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Dr. Drew
Sandusky: What`s Next?; Octomom Exposed
Aired June 25, 2012 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: Here we go.
Jerry Sandusky -- guilty, guilty, guilty of child sexual abuse. He is in prison on suicide watch.
What about the victims? How do they move on?
We`ll talk to the son of President Ronald Reagan, Michael Reagan, who himself survived sexual abuse.
Plus, I`ve got Sonny from "General Hospital" here. Maurice Benard and his wife talk about raising four children and keeping them safe from household products that can make kids high or worse.
And Octomom, Nadya Suleman, she joins me. She has a sex tape, a new, much younger boyfriend.
She says things are a lot better. She is taking your calls. We`ll see about that.
Let`s get started.
(MUSIC)
PINSKY: Jerry Sandusky remains in jail tonight. He was convicted on 45 counts of child sex abuse this weekend. Likely, he is going to spend the rest of his life in prison.
Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jerry said to me, "I`m prepared to deal with whatever happens."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As he walked into the courtroom, he sat down, he did not look at his family, who were sitting pretty so much his right toward the back.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And then all of a sudden, I looked and there was victim number six.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I then looked to my right, I looked at Dottie Sandusky as the first verdict came in, the guilty verdicts came in.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When I looked at him during the verdict, I could see tears running down his eyes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When the counts were read, she sobbed in silence, and his eyes filled with tears. He was the lone victim in that courtroom we believe.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Dottie Sandusky just started to blink, repeatedly started to blink over and over again. Seated next to her, her daughter, Kara, remained without emotion. The same with her son, Jeff.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But here in this courtroom, those survivors, those survivors who testified, are getting justice.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: An interview that Sandusky did with Bob Costas may -- that was on NBC -- may actually play a role in a possible appeal. The tape played for the jury apparently had inaccuracies due to an editing error.
So, take a look at this video, you`ll see for yourself.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BOB COSTAS, NBC NEWS: Are you sexually attracted to young boys, to underage boys?
JERRY SANDUSKY, FORMER PENN STATE COACH (via telephone): Am I sexually attracted to underage boys?
COSTAS: Yes.
SANDUSKY: Sexually attracted? You know, I enjoy young people. I love to be around them. I -- I -- but no, I`m not sexually attracted to young boys.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: I didn`t see much monkeying there, I`ll tell you what.
Pennsylvania`s attorney general says Sandusky got a fair trial. She stands by the decision to play the video. I don`t see much problem with that video myself.
But the question I guess is: was justice served? Are there any winners in this case after all?
Joining me to discuss this, attorney Lisa Bloom, author of the book "Swagger", and himself a child abuse survivor and son of former President Ronald Reagan, Michael Reagan.
Lisa, I`m going to start with you. Do you think appeals are likely? And one of the rumors I heard was one of the appeal possibilities is on inadequate counsel or something like that because of some of the bizarre things his attorney was saying.
LISA BLOOM, ATTORNEY: I think an appeal is likely. His attorneys said they will appeal. Ineffective assistance of counsel is extremely unlikely to prevail as a theory on appeal though, Drew. It`s a very low standard in the U.S. There are attorneys who have slept through trials and the Supreme Court has said, you know what, that`s effective assistance of counsel. There are attorneys who have shown up drunk for cases in death penalty cases and Supreme Court has said, that was sufficient.
So, I think these attorneys are going to pass that very low bar and that`s going to be an argument that`s going to prevail on appeal.
PINSKY: So, Lisa, you are in the clear, right? Is that what you`re saying? You`re fine, you can appear however you like in court now? I`m just saying.
But listen, one of the things I did want to bring up though was the -- not just the appeal but the manner in which the sequestered jury apparently was able to get its hands on information. You said something on this show about them finding out about what Matt Sandusky said. And it turns out they did. Isn`t that a problem in and of itself?
BLOOM: Yes. Those are the two -- the two good arguments that I see on appeal are Matt Sandusky coming out, very oddly, on the day that the jury was deliberating. They were only deliberating for 20 hours and he decided to come out publicly and said that he was abused by his dad during that deliberation. That`s obviously prejudicial to the defense, that something they`ll raise on appeal.
And also, the defense says that thousands of pages of documents were turned over to them at a late hour and they didn`t have time to review them all. You know, I don`t know why the court didn`t continue the trial in order to give the defense that time. That is typically done. I don`t know how important those documents are but the defense will make much of that.
And look, you know, we want to have fair trials in this country. We want attorneys to have time to review everything. So I`m surprised that the court didn`t give that time just to eliminate that issue on appeal. Most judges would have done that.
PINSKY: And, Michael, I want to go to you. A lot of people seem to have this misconception that somehow, now that the victimizer, the perpetrator, is brought to justice, the victims are somehow relieved, closure to all of this.
How do you help understand what`s the --
MICHAEL REAGAN, SON OF PRESIDENT REAGAN: There`s never really closure. What you try to do is put it in a compartment in your life and hopefully you never have to go there again. There is relief there has been part of a burden lifted from you, because this is all about burden.
PINSKY: Yes.
REAGAN: This is about child asked to keep the bourbon -- burden -- keep the child abuse to themselves and carry that burden all of their lives. And we don`t carry it very well. So, that`s what it`s all about.
So, the relief is the guy who abused me is now going to jail. But let me just tell you something, the average amount of children, one abuser will abuse in their lifetime is 117. This could be the tip of the iceberg.
PINSKY: That`s exactly right. That`s why when people say, are we just talking about sexual abuse more now or do you think it`s more pervasive? Is -- or is it a magnitude of a factor of two?
One perpetrator abuses hundreds, potentially, and then a certain percentage of those become perpetrators and it spreads.
REAGAN: Sixty percent of those who are sexually abused were, in fact, become abusers themselves. If you understand that when a child is abused he is 8 years old, 9 years old, 10 years old. You are taking them at a very young age of their life and you are completely changing --
PINSKY: You`re changing their brain.
REAGAN: The thought process.
PINSKY: Got to the take a break.
Next, the monster may be behind bars but the victims, as we are discussing here, their healing lasts a lifetime. So, please stay with us. We`ll take some calls after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALLIE, DISMISSED SANDUSKY JUROR: I thought he was creepy and he didn`t look like he was taking it too serious. I thought that was a red flag like he was admiring them like they were his lovers.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Wow. That was a juror commenting on Jerry Sandusky`s behavior in court.
Joining me again, Lisa Bloom and also joining us is the son of President Ronald Reagan and himself a victim of abuse, Michael Reagan.
Michael, tell us the story. How old what you? What happened?
REAGAN: Really take you back, my parents divorced when I was 3.
PINSKY: Yes.
REAGAN: So I was between two homes. I was in boarding school as a young kid, the Hollywood crowd sent us all to boarding school.
When I was in third grade, my mother put me into an afterschool program, the first time I spent like days at home after school. And what she didn`t New York the man who was running it was a pedophile. I was looking --
PINSKY: Did he groom you? Was he --
REAGAN: I was looking for that father image.
PINSKY: Yes.
REAGAN: Taught me how to throw a baseball. Taught me how to throw a football. Taught me, you know, how to be a young boy who Ronald Reagan would be proud of.
And when I took second place in a yo-yo tournament, nobody got first but by the time I got home that night, he had exchanged my second place for a first place finish, my parents framed it put it over my bed. Ultimately, what would happen, because that began the process of being sexually molested by about three days a week. I`d be the last one he picked he would take home at night.
PINSKY: Wow.
REAGAN: Ultimately, he took me up to the Santa Monica Mountains and had me take my clothes off. And he took photographs of me.
And three days later, he said he was going to take me to dinner, told my mom and instead, took me back to his apartment and in his apartment, he had a -- what I now know is a dark room. And took a piece of paper, put a pair of tongs and moved it from one pan to a second pan to a third pan, what came up was a photograph of the Santa Monica Mountains, I had never seen it magic to a kid.
PINSKY: To see the picture come up.
REAGAN: To see the picture come up. He said, would you like to do one? I said yes. And he put the tongs in my hand, he put the paper and the tongs, he moved my hand from the first pan to the second pan to the third pan and what came up was a naked picture of me. And he put his hands on my shoulder like this and said, wouldn`t your mother like to have a copy?
My life ended that day, walked away from God. I have walked away from family. It took me six years to get my mother to kick me out of her house, moving in with my dad. And I took it out, of course, on my dad and Nancy and everybody else around me.
And I would not tell anybody until April 12th, 1987, I told my father what had happened to me as a child. And that was the first time I told anybody, I told my wife just before that, told my mother just after that.
But it is something I lived with during my dad`s governorship, his presidency. I worried about those photographs.
Seven years ago, doctor, I got a letter from the system of the man who sexually abused me who just died, he was in his 80s, said he was evil the day he died as the day he molested me and said, Michael, you can -- she said, Michael, you can be rest assured now the photographs have now finally been destroyed. He kept those photographs from 1953 until seven years ago.
PINSKY: Disgusting. You say, you can imagine probably other kids were in those photographs, too.
REAGAN: There was because the dark room, as I look back, the dark room, hanging from the lines, were pictures of other kids, you know. And in fact, what he had is he had a trunk that was full of photographs of children that he had taken over the years.
PINSKY: These are soul murderers.
Lisa, do you deal with these guys court very often? Do you hear stories like this? I know unfortunate realities of my work, I have to hear these things all the time. Not everyone is as well put together and courageous as Michael to be able to stand up in public and really support other victims.
What`s your take on all of this?
BLOOM: Yes, I have represented many survivors of child sexual abuse, going back to the early 1990s against the Catholic Church, when nobody believed that anybody in the Catholic Church could possibly do something like this, we were up against a wall of silence. I`ve sued schools and a lot of institutions where children are molested.
I tell you, Michael, you are very brave. I`m very proud of you.
PINSKY: Yes, me, too.
BLOOM: I don`t know you but I`m very proud of you for speaking out, because you are going to help people. This is the kind of crime that flourishes only because of silence.
By the way, in the Sandusky case, let`s not forget about the 14 years of people covering up for Sandusky and why? Because they put college football ahead of children`s lives. I`m talking about campus police, local police, the district attorneys, university administrators -- people who saw children being raped with their own two eyes or heard reports of it from credible adults or the victims and failed to act.
This still goes on in the 21st century. And I`d like to see child endangerment charges being brought up against those people. No more child abuse. No more. We all have to stand against it.
PINSKY: Lisa --
REAGAN: If I could jump in, the worst of all is not the university or the Catholic Church, it`s the institution of the family that protects and I write in my book, "Twice Adopted," they protect Uncle Charlie over the child more often than not.
PINSKY: Yes, either through silence or denial --
REAGAN: Absolutely.
PINSKY: Or overt.
REAGAN: Look at Sandusky`s wife.
PINSKY: Yes.
REAGAN: I mean, the fact -- does she know it was going on? She -- yes. I believe she knew what was going on but she did not want to know that she knew what was going on.
PINSKY: In her heart she knew.
REAGAN: Yes.
PINSKY: Well, you guys, I didn`t have time to get to calls, I apologize.
But, Michael, your story was so compelling. And I -- again, this -- this sentencing of Sandusky and people like you stepping up changes the conversation for the victims. I hope --
REAGAN: Can I just tell people who want help? You can call 1-800- 4ACHILD. They have hot lines, call them and start the process of healing.
PINSKY: Absolutely. There`s treatment out there. There`s -- this doesn`t have to be -- it`s a soul murder but there`s treatment for it and you can come back and flourish.
Lisa, thank you as always.
BLOOM: Thank you.
PINSKY: Now, I`m going to change gears, we are going to talk next to Sonny from "General Hospital." I saw him the other day at the Emmy Awards.
I`m, of course, speaking about Maurice Benard. He has four kids. He actually let me into their home to check out some hidden dangers that frankly could be in your house as well. We`ll discuss that.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: All this week, HLN is helping people live better now, from finance, to health, children safety, to parenting and relationships. That`s something we try to do every day on this show. We want you to have the tips and tools too better your lives, spend time with us here with HLN, and hopefully here on the DR. DREW SHOW.
And walk away, better, smarter, happier and we certainly hope healthier.
Now, I had, this weekend, had the honor of presenting at the Daytime Emmy Awards.
Maurice Benard from "General Hospital" was there and his lovely wife, Paula.
You guys are big winners this weekend. It was fantastic.
MAURICE BENARD, GENERAL HOSPITAL`S "SONNY": Five Emmys. It was -- it was amazing.
I mean, you know, Best Show, especially, to win Best Show, for me, was fantastic and for Joe Phelps, beautiful.
PINSKY: It was really nice. And everyone was very gracious in their acceptance speeches, really kind of a lovely event.
My favorite part of the show that no one got to see but I got see you is two walked in just as his name was being announced as a nominee and I thought, oh, man, that was good timing.
M. BENARD: Well, you know it`s never -- best actor is always at the end.
PINSKY: It was the beginning this time.
M. BENARD: You know why --
PINSKY: You made it.
M. BENARD: We made it. Yes. Yes.
PINSKY: Just in the nick of time.
Well, I`ll tell you, the other thing I`ve done with you guys, is just before the Emmy, I spend spent time at your house. We are looking at household items that could be used by young kids, middle school age, high school age and college age to get high -- those dangerous stuff around the house. You guys very graciously allowed me to look around your house and learn not just what you guys need to look out for but what parents thought need to think about as well.
Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: When you imagine the kitchen we might find that kids could get into, abuse? I don`t mean they get poisoned but they would intentionally use to get high?
M. BENARD: Out of all this stuff?
PINSKY: Anything. When you think about it?
PAULA BENARD, MAURICE`S WIFE: Hand sanitizer.
PINSKY: Hand sanitizer was in the news lately. And you have some of that. They got to use a lot of it. But you`re right. Hand sanitizer is to watch out for.
M. BENARD: What about this?
PINSKY: Yes, butane. Absolutely. These propellants and these aerosols. They absolutely use. This is just a plain old computer cleaner, they will inhale this. Yes.
Glue, of course, the old-fashioned sniffing glue. I think people are aware that these hydrocarbons actually dissolve the front part of the brain. So, Freon you get from the air conditioning. Glue, this is all bad stuff.
Lighter fluid, think about that? Inhaling that? They will put it in a towel, take it in a bag, inhale it like they inhale gasoline and causes a very intense hallucinogenic high.
And I noticed you had some -- communicating with your kids on a dry erase board. Some of these markers, they will sniff these, too.
M. BENARD: No.
P. BERNARD: Paint back in the day.
PINSKY: Paint is --
P. BERNARD: Dating myself.
PINSKY: No. No, and for some reason, they use the metallic paints, seem to like that better, maybe something about the affect, spray it into a towel and inhale it.
Yes. I see you got any propelled paints, any spray-on paint, got to be very, very careful.
And again, keep in mind, gasoline, they`ll soak a towel.
M. BENARD: I know gasoline, yes.
PINSKY: They put it in a paper bag and they`ll huff it. It`s crazy. Yes, it is nutty, kids will get into the stuff.
Sometimes, usually it is kids you are already worried about, but the kids, depressed, having trouble. But sometime out of the blue, it will be a kid, like I can`t believe my kid got into the -- you know?
M. BENARD: Then what happened? Do they get -- they get hooked on it? How does that work?
PINSKY: This butane I have seen is actually sudden death syndromes from this, they will die suddenly while inhaling the stuff. Obviously, these things are flammable and whatnot as well.
I have seen kids getting going on inhalants and they can`t stop. It`s kind of unusual. It`s really hard to stop because their judgment gets so badly impaired by it, but it`s not the usual thing. It`s usually just abusing. They`re just trying to get high on something.
But sometimes, they`ll get some momentum and they can`t stop. That`s bad news then.
So here we are in the bath radio. And my first order of business when I look at somebody`s bath room is obviously prescription drugs. In your case, you just have the nausea medicine.
They take a big dose of can have very nasty side effects, muscle tightness and unpleasant mood. You know, the thinking changes. The big issue in most people`s medicine cabinet is painkillers, sleeping medication and anti-anxiety benzodiazepines.
We`re all together too casual with these medications, kids are get nothing them early. They are profoundly addictive, get rid of them or put them under lock and key and have a conversation with your kids about these medications.
Cough syrups and those things, the Dextromethorphan in there, they`ll drink a couple of these and they get very high. And that`s a very common thing kids do these days.
P. BERNARD: Aren`t these the ones you have to show your ID to buy? Some medicine now?
PINSKY: That`s right. Mostly, it is this version this cough syrup in a pill basically, triple Cs, they used to buy boxes of them, take a big dose and basically taking a large dose like PCP meets methadone, a bad combo, a bad combination.
Thing to watch out is acetaminophen, there is a complex for these things, you have plain old acetaminophen, but eight of this, any of us took down eight right now, we`d be dead in three days. It can massively shutdown your life.
I know you guys have bath salt, these are bath salts. These aren`t the things that people are abuse. These are actually bath salts, you put these in the bath, your kids won`t snort these, won`t get anything out of these except a snore head. That`s not what they`re talking about.
The stuff in smoke shops is called methylenedioxypyrovalerone, which is not in this. So, don`t worry about your actual bath salts. They`re not a big deal.
Something you don`t think about this is mostly alcohol. Yes. People will drink whole bottles of this, this there is a lot of alcohol in this one bottle and I have patients that are trying to get around being noticed as having used and you don`t smell it on the breath.
M. BENARD: Wow.
PINSKY: Tons of alcohol.
Nail polish remover, a common thing to abuse, we had one patient drinking some of this stuff. So, this is mostly, again, something they --
P. BERNARD: Worth drinking it?
PINSKY: No, it`s going to get them sick. But this is really something that you don`t think about as something they might get into, but they do get into this, inhaling it.
So, everybody, be careful in your bathroom, pay attention to what is your medicine cabinet, send a message to your kid, these are dangerous compounds. They can hurt you. These are not things to be taken casually.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: And I so appreciate you guys letting us walk around, to think about those things and maybe send a message to other parents.
We talked to your kids afterwards a little bit.
Paula, you were saying your middle school aged daughter was -- she`s rather forthcoming. She was delightful, and you were surprised by that.
P. BENARD: I was very surprised, she doesn`t usually speak up, she was quiet. Home schooled most of her life, her first couple of years in school -- and middle school, what a tough year to do it in. I was amazed how much she spoke up.
PINSKY: She was the one who said she knew kids doing this stuff. I think it was the cough syrup, wasn`t it?
P. BENARD: Yes.
M. BENARD: Yes.
PINSKY: Robo tripping, it was called, she was familiar with and thought it was stupid, but kids did.
M. BENARD: She is not doing it. I know that.
PINSKY: You`re sure of that, Maurice?
It does, though, bring up a really interesting thing, a point I like to make all the time is don`t ever say "not my kid."
M. BENARD: I know.
PINSKY: Don`t ever say that. You won`t be vigilant then. You`ll be in denial and you just can`t be. You can never tell when something -- it is an accident when they get around the right kids, sometimes, the right circumstances, and somebody shows them something cool and what`s big deal, it`s in mom`s medicine cabinet, how bad could it be, or it`s a psycho stimulant like Adderall or Ritalin and somebody says, well, Jill has been on it since she was 12, how bad could that be? Helps you on your chemistry test and they don`t foresee the risk.
M. BENARD: I can`t believe people drink Listerine.
PINSKY: (INAUDIBLE)
M. BENARD: I didn`t think of that being alcohol.
PINSKY: Vanilla extract, too drink --
M. BENARD: That tastes good, right?
PINSKY: I wouldn`t really want to drink alcohol. There`s all kinds of crazy stuff that has alcohol and that people will us if they really want to use alcohol.
P. BENARD: I`m surprise she had knew what she did not my kid, I wouldn`t have thought she knew half of what she did.
PINSKY: That`s good. So, you got to keep her talking. Keep her talking.
They have, by the way -- these two have four delightful kids that are very successful, doing great. But even so, you cannot be less than vigilant all the time with your kids.
Well, Maurice, thank you so much for letting us do this. Congratulations on the Emmys and he is actually a little under the weather now, people may or may not know. He hides everything behind this beautiful smile and I want him to get home and go to bed.
Paula, thank you so much for letting us meet your kids and letting us into your house.
P. BENARD: You`re welcome.
PINSKY: Seeing you guys at the Emmys was just great.
All right. Up next, we`re going to switch gears yet again.
Nadya Suleman is here. She`ll tell us why she turns to pornography and what is next for her and the 14 kids -- her house now is in foreclosure. It`s Octomom and your calls after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: Nadya Suleman, also known as Octomom, in the last month, her house has been foreclosed, she has gotten a much younger, new boyfriend, and she has entered the world of pornography. She says she is doing it to provide for her 14 kids and insists it`s a step in the right direction. Is it?
I`m not so sure. We will find out when we hear from her, next.
(MUSIC)
PINSKY: All right. Nadya Suleman is her. Her first porn is out, I believe on the Internet, is that right?
NADYA SULEMAN, OCTOMOM: Yes, "Octomom, Home Alone," available on wicked.com.
PINSKY: All right. I want to warn people at home this is going to be a rather adult conversation because Nadia has decided to move on into that world and on one hand, I`m very -- I want people to go buy this thing to support you because your kids need resources, your food bill is $1,000 a month.
SULEMAN: No, it is actually 3 or 4,000.
PINSKY: $3,000 or $4,000 a month. You`ve got -- God knows how much of a mortgage you`re going to have to come up with, and no job, and you`re refusing government assistance.
SULEMAN: Many jobs. I have many jobs.
PINSKY: Well, tell me what those are.
SULEMAN: There are so many -- besides this video, which I`m very proud of, actually, and it has been the most empowering, liberating thing I have ever done.
PINSKY: Well, it has changed how you appear.
SULEMAN: Right. More confidence.
PINSKY: And we look at the video, show a little piece of the video so you can see that she`s -- this is not the woman who`s telling us she is completely celibate.
SULEMAN: I am, still.
PINSKY: All right. You`re still celibate, but you`re alone with this. You`re not with a male.
SULEMAN: No. Right.
PINSKY: So, it`s different than what people might think of as a pornography.
SULEMAN: It`s atypical. Right. It`s very, very --
PINSKY: All right. And you have a bunch of other ways collecting income.
SULEMAN: Right. Right. Yes. endorsing --
PINSKY: We`re talking about $5 or $6,000 a month nut just to keep your kids afloat. Why won`t you take government assistance? You`re entitled to it.
SULEMAN: I had. I had. In January, I was on food stamps. This is like the last month of it.
PINSKY: OK. Why?
SULEMAN: Because there are so many projects.
PINSKY: You`re earning -- are you earning too much to get food stamps?
SULEMAN: There`s amazing projects lined up now right now that I`m eligible for it.
PINSKY: Are you getting paid for this porn?
SULEMAN: I have not received any money yet.
PINSKY: Where are these incredible sources of income coming from?
SULEMAN: So far, "You Stream," which I`m doing every Sunday night.
PINSKY: All right. "You Stream" doesn`t pay?
SULEMAN: Through advertisements, it does.
PINSKY: You made any money from that?
SULEMAN: Yes. I`m not going to get into details of that.
PINSKY: But you`re making money?
SULEMAN: And then, I`m also promoting the coupon company called saveeveryday.com Octomom.
PINSKY: OK.
SULEMAN: And then, a payday loan, which is amazing to me and it`s called ctomom -- octoloan.com.
PINSKY: And I heard you talking about octoloan on Howard Stern.
SULEMAN: Right.
PINSKY: And you said what struck my ear is, you said you wouldn`t even be eligible for --
SULEMAN: I joked.
PINSKY: -- because you don`t have a job.
SULEMAN: I joked.
PINSKY: And that makes me crazy.
SULEMAN: I was joking.
PINSKY: OK.
SULEMAN: Makes you crazy because --
PINSKY: It makes me crazy because I`ve tried to help you all year long, and it feels like a two steps forward and three steps back.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: All right. Nadya, do something for me. All right. When you first came in here, I asked you to -- you were psyched (Inaudible). A lot of people don`t realize you did patient assessments of a psychiatric hospital.
SULEMAN: Right.
PINSKY: And I said, imagine we`re not admitting Nadya Suleman --
SULEMAN: Right.
PINSKY: And you did an assessment on Nadia. That was quite good. You said she had a general anxiety disorder, a little OCD.
SULEMAN: Yes. OCD.
PINSKY: A little trauma stuff. Trauma through your mom or something?
SULEMAN: Yes, maybe.
PINSKY: OK. Maybe, something. OK, fine. Now, here`s what I want you to do. Let`s reassess.
SULEMAN: Reassess it. Sure.
PINSKY: How is it going now? Well, we got the same symptoms of anxiety, a lot of OCD features, now tremendous financial stress, and now she`s in porn.
SULEMAN: OK, seriously.
PINSKY: Is the patient doing better?
SULEMAN: Yes. You know why? Can I reassess myself?
PINSKY: Please.
SULEMAN: Thank you so much. General anxiety disorder significantly gone down.
PINSKY: All right.
SULEMAN: Because I got hooked like a fish on a hook in regard to the world all around seeing me as the opposite. You know, imagine knowing the truth of who you are.
PINSKY: OK.
SULEMAN: The world all around seeing you completely different.
PINSKY: OK.
SULEMAN: And so now --
PINSKY: But now you`re a porn star. Is that different?
SULEMAN: I`m not a porn star. Listen to me. So, now, the positivity, everything is churning, because they`re starting to learn there`s nothing I won`t do to take care of my family. And in regard to this --
PINSKY: I`ve always known that about you, though.
SULEMAN: The people don`t.
PINSKY: Is it stripping? Is it prostitution, bank robbing? How far do you go, Nadya? I`m just saying.
SULEMAN: You`re completely being pessimistic.
PINSKY: I`m tired of trying to be positive.
SULEMAN: You have to be. There are so many positive opportunities that are --
PINSKY: All right. Let me take some calls.
SULEMAN: Coming my way.
PINSKY: Let`s go to Brandy in Mississippi talk to you. Brandy, go right ahead.
BRANDY, MISSOURI: Brandy is from Missouri.
PINSKY: I`m sorry, Brandy. You go right ahead.
BRANDY: That`s OK. Hi, Dr. Drew. I have a lot of respect for you. I don`t watch you a whole lot, but when I do watch it is real cool. But, Nadya, is that your name?
PINSKY: Yes.
SULEMAN: Hi. How are you? How are you, Brandy? Hi.
BRANDY: My question to you is once you, you know, had the -- all the press and stuff that you had regarding your pregnancy and then once you had the babies and all of that, has that not occurred in your life, had you not opened your life to the world and -- would you have -- with those doors, the doors that were opened to you like as far as the pornography, would you have explored that part of your life?
PINSKY: It`s a great question, Brandy.
SULEMAN: Never. Never. From the beginning, I knew it was a publicity -- I didn`t know anything about the industry, but I was harassed by -- I don`t know if I should say their name.
PINSKY: No.
SULEMAN: It was a different company.
PINSKY: Somebody was asked --
SULEMAN: -- constantly for their own publicity, and (INAUDIBLE) opportunists in my mind. And so, I ignored it. I laughed it off. It wouldn`t stop. They were harassing me for years. So, this is something very, very different. I -- I -- this is a company --
PINSKY: You were in control of it?
SULEMAN: Yes. Not only that, but this is a company that is the most professional and respectful company and they never once approached me ever.
PINSKY: I get it, but the question she`s asking though is, would you open that door?
SULEMAN: Oh, no. No, not at that time. Of course not.
PINSKY: And so -- why now then and what`s the next -- my concern, Nadya, is what`s next? Now, you`re saying no man in the video as well.
SULEMAN: No.
PINSKY: I see men coming.
SULEMAN: I don`t.
PINSKY: I do, because you`ll do anything for your family, what won`t you do?
SULEMAN: Not like that. I won`t do that.
PINSKY: All right.
SULEMAN: That is with the boundaries. I won`t cross those boundaries.
PINSKY: Linda in California, very quickly. Linda, we got about 30 seconds.
LINDA, CALIFORNIA: Hi, Drew. Hi, Nadya.
SULEMAN: How are you? Thank you for calling.
LINDA: Nadya, I was just wondering, was that your last resort to do what you did on the pictures?
PINSKY: That`s a good question, too. Is that it? Last resort?
SULEMAN: You know what? This is the truth. Prior to going into that project, I was -- I was obviously -- I`m going to be lying if I said I didn`t want to try to generate some revenue from this.
PINSKY: Of course. You`re desperate, my dear.
SULEMAN: Here`s the thing. I had no clue what it would end up being, such a -- it would be such a positive experience.
PINSKY: OK. OK. Stop right there because I have to take a break. We`re going to talk to the woman that coached you on this who you say has made this a more positive experience.
SULEMAN: Can I say something really important?
PINSKY: Very quick.
SULEMAN: I`ve always feared and runaway from my own sexuality.
PINSKY: All right. So, there may be a positive silver lining to all this. We`ll talk about that and more calls, after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: Nadya Suleman says she made porn -- made a porn to save her family. Now, joining us, Jessica Drake, who coached Nadya for her first porn. We`re calling it a video, I guess. This is an online download, whatever it might be.
Also, I`ve got my "Loveline" co-host, Simone Bienne, psychosexual therapist. Nadya, you say this was a positive experience. That`s sort of where we ended that last segment.
SULEMAN: Right.
PINSKY: A, why? And b, why will you do more of this?
SULEMAN: A, why was it positive? Because prior to doing it, I`m severely anxious and nervous and shy.
PINSKY: Really? Slow down.
SULEMAN: I`m very -- I`m a shy person.
PINSKY: Shy we don`t get, but anxiety, I think that one, yes.
SULEMAN: When I`m driving, I drove there, and I was so nervous and when I arrived, I had no idea that the crew would make me feel so incredibly comfortable.
PINSKY: And Jessica was the part of that?
SULEMAN: Oh, yes.
PINSKY: And Jessica was coaching you --
SULEMAN: Yes.
PINSKY: Was she a good student or did she --
JESSICA DRAKE, COACHED NADYA FOR PORN VIDEO: She was really great. I kind of came about this in a roundabout sort of way. My partner, Brad Armstrong (ph), was the director of Nadya`s project. And I have done a lot in the educational side of sex lately in my career with Wicked.
I direct a line of instructional DVDs. And Nadya was given one of those on female masturbation before her shoot. I met with her several times for make-up tests and wardrobe fittings and things like that. And regardless of what maybe I had thought of Nadya before I met her, when I met her, she became very real to me. And I was there for the shoot, and I felt obligated to help her.
My time in the adult industry has been amazing, from my standpoint. I`m contracted to Wicked Pictures. We`re distributing Nadya`s movie. And, I`ve been allowed a lot of growth, not just as a performer but onto the production side. And I wanted her first time in this business -- it is a big step for people to be involved in it in any area, regardless, if it`s a solo venture or if you`re having sex on camera.
I just wanted her experience to be as positive as possible, and I wanted her to be able to really take something out of it, really get something out of for herself.
PINSKY: All right. She says it puts her more in touch with her sexuality. Simone Bienne, I want to go to you. You`re a psychosexual therapist. I have concerns that Nadya -- although, there may be certain aspects to this that she finds positive, there might be not such a glossy underbelly to this, what do you think?
SIMONE BIENNE, DR. DREW`S CO-HOST, "LOVELINE": I feel incredibly saddened by all of this, actually. I want to go and create a TV show just for Nadya so that she can celebrate all her good qualities like her intelligence and her ability with children. She`s the new Super Nanny. She doesn`t have to go down the porn route.
And what makes me incredibly sad is having met with so many women who either shutdown their sexuality or then act out their sexuality because of some kind of emotional trauma. This is incredibly shame-enhancing. This isn`t good. This isn`t a good message to give to your children. This isn`t a good message to give to society.
It -- it really, really saddens me. And I`ve spent time with you Nadya. I think you`re a bigger, better woman than this, and I think you`re being exploited, and I think you are smarter and there are better ways to go and earn money.
PINSKY: Let me refrain that even a little bit and say, you know, one of the things you said is you don`t like Octomom and you want to be out of the public. Why don`t just get a simple job and get out of the public eye?
SULEMAN: OK. I have tried numerous times. I almost finish my license in personal training. And then, I found out how much I would be earning. And that`s not going to support two children, let alone 14.
PINSKY: Why not take some social service aid?
SULEMAN: I had --
PINSKY: -- in addition to food stamps.
SULEMAN: Yes, but the maximum of that is and I declined that because the max you go is $900 a month. That will help with you one or two children. Fourteen children, so I`m it`s a catch-22.
PINSKY: Have you met with a social worker and talk about this?
SULEMAN: I have. I have.
PINSKY: OK.
SULEMAN: And they were actually shocked it took me over three years.
PINSKY: I know. Listen, you are the super woman. Nobody can take that away from you.
SULEMAN: Nobody. Every mom is a super woman.
PINSKY: I`m playing devil`s advocate, people out here are going to look at you and doubt your sincerity, because you said, I don`t like octomom. I want to stay out of the public eye. Now, I`m doing a porn.
SULEMAN: The problem being is that I`m the first to admit and take accountability for eating my words, because at the end of the day, all that matters are my children.
PINSKY: I get that.
SULEMAN: I will do anything to support them.
PINSKY: All right. Let`s take some calls. Kat in Maryland -- Kat.
KAT, MARYLAND: Hi, Dr. Drew and Nadya.
SULEMAN: Hi.
KAT: First of all, Sonya, your co-host, she said it perfectly how I feel about --
PINSKY: Simone.
KAT: Simone?
PINSKY: Yes.
KAT: She said it perfectly, but I originally called to encourage Nadya, because I was the subject of school bullying. And the things that I hear from the media and from just regular people toward you is no different than bullying in school except it`s on a much larger scale and you always handle it with grace.
You never fire back no matter what they say. And I just want to encourage you to keep hold of who you are and not listen to that. I worry about what this choice is going to do because you`re kind of really putting a target on yourself.
PINSKY: Right. And Kat, I think that`s right. Simone is shaking her head vigorously. I mean, no one doesn`t like Nadya, at least, that know her. Everyone wants to help her. And I know Jessica, you`re trying to help.
I get your sincerity but the choices she`s made all along make for great anxiety and she may burn you out, too, Jessica. She sort of burned me out. I`ve tried to help. But Simone, I let you sort of answer back to Kat there.
BIENNE: I mean, one thing that I wanted to say, and I`m not at all diminishing what she did, it`s just that there are people that are Mormons, sadly, in America, who have 10, 12, 14 children. There are people -- my father came from a family where he had 10 brothers and sisters. None of them went into porn, and they made do.
And for you, you are a gorgeous woman. You are so lovely. You are bright. You did psych testing. You`re smart. Don`t do this. Because when you -- you know, and you`re in a new relationship. This doesn`t do your soul any good. And you`ve got to give that message to your kids, that you are this incredible mom, not that.
You are selling your body, because this is what you are doing. And exposing yourself like this doesn`t get you in touch with your sexuality. It is shame enhancing. And I speak to you from experience.
DRAKE: As far as the --
PINSKY: I`m going to hold you, Jessica -- I`m going to let Jessica and Nadya respond to what Simone just said after the break. I want to continue this conversation just for a few minutes and take more of your calls. So, take a quick break and be right back with this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: All right. We are back with Nadya Suleman. She has her first pornographic video download available now, and Simone was leaning into her pretty good. And did you want to respond to her?
SULEMAN: I -- I disagree.
PINSKY: OK.
SULEMAN: I respect her. I get along with everybody, so I don`t want to disrespect her in any way. But she is entitled -- everyone is entitled to their opinion. It doesn`t mean --
PINSKY: But respond to it.
SULEMAN: I respond that I don`t believe that I was exploited. I believe I had full control and power over my choice. I take full accountability, and I`m proud of it.
PINSKY: OK.
SULEMAN: I`m proud of it. A lot of positive -- more positive came out than any negative.
PINSKY: Do you have a boyfriend now?
SULEMAN: Doors have --
PINSKY: Do you have a boyfriend now?
SULEMAN: Doors have opened like --
PINSKY: Other business opportunities.
SULEMAN: Many business opportunities --
PINSKY: In the sex industry?
SULEMAN: No.
PINSKY: Other ways?
SULEMAN: Many other ways.
PINSKY: People have very --
SULEMAN: With the music.
PINSKY: There`s a high level of interest in your boyfriend. What`s going on with that?
SULEMAN: The thing with my -- I`m not going to talk about in detail, but he`s just a very special friend.
PINSKY: A special friend.
SULEMAN: The good thing is, both of us share the same values, and I`m going to say one thing is, I am still celibate. I`ve been celibate for 13- 1/2 years, and I have no plan of rushing anything. And the good news is that we both go to church together. We take all the kids every Sunday, and we don`t -- we have -- again, we share the --
PINSKY: You light up a little bit when you talk about that. I think you`re more into it and you --
SULEMAN: No, no. Not physically though. Physical intimacy, I`m very, very, very, slow with that.
PINSKY: You let me know when it gets consummated, OK?
SULEMAN: OK.
PINSKY: OK.
(LAUGHTER)
PINSKY: Jessica, you want to respond to Simone as well?
DRAKE: I do disagree with a lot of what Simone was saying. I think Nadya is very intelligent. I think she is very beautiful, but Simone was sort of recognizing the stigma that many people do associate with this industry.
I mean, I`ve had an amazing ten years in the adult industry. And I`ve been able to move forward and grow in a direction that maybe I didn`t quite expect that I would when I first got in. Being with Wicked Pictures has been amazing for me, my career, my own personal growth.
But I think something that people also don`t realize is that this is something that Nadya did on her own and then proceeded to look for distribution for. This isn`t something that was bid on like other companies were doing with her in the past. I think she saw an opportunity to turn this into more opportunities down the line and she is a --
PINSKY: I hope -- listen, nothing would make me happier than this family getting out of their financial distress.
Let`s take a quick call. Linda in Colorado -- Linda.
LINDA, COLORADO: Hi, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Linda.
LINDA: Nadya.
SULEMAN: Hi. How are you?
LINDA: And Simone. Nadya, please don`t go down the porn path. It`s just -- it`s not worth it to your soul, to your well-being. I`m wondering if maybe you could do something with -- I know you have at least one degree, college degree. I`m wondering if you can do something with that.
PINSKY: The problem I think she has, I`ll speak on your behalf, is that you have a $6,000 a month nut between housing and food, right?
SULEMAN: More than that. And 14 children. So, if I went took school and I still owe student loans, I would -- which would benefit my children more.
PINSKY: Could you do something in -- you worked as psych tech.
SULEMAN: Right.
PINSKY: I guess you can`t make $6,000 a month doing that?
SULEMAN: And I would be gone all the time. Other opportunities I`m being given, if I travel a couple days out of the month, I`m home with them the rest of the time.
PINSKY: This is so stressful.
SULEMAN: It`s not stressful. For me, I`ve never been in such a good place in my life, emotionally, psychologically, with my children.
PINSKY: OK. Simone, I got less than 30 seconds. Give me a 15-second wrap-up here.
BIENNE: Look, I wish you the best of luck, Nadya. I hope we`ll be speaking to you. I hope that Dr. Drew will continue helping you. But I`m sorry, I think there`s some delusion around this and I fear for you.
PINSKY: OK. Nadya, we`ll check in with you again.
SULEMAN: Thank you.
PINSKY: You burn me out, but I`m --
(LAUGHTER)
SULEMAN: I always burn you out.
PINSKY: Jessica, thank you.
DRAKE: Thank you for having us.
PINSKY: I hope it helps. The idea is to help Nadya, but I just got a terrible feeling about the direction you`re going. I don`t know what`s next.
More calls on various topics after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So, you`re no longer doing drugs?
CHARLIE SHEEN, ACTOR: I`m not, no.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But you do drink?
SHEEN: Who doesn`t?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, some people --
SHEEN: We (ph) drink.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: -- people who`ve been through rehab don`t drink.
SHEEN: Yes. I don`t believe in rehab anymore.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You still -- that`s one of the things you stuck to?
SHEEN: No. Yes. it`s just not for me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That of course, Charlie Sheen on ABC`s "Good Morning, America," still using alcohol, not a big surprise. I`ve seen no evidence that this man has really embraced sobriety. He is clearly better. He`s under psychiatric care. His mania has subsided, probably from medication and stopping the cocaine.
But an addict, particularly, as severe an addict as Charlie, if they`re still using substances, just -- the clock is ticking on when that bomb is going to explode again. And you can see, he seemed a little more sped up than we`ve seen him in recent weeks. So, I`m actually concerned about this man.
Take some of your calls. Aaron in Wisconsin -- Aaron.
AARON, WISCONSIN: Hi, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Hi, Aaron.
AARON: Yes. This is from my experience. I`m a person in recovery myself and just knowing how it is, you know, just a matter of time, like you just said.
PINSKY: Yes. I mean, let me interrupt you and say I`ve treated over 10,000 addicts in my career. And I`ve seen many, many try to do what Charlie is doing and none succeed, and it can be really dangerous for somebody. Like, that`s the really sad part.
I`m not telling him how to live his life, but the fact that he has been as sick as he has been is pursuing substances to this day is a harbinger for potentially life-threatening problems. That`s the scary part. Did you have a few rounds before you finally got the message that abstinence was the --
AARON: Yes. I have relapsed many times, and I`ve tried that I`m not going to do drugs, but I`m just going to drink.
PINSKY: Right.
AARON: Now, it eventually catches up to you and I had enough alcohol one night, well, you know, you don`t have to do (ph) drugs tonight.
PINSKY: Right.
AARON: You know, it`s just -- it`s just a matter of time. And I`ve it tried over and over.
PINSKY: What does the big book say many have tried -- how is that --
AARON: Many have tried, I don`t remember the exact quote but yes. Many of us have tried but, yes, I mean, you have to --
PINSKY: It`s hats off -- hats off -- hats off to anyone that can succeed because so far, many have tried and none have succeeded. So, thanks for that call, Aaron. I appreciate it.
We`ve got Jason in Alabama -- Jason.
JASON, ALABAMA: Yes, sir.
PINSKY: What do you got?
JASON: How much more difficult is it for a celebrity to grasp the concept of humility that in my experience a successful 12-step program needs?
PINSKY: Boy, that is a great question. And it`s a sophisticated question, too. And, you know, to be adequately in recovery, you know this is what you`re raising, Jason, I`ll ask you what your story was in just a second, if you don`t mind, which was two ingredients that are categorically necessary and two of the most difficult things for people to get their head around, well, three, really.
The one thing that people don`t understand is for somebody to get sober, it`s not just about not doing drugs, they have to be willing to change everything in their life and everything about who they are. That to have to be willing to put it on the line -- they may not have to change all of it. They have to be willing to change everything.
Imagine, I came into your life and said, oh, you know, the job you have, maybe the relationship you`re in, you got to be willing (ph) that all go, and by the way, who you thought you were, different. It`s going to be completely different now, and you`re going to have to start listening to some other people and take direction from people.
That`s tall bill to fill, tall order. So, that`s one aspect that people don`t really pay attention to. The other is that honesty and humility. Those are two ingredients that it`s hard for addicts to get to, right? And I imagine you had some struggle with both those things, Jason?
JASON: Of course. Well, after the job left and after, you know, the relationships all crumbled and significant health problems, you know, really, nothing left to lose. I was exposed to treatment again for the third time.
PINSKY: Yes.
JASON: And I had great counselors, and more importantly than that, exposed to people who are in the recovery program who used like I used, drank like I drank, and were happy, and being able to see that it was possible.
PINSKY: It`s possible.
JASON: It didn`t keep me from doing the work.
PINSKY: It is a program of attraction, my friend. I`m so glad you`re sober now. But your question was, how difficult is it for a celebrity? Yes, it`s really difficult, because they don`t lose everything like you had to lose. They have people keeping them supported and enabled. They have jobs and money, and you know, why not?
And they have people that treat them and keep them kind of patched together so they never fall too far down. So, it is more difficult and as a grandiosity and narcissism that`s -- so there`s a risk for it.
Nancy Grace begins right now.
END
