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Nancy Grace
Father Kills Man Molesting his 5-Year-Old
Aired June 19, 2012 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, live, Shiner, Texas. Daddy catches a child sex predator sexually molesting his screaming 5-year-old little girl, and he punches the perv to death. In the last hours, Daddy facing murder charges.
Bombshell tonight. The man who hears his 5-year-old girl`s blood- curdling screams races to save her. The case goes to a grand jury for homicide charges. Murder charges? The only thing this guy deserves is Father of the Year!
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This guy was raping my daughter, and I (INAUDIBLE) I don`t know what to do. I need a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) ambulance!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A man hears his 5-year-old daughter screaming at the top of her lungs.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Found her half-naked with a 47-year-old Gonzales (ph) man.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The father ended up beating the man to death with his bare hands.
GRACE: This perv got what he asked for!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Public opinion is that he`s Father of the Year.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I would have killed him 10 times worse.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t know where I live! I don`t know the address! I don`t know nothing, ma`am. I don`t know what to tell you. This guys over there freaking dying on me, ma`am. I don`t know what to do. I don`t know what to do!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The question, of course, is whether or not this father will be charged.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE)
GRACE: Now he is getting taken to the girlfriend?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The people of Shiner don`t need a jury on this one.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He got what he well deserved. And you can say that nationwide.
GRACE: District attorney, grow a spine!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This guy was raping my daughter and I (INAUDIBLE) I don`t know what to do! I need a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) ambulance!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Bombshell tonight, live, Shiner Texas. Daddy catches a child sex predator sexually molesting his screaming 5-year-old little girl, and he punches the guy to death. The man who hears his daughter`s screams races to save her. The case goes to a grand jury for homicide charges. Murder? The only thing this guy deserves is an award, a medal for Father of the Year!
We are live and taking your calls. Straight out to Martin Savidge, CNN correspondent joining us. Martin, explain to me -- this case has actually been taken in the last hours to a grand jury. What are -- what`s the underlying facts that would lead to any type of a homicide charge? I was going to say murder charge. This is clearly in the defense of a third person, his daughter.
MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Right. Exactly. I think a lot of people were shocked that it had to go to some sort of special grand jury, which is the case here because the regular grand jury had already been seated and was now being used.
So this was what brought it to the special grand jury, and they were obviously being told that there were homicide charges that may be being considered here. Most people would say, Look, this is outrageous.
It`s not that the father heard about this after the fact. He caught the perpetrator in the middle of the attack. The girl is half-clothed. He steps in. He stops, drags the man off, and in a fit of rage, then hits him several times in the head, and eventually, that leads to the man`s death.
It should be pointed out, though, even after the family witnessed this horrendous crime being committed on their young child, what did they do? They immediately turn around and begin rendering aid, CPR, trying to bring him back to life.
GRACE: Martin -- Martin -- isn`t it true -- put Martin up, please! Martin, you left out some very important facts, Martin Savidge! This guy - - his case goes to the Texas grand jury for homicide charges, but isn`t it true, when the rest of the family -- I believe the grandmother, the grandfather, the whole rest of the family is there -- when they run after the father to see what`s going on, isn`t it true they see the molester there, and his pants are totally pulled down, his genitals totally exposed?
There`s no doubt, even if that were the extent of the case, that that would be child molestation! I mean, it`s not like this guy made this up to explain or come up with a defense to murder, Martin!
SAVIDGE: No, you`re right. And the district attorney herself has said that never has she seen such clear-cut evidence that everything they gathered showed and supporter -- whether it be the physical evidence, when the young child was taken to the hospital, as well as the statements that were made by the witnesses and family members -- they all corroborated what the father said, which was capturing this molester in the act.
GRACE: But still, this father, who I consider to be Father of the Year, has charges go to a grand jury!
We are taking your calls. Right now, to Ellie Jostad. I want to go over the facts from the very beginning. Martin and I were talking about what may underlie a grand jury consideration. This father actually has a case that goes to the grand jury for felony charges, when he catches the molester raping his 5-year-old daughter! Ellie, what are the rest of the facts?
ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Right, Nancy. Well, what was going on here is that this is on the grandfather -- the little girl -- the 5-year-old girl`s grandfather`s ranch. They keep horses there. They keep chickens there. Allegedly, the little girl and her brother go off to feed the chickens. The rest of the adults are in another part of the ranch.
Then a witness says -- and there`s conflicting reports about exactly what happened at this point. But a witness says that, somehow, this alleged attacker, Flores, separated the girl from her brother, forcibly carried her into some wooded area, some bush there on the farm. That`s when this witness ran, got the father, said, Something`s going on...
GRACE: Ellie?
JOSTAD: Yes?
GRACE: Ellie, can you just please call it like it is? It`s clearly the little boy, all right, because they...
JOSTAD: Yes, could be.
GRACE: ... send the little boy and the little girl off to feed the chickens.
JOSTAD: Right.
GRACE: They go off. They`re all playing. This is a fun thing for them.
JOSTAD: Sure.
GRACE: The next thing you know, mystery witness runs to get his daddy because Mora Flores has taken -- picked up the 5 -- picked her up and carried her off to the woods! And he hears his sister screaming. All right, go ahead.
JOSTAD: Right. So there`s this frantic search, father looking in the woods for the girl. He hears her scream, runs to the source of the scream. And that`s when he said he saw Flores, pants down, in the act -- caught in the act of assaulting, raping his daughter, Nancy.
And that`s when he says he pulled Flores off his daughter, struck him several times. And from that point, we know Flores died almost right away.
A grandfather who says he jumped the fence, also running to save the little girl, said that when he got there at the scene, Flores may have been dead already. That`s how quickly this all happened.
GRACE: We are taking your calls. Out to Mason in Kentucky. Hi, Mason. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, wouldn`t any father beat the crap out of this guy? I mean, as a father of a 9-year-old and almost a 2-year-old -- I guess, first off, kudos to the little boy that runs and gets his dad. That`s awful (ph).
GRACE: True.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I mean, and kudos to the father. I wouldn`t be able to control myself. I wouldn`t -- I wouldn`t -- you know, I seriously...
GRACE: Mason, I agree.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I mean...
GRACE: I got a question. When you`re calling in, Mason, do you have a question? And how do you feel about a Texas grand jury actually considering homicide charges on this guy?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t have a question. I just wanted to say I don`t believe that they should press charges against the guy. The thought had even crossed their mind is ridiculous.
GRACE: I agree. I don`t know why he was even put to a grand jury, Mason.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: As an ex-prosecutor, would you want to press charges? Would you?
GRACE: Mason, I would not have put this to the grand jury. I would not have sent this to a grand jury because I believe you take things to a grand jury that you believe have a -- are a crime. You take things to a grand jury, unless it`s an investigative grand jury investigating the case, you know, like Whitewater up in Washington or something like that, where the grand jury was actually an investigative tool. They were subpoenaing documents. They were calling witnesses.
Typically, grand juries, Mason, are charging tools for the state. And you only take somebody to a grand jury when you are seeking a felony indictment! Mason in Kentucky, I agree with you.
We are taking your calls. Out to Dr. William Marrone, medical examiner, forensic pathologist and toxicologist, joining us from Madison Heights.
Dr. Marrone, I need you. Dr. Marrone, how can just a couple of punches to the head and the neck kill somebody? Because there`s no other evidence. There`s no gunshot wound. There`s no stabbing. This is not a murder!
DR. WILLIAM MARRONE, MEDICAL EXAMINER, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST (via telephone): Here`s the way this works. It`s defined forensically as blunt force trauma, which is impact of the body on surfaces or impact of items against the body.
And the force of items that impact the body disrupts tissue. They can sever spinal cords. They can deeply bruise the brain. And those objects can be tools, they can be rocks, they can be fists, or they can be automobiles. That`s blunt force trauma.
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers. Joining me, family law attorney Sue Moss, Jason Oshins, defense attorney in New York, Holly Hughes, former prosecutor, now defense attorney, Atlanta.
All right, Sue Moss, weigh in. Why a grand jury?
SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: I have no idea! He was caught raping the girl, of course, all hell was going to unfurl! There (ph) serves no public good to bring this case to the grand jury! The whole point of a prosecutor is to represent the people! The people have discretion! The prosecutors have discretion! They should have looked at this case and said, It`s never going further than somebody`s desk, and put it in the circular file!
I mean, this guy literally was caught with his pants down! All evidence show that these are good people who were just trying to protect their daughter! Nobody in Texas, nobody in this country would do anything other than what this father did!
GRACE: Sue Moss, you know how old my twins are right now. They`re 4- and-a-half. They`re approaching 5 years old. That`s how old this little girl was when this molester, Mora Flores, 47 years old -- he`s here in this country, I understand, legally -- picks her up forcibly and takes her to the woods, to the forest, to rape her.
Jason Oshins, this is clearly a case of defense of a third party.
JASON OSHINS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, no doubt...
GRACE: Clearly! Why should this go to a grand jury?
OSHINS: Yes, that`s -- you know, it really is the fundamental question. Why are you bringing it forth? You said it eloquently. It`s a chargeable act and a tool of the prosecution to do it. There was no need to do it. It was cowardly, it really was, because somehow, the prosecutor knew it was going to never going end up an indictable offense. It was cowardly.
GRACE: Hold on. Let me ask Holly Hughes. You and I have both presented cases to a grand jury. What`s the thinking? This guy clearly is trying to protect his 5-year-old little girl. A rape, a child molestation, a child rape is going on, yet he`s dragged to the grand jury, Holly!
HOLLY HUGHES, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Right. And you know, again, I know we all hate to disagree. We usually like to take each other on. But I mean, the facts are the facts, Nancy. There are other witnesses who said they heard the little girl screaming. What is to decide? This child is in distress. She`s screaming for her daddy. Daddy runs in there and finds this animal on top of his 5-year-old little girl? Of course he`s going to respond this way. There is no way it should have been presented.
GRACE: Straight out to John Phillips, KABC, joining us. John, in my mind, this is just a way of passing the buck. The prosecutor would not drop the case, but puts it off to a grand jury. Weigh in.
JOHN PHILLIPS, KABC: Yes. I`m sitting here in Los Angeles, which is the brain-dead jury capital of the world. And I took calls from my listeners, people in Santa Monica, Venice, places where you wouldn`t expect to have a blood-thirsty jury. And these women and men that were calling in wanted to punch this guy in the brain.
If they won`t convict this guy in Los Angeles, there is absolutely no way they`re going to convict him in rural Texas. It was a waste of time, and it increased the nightmare that this poor guy is going through to have to think about possibly facing murder charges? It`s unbelievable!
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This 47-year-old man attempting to rape his 5- year-old daughter.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) This guy was raping my daughter and I (EXPLETIVE DELETED), I don`t know what to do!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He`s screaming (ph).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Took the girl out into some brush and attempted to molest her.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Her father went to look for her and found her half-naked.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The 5-year-old victim had sustained some physical injuries.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Pulled this guy off his daughter, punched him repeatedly in the face and the head, and ended up killing him.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The child that is suffering still today because of a horrendous act that happened to her.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) I need some help.
911 OPERATOR: 911, state your emergency.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I need an ambulance!
911 OPERATOR: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I need an ambulance. This guy was raping my daughter, and I (INAUDIBLE) I don`t know what to do! I need a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) ambulance!
911 OPERATOR: OK, OK.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE)
911 OPERATOR: We`re going to try to help you, but you`ve got to give us directions to your house.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t know directions, ma`am! If I knew the directions, I would give them to you! (INAUDIBLE)
911 OPERATOR: No, because you`re calling on a cellphone. What county road are you on, do you know?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are back and taking your calls. Shiner, Texas, a man hears his 5-year-old little girl literally screaming, blood-curdling screams after a family picnic. He finds the perpetrator, Mora Flores, a 47-year- old from Mexico in our country, at that moment raping his 5-year-old little girl.
Let`s take a listen to the 911 call in full.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
911 OPERATOR: 911, state your emergency.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I need an ambulance.
911 OPERATOR: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I need an ambulance. This guy was raping my daughter, and I (INAUDIBLE). I don`t know what to do! I need a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) ambulance!
911 OPERATOR: OK, OK.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE)
911 OPERATOR: Yes, we`re going to try to help you, but you got to give us directions to your house.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t know the directions, ma`am! If I knew the directions, I would give them to you! It might take me a while to get them to you. But you can`t track down this call?
911 OPERATOR: No, because you`re calling on a cellphone. What county road are you on, do you know?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE)
911 OPERATOR: Sheriff`s office.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I need some help!
911 OPERATOR: I`m working on it, if you can hold on.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Come on, ma`am! What the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) are you doing? The guy`s dying on me!
911 OPERATOR: OK, tell me what you live close by to?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) I don`t know. I don`t know the directions nearby. I don`t have the directions nearby. I don`t know what to do!
911 OPERATOR: OK. When you leave Shiner, do you go toward Halletsville (ph) or do you...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) what directions at!
911 OPERATOR: Whose ranch are you on?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At my dad`s! At my dad`s ranch!
911 OPERATOR: What is his name? Does he have a home number?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Come on! This guy is (EXPLETIVE DELETED) dying on me! I don`t know what to do!
911 OPERATOR: Listen to me...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, my God! (INAUDIBLE) He doesn`t have a house number, he doesn`t have a house on his ranch! It`s just a ranch. I don`t know what to do!
911 OPERATOR: There`s nobody there that could go find out what road number you`re on?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Come on! This guy`s (EXPLETIVE DELETED) dying on me! I don`t know what to do!
911 OPERATOR: I need a road number.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... man who apparently committed murder as he was trying to protect his young daughter.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t know, ma`am! I don`t know (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When you hear your child scream...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I would have killed him 10 times worse.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are live and taking your calls. Shiner Texas, a man actually catches a sexual pervert molesting his 5-year-old little girl. He races to stop her blood-curdling screams, punches the perv in the head and face. He dies. And in the last hours, Daddy`s case gets sent to a grand jury on homicide charges.
We are taking your calls. Unleash the lawyers, Sue Moss, Jason Oshins, Holly Hughes. The reality is that now you`re going to end up having the pervert`s family probably suing for wrongful death. What about that, Jason Oshins?
OSHINS: Yes, certainly, Nancy, that`s possible. You know, one other aspect about the grand jury, why it`s necessary, and that`s to prevent vigilantism. You don`t want that to happen. You want to make sure that there is no rush to Justice.
GRACE: Put him up!
OSHINS: That`s what you don`t want, Nancy.
GRACE: Put him up!
OSHINS: I`m back.
GRACE: Oshins, the guy`s pants were down! His genitals were on display in front of a 5-year-old little girl! What are you talking about rush to judgment?
OSHINS: I`m talking about a group in any situation -- why the prosecutor took this to the grand jury at some level has to be to prevent vigilantism. You don`t want more than necessary...
GRACE: Did you hear...
OSHINS: ... force.
GRACE: ... the 911 call, Jason?
OSHINS: I heard it, Nancy.
GRACE: Didn`t you hear the father begging for the EMTs to get there?
OSHINS: I`m just pointing out...
GRACE: What vigilantism is that?
OSHINS: Nancy, I`m putting out the need for prosecutorial...
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This guy was raping my daughter and I beat him up. I don`t know what to do!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He says an acquaintance who was at the get- together took the girl out into some brush and attempted to molest her.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) ambulance (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A father punches a child molester and he dies, what would he get?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are back and taking your calls. Our to Jim Loggo (ph), morning host at KKTX. Jim, thank you for being with us. Jim is joining us from Corpus Christi, Texas.
Everyone, we`re talking about a Shiner, Texas, case where a father literally catches a sex pervert molesting his 5-year-old little girl, he runs following her blood curdling screams, punches the guy in the face and he dies. And today his case goes in front of a grand jury on homicide charges.
Jim Lago, what was the prosecution thinking that the -- hopefully the grand jury would not bring back a true bill?
JIM LAGO, MORNING HOST, 1360 KKTX: Sure. I mean the whole judicial system is about covering your behind, isn`t it? I mean, I thought this case couldn`t get any worse and then I heard that 911 call. That`s the most incredible thing I have ever heard. How frantic, how dramatic, how much begging for help can you get and he just killed a guy.
GRACE: You know, Jim Lago -- everybody, joining me from Corpus Christi, Texas. Morning host, KKTX.
Jim, here`s the deal. I presented -- I can`t even tell you how many hundreds, hundreds and hundreds of cases to grand juries. And I took cases to grand juries when I thought there had been a crime. When I read the police report, when investigate the case and I believe it`s a crime, you take it to a grand jury for them to hear the case, usually 25 to 45 people, they meet usually two -- one or two times a week in most jurisdictions and they hear the facts and they decide if there`s going to be a charge, an indictment. Then that indictment then goes to a petite jury, a jury of 12, that`s how it works.
But when I would see a case and say, this isn`t a crime, why did this have to go to a grand jury, Jim Lago?
LAGO: Nancy, that`s a question that I guess the district attorney of Lavaca County and the other two counties she`s district attorney for would have to give you -- when they rule it a homicide, what other recourse do they have? And it was the -- it was the medical examiner, was it not? I mean there are three things or four that they could pick.
GRACE: Well, there is such a thing as justifiable homicide. There is a thing of justifiable homicide. And you know, I grew up in a very small town --
LAGO: Maybe her --
(CROSSTALK)
LAGO: Maybe her -- prosecutorial discretion bag was empty, I don`t know.
GRACE: Bottom line this case goes to a grand jury in the last hours.
Out to Charmagne, Canada, hi, dear, what`s your question?
Hi, Nancy. I`m really pleased to talk to you.
GRACE: Likewise.
CHARMAGNE: I just think -- you are -- you really are the voice for all of the people and all of the children who may not otherwise be able to have a voice.
GRACE: Thank you.
CHARMAGNE: I have a comment and then a question. My comment, I`ll make it --
GRACE: OK.
CHARMAGNE: I have three kids now pushing -- my oldest is pushing 30, my youngest just turned 18, and I have said since they were born, if anybody ever, ever hurt my kids in that way or any other way, that I would either end up dead or in jail. And these Texas Rangers are the glowing best of what law enforcement should be and I just don`t understand how they could even possibly see this as a crime, when you are entitled to protect your family if someone comes into your house and is in a mood for danger or evil.
You`re allowed to protect your family then and you should be able to protect your family in any way. But if you walk up on someone --
GRACE: I agree.
CHARMAGNE: -- and they have your child screaming, with them doing horrible things to them, then I believe that you have every right to take that person on. And if anything happens because of it, it`s not your fault, it`s their fault, they started that.
GRACE: I agree. I agree. So what is your question as it relates to this case?
And everyone, we are not naming the father because that would reveal the identity of the little 5-year-old girl who was sexually molested.
Go ahead, ma`am, what`s your question?
CHARMAGNE: My question is, being the Texas Rangers, they`re supposed to be the shining law enforcement and they can always --
GRACE: Yes.
CHARMAGNE: -- get the bad guy and take him out.
GRACE: Yes.
CHAMPAGNE: And in this case, the bad guy was taken out for them, the good guy shouldn`t be --
GRACE: I tell you, it`s not the Texas Rangers that took this case to a grand jury, Charmagne. It is the direct attorney in that jurisdiction, Heather McMinn, that took the case to the grand jury. Whenever there`s a dead body, you`re going to find a police report on that one way or the other. You`re going to find a report, being an EMT report, an ambulance report or a police report on a dead body. And the Texas Rangers agree that there was no evidence that supported a homicide charge here.
Out to Lisa in Alabama, hi, Lisa, what`s your question?
LISA, CALLER FROM ALABAMA: Hey, Nancy. My question to you is, if this dad had controlled himself much better than I could possibly have done, what would the penalty of this man, what penalty would he receive? And could he have walked away from that?
GRACE: You mean the child molester?
LISA: Yes. If the dad hasn`t --
GRACE: He probably would have gotten 25 to life, and he would have -- I mean he would have probably done hard jail time, but you know, you could get some kooky jury, think O.J., tot mom, I don`t know what would have happened. But the molester would have probably gotten somewhere between 20 to life behind bars.
That`s the answer to that, Lisa in Alabama.
I`m just getting to Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst just -- psychoanalyst and author of "Dealbreakers."
Bethany, weigh in.
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST, AUTHOR OF "DEALBREAKERS": Well, two of your callers had made the comment that this father lost control. I would like to suggest that he did not lose control at all, rather he was extremely organized in protecting his daughter. And the caller`s question in the mindset of the prosecutor reflects a very sad trend on our judicial system, and that is that the voices of children are neglected and the voice of adults are prioritized over the needs of children.
And I`ll tell you what I mean. The question should be, what effect is the molestation going to have on this little girl and that she witnessed this primal scene of her father killing another man in order to protect her? That is the primary question. The question is not whether or not the father committed homicide, he was merely protecting his father -- his son, I mean excuse me, his daughter.
And if I could make a comment about homicide in general. What we see, Nancy, with cold blooded murder is that people who commit homicide in this manner are often very relieved, cool, and collected after the commission of the crime. That is in direct contradiction to this father, who was disorganized, overcome, traumatized, screaming on the phone. So I think he was rather organized when he committed the act in terms of protecting his father -- his daughter, he functioned highly and then became disorganized afterwards which tells me --
GRACE: Right.
MARSHALL: -- that it was an act of protection not of intentional cruelty on another human being.
GRACE: Back to the lawyers, Sue Moss, Jason Oshins, Holly Hughes.
Sue Moss, the prosecutor, Heather McMinn, may have taken this to a grand jury in the last hours in the hopes that they would no bill, or in other words, instead of her going, you know what, case closed, this is not going to ever see the light of day, this father is innocent, I`m not taking it to a grand jury. She could have taken it to the grand jury with the hopes that they would do that for her.
What about that, that they would present a no bill instead of a true bill? What about it, Sue?
SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY & CHILD ADVOCATE: What type of political pressure was this woman under? But I got to tell you something, it doesn`t matter, because you do the right thing. And I`ve got to tell you, I`m still obsessed about Jason Oshins` vigilante comment.
Now if there was a cooling off period between the time of the rape and the time of the protection of the daughter when the man died, then perhaps maybe, maybe there`s a vigilante argument in favor of bringing this to a grand jury, but that was not, it was immediate, as soon as he saw this man with his pants down, his underwear down, his daughter half clothed, that`s when he went into action, there was no cooling off period, this was not vigilantism, this was a man protecting his child.
GRACE: You know, I want to follow up on something Sue Moss was saying, Holly Hughes, before you became a defense attorney, you also were a prosecutor.
I`d like to see Holly Hughes, please, along with the other lawyers.
Holly, I don`t recall our elected district attorney, Lewis Slaton, the longest serving at that time, elected D.A. in this country, ever taking a case to the grand jury in the hope that they would no bill it, in other words passing the buck off to them.
HOLLY HUGHES, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, maybe she wasn`t passing the buck, Nancy. What all of us are saying is, we`re taking this guy`s word at it. I mean we don`t do that in criminal cases. We don`t just roll up to a scene and goes, well, he says he shot him in self-defense so it`s OK. She sent it so they would hear the witness testimony. They would judge credibility and determine if what the father says really happened.
GRACE: OK, number one, I don`t know what you`re talking about that the possible target may have brought into the grand jury. We`re picking it up right here.
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(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This guy was raping my daughter and I (EXPLETIVE DELETED).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The public opinion is that he is father of the year.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When you hear your child scream, and if it`s a terrified scream --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He is the father of the year.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was traumatized in numerous ways, you are charged with enough testosterone and energy to power a small city.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Instead of throwing the case into the trash can, the prosecutor takes it to a grand jury, after daddy follows the sounds of his 5-year-old little girl`s blood curdling screams find her in the process of being raped by a child molester -- child molester, he punches the guy, the guy dies. Now daddy, instead of getting father of the year award, gets this case into a grand jury.
To Marc Klaas, president and founder of KlaasKids Foundation, wasn`t the prosecution`s way of getting the grand jury to make the decision as opposed to her making the decision?
MARC KLAAS, PRESIDENT AND FOUNDER, KLAASKIDS FOUNDATION: Well, listen, I think she should have made that decision, Nancy. I mean, it`s all pretty clear as to what happened here. But one also has to consider the favor that this young father has done for all the other little girls who will never be subjected to this particular offender, not to mention the prairie justice that has been served for the young victims that came before the rape of this little girl. Because I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that he has raped other children prior to this, his last sex crime against an innocent victim.
GRACE: You know, Marc Klaas, you`re so right. Because he didn`t just wake up that morning and go, I`m going to rape this 5-year-old girl, he knew the father, he knew the family. They were all out at this ranch together having a good time. And there`s no way this was the first time he had molested a child and I say good riddance, Marc Klaas.
KLAAS: Yes, and we`ll save an awful lot of money at trial. The good people of Texas are not going to have to let their money be wasted trying to justify and excuse the hideous criminal actions of this particular individual. He`s right where he needs to be, Nancy.
GRACE: To Lisa Lockwood, former police detective and author.
Lisa, a caller called in about the Texas Rangers, they`re not the ones that make the charging decisions. You as a former police detective know that.
LISA LOCKWOOD, FORMER POLICE DETECTIVE, AUTHOR OF "UNDERCOVER ANGEL": That`s right.
GRACE: You investigate the scene, you fill out a police report and you take that to the district attorney`s office, and then they take over. Police or Texas Rangers --
LOCKWOOD: Exactly.
GRACE: -- they`re not the ones that send the case to a grand jury.
LOCKWOOD: No. And they did a complete investigation on the scene. They were able to gather all the evidence, they were able to interview the witnesses, have corroboration, listen to the 911 call, and make the decision that it didn`t need to happen. This was an attack that was vicious and hellacious and they made the right decision. Father of the year, absolutely.
GRACE: To Carol in Florida, hi, Carol, what`s your question?
CAROL, CALLER FROM FLORIDA: Hi, actually I just heard someone bring up about he probably may have -- well, may have had a record, but I can`t stop wondering, like, did this guy, this molester have any kind or record? Because it`s highly unlikely he just started molesting a week ago or two weeks ago, whenever this happened. And why didn`t they look into this? I mean before even taking it to the grand jury? I mean it just -- it makes me so angry that they even did that without looking into his background.
GRACE: You know, Carol in Florida, the first thing I said, I agreed with Marc Klaas is this guy, this is not the first time he`s done this, but he is from Mexico, so we don`t know what all his record is. I have been trying to find a record on him. Nothing is coming up, but I guarantee you, Mora Flores, age 47, this is not his first time molesting a child.
The good news is, the grand jury did the right thing and did not charge, but why did it go to grand jury?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I need an ambulance.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I need an ambulance. This guy was raping my daughter and I (EXPLETIVE DELETED), and I don`t know -- I don`t know what to do.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The 5-year-old victim had sustained some physical injuries that were absolutely consistent with all of the witness statements.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls, we are live in Shiner, Texas, where a man saves his daughter in the midst of a sex attack on his 5-year-old daughter, punches the guy in the face and head, the guy drops dead.
You can hear from the 911 call, out to you, Martin Savidge, CNN correspondent, joining us, that he`s desperately trying to save the pervert.
MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, he is.
GRACE: And I know how you are, Martin, you want me to say the alleged child molester, you don`t want me to call the guy a pervert. You know what, I believe the grandmother and the grandfather and the father, that there he was with his pants pulled down. Not only that, the whole family - - isn`t this true, Martin Savidge -- tried to do CPR on the pervert?
SAVIDGE: They did, indeed. I mean that`s one of the -- excuse me, one of the most shocking aspects here on top of what we`ve already heard, is that they have seen the crime being perpetrated on a young girl. And then what did they do? They turn around and try to be the lifesavers of the same man who they`ve watched carried out this horrific act. And that is a remarkable statement about the family. And then of course you`ve already heard the 911 call, and the great sense of extreme remorse the father was under as he desperately tries to seek help for the same person.
GRACE: But, Martin Savidge, why does the father have to be on pins and needles while this is taken to a grand jury? Thankfully the grand jury did not charge him, Martin. But why did it have to go a grand jury?
SAVIDGE: You know, that question was asked, I asked it of the D.A., she said this was part of the process that was necessary to go through, but it doesn`t make sense.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The 5-year-old victim had sustained some physical injuries.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The guy was raping my daughter.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The father punches a child molester and he dies. What would he get? Father of the year award.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Of course, Jason Oshins claims that it was vigilante justice and he wants that stopped but a lot of us believe that this man deserves father of the year after he stopped a child rapist molesting his 5-year-old daughter. The rapist died. Today, daddy got put before a grand jury. His case, that is luckily, the grand jury did the right thing.
Out to ruby in Canada. Hi, Ruby. What`s your question?
RUBY, CALLER FROM CANADA: Hi, I just want to know how the hell did they come to this conclusion of this poor father being put before a grand jury? He --
GRACE: The good news is, Ruby, that at least the grand jury made out of regular people like you and I chose not to charge him. My stunner is why was his case taken to a grand jury, Ruby? I agree with you 300 percent.
Out to John Phillips, KABC, what about it, John?
JOHN PHILLIPS, KABC: Yes, I think the D.A. should answer the question, what is a man supposed to do when he hears his kid screaming, he sees Chester the molesters on top of her with the fruit out of the loom, and the cops say that all of the facts check out. What is a reasonable person supposed to do? The D.A. never answered that question.
GRACE: You know, again, lawyers, Sue Moss, Jason Oshins, Holly Hughes.
Jason, please don`t start up about vigilante justice again right now, OK? But let`s talk about why the prosecutor may have chosen to send this to a grand jury. Was it basically so the buck would stop there instead of on her desk?
JASON OSHINS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, my first comment was that it was cowardly. There`s too much political correctness. Sometimes tough decisions need to be made. You would have made it, Nancy.
GRACE: Well, I got to tell you something, Jason, the good news is they called in a special grand jury so it could be over with more quickly. All I know is that he is at home with his family tonight.
Let`s stop and remember, Army Sergeant Russell Kurtz, 22, Bethel Park, Pennsylvania, killed Iraq, from a military family, Bronze Star, Purple Heart, Army Commendation, loves skiing, deep sea fishing, baseball, football, dreamed of a criminal justice degree, being a DEA agent. Leaves behind parents, Jill and Roger, sister Stephanie.
Russell Kurtz, American hero.
Thanks to our guests, but especially to you for being with us. Dr. Drew coming up next.
Everyone, I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern, and until then, good night, friend.
END
