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Piers Morgan Live

Kerry Kennedy Charged with DWI; Witness Charges George Zimmerman is Racist; Bain of Romney's Existence

Aired July 16, 2012 - 21:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

PIERS MORGAN, HOST: Tonight, after all the headlines, I'll talk to Kerry Kennedy's cousin, Patrick, about how she's doing and about the cause that's closest to his heart, the stigma of mental health problems.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PATRICK KENNEDY (D), FORMER U.S. REPRESENTATIVE: We call them crazy, nuts, psycho. And who would want to be acknowledged as having suffered from a mental illness if they're called those words?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MORGAN: Also, sorry seems to be the hardest word.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MITT ROMNEY (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: It's disgusting, it's demeaning, it's something which I think the president should take responsibility for and stop.

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We won't be apologizing. And I don't -- you know, sometimes these games are played during political campaigns.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MORGAN: The Bain of Mitt Romney's existence. I'll ask one of the president's men if they really think this line of attack will work.

Also, new explosive charges in the Trayvon Martin case. George Zimmerman's attorney is here to answer them.

And more from the interview that people are still talking about.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MORGAN: Who do you think killed Bonny?

ROBERT BLAKE, ACTOR: Bonny had people that she burned. How bad, I don't know.

(END VIDEO CLIP) MORGAN: Now the man who sued Robert Blake and won $13 million for Bonny Lee Bakley's family fires back.

This is PIERS MORGAN TONIGHT.

Good evening. Our "Big Story" tonight. Unfortunately a familiar headline. A Kennedy in the news for the wrong reasons. Kerry Kennedy, daughter of the late Robert F. Kennedy, ex-wife of New York governor, Andrew Cuomo, was arrested over the weekend and charged with driving when impaired by drugs.

According to the police report, Kennedy was involved in a hit- and-run when her 2008 Lexus struck a tractor trailer on Friday morning. Police say she drove away and was later found behind the wheel of her damaged SUV. A spokesman for Kennedy denied she's on drugs and said she voluntarily took breathalyzer, blood and urine tests which showed no drugs or alcohol in her system.

Sources close to the family told the "New York Times" Kennedy may have had a seizure and said she had told police she might have mistakenly taken the sleeping pill Ambien.

Here now for more on our big story is Patrick Kennedy, the former congressman from Rhode Island and co-founder of One Mind for Research.

Patrick Kennedy, welcome back to the show. Let me just start with the sad news. That came about your cousin Kerry Kennedy. There's been lots of newspaper coverage as there always is with any member of your family when they're involved in this kind of thing. And I'm sure that, you know, that you get sick and tired of reading about the curse of the Kennedys and so on.

What can you tell me about what happened to her?

KENNEDY: Well, Piers, as you know, something very similar happened to me when I was in Congress many years ago. I was arrested for a DWI because I was under the influence of a Ambien and Feneregen because I had an upset stomach. I was using the Ambien to help me with my sleep because I was trying to live without opiates.

And so when I ultimately thought I was treating my own addiction through things that I didn't consider to be drugs -- this was a prescription, by the way, so I thought, hey, this is all right -- I found I got into a lot of trouble. And it wasn't the alcohol or the opiates which I had used previously that got me behind a wheel and driving while intoxicated, it was Ambien.

So I can't tell you for certain what happened to Kerry. But I can tell you, in my own circumstance, I was lucky to get mental health treatment for my addiction and depression. And what I'm doing out here, as you speak to me tonight, I'm out in Minnesota. The home of Paul Wellstone. Celebrating the Paul Wellstone Mental Health Parody and Addiction Equity Act.

And as you may recall, Piers, this was the law that required mental health and addiction services to be treated as other physical illnesses are treated. And of course as you know, Piers, insurance companies discriminate routinely against these kinds of mental illnesses because, as you pointed out at the beginning of your show, there's a sensational quality to this.

And of course that is what keeps most Americans from really seeking mental health treatment. Even though they might need it. It's because it's stigmatized. It's discriminated against. And all I know is that I think our country obviously would be much better off if we take a lesson from Paul Wellstone and that historic bill that Pete Domenici co-sponsored, Republican and Democrat together, acknowledging that these illnesses are physical illnesses. No different than any other physical illnesses. And need to be treated in the same regard.

MORGAN: Well, I certainly think it's an excellent campaign. And I think it's long overdue and I congratulate on the work you've done with it.

Just returning to Kerry briefly. Have you managed to speak to her at all?

KENNEDY: I was with Kerry last week. We celebrated my cousin, Matt's, wedding, himself a week just prior to mine. We were all down as a family on the Cape. She is an amazing woman. I don't personally see her as suffering from the same Irish flu so to speak that I suffer from. I think this was an out of character-type incident.

And I understand that she's done all the necessary disclosures and gotten the necessary tests and the like. And that it's probably a prescription medication or it's a seizure disorder of some sort. And so I know as a society we sensationalize these issues because it does involve a motor vehicle accident. And when it does, these things obviously become very sensationalized.

I think, hopefully, at the end of the day, just as in my colleague's Jesse Jackson circumstance, we don't end up continuing to perpetuate the stigma around anything that is kind of behavioral because we misunderstand that the brain is part of the body and that these behaviors that often lead to sleepy driving or DWIs or any other kinds of behavior, that Jesse didn't feel comfortable talking about, are all things that I think all of us in our lives deal with to some degree or another. Either in our own lives or in our family's life.

And I think it's important as a society we begin to talk about these things and actually treat them as the physical illnesses that they are.

MORGAN: I mean two months ago, your cousin-in-law, Mary Richardson Kennedy, committed suicide following a long struggle with depression. And a messy divorce from Kerry's brother, Bobby Jr. Would you categorize what she went through as the kind of thing that you were talking about in terms of people who get stigmatized and sensationalized?

KENNEDY: Well, listen, Piers, if she had been suffering from cancer, or diabetes or some other acceptable illness, she wouldn't have had any problem getting the necessary help. Because she wouldn't have felt bad about herself in getting mental health care. But unfortunately, in our country, we stigmatize mental health care. We treat it as a pejorative. We even call it mental health care as opposed to health care.

And in a sense, we segregate it. And as you know from 50 years ago in the battles for civil rights, who wanted to drink from the colored water fountain? Who wanted to go to be treated differently? Mental health today is in a similar circumstance where people are segregated. And what that ends up doing is adding insult to injury. If you have a depression, like Mary had, if you're battling, you have the added insult of a society that doesn't accept this as a legitimate illness.

And, therefore, you feel shamed of yourself, it worsens the depression and the feeling of desperation. And as you know, Piers, not only did my cousin Mary suffered from this, but our returning veterans, many of whom are resorting to suicide as the only way out.

It's just unacceptable, Piers. We need to come up with a different attitude towards these mental illnesses so that we don't make people feel when they're trying to get help that they're -- it's unacceptable to get that help.

MORGAN: Tell me, Patrick, I mean, you are a member of the Kennedy dynasty. Often described as America's royal family. Whenever any member of the family gets involved in any kind of incident, it's always splattered across the papers. It's discussed on television shows, et cetera, et cetera. How much of a pressure does the family feel about that kind of thing?

KENNEDY: Well, Piers, like I said in my own circumstance, I was very fortunate. My constituents in Rhode Island knew me. They knew I had challenges. But they also knew that I worked hard and I cared. And I got re-elected. After the arrest and the DWI. But I got re- elected because I talked about it. I spoke openly about it. Because I knew that that's what my constituents wanted. And that's what they were anxious to hear.

And, in fact, many of them started talking to me about their own sets of challenges that they felt ashamed about. And in a sense, Piers, you know, even though I grew up in a very different way from many of my constituents, they related to my experience of fighting not only a mental illness but the stigma that comes with that mental illness.

And I think, Piers, the greatest solution is that we need to open up the dialogue. We can't stigmatize these illnesses anymore. And I think not only in my own family's case, which is just another family out there struggling, this is a common struggle. There's not a family in America that doesn't have a child with autism, a parent with Alzheimer's, a brother or sister with addiction or depression.

You know, these are all illnesses that affect our behavior. And then we can't reject our family members because they act strange. And of course we do because we call them crazy. Nuts. Psycho. These are all the pejorative terms that we use to describe people who are suffering from a mental illness. And who would want to be acknowledged as having suffered from a mental illness if they're called those words? We need to change the dialogue and open up our arms and our hearts to all around us. Because, as I said, Piers, it's every single family in America.

MORGAN: Well, Patrick, I've interviewed you twice now in the last few weeks. You speak with great candor, great passion. Great intelligence. And I really admire what you're doing here. And I think that, you know, you speak from your family's experiences but also, as you say, this is something that touches almost every family in America. In some way. And it has to be taken more seriously.

And I do wish you all the best of luck with your campaign. I thank you for coming back on the show.

KENNEDY: Thank you, Piers.

MORGAN: Coming up next, the latest on the Trayvon Martin case. Explosive development that nobody saw coming. George Zimmerman's attorney fires back at shocking accusations against his client.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MORGAN: Shocking new developments in the Trayvon Martin case today. Witness number nine charges that George Zimmerman molested her, starting when they were both children and continued until they were teenagers. None of these charges will be admissible in trial. And defense has moved to block public release of the statement, contending it's not relevant to the issues of the case.

So what will all this mean in court, if anything?

Joining me now exclusively is George Zimmerman's attorney Mark O'Mara.

Mark, welcome back. These are on the face of it --

MARK O'MARA, GEORGE ZIMMERMAN'S ATTORNEY: Good evening, Piers.

MORGAN: -- very explosive and potentially damaging allegations. What can you tell me about them?

O'MARA: Well, on the face of it, you're right, they seem damaging. Of course as you have mentioned my frustration is that they're absolutely not relevant to anything that is at hand in the true case. They're not admissible. They're not going to get it into a courtroom. Nor will they get before a judge in any way. So the frustration that I have is these allegations which George contends are untrue.

Now we need to spend our resources and time rebutting them. And actually to put it in a difficult if not delicate position of deciding how much we attack the source of these -- this story, or just leave it be and move on to what really counts.

MORGAN: The woman is now in her 20s, from Orlando. She is described in various newspaper reports as somebody whose parents were close to the Zimmerman family. Do you know if she is actually a relative or not?

O'MARA: According to the court's order, allowing for the release of her statement, I'm allowed to state the relationship. And we state it as what it is, which is he is a cousin to this woman.

MORGAN: So it's his cousin. And she says that over a period of a number of years George would molest and grope her when she went to the Zimmerman family home. It's actually on audio. This has been released too, as well, today. Let's listen to what she says in her own words.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It started when I was 6. He's about -- almost two years older than I am. He would reach under the blankets and try to do things and I would try to push him off but he was bigger and stronger and older, and -- it was in front of everybody. And I don't know how I didn't say anything but I just didn't know any better.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MORGAN: Clearly very emotional testimony there from this woman on this recording. It's hard to work out what her motivation is. Do you have any suspicions yourself as to why she came forward and said this now?

O'MARA: There actually were some other events that happened in the family dynamics that we will get into if we need to. I will remind you, Piers, as I'm sure you're aware of, her first statement was the day before to the same police. She called anonymously. And said that the whole Zimmerman family were a bunch of racists. That all of them were racists. And that George was, though she cannot come up with any indications or examples of how he was.

Now we also know that the FBI who seemingly has completed their report has said the exact opposite. That George is not a racist. And even with their intense looking into him, they cannot come up with one example of it. So I would suggest that maybe her first statement suggests racism questions her credibility. The next day she makes up allegations about sexual abuse. And also seemingly doesn't -- don't have any corroboration to them.

MORGAN: She is also on the audiotape talking about the racism claim. She doesn't make it specifically about George so much as his family. Let's listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was afraid that he may have done something because the kid was black. Because growing up they always made -- him and his family have always made statements that they don't like black people, if they don't act like white people.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MORGAN: On that specific point, could that be admissible? A family member alleging racism from George's family?

O'MARA: I think that if they could tie that to an event of George's and if, in fact, they had some other evidence supporting a suggestion of racism. We know that this case began with the suggestion that George profiled Trayvon because he was a black male. If they were to go back there it seems that the state has left that behind or the Trayvon Martin family representative left that behind.

But if they were going back there, then potentially that part could be relevant. Nothing about the sexual abuse allegations but that one issue, it might be.

MORGAN: There's been a fairly extraordinary response I think from Trayvon Martin's family by their attorney Benjamin Crump which says as follows. "As the state attorney previously stated, witness number nine would be a rebuttal witness, very similar to that in the Sandusky trial, showing that George Zimmerman has a history of violence and manipulation. Zimmerman's mentality is very relevant to this trial."

I suppose I find it extraordinary because it seemed pretty gratuitous to lump in the name Sandusky into all this because everybody obviously associate him and that name with serious child abuse.

O'MARA: Well, you know, Mr. Crump has said in the past my client was a racist murderer. He has said then my client shouldn't have gotten out of the car. Then it moderated further that he wasn't getting beat up that badly, he didn't need to shoot. You know, he feels as though he needs to say these things to represent the Martin family and that has a benefit to his position, he has the right I guess to say that.

But what I really need to focus on is what we started out this case as. This is a charges of second degree murder case and the question is, did George Zimmerman act in appropriate self-defense in using deadly force against force likely to cause great bodily injury. We know he has the broken nose and the head. I think if we focus on those objective facts all these periphery, which, again, will never make it into a courtroom, needs to be left just there, on the periphery.

MORGAN: You've already requested to have Judge Lester removed. I presume after this huge dump of stuff today that feeling has been reinforced, is it?

O'MARA: Well, actually, I had asked the state. We filed a motion this morning asking the state not to release the information and here's the reason. With the motion to recuse if Judge Lester grants it, I certainly think that he should based upon the rule but that's his decision. If he grants it, then all of his recent rulings, including the decision to release witness nine's statements, would be subject to review or reconsideration. So we had asked the state this morning to just delay since there was no rush to do this, delay until we had an opportunity for the subsequent judge to review it. They decided not to.

MORGAN: Mark O'Mara, as always, thank you very much for coming on the show. We always appreciate you giving us the first response and it's certainly a fascinating twist in what has been a fascinating saga. Thank you.

O'MARA: Great to be here, Piers.

MORGAN: CNN spoke to the father of witness number nine, he said that no one from the family would be speaking to the media about the allegations.

Next, I'll ask one of the president's men his attacks on Mitt Romney's tenure at Bain a winning or losing strategy.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROMNEY: When people accuse you of a crime, you have every reason to go after them pretty hard. And I'm going to continue going after him. I'm very proud of the record that I had in my business career. Helping turnaround the Olympics. And as the governor of the state of Massachusetts. But what does it say about a president whose record is so poor that all he can do in his campaign is attack me?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MORGAN: Mitt Romney on FOX taking exception to the way President Obama's campaign has characterized his role at Bain Capital. But is this an issue that will get him traction with voters?

Here now with our other big story, the race for the White House, is President Obama's former chief of staff, William Daley.

Now, Mr. Daley, a lot of heat stoked up by the Democrats about apparent, alleged criminal Mitt Romney hiding all sorts of dark secret from us. Clearly deliberate campaign to smear him. I don't think anyone argues about that. Is it valid?

WILLIAM M. DALEY, PRESIDENT OBAMA'S FORMER CHIEF OF STAFF: I would disagree with you, Piers, on that comment to smear. Nobody has said he committed a felony. The question is, as you know, and you've reported, there is a disagreement about some -- his statement, whether he was in charge of Bain, whether he was running Bain, whether he was therefore responsible which nothing was done that anyone's alleged was wrong during his tenure as CEO of Bain.

He filed certain documents that said he was the CEO at the time and he signed them. As I understand it. So either you take the credit and responsibility for that period or you weren't running it. And so just explain what happened here. Either there was a mistake. It wasn't true. You weren't running the company. Or if you were running the company, then take credit or responsibility or what happened during your watch, the way Governor Romney has spoken about his tenure and his pride in being a business person.

Then talk about what happened in your company during that period. There's no allegation anything wrong happened during that. So talk about it. And be responsible for it. And don't run away from it.

MORGAN: Well, what is clear is that President Obama and his team had decided that Mitt Romney's number one vulnerability is his record at Bain Capital. At the same time, Mitt Romney is trying to turn this into his number one strength. In other words, I ran a very successful company. I created thousands and thousands of jobs. I made a lot of money. I'm a proud American. What's wrong with that?

It comes down to whether the American public are going to agree with your guy, who says that Romney was a job wrecker, you know, buying companies, destroying them, fleecing them, making money. Or whether they believe Mitt Romney. But why do you think it's this issue that President Obama feels so strongly is the key one?

DALEY: Well, look it, Governor Romney from the very beginning has said I have the credibility to be president because I ran a business. That's been basically the sum and substance of his argument as to why at this difficult time economically he should be put in by the American people as president. As though being CEO of a company is somehow a qualification and sets you apart from other people to be president. The truth is, having spent a year as chief of staff, this analogy of the president to a CEO or because someone's been a CEO, therefore, that's a great qualification to be president, is ridiculous.

MORGAN: Yes, but hang on, hang on --

DALEY: Name a the great presidents in our --

(CROSSTALK)

MORGAN: But Bill Daley --

DALEY: Name a great president in our history --

MORGAN: Right. But hang on.

DALEY: -- who have been CEOs of companies, it doesn't --

MORGAN: Let me jump in. Let me jump in.

DALEY: Yes.

MORGAN: You may say it's ridiculous. But it also doesn't necessarily mean it makes him unfit to be president. Many people would say right now --

(CROSSTALK)

DALEY: Absolutely. I didn't say --

MORGAN: Let me finish. Many people would say right now that what America needs, $16 trillion in debt, all the mess that it has, the one thing America needs more than anything right now is probably a president who does have a business brain. So I could see this argument either playing out either well or badly for the president. Because the American people may go, yes, actually I buy into this. I can accept the president who's a successful businessman?

DALEY: They may. They may. You're right. That's obviously the governor's argument from the very beginning.

And, therefore, if it is about his business career, and that which he did in his business, then why is everything about that business and his tenure as CEO not fair game for the American people to fully understand?

And he standing up and going through the successes in that business? And there's been no -- and the president has been clear in saying there's nothing wrong with private equity.

But to some degree, the Romney campaign and the governor himself have kind of wanted it both ways. We want to get credit for being a successful CEO and that's a great thing to celebrate.

But we don't want to really get into the details of that because there may be parts of that that may have been very good for our investors in the private equity, which is what his responsibility was.

But may not convey to the American people exactly his thinking about how and what about this economy as we go forward, and the one thing about this election that in the end the American people will decide about is who best to lead the next four years.

Not what happened necessarily in the last three years or what Governor Romney did 15, 20 years ago in his business career. It is about the next four years and how we get out of this.

MORGAN: Let's be realistic. Actually, that's not how it worked in elections. People don't vote thinking I wonder what's going to happen in the next four years.

DALEY: I disagree with you, Piers.

MORGAN: I would argue people normally vote in elections based on how they think the incumbent president has performed in the previous four years. They judge him on his performance, don't they?

DALEY: And what that means for the next four years because that's really what they're voting for. The next four years. No doubt about it, the president's record of the last three years, three and a half years, is obviously fair game by his opponent and fair game for him to point to and point to the difficulties of the last three and a half years and what has happened successfully nowhere near as successful as this president wants.

But you're right, but in the end, the American people will look at his record and what that means for the next four years as they will look at Governor Romney's record both in the private sector and in his career as four years as governor of Massachusetts and what that may mean for his leadership the next four years.

MORGAN: Let's turn to a group you're involved with. It's a nonpartisan group called "No Labels." Congress and the presidency became more accountable and effective.

You have an 11-point plan. We won't go through all of it. Some of them stood out to me. One of which reminded me of my own British parliament, which of course has these infamous scenes, prime ministers questioned.

Where all the members of parliament can bray blood and ask questions of the prime minister, you want to bring something similar where the president is exposed to questions of members of Congress.

I rather like that idea. It certainly makes the president personally more accountable visually and it also I think is an interesting way of making politics come alive for many people in the electorate.

DALEY: Well, I don't doubt there's risk to it and there's some constitutional question some would say the president shouldn't expose himself to the Congress in that sort of way, obviously a parliamentary system much different.

But the other recommendations in addition to that one would be ways to streamline to give the president more authority, to go to Congress with twice a year specific legislation that would be co- sponsored by a bipartisan group of Democrats and Republicans.

And have what's called a fast track process to get that legislation voted on up or down so we can avoid some of these long committee -- terribly long processes that Congress through and makes trying to deal with immediate problems almost impossible.

Congress, both the Senate and the House, have become almost incapable of truly acting in a bipartisan way. We have some very serious problems over the next couple of years that our system has got to prove can deal with or else the American people will continue this throwing everybody out whenever they get the chance.

MORGAN: Yes, well, I hardly endorse the sentiment there because it is getting ridiculous and the American public are fed up with it. But Bill Daley, thank you very much for joining me.

DALEY: All right, Piers, nice to talking to you.

MORGAN: When we come back, is Mitt Romney about to change the conversation by announcing his pick for vice president? I'll ask a man who knows his way around politics, Kurt Andersen.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAY LENO, HOST, NBC'S "THE TONIGHT SHOW WITH JAY LENO": Mitt Romney announced he is going to the Olympics in London next month. New word he is going to be rooting for Switzerland, Bermuda, Luxembourg or the Cayman Islands. I'm not quite sure which one he's --

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MORGAN: Jay Leno having some fun at Mitt Romney's expense. All o this is quite follow the comedians. Is it a winning strategy for Mitt Romney?

Joining me now is a man who just might know. Kurt Andersen's new book is "True Believers." He is also the host of Public Radio International's "Studio 360." He joins me now. Welcome back, Kurt.

KURT ANDERSEN, AUTHOR, "TRUE BELIEVERS": Great to be here.

MORGAN: We were just discussing before we went on the air. I think we should get straight to this. The hysterical is the word for ad that just came out from the Obama camp poking fun at the outsourcing that Romney is accused of doing and using a very interesting backdrop. Let's watch this.

OK, first off, that is a great ad. OK, anybody who says who's side you're on it's a great ad. It's very funny makes a sharp point. Gets to the quality rising above just may get abused. What do you make though of the wider point that's being made there?

ANDERSEN: Well, there's certainly a point to be made in politics about a man running for president who takes advantage of all these presumably perfectly legal things to reduce his income tax. Half of what mine and perhaps yours is.

MORGAN: Do Americans care? In Britain -- in Britain I think he'd have problems. There's a lot of envy in Britain to that kind of thing, a lot of resentment to that kind of thing.

Much more than I detected since I've lived and worked in America. I wonder how many Americans, though, don't really edge more towards Romney saying I was a very successful business man. I made a ton of money. I'm not apologizing for it.

ANDERSEN: That's all good except for when you're running for president. When you're running for president, you're a vessel for all kinds of symbolic things and playing fair has to be one of them. I mean, imagine if the roles were reversed.

I mean, I'm glad I'm not a political consultant professionally because then you'd have to engage in this kind thing, but it's completely fair game. As you say, that was a genius piece of ad making.

MORGAN: Again, I can't -- the reason I say this, there's a poll, come out today, 20 percent of Americans apparently, only 20 percent, know which of the two candidates, Obama or Romney, wants to raise taxes on people with incomes over $250,000.

Twenty percent, so 80 percent of Americans despite this being a huge debate in the last few weeks haven't got a clue, which one of them wants to tax the rich.

ANDERSEN: The election hasn't started yet. Give until Labor Day then they'll know.

MORGAN: It's going to be the cracks of the debate. You can see what President Obama believes fundamentally if he keeps hammering Mitt Romney for his person wealth, his record at Bain, the way he appears to have been pretty sharp with his taxation privately and avoiding paying too much tax.

He thinks this will resonate with an America that is tens of millions of people unemployed, people have lost their homes. People are suffering. They're going to think, I'm going to vote for Obama.

ANDERSEN: And that's the best shot he has. I mean, Americans, as you say, compared to, say, Britons, don't have a problem with rich people.

It's a certain kind of what are you hiding there rich person and as Mike Huckabee so famously said, a guy who looks like the guy who just fired you as opposed to a jolly witch person like say Russ Perot before he went mad.

MORGAN: To me the weaker area for Mitt Romney isn't the Bain record, I think is an arguably point either way.

ANDERSEN: Correct.

MORGAN: Destroy jobs or they create them. The truthful answer is they tend to do a bit of both.

ANDERSEN: And that's capitalism. It is creative destruction and he was part of it. Again, it's a hard piece of baggage to have if you're running for president.

MORGAN: Isn't it harder what may be lurking in his tax returns because there's going to be a reason why a guy whose father ran for office and released 12 years of his own returns. That he himself, when he runs, the son, has only released a year and a half. He doesn't want something to come out. What could it be?

ANDERSEN: Well, it's bizarre to me. This guy who's been running for president of the United States for 10 years hasn't gotten that in order, hasn't figured out -- didn't know that this would be an oozing sore, as the campaign began?

Now when it comes out, let's say it just shows the many tens of millions of dollars he made. It will look bad just because he delayed it.

MORGAN: The fascinating part of it is John McCain saw the returns. I think going back 10 years Romney's returns when he had him vetted to be a potential VP for him so he knows.

He's not saying anything. Mitt Romney's not saying anything. But it seems to me very, very unlikely that he won't have to reveal more. The pressure is going to be on. There's now a sense in Washington and getting out into the wider mainstream he's hiding something.

ANDERSEN: Well, it's very strange. As you say, if it's simply a matter of appearances or foreign offshore accounts and stuff, you think he would just bite the bullet and say, OK, here it is. You know I'm rich. Here are the details.

I can't -- as you say, it makings no sense not to come clean now if they're not hiding something. But I'm still of the belief he's not hiding anything illegal.

MORGAN: Well, if he isn't, my advice, get it all out there. Crisis management, get it all out there, take the hit and move on. Let's move on, ourselves, to the VP race.

Because "The New York Times" is suggesting it could be as near as this week that Mitt Romney announces his VP, two names that have come up this week. One is Condoleezza Rice who would be a very surprising choice.

Although actually not as mad as it may seem when you actually look at it I don't think. Tim Pawlenty who I always thought was a bit a dark horse for the job. What do you think of those two candidates? Is there a better one out there for him?

ANDERSEN: I think probably the choice for vice president for Mitt Romney or any candidate is do no harm. Vice presidents very rarely -- vice presidential nominees win an election for you.

Certainly Tim Pawlenty is, you know, there's a reason his election -- his own run for presidency got no traction. He's kind of a boring guy, perfectly reasonable, fine human being and all that.

MORGAN: Would he be a sensible pick?

ANDERSEN: He'd be a sensible pick because, again, no one would notice or care. Condoleezza Rice, people would notice and care. My understanding in the Republican Party her pro-choice position makes her a nonstarter.

MORGAN: It will be a fascinating choice. You have this great new book out, "True Believers." Give yourself a quick plug.

ANDERSEN: I'll give myself a long plug. It is a novel set -- political thriller and mystery set in both the present day and in the 1960s.

It's the fictional memoir of the Hillary Clinton-esque woman. If Hillary hadn't married Bill, she's a big time, big deal lawyer, would appear on your show no doubt talking about the constitution. She's revealing the secret from the late '60s of her young heart.

MORGAN: That's fascinating. Kurt Andersen, as always good to see you.

ANDERSEN: Thank you, a pleasure.

MORGAN: Coming up, you saw my contentions. Now you'll see this. The man who beat Blake in court fires back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERT BLAKE: Nobody ever really knew where Bonnie was. She had 15 I.D. cards. She had 15 credit cards. She had different places where she lived and nobody could ever nobody could ever find her if they were looking for her.

But one day somebody opened a paper and said Bonnie just married Robert Blake. Where does Robert Blake live and what? A couple weeks later she was dead.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MORGAN: A clip from my infamous interview with Robert Blake last week, things got particularly heated when the conversation turned to the death his wife, Bonnie Lee Blake. Joining me now is the man who brought a civil liability case against Blake. I want $30 million for the Bakley family. Eric Dubin, welcome. When you saw the interview, what went through your mind?

ERIC DUBIN, CIVIL ATTORNEY FOR THE BAKLEY FAMILY: A lot. It was unexpected. I felt bad for him. I think the torment of killing Bonnie has affected him greatly. He's a tortured man. It was hard to watch from a lawyer's point of view who devotes his life representing victims. To watch in play the angry victim was hard.

MORGAN: You have absolutely no doubt that he killed Bonnie?

DUBIN: He did kill Bonnie.

MORGAN: Why are you so certain because he got off the criminal case?

DUBIN: Yes. But for celebrity justice, he would be in prison, and that makes me question why he's so angry. He's very lucky not to be in prison, but in the nutshell the motive was the baby.

They had this baby together. Robert Blake kidnapped the baby. He agreed to marry her if she dropped the kidnapping charges she filed. He tried to plant cocaine on her.

He contacted about four hitmen to kill her using a private calling card and the night of the murder he ran out of time, Bonnie wanted the baby back and he had to kill her. I think in his mind he feels justified in doing it.

MORGAN: I had his lawyer for part of that period who was equally adamant that he was innocent, that he didn't kill her. Actually, Bonnie had this string of men, he was her tenth husband, she would be on the run. She was con-artist, you know, all this kind of stuff, which could easily lend itself to the theory as he put to me on the show, Robert Blake that it was one these disgruntled people she turned other in her past, who read about marrying a famous actor and came looking for her. How can you be sure that theory isn't the true one?

DUBIN: It's not accurate. He married her about nine months before she moved to California. And when she moved to California, nobody knew, it wasn't reported anywhere, she had been about three or four days before he killed her.

Nobody knew she was in California. Before that, she was in Arkansas living in a house, raising her three kids. For the last 11 months she didn't move. So she was a sitting duck if anybody wanted her.

I can assure everybody the LAPD put their top men in this case. It was the biggest investigation in LAPD history. They got the right guy, and celebrity justice is why he's free, and he should be lucky to be walking the streets right now.

MORGAN: What's happened to his daughter?

DUBIN: Well, in a nutshell, that was the motive. He kidnapped the baby and gave the baby to his adult daughter where she remains today. When Bonnie demanded the baby back he had a choice to make. He tried to get the hitmen to do it for him, couldn't he did it himself.

MORGAN: I understand when you were watching the interview, you were in contact with Bonnie's two daughters. What was their reaction?

DUBIN: Sad? Why are they still beating up my mom after 10 years? This was a real woman, a mother of four. I'm not going to tell you she didn't do some crazy things with her business.

She loved those four kids. I can give you 30 million reasons why she didn't deserve to die. The whole defense that she had it coming, somebody else did it. I don't care how many times she was married. She did not deserve to get shot in the head and Robert Blake was wrong to do it.

MORGAN: What were the daughters -- what's their reaction to him during the interview, the way he was behaving some crazy way of behaving? What did they make that?

DUBIN: I think like the rest America, started light, there are even some jokes, why is he dressing like woody from Toy Story even, things like that?

But when it came down to bashing the mom and these crazy theories and playing the victim it became difficult for them, and it was the most significant thing in those kids' lives.

To hear that come out of his mouth was very hard. And Tom Mesereau is very talented. I understand the arguments made, I can point out all the things they didn't have, but the only reason he is free is celebrity justice, and he has no reason to be so angry.

MORGAN: He wants to make a comeback in the movies. Do you think he should be allowed to?

DUBIN: I have no opinion on that whatsoever. I don't wish unhappiness on him or anybody else, and if Harvey Weinstein or Kevin Costner want to make a movie with him, I say go for it.

MORGAN: Eric Dubin, thanks for coming in. Coming up, only in America.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MORGAN: Tonight's only in America, back to my extraordinary interview with Robert Blake. There have been many questions on people's mind since it aired not least of which being -- he kept calling me a weird nickname. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MORGAN: It's not about me, is it?

BLAKE: Yes, it is, because you opened the door, Charlie Potatoes, and you can take that to the bank. Go ahead, Charlie, keep dancing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MORGAN: I sort of assumed it was a less than complimentary phrase and I did a little research. He also called me Mr. Research. It turns out that Charlie Potatoes is a fantastically positive accolade.

You can hear it here in the 1958 film, a character played by Tony Curtis fantasizes about a time when he'll be very rich and hugely popular.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All that talk about Johnny Potatoes when the chains are off and nobody's chasing you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MORGAN: I think it's obvious why Robert Blake called me Charlie Potatoes I couldn't be happier. I'll change the name of the show to Charlie Potatoes tonight. That's all for us tonight. "AC 360" starts now.