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Nancy Grace
Texas Woman Tries to Sell Baby On Line
Aired June 26, 2012 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, live, Dallas, Craigslist, eBay, Amazon Marketplace, Webclassified.com -- they`re used every day by millions to sell anything from furniture to cars. But selling your baby boy?
Bombshell tonight. Not only does Mommy put her 4-month-old baby boy Eden up for sale on line, but actually finds a buyer. Then she reduces the price. She puts her baby on sale!
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How much is your baby worth?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) get close to $4,000.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s how much a 26-year-old mom allegedly asked for on line to sell her baby boy.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A woman in Dallas is accused of trying to sell her baby.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) never sell (INAUDIBLE) child. All (INAUDIBLE) was tell (ph) her what she was (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The woman who answered the ad says she knew something was up after talking to the mom.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Prospective buyer allegedly gets cold feet and calls police.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... looking for a better home for him. She wanted somebody that could take care of him, and you know, do the things that needed to be done.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She said that, I didn`t want to go the legal way, which was 100 percent not true.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Her apartment manager found the baby home alone.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Twenty-six-year-old Brittany Hill is arrested after apartment managers looking to collect her rent find the apartment empty except for her 4-month-old baby boy.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s kind of hard just being here and not having him, you know?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: You know what? Don`t cry.
And tonight, live, Seattle suburbs. State troopers get a frantic 911 call from to a scenic mountain pass on I-90 when a husband shoves his wife from the family car on a high-speed interstate, then takes off, leaving his wife for dead.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A Washington man allegedly shoved his wife out of their moving car on a busy highway. Cops responded to a report of a woman being thrown from a vehicle on Interstate 90.
He shoved his wife out of their moving car.
Reports are 911 operators received a call about the husband driving erratically in the other direction. A trooper soon pulled the husband over and put him in the back of the squad car. Reports are the husband managed to break out of the patrol car, breaking the back seat window, and then attacked the trooper who pulled him over. The cops located the wife on the side of the interstate...
-- thrown from a vehicle...
-- shoved out of their moving car.
But it didn`t end there.
According to reports, the husband escaped and then assaulted a police officer.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.
Bombshell tonight, live, to Dallas. Craigslist, eBay, Amazon Marketplace, Webclassified.com -- they`re used every day by millions to sell anything you can think of, but selling your baby boy? Not only does Mommy put her 4-month-old baby Eden up for sale on line, she finds a buyer, and then she reduces the price. That`s right, she slashes the price on her baby boy, putting him for sale on line.
We are taking your calls. Straight out to Michael Board joining us from San Antonio, WOAI. Michael, what happened?
MICHAEL BOARD, WOAI: You know, this woman knew exactly what she was doing. Nancy, this is her third child. The first one is in the custody of her mother. The second one was adopted through an agency. And that was about $4,000. So in this case, she knew exactly about the money that comes along with the adoption.
She decided to cut out the middleman in this case, put an ad on something called the PennySaver and asked for $6,500, allegedly...
GRACE: Whoa! Wait a minute! Wait a minute! did you say PennySaver.com?
BOARD: Penny -- PennySaverUSA.com. It`s not eBay, not...
GRACE: She couldn`t even go to Craigslist or eBay, it was PennySaverUSA.com?
BOARD: We`re talking about a child and this is PennySaver.
GRACE: OK, what can you tell me about her slashing the price on the baby? She finds a buyer for the baby at $6,500, but then she gets antsy. She wants the money right then. She cuts the price to $4,000, Michael Board, a cut-rate price, a blue light special for a 4-month-old baby boy?
BOARD: Well, she found a woman in Florida who was interested in this. This woman in Florida had found an adoption on line before, said she was trying to do this again. And she had a conversation with Brittany Hill on line. They exchanged e-mails. They talked on the phone.
And Brittany told her, OK, we want to do this. We want to do this right away. You`ve got to meet me tomorrow.
This woman`s in Florida, and she wanted her to meet her tomorrow in Dallas. And she said, Don`t worry about it. Just bring your ID and bring $4,000. And the woman in Florida said, Well, this is kind of strange, you know? I don`t really know how they do it in Texas. Is this the right way?
So you know, thank God, she called CPS and asked them, Is this the right way to do this? And obviously, CPS -- Child Protective Services -- in Texas, said, No, this is not the right way to do it. This is absolutely illegal, this woman is doing.
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers. Joining me tonight out of Chicago, Kelly Saindon, out of Miami, Bradford Cohen. Joining me out of New York, Evangeline Gomez.
All right, go ahead, Bradford. Just bring your ID, bring your photo ID? I don`t think she even said photo ID. Bring your ID and $4,000 cash and the baby`s yours.
BRADFORD COHEN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, there`s some gray area here because we don`t know...
GRACE: What? What gray area?
COHEN: ... if that $4,000 -- well, what is -- what if that $4,000 was going to go to attorneys` fees? What if she was going to meet her in Texas, go to an attorney`s office and do it a legal way? We don`t know what her intentions were. Was she going to pocket that $4,000? Was she going to pocket that $6,500? We have no idea because it wasn`t said, like, I need $4,000, I`m going to just hand you over the baby.
GRACE: Bradford -- put him up, please!
COHEN: She said, Bring a photo ID...
GRACE: Bradford!
COHEN: Yes?
GRACE: Just hold on a moment. Hold on. Do you think...
COHEN: For you, I`ll hold on.
GRACE: ... a lawyer would go along with that? What lawyer in their right mind would go along with this scenario?
COHEN: Well, we have no idea if she was going to hand the baby over right then. Maybe she was coming with the money to hire the lawyer to start the paperwork and to get the process rolling.
GRACE: That doesn`t even make sense. That`s not...
COHEN: Why doesn`t it make sense?
GRACE: ... what it says! Because those aren`t the facts. Michael Board, refresh Bradford Cohen`s recollection of the facts very quickly, please.
COHEN: Refresh my recollection.
BOARD: She had a conversation with this woman in Florida. She says, You want the kid, come and get him. You can get him right now. Four grand. That`s it, bargain basement price. Bring four grand and your ID. We`ll make the exchange. That`s what Brittany Hill told this woman in Florida.
GRACE: So for all I know...
COHEN: That -- that is -- that`s not what was (INAUDIBLE)
GRACE: ... she could have shown up with her Sam`s Warehouse card as her photo ID. And you`re trying to tell me there`s a lawyer involved? There is no lawyer involved. Look, when I asked you for a defense, Bradford, I didn`t ask you to create a work of fiction! Work with the facts that we`ve got.
COHEN: I`m working with the facts that we have. And the fact is, is that he just elaborated on an e-mail that was sent. He didn`t tell me exactly what`s in that e-mail. So if we`re going to go with the facts, then let`s go with the facts. Tell me exactly what`s in the e-mail. He didn`t say...
(CROSSTALK)
COHEN: ... on over, I`m going to hand you the baby.
GRACE: OK, Bradford. If you want to hear him again...
COHEN: I do.
GRACE: ... Michael, one more time for Bradford. Listen!
COHEN: The exact wording.
BOARD: Look, I don`t have the e-mail in front of me, and it`s...
COHEN: Exactly.
(CROSSTALK)
BOARD: ... right in front of you, but I can summarize (INAUDIBLE) and I can say (INAUDIBLE)
COHEN: That`s where we run into trouble, when we summarize and when we assume.
GRACE: Bradford -- Bradford, Bradford, number one, it`s not the reporter`s fault. And number two, just because he can`t read you the e- mail verbatim doesn`t change these facts. So typically...
COHEN: Right. Who cares about the exact wording?
GRACE: OK, last chance. Bottom line...
COHEN: Who cares about the exact wording?
GRACE: OK, cut his mike!
COHEN: The bottom line is...
GRACE: Now, Evangeline, regardless of whether Michael Board has it in front of him, that doesn`t change the fact that she writes the mom, the would-be adoptive mom, and says, You know what? Forget the $6,500. You can have the baby right now if you show up with ID and $4,000 cash. That`s what we know because that`s what`s in the police report.
EVANGELINE GOMEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, the issue is that the state of Texas allows parents to collect expenses and fees that are involved in an adoption. That is the law. That is the exception.
GRACE: Put her up!
GOMEZ: So we need to make sure that we keep that in mind.
GRACE: Evangeline, what are you talking about?
GOMEZ: That`s the law in the state of Texas.
GRACE: Repeat.
GOMEZ: She could collect this and she could turn over this money to an adoption agency. Remember, she had an option before, where there was $4,000 that was involved. We don`t...
GRACE: OK...
GOMEZ: ... have all the facts in this situation...
GRACE: Actually...
GOMEZ: ... so we just can`t run with everything that we hear.
GRACE: Actually, you`re twisting the adoption process in order to exonerate this woman.
GOMEZ: I am not, Nancy! I`m not trying to exonerate this woman!
GRACE: To Robert...
GOMEZ: These are the facts!
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: To Robert Kasky...
GOMEZ: These are the facts!
GRACE: ... adoption law expert, Robert joining us out of Deerfield Beach. Robert, please explain.
ROBERT KASKY, ADOPTION EXPERT (via telephone): Well, it sounds to me, if these allegations are true, this young lady has taken basically an experience which is designed -- the adoption experience, which is designed to benefit the child first, the adoptive family second, the birth mother and society at large, and turned it into a commercial transaction, like the sale of a bag of corn.
There are laws which govern the -- the -- the adoption law -- there are adoption laws. Those laws prohibit the purchase and sale of a baby, which means that if the allegations are true, the birth mother who allegedly sold the baby committed a felony. The lady -- anybody who bought that baby, even not knowing what the law is, also committed a felony.
And these laws are in place so that adoptions are done through licensed, supervised entities like adoption agencies and lawyers who are authorized to do them to make sure that the most important party in this adoption, the child, is protected at all times.
GRACE: And isn`t it true, Robert Kasky, adoption law expert joining us, she had put a child up for adoption in 2009? She knows the drill, and she knows that the birth mothers don`t pay money.
KASKY: Absolutely. I mean, I`ve been doing adoptions for 39 years, and never in my entire existence have I heard of a birth mother hiring an adoption agency or a lawyer. That is patently absurd.
GRACE: So her story that she was trying to avoid legal fees is ridiculous why?
KASKY: It`s ridiculous because the adoptive family is the party that pays the agency and the lawyers to provide the services to legally consummate an adoption. The birth mother, on the other hand, it`s quite the contrary. She is the recipient of financial assistance, in many cases, to assist her throughout the pregnancy. So she`s on the receiving end, not on the giving end, other than placing the baby itself for adoption.
GRACE: To Ellie Jostad...
KASKY: No money in her pocket (ph).
GRACE: ... our chief editorial producer. Ellie, what more do we know?
ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, Nancy, something to keep in mind here is that the red flag went up when this would-be adoptive mother put on the brakes. She was not -- according to her story, she was not trying to buy a baby. She was trying to legitimately adopt a baby, as she`d done with her earlier child.
So when Brittany Hill sent her a text message in the middle of the night, even though they`d already been discussing getting paperwork together, how they were going to do this the right way -- she says she gets a text in the middle of the night, at 11:00 PM, that says, You know what? Show up tomorrow, $4,000, give me an ID, I`ll give you the baby.
So that was the problem. And then she went to CPS and said, This doesn`t sound right to me. Is this legal, the way this birth mother is asking me to do this?
GRACE: You know, to Alexis Tereszcuk, senior reporter, Radaronline.com. Alexis, if you look at the video we have of Mommy -- dare I call her that -- at first, we see her throwing a blanket over her head as police are arresting her for trying to sell her baby boy, 4 months old, on line. Let`s see the blanket video, Liz.
But then, the next thing you know, when cameras from TV show up, she`s suddenly granting interviews. Why the change, Alexis?
ALEXIS TERESZCUK, RADARONLINE.COM: Well, she had said that she wanted to only make some money. But she admitted, she said, I`m in dire financial straits. Things were going OK for me, but then they just exploded. And so she needed money. She admitted this in an interview. She needed money, which goes against the defense that she wasn`t trying to sell her baby. She said she desperately needed money.
But now that she can get a little famous -- and who knows if anybody paid for these interviews while she was in jail or if they promised her money when she gets out, this is just another way for her probably to earn some money.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Disturbing allegations out of Texas.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Dallas police have arrested a 26-year-old mother because they say she tried to sell her baby through a classified ad.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The mother allegedly asking for thousands of dollars cash for her 4-month-old baby boy.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The woman who answered the ad says she knew something was up.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She always (ph) say, I`m going to pay the legal fees. If you have an attorney present for three or four hours, $600 times three...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The ad isn`t the only trouble Hill is facing. She was charged Friday with abandoning that same child inside an apartment.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: After apartment managers looking to collect her rent find the apartment empty except for her 4-month-old baby boy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Not only that, when police come to investigate Mommy putting her 4-month-old baby boy on sale at a reduced price on PennySaverUSA.com -- trying to sell the 4-month-old child on line -- what do they find?
Out to you Ellie Jostad.
JOSTAD: Well, Nancy, they go to the house -- and actually, what happened is, while this is all going on, police are already investigating this alleged adoption or baby selling, the apartment manager is trying to collect some back rent from this mother, Brittany Hill, goes to the apartment, knocks on the door to try to find her, and finds the baby, Eden, just 4 months old, allegedly home alone, nobody else around, Mom not there, baby is by himself.
GRACE: OK, as you were saying, Bradford Cohen?
COHEN: Well, about leaving the baby alone? Her excuse is that she was there for 10 or 15 minutes to go get the mail. Obviously, it`s not a good thing to leave a baby alone for any period of time, but I would need to know how long the baby was alone in the house to know whether or not it justifies charges filed against her for abandonment.
GRACE: Police say that they stayed in the apartment and she was gone for over an hour, Bradford.
COHEN: Well, certainly, that`s not a good thing. You know, leaving a baby alone for any period of time is not very good. And then you have to look at her psychosis, if she has some kind of...
GRACE: That`s what I was waiting on, insanity. OK, I was actually timing how long you would talk before you came up with the insanity defense. And altogether...
COHEN: How long would you say...
GRACE: ... it didn`t even take you two minutes. You didn`t even talk a full two minutes.
COHEN: Well, that`s pretty good.
GRACE: And that includes the last block.
Out to you, Kelly Saindon, former prosecutor, family law attorney. Weigh in, Kelly.
KELLY SAINDON, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Absolutely, this is abuse. It`s neglect. It`s child endangerment and it`s abandonment. This is a mom who was looking for money. She was trying to sell her child. She`d been through the adoption process before.
She also tried to build her defense, when she`s giving these interviews. Well, social workers told me if I can`t handle him, I should walk away for 10 or 15 minutes, so I was getting the mail.
She`s not an idiot. She knew what she was doing. She got caught, and now she`s trying to backpedal.
GRACE: Straight to Detective Lieutenant Steven Rogers, former member, FBI. Steven, thank you for being with us.
DET. LT. STEVEN ROGERS, NUTLEY, NJ, POLICE DEPARTMENT: You`re welcome, Nancy.
GRACE: What can happen to a child that age alone for one hour?
ROGERS: Well, from serious injury to death. I mean, it`s absurd that this has happened. And I`ve got to tell you, the police are going to investigate the background of this woman, and the question that needs to be answered, Is she capable of taking care of not only this child but the rest of our (ph) children. That life of that child was placed in serious jeopardy.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I never was trying to sell a child. All I did was tell her what fees are there. She said that I didn`t want to go the legal way, which was 100 percent not true.
So I told Megan (ph) and she said, How much do I -- am I going to need to have? You know, how much should I put (ph) in my account? I said -- I said, If you can get close to $4,000, just because she already say, I`m going to pay the legal fees. But you`re thinking, if you have an attorney present for three or four hours, it`s $600 times three.
(INAUDIBLE) I went through. It had different things on there. It had -- like I said, it advertised all this. It even advertised a foster, adoptive parents, all that. So I went through something that is normally used for something like this.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That`s Mommy behind bars trying to explain why she put her baby on line, on sale, even slashing the price.
To Kelly in Arkansas. Hi, Kelly. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Good to talk to you.
GRACE: Likewise.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, is basically, you know, in most states -- I know here in Arkansas -- if you don`t want your child anymore, you can take him to a safe place, like a police station, fire department, hospital. Have the authorities questioned her to -- I believe the Dallas paper said something about she didn`t want to profit from the adoption. Why didn`t she just take it to a safe (ph) person (ph) if she didn`t want the baby anymore?
GRACE: Good point. What about it, Ellie Jostad?
JOSTAD: Well, right, Nancy. Texas does have a safe haven law. She could have taken advantage of that. She says, though, she was trying to legitimately do this adoption. She says she couldn`t financially take care of her little boy, and that`s why she wanted to find an adoptive family for him. She says she wasn`t trying to profit herself. That`s her claim.
GRACE: Ellie, are there other children in the home?
JOSTAD: Well, there are not other children in the home, but she does have other children. She claims, as other people have mentioned, that she gave up another child for adoption in 2009. We still don`t know at this point if that was a legitimate adoption or how exactly that was handled.
She also has an older child, 7 or 8 years old, who is in the custody of Brittany Hill`s mother, so the baby is with its grandmother.
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers. So Bradford Cohen, basically, she`s using adoption as a form of birth control. She has the baby, then she just gives him away. She`s adopted -- adopted, AKA sold -- one baby in 2009. The other baby is living with her mother. Now here`s a third baby that she not only puts on sale on line, she slashes the price.
Have you ever been to K-Mart, Bradford? Or is that too low-brow for you?
COHEN: I have been to K-Mart. I have been to K-Mart.
GRACE: You have. OK.
COHEN: Yes.
GRACE: I hear that...
COHEN: And Wal-Mart.
GRACE: ... I`ve been there. So have you ever heard of a "blue light special," Bradford? You know what that is?
COHEN: I have heard of a blue light special, yes. My mom looks for them all the time.
GRACE: Well, her and me, too. But I don`t expect to find a 4-month- old baby infant on aisle 12, Kelly Saindon.
SAINDON: You`re right. And this woman has already said -- you`re right, it`s birth control for her. She said she would have a hysterectomy if she could afford it. She doesn`t want this baby and she`s looking to profit.
GRACE: Whoa! Wait!
SAINDON: She could have dropped him off...
GRACE: Wait, wait, wait, wait!
SAINDON: ... at a safe haven place...
GRACE: Wait! What did you say about hysterectomy?
SAINDON: She said in an interview that she gave, she would have had a hysterectomy, could she have afforded it. Because it wasn`t offered to her on the state, she -- I believe you`re right, she`s using this as a form of birth control -- get pregnant, give the baby away, and if you can turn a profit, hey, good for her. That`s how I think she sees it.
And if I were prosecuting this case, I would certainly bring that up.
GRACE: Would have had a hysterectomy if she could afford it, Evangeline Gomez.
GOMEZ: Nancy, I think these points are irrelevant. As a prosecutor, you know...
GRACE: I bet you do!
GOMEZ: ... what happened in this situation.
(CROSSTALK)
GOMEZ: They tried to get her to sell the baby, and it didn`t happen. So what did they have to do? They had to work with the hotel manager...
GRACE: That`s not what happened.
GOMEZ: ... in order to make sure she left the building...
GRACE: The hotel manager...
GOMEZ: ... and once she left, then they had to seize physical custody. And all they have now is a flimsy child abandonment charge, which they`re not going to be able to prove. They`re not going to be...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Back to you, Michael Board. Response?
BOARD: You know, she knew exactly what she was doing in this case. And the fact that she says she needs money for a hysterectomy? Why does she need money? Crossing your legs is free!
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Dallas police have arrested a 26-year-old mother because they say she tried to sell her baby.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I said, You (ph) need (ph) close to $4,000.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She wanted somebody that could take care of him.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The mom now claiming it was for adoption and legal fees.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All I did was tell her what fees are.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hill says it wasn`t a Craigslist ad, either. It was a newspaper where she was looking for someone to adopt, not buy, her child.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A prospective buyer allegedly gets cold feet and calls police.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The baby was eventually found alone in an apartment.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The baby is four months old.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The baby is in protective services.
BRITTANY HILL, TRIED TO SELL CHILD ONLINE: I never was trying to sell my child.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back. She claims that she wasn`t really selling her baby online, but cops disagree. After putting one child up for adoption, i.e., selling him, in 2009, another child she`s lost custody, guardianship, is living with her mother and now yet a third little boy goes up for sale online?
We are taking your calls, to Cheryl Arutt, clinical and forensic psychologist joining me out of L.A., who do you believe would be likely to be online trolling to buy children?
CHERYL ARUTT, PSY.D., CLINICAL AND FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: I think that in this case we were very lucky to have a woman who`s heart was in the right place online because there are certainly a lot of predators and dangerous people out there.
I think this woman`s judgment was impaired, but something that could completely explain this woman`s behavior is if she has post-partum depression, particularly psychotic post-partum depression. Her judgment is impaired. She has no resources. She seems to be --
GRACE: Cheryl?
ARUTT: -- where she can`t take care of the baby.
GRACE: Cheryl? Cheryl?
ARUTT: Yes?
GRACE: I hate to --
ARUTT: Yes, Nancy.
GRACE: -- interrupt that, but do you have any evidence whatsoever that she has any type of mental instability?
ARUTT: I absolutely do, she stated in one of these interviews that one of her doctors had told her that when she gets depression to step away from the child. And that could be an attempt to implement the small level of coping skills that she has because of history of post-partum depression. So that tell me that there is some history there.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Absolutely, what our record say is that the doctor told her when she was feeling angry at the baby to step away from the child.
ARUTT: Hey, if you`re feeling depressed is an exact quote from her about what the doctor said in the interview.
GRACE: Well, so anger is reflected --
ARUTT: You know, we have to consider this --
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: -- in the police report.
ARUTT: Anger, yes. Certainly, but in her interview, I think we have to consider a compassionate explanation for this as well, that if she does a post-partum depression and she is -- clearly her judgment is impaired, but there is a possibility that this woman, without an education, without resources and with this difficulty was erroneously but doing the best she could to try to not be harming her child directly.
And clearly, this isn`t the way to do it. But I think that there is a possibility that that`s what was going on.
GRACE: Back to Michael Board. Michael Board, agree or disagree?
MICHAEL BOARD, REPORTER, WOAI NEWSRADIO: You know, the evidence -- the preponderance of evidence in this case, the police reports, the reports of what the woman in Florida who trying to adopt this call, and had conversations with her, told police, you know, there`s just so much evidence in this.
You know, we don`t ever hear about Brittany Hill working with an adoption agency, we don`t hear her working with one of those agencies in this case. You know, if this was on the up and up and she really was trying to adopt this child in a legitimate way, why hasn`t an adoption agency come forward and said, you know what, guys, we were working with Brittany, we were trying to do this the right way. We have not heard that. You know, there`s just so much evidence that she was trying to make a money grab in this case.
GRACE: Cheryl Arutt, response?
ARUTT: Well, I have to say this is coming from someone who just made a very misogynistic comment about women closing their legs. They do not give hysterectomies to 26-year-old women. I don`t know that the evidence is so overwhelming when we don`t know this woman`s psychiatric history. Her judgment is impaired, clearly, so no one was arguing that she was going about this the correct way, but I don`t think we have all the information and I don`t think we can jump to conclusions.
GRACE: Well, you know, Cheryl, actually, not going about it in the correct way is not what we`re talking about. Because she`s already adopted out one child. She`s already given legal guardianship of another boy to her mother. So she`s very familiar --
ARUTT: Yes.
GRACE: -- with how the adoption process works. Listing your child --
ARUTT: Not, not if she was in post-partum --
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: As I was saying, Cheryl, as I was saying, I very kindly listened to you cobble together some sort of a mental defense, I would appreciate the same courtesy from you.
We`re not talking about giving legal guardianship away, which she has done through the courts. We`re not talking about putting a child up for adoption, which she says she has done legally. We`re talking about listing your infant on PennySaver and then reducing the price, Cheryl. I think those are the facts we`re dealing with, are we not, Ellie?
ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE CHIEF EDITORIAL PRODUCER: Yes, that`s right, Nancy, that is what police are alleging that she put up this ad which lists for an adoptive family, but they say later she wanted to make $4,000 and she intended to keep that money.
GRACE: Out to the lines, Pete in Georgia. Hi, Pete. What`s your question, dear?
PETE, CALLER FROM GEORGIA: Hi, Nancy. I was just wondering why are you getting all over this mother for just sort of trying to change her situation? I mean, how do you know the mom wasn`t legitimately putting the baby up for adoption? I believe her. I saw her tears from the jail interview. I mean not everyone has some fancy law degree like you?
GRACE: Well, I appreciate that and so are my two alma maters, Mercy University and NYU. However, those simply aren`t the facts, Pete in Georgia. The facts are, not that she went through an adoption agency, not that she went through a lawyer, not that she went through any third party, unless you want the classifies in PennySaver USA to qualify as a legal adoption service.
Out to the lines, Jason. Hi, Jason, what`s your question?
JASON, CALLER: Hi, Nancy. Thanks for taking my call and nice talking with you again.
GRACE: Likewise.
JASON: Yes, I have one quick -- or two quick questions.
GRACE: OK.
JASON: Where is the mother now and how much was she asking for the child on the ad?
GRACE: Out to Alexis Tereszcuk, senior reporter, Radaronline.com.
ALEXIS TERESZCUK, REPORTER, RADAROLINE.COM: Brittany is still in jail. She needs to post a $50,000 bail, and if she was asking for $4,000 for a baby online, I`m pretty sure that she does not have that money so she`s still in jail. And the caller has a comment. She originally asked for $6500, but when that wasn`t delivered immediately, she lowered her price. She lowered it down to a reasonable $4,000.
She`s told the woman that if she would hurry up and come, bring an I.D., and the $4,000 that she would be able to hand over the baby immediately the next day. So it was a quick sale that she wanted to make of her child.
GRACE: To Dr. William Morrone, medical examiner, forensic pathologist and toxicologist.
Dr. Morrone, it wasn`t a hotel, it was an apartment manager and she was about to be thrown out because she wouldn`t pay her rent. Question, they find the baby alone, a 4-month-old infant. What dangers, physically, did the infant face, Doctor?
DR. WILLIAM R. MORRONE, MEDICAL EXAMINER; FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST, TOXICOLOGIST: Well, the baby is in the elements, you don`t know if it`s overheated, you don`t know if it`s not being fed, if the baby also has to have constant supervision.
What if the baby rolls over and falls off a sofa? A child needs to be observed, cuddled, fed and attend to feeding and sleeping schedules. These are very important for development. They coo, they talk back, and an absence of input leads to later problems in development.
GRACE: You know what I find interesting -- I want to go out to Robert Kasky, adoption law expert joining us from Deerfield Beach, Florida. He`s been doing legal adoptions for over 30 years.
Robert, I hear everyone whining on and on about this mom. But no one seems to take into account the baby, a 4-month-old baby girl.
ROBERT KASKY, ADOPTION LAW EXPERT: And, Nancy, the truth of the matter is that in all adoptions and any situation of this nature, the first and foremost consideration is what`s in the best interests of the child. It`s certainly not to hand the baby over to somebody whose qualifications you know nothing about. It`s certainly not handing a baby over to a family or a woman who shows up and produces a driver`s license, as opposed to a home study, a criminal background check, a child abuse background check, a psychological profile, and establishing her credibility as a potential parent.
Just everything about this is the underbelly of the world of adoption. This is everything wrong in this picture.
GRACE: You know, Robert Kasky, while I`ve got you -- Robert joining me out of Deerfield Beach, Florida. How would this -- how should this have gone down?
KASKY: This should have gone down -- it could have been very, very simple. All she had to do was go to an adoption agency, a licensed agency, which is supervised, audited and overseen by a state regulatory authority. They would -- the adoption agency would have gone through their list of waiting families. And god only knows there are plenty of them. They would have matched the ethnicity of this child with the ethnicity of a waiting family.
GRACE: Right.
KASKY: And they would have gone all the background checks required, and if that family happened to have been a Florida family, which it could have been, they would have to --
GRACE: Understood.
KASKY: They would have to comply with an interstate law.
GRACE: It`s a much more -- much more complicated process than listing it on PennySaver.
Now back to Evangeline Gomez, defense attorney joining me out of New York.
You`re coming up with all types of defenses for the mom, but in the care of your own 4-month-old child, when your child was 4 months old, would you have left it alone for an hour?
EVANGELINE GOMEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: If I had a child who`s 4 months, I would not have left her alone for an hour.
GRACE: If you -- wait.
GOMEZ: But the issue is --
GRACE: You don`t have children?
GOMEZ: She said that she left him alone for 15 minutes.
GRACE: Did you have -- have you ever had children?
GOMEZ: No, I do not have children.
GRACE: OK. That makes a lot of sense.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Cops responded to a report of a woman being thrown from a vehicle on Interstate 90. Shoved his wife out of their car on a busy interstate and then assaulted a police officer. The husband escaped, breaking the backseat window and then attacking the police officer.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls. A husband pushes his wife out of the family car on a high-speed interstate.
Out to the lines, and to Scott Cory. Scott Carty, morning show host, 570 KVI.
Scott, thanks for being with us. Scott, what happened?
SCOTT CARTY, MORNING SHOW HOST, SMART TALK 570 KVI: Nancy, they were traveling east bound on I-90 which is -- it goes left to right on your television screen, and the husband and the wife apparently had a disagreement. He was apparently upset about driving and have had some problems there. He`s struggling with some issues, said -- he wanted to drive, they were driving slowly. He didn`t want to be there --
GRACE: Wait, wait, wait, wait.
CARTY: Then the argument happened.
GRACE: What issues --
CARTY: And he pushed her outside of the car.
GRACE: -- is he struggling with? He is struggling with what issue? That he wanted to drive, and not her?
CARTY: He said he wanted to drive and he said that he should not be driving because of a medical condition. It`s very confusing but he ends up pushing her out of the car.
GRACE: OK. Casey McNerthney, joining us from Seattlepi.com. OK, thanks for being with us. What more do we know about the facts? A husband pushes his wife out of a moving car on an high speed -- interstate and let`s see the shot of that mountain pass where they were.
Go ahead, Casey.
CASEY MCNERTHNEY, REPORTER, SEATTLEPI.COM: What we know from what authorities have told that they were going from one home to another and there was some kind of dispute in the car. We know that the trooper who responded got a 911 call from another passing motorist, saying that the driver in this case was going erratically around the road. So the trooper stopped and according to investigators was attacked by the man.
And there was also some damage to a window of the patrol car when they tried to arrest him. All three, the man and woman in the case, and the trooper went to the hospital for evaluations. Luckily no serious injuries.
GRACE: But, Matt Zarrell, isn`t it true not only did he throw his wife out of the car on a high speed Internet -- interstate, he also takes off. He`s found nearly 20 miles away leading cops on a chase of their own.
MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE STAFFER, COVERING STORY: Yes, what happened was that cops found him about 15 miles away from where he allegedly threw his wife out of the car. Now when they arrested him, he is completely uncooperative. They put him in the back of the patrol car, but that`s not where it ends. In fact, he kicks out the window of the back of the patrol car, gets out of the car, and assaults the police officer who pulled him over.
The police officer is able to restrain him and get him back in the car. But Nancy, as of tonight, he is still not cooperating. He even refuses to even allow a mug shot to be taken of him.
GRACE: To Todd Fulmer, accident reconstructionist joining us, the head of Fulmer Consultation Services.
Todd, thanks for being with us. I`ve got a question, how hard is it to kick out a trooper`s window from the inside?
TODD FULMER, ACCIDENT RECONSTRUCTIONIST EXPERT, FULMER CONSULTATION SERVICES: It`s not really that hard. Through my years when I worked with the Alabama State Troopers, we had several vehicles that had had people kick out the back windows. It usually results to somebody getting (INAUDIBLE) where they can`t kick. You`ll notice a lot of patrol cars these days actually have bars on the insides of the windows simply to stop that from happening.
GRACE: You know what, Matt Zarrell, I want to go back to you on this. He leaves the wife for dead. And my understanding is, this was all over an argument regarding who was going to drive?
ZARRELL: Yes, what cops are telling us is that he has a medical condition. Now the cops are saying he should have never been driving --
GRACE: Yes, he`s mean.
ZARRELL: He should never have been driving in the first place at all. The wife did not want him driving. They proceeded to argue about it and then he is traveling along the shoulder of the highway and that is when he shoves her out of the car.
GRACE: Out to the lines, Misty in New Jersey. Hi, Misty, what`s your question?
MISTY, CALLER FROM NEW JERSEY: Hi, Nancy, I`m just as confused as you are about this arguing over who`s going to drive or not. I personally feel like he does need to be charged for attempted murder because he tried to kill that lady by throwing her out on the interstate and as far as him not cooperating with the police, maybe they need to check into his medical condition because it sounds like he needs to be in a psychiatric facility.
GRACE: You know what, Misty? I`m not all down with that whole medical condition thing, he`s not on the medical unit, he`s not in the jail or the prison for the mentally disturbed. Nothing. I don`t know what medical condition he`s got other than plain out mean.
Diana in Kentucky, what`s your question, dear?
DIANA, CALLER FROM KENTUCKY: Hi. I want to have a statement. I think not only attempted murder, public destruction -- destruction of public property, leaving the scene of the crime, a guy is a bleep and I hope they really nail it to him, and good job, you are our best advocate.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ZARRELL: Police say a Washington man shoved his wife out of their moving car on a busy interstate and then assaulted a police officer. The wife was taken by ambulance to a local hospital for her injuries.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls. To Diane in Florida. Hi, Diane, what`s your question?
DIANE, CALLER FROM FLORIDA: Hi, Nancy. How is the wife doing?
GRACE: She is alive. That`s all I can say for her. She was taken to the hospital. I mean, she`s thrown out of a moving car on a high-speed interstate and left for dead. Left for dead. And the husband has been so pugnacious, they haven`t even been able to take a booking photo of him. Isn`t that right?
Out to you, Scott Carty, smart talk at KVI. What about it, Scott?
CARTY: He is still booked with the (INAUDIBLE) County Sheriff and he is in there for the charges. And yes, you are right, there is no booking picture of him yet. He is being completely resistant to participating at all with them.
GRACE: I don`t know that I`d want to be in the cab of a truck with him. What about it? To Casey McNerthney with Seattlepi.com. What about it, Casey? What more do we know?
MCNERTHNEY: Well, when I spoke to the other sheriff at (INAUDIBLE) County this morning he said that he has been charged with two counts of felony assaults and also is being investigated for damaging the police vehicle and also held for reckless endangerment. We expect that he`ll have some kind of court date in the next few days.
GRACE: Casey, what do we know about this so-called mental problem? Is he being held in sick bay?
CARTY: We haven`t heard that. The really difficult part is because of federal privacy laws, they haven`t been able to release a lot. We`ve heard from troopers that his speech wasn`t fluid when he was pulled over and that there`s some kind of medical condition but they haven`t specified what exactly that was.
GRACE: So, back to my original question, Scott Carty. Is he in the medical unit at the jail?
CARTY: Plain old jail, Nancy.
GRACE: So, no.
CARTY: Plain old jail.
GRACE: Every jail -- I don`t care -- right. Plain old jail. Gotcha. So all this blah, blah, blah about his state of mind, he`s not even in the medical unit. He is in the general population. And I guarantee you, he wouldn`t be if he had any mental illness.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Tonight, we want to keep children safe, including protecting children for I.D. theft. Children, prime targets for cyber theft. New solutions to prevent their personal information from being stolen.
With us, Larry Fishelson, tech expert, co-founder and COO of Dynalink Communications, with us live.
Thanks for being with us, Larry.
LARRY FISHELSON, TECH EXPERT, CO-FOUNDER AND COO, DYNALINK COMMUNICATIONS: You got it. Thank you for having me, Nancy.
GRACE: Larry, what can you tell me about child identity theft and how dangerous it can be?
FISHELSON: It`s very dangerous, Nancy. There`s 140,000 cases reported of child identity theft in the United States. And the reason why kids are targeted is because they have a clean history on their credit and it could take 16 to 18 years to find out that it`s an issue. Now it`s very dangerous because people could be using the identity and building up criminal records, taking out loans, and then when the child, it could hurt their history when they`re trying to go to college and they`re trying to get their first loan, or they`re applying for a job and it comes up that they, you know, had a crime committed. And so it`s very dangerous and it needs to be -- it needs to be thwarted.
GRACE: With me, Larry Fishelson, tech expert. Larry, what`s the most typical way that children can get their I.D. stolen?
FISHELSON: Well, the most typical way is a lot of times, their Social Security number taken. So if you look at a doctor`s office or children`s camps or in schools where their Social Security number is out there, all it takes is a bad person to take that number and get it out there and that`s why it`s very important. And there are ways to be -- go against it.
GRACE: How?
FISHELSON: Companies such as --
GRACE: How can you protect them?
FISHELSON: You can protect them, there are companies like Identity Guard, for instance, that have a monitoring system, where if the parent gives a name, Social Security and date of birth, it could track through thousands of databases and any time the child`s Social Security number pops up, it gives them an alert and they will be able to go ahead and track it and get involved with the proper authorities to stop it so it`s very important, these monitoring systems now to use for your children.
GRACE: Larry Fishelson, thank you.
Let`s stop and remember Navy Lieutenant Junior Grade Francis Toner IV, 26, Narragansett, Rhode Island, killed Afghanistan. U.S. Merchant Marine, academy grad, Silver Star, Bronze Star, Purple Heart, buried, Arlington, loved football. Leaves behind parents Rebecca and Frank III, stepmother, Sharon, brothers, Michael and John, sister Amanda, widow, Brooke.
Francis Toner IV, American hero.
Thanks to our guests but especially to you. And a very special good night from Georgia friends, Melissa and Ann Rose. Aren`t they beautiful? Thanks for being with us, Melissa and Ann Rose.
Everyone, Dr. Drew up next. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.
END
