterday where we talked about self-mutilation and cutting and that kind of stuff. This is the beginning of all that. This is that primitive attempt by children to regulate emotions that they can`t regulate. Let me ask you a couple of questions, did she have any major illnesses in her childhood, so far?

AMY: No. She has a speech problem --


AMY: -- and impediment that she gets therapy for.

PINSKY: OK. And did her pregnancy go OK? Was there any complications of pregnancy?

AMY: I had a terrible pregnancy with her, actually.


AMY: I was -- she was actually seven weeks premature.

PINSKY: OK. And does she have any specific diagnosis as it pertains even, say, to that speech impediment?

AMY: No, she doesn`t.

PINSKY: OK. So, I think the -- might be an important thing to ask -- does she see a speech pathologist now?

AMY: She does. Her school --

PINSKY: I would ask for a referral to a mental health professional have a full diagnostic workup, because something is wrong. This is a very -- you know, she might grow out of this I can`t say that it`s necessarily - - if she were 15 or 18, I`d say this is very serious, seven-year-olds use primitive means of regulating.

But it was worth your while to get a full evaluation out because research has shown if we intervene where there`s a significant problem the age of eight, it has a much better probability of diverting things from becoming more serious later. Thank you for that Skype. I appreciate you Skyping into us.

We`re going to take more calls after the break.


PINSKY: And welcome back. Let`s get right back into your calls. Amanda in Ohio. Amanda?

AMANDA, OHIO: Hi. I had a question. I mean, we`re from a catholic background. My father molested me and my sisters when we were younger. My mother is very -- my dad has now dementia and he`s on oxygen and I have to go and take care of him. He passed a lie detector test when I was, like, 14.

PINSKY: And he was the perpetrator?

AMANDA: Yes. He does not -- he doesn`t remember doing anything. But I`m dying to know why and how he could do this. And he`s sick now, and I hate taking care of him, but I love my mom.

PINSKY: Have you had treatment?

AMANDA: Yes. Yes. We were --

PINSKY: The important thing is I want to make sure you`re taking care of yourself. So, making sense of it, I mean, maybe he has a dissociative disorder, maybe that`s some part of him that disassociates and disconnects when he --

AMANDA: Well, he was an alcoholic and he was on drugs.

PINSKY: All right. Well, you there go.

AMANDA: He doesn`t remember doing it.

PINSKY: Right. So, he was loaded. I mean, that happens a lot. People that were victimized themselves have a high probability of being an alcoholic drug addict and when they are in their disease of addiction, alcoholism, they do all kinds of horrible stuff that they don`t remember.

And I`m sorry that you were in the line of fire, but I`m really sorry, but I`m glad you`re taking care of yourself. Let`s go now to Deborah. She is in North Carolina -- Deborah.

DEBORAH, NORTH CAROLINA: Yes, just wondering, I`m 58 and my dad`s, like, 89 now. And I got a couple instances where like, one time he asked if I would, you know, sit on his lap, and one time he touched, you know, pinched my bottom. And, I just wonder, does this happen with senior citizens and their adult children very often?

PINSKY: Listen. Listen. One of the things -- isn`t there a Simpson character that does this or something or a "Family Guy" character or something, but yes, when people`s frontal lobes don`t work right as they get old older, there can be some what`s called minimum cognitive change or some dementia, and impulses what we call de-repressed (ph), in particularly, the elderly males will touch and do things that are sexually inappropriate.

It doesn`t mean anything. It`s not directed at anything. It`s the brain discharging in the wrong ways. I`m so sorry. Again, another one in the line of fire. He didn`t mean anything by it. But don`t let him do it. It`s OK not to let him do it. Todd, quickly in Texas -- Todd.

TODD, TEXAS: Yes, thanks for taking my call, Dr. Drew.

PINSKY: Go ahead, Todd.

TODD: I`ve been diagnosed with severe social anxiety disorder.


TODD: And this went all the way back into high school.

PINSKY: Got it.

TODD: I`m sweating, fear of public. I mean, it destroyed my life as far as not being able to hold jobs.

PINSKY: Todd, Todd, I`m sorry. I`ve got very limited time. Are you on medication for it now?

TODD: No, not at all.

PINSKY: Have you been on medicine for it?

TODD: Yes, sir, I have.

PINSKY: And not working?

TODD: No, it never did work.

PINSKY: Is the sweating a big part of the embarrassment and preoccupation?

TODD: Yes.

PINSKY: OK. There are surgeries they can actually do where they clip the autonomic, under the arm for the hands and the neck here for the forehead, and they will take care of that sweating entirely. Look into that. You look online. Thank you guys for watching. I got to go. I`ll see you next time and taking calls. And guess what, Nancy Grace is up right now.