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Penn State Fined; Wake-Up Call For Black Gay Men; Holmes' Weapon Purchased Legally; Jury Selection in Drew Peterson Case; Jennifer Ghawi's Brother Talks About Shooting Suspect; Chef Marcus Samuelson Has New Book

Aired July 23, 2012 - 13:00   ET



SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Suzanne Malveaux. This hour in the CNN NEWSROOM, the movie theater massacre suspect has just had his first court appearance. His family is finally expected to break their silence as well.

Plus, Penn State slapped with a $60 million fine for the school's role in the child sex abuse scandal involving the former assistant football coach. We're going to have all those details, I want to get right down to it.

First here, it was a first close-up look at the man accused of the massacre inside that Colorado movie theater. James Holmes made his first court appearance since the shooting rampage that left 12 people dead, 58 others wounded. Holmes had the hair dyed bright red and orange, you can see there he appeared somewhat emotionless, somber as he sat next to his attorney in the courtroom. Here's what we know right now. Formal charges, they're going to be filed against Holmes on Monday. The judge assigned a public defender to the case. And sometime today, Holmes' family is expected to say something and issue a statement.

I want to go to Casey Wian who is in San Diego. And you are at the home, I believe, of the suspect's family and that they are going to be talking later today. What have they said so far?

CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, actually, Suzanne, where I am is outside the office of a criminal defense attorney named Lisa Damiani who is now representing the Holmes' family and she says that in about three hours, she is going to come out and read a prepared statement from the family and also take questions, some limited questions from the news media. She said that she has been in touch with Mr. Holmes' mother and father, and says that they are doing reasonably well, as well as could be expected under the circumstances. She would not talk with us about where they are physically located right now. Citing concerns about their safety. But to repeat, she is going to come out and read a prepared statement, the most extensive comments from the family since this shooting happened last week -- Suzanne.

MALVEAUX: And do we have any sense, Casey, what their emotions are? What they are actually experiencing now? Have they expressed remorse or regret or surprise?

WIAN: Really, all we have is from last Friday when the family released through local police officials a statement expressing their condolences to all of those who were impacted by this tragedy. Also, requesting privacy for the family at this time, but we do not have anything in detail in terms of their emotions and the reaction to this horrific crime that their son is being -- about to be charged with -- Suzanne.

MALVEAUX: All right. We're going to keep a close eye on that attorney and whatever comes out of their statement that they're going to make later today. Appreciate it, Casey. We've got in depth coverage of today's court appearance for James Holmes and, of course, the ongoing investigation. I want to bring in two of our players on the ground, Don Lemon and Jim Spellman. They are both at the courthouse that is in Centennial, Colorado. Jim, I want to start with you, because you were inside of the courtroom when Holmes first walked in. Paint a picture, if you will, of what it like for everybody to take a look at who they believe is responsible for this massacre.

JIM SPELLMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: There is a lot of anticipation, both of us in the press which were on one side of the courtroom and of courtroom per personnel, and, more importantly, family members of the victims on the other side. It -- everybody got in there really early, much more early than usual in a court proceeding. And when they finally said, all rise and they opened up the door, we saw this man shuffle in. The first question everybody had on their mind was will his hair be red?


SPELLMAN: I mean, we had heard that report but only from police, because the victims we spoke to only saw this man with a helmet on and a gas mask. So, seeing that was not unexpected, but it was still shocking to see a man who apparently told law enforcement that he was the joker from the batman movies, there in fact with red hair. I was mostly struck by sort of how small and meek he seemed shuffling in and then, you know, he scanned the crowd a little bit. Then once he sat down, he basically just looked ahead with kind of a blank look on his face for the rest of the hearing.

LEMON: And the vest.

MALVEAUX: And, Jim, how did --

SPELLMAN: And a vest. He was wearing a vest underneath his scrubs, sort of a prison uniform.

MALVEAUX: How did the people inside of the courtroom respond, and who was there? Were there family members of the victims or was Holmes' family in -- somewhere in that courtroom as well?

SPELLMAN: I'm not sure if Holmes' family was there. From my vantage point, I just couldn't tell one way or the another. But there were family members of the victims for sure. Nobody said a word. There weren't gasps, nobody spoke out, and we never even heard Holmes' voice through the whole thing. So, it was quiet, everybody maintained just sort of proper decorum in a courtroom. The family members, I can tell you, their eyes -- I did not see their eyes leave Holmes. And they just stared at him the entire time regardless of what was going on with the hearing itself.

LEMON: And everyone thought that, you know, he might act out or say something but I think that was probably one reason that Tamara -- that Tamara Brady sat right next to him, the public defender -- one of the public defenders, to make sure -- to keep -- sort of keep him in check, and to make sure that he had some support in the courtroom.

SPELLMAN: Yes, the other main public defender assigned to him, Dan King, he handled all of the interactions with the court while Tamara Brady sat next to him the entire time.

MALVEAUX: And, Don, I understand you have information on a couple of fronts here, but first of all, describe for us what he was like when he was in custody, his behavior in custody away from the cameras.

LEMON: Well, when he was in custody, we are told that in the jail that he was acting erratically, that is his eyes were sort of rolling around, and these are -- this is -- these are from published reports and also from inmates who had been released from this detention center that's right here where we are standing. And that he was spitting at people, spitting at the police officers and through his jail cell. They had to keep him in solitary confinement in there.

And also, too, that he was under suicide watch in this detention center and will be. And he, again, placed in protective custody, obviously, in solitary confinement, because they are afraid that he might harm himself. But, again, you saw his behavior, Suzanne, in the courtroom, it was very odd. Also, they are concerned in the -- in the -- in the detention center that the other inmates, the other prisoners, might try to harm him, and that's why they kept him away from them, because they are upset that he -- at what he did, and that he killed and harmed so many people.

MALVEAUX: I understand, too, that there are still people who are being hospitalized from this shooting, and one of the affiliates is talking about reports of a suspicious package at one of the hospitals. Do we have any information about that?

LEMON: We have -- we've heard about it, and we sort of just want to back off of it, because we're initially hearing that it was a suspicious package and that they were going to evacuate that building, it was one of the buildings that John Holmes worked in at that center, because he was a student there. But we're not sure, they said they were doing it as a precaution. So, I think everyone wants to just sort of tamp it down.

SPELLMAN: You can be sure, after an incident, like a few days ago, everybody's going to be on edge and they're going to be pretty sure that they double check absolutely everything that pops up

LEMON: And, Suzanne, I want to say this, when we were talking about his behavior, I spoke to, you know, Jessica Ghawi -- you know about Jessica Ghawi, the aspiring journalist, I spoke to her brother. And he is going to come over and talk to me, and hopefully he comes over in enough time that you and I can talk to him. Jordan Ghawi, he said he was upset. He said, I couldn't come today. And he said, I watched it, Don, and he's going to come and talk to us. But he said, I was so upset. I think this guy was putting on -- he is a smart guy. He knows that, you know, if he is declared mentally incompetent, that chances are he won't face the death penalty. So, hopefully he will come over in our hours and we can -- you and I can both talk to him.

MALVEAUX: All right, thanks, guys. We are going to -- we're going to have to take it there --leave it there out of the darkness. Brighter day is going to come, now, those were the words from President Obama during his visit to Aurora, Colorado. That happened yesterday. The president, he met with many of the shooting survivors as well as the relatives who -- of those who had died. And he says, the focus is trying to remember and honor their lives.


BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It was an opportunity for families to describe how wonderful their brother or their son or daughter was, and the lives that they had touched, and the dreams that they held for the future.


MALVEAUX: The president says that the stories of bravery, courage, following the shootings, they represent what is the best in all of us. The 12 people who died in that movie massacre, of course, you know, they were friends, they were sons, daughters, these are just folks who went to the theater just to, you know, take in a movie, have a good time. The youngest person was 6 years old, and the oldest, 51, most of them in their 20s. They leave behind these families who are devastated, and they are simply searching for answers.

I want to bring in Poppy Harlow who joins us from Aurora, and talk a little bit about the vigil that you attended last night, that these folks are trying to heal. It is just the beginning of this process here. The grief and the shock and what is to come next. How are they actually dealing with this, Poppy?

POPPY HARLOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I think, Suzanne, for everyone it's different. At the vigil last night, that was sort of the first bit of hope that I have seen here -- reporting here on the ground since Friday. Thousands of people coming together, many of them friends and obviously we saw many of the family members on stage at that vigil and some very, very emotional. And people who didn't know any of the victims or weren't associated with this in any way other than that this is their home, this is where they are from, Aurora and broader Colorado. So, that was really, really touching to me, the mayor of Aurora saying, look, we are going to come out of this, we are going to reclaim our city, he said, with goodness, kindness and compassion. The governor of Colorado, John Hickenlooper, reading off the names of those 12 who were killed and the people at the vigil responding and saying, we will remember. And we're not out of the woods at all and this is what I was also reminded of last night because you still have 17 victims that were shot in the hospital at this hour, eight of them in critical condition. So, we're not out of the woods at all. What did stand out to me was the sense of hope and the willingness to forgive. I talked to a lot of people at the vigil last night that are very confused as to why this could happen, why this would happen. But at the same time, they said, for this community to move on and them to move on personally, they have to begin to forgive. They're not going to forget, but most of the people that I talked to said, we can find it in our hearts some way to forgive. And that was pretty shocking, to me, to have that big of a heart just days after this tragedy.

MALVEAUX: Do we know if anybody, when they talk about when their loved ones, do they bring up this whole theme, we've heard it before, about good versus evil, the batman theme? We heard from a couple of people I talked to last week after this had unfolded, and they were trying to -- trying to make sense of all of this and what had actually taken place in that theater. If it meant something to people who went there.

HARLOW: I have -- the families that I have spoken with and the friends of those who have died and those who have been seriously injured have not talked to me about the sense of good versus evil. I think they all agree that this is pure evil. But what they have talked to me about is sort of coming to grips with what happened, how it happened and why. And some of them having a sense of responsibility, you know, whether it's some men in the Air Force convincing their friend to come with them to the movie that night, and they feel a little responsible, which they are not. But, you know, that's something that stood out to me -- Suzanne.

MALVEAUX: All right. Well, Poppy, thank you very much. We appreciate your talking to those folks, and we certainly wish them what -- the best that can be at this time, at this very, very difficult time for their families and their friends and the community at large. We're going to have more after the break.


MALVEAUX: Well, it happened. Over the weekend, a Penn State campus statue of the late football coach Joe Paterno, it was taken down. That's right. The school's president called the statue a, quote, "reoccurring wound" to the victims of child abuse. An independent investigators report held that Paterno and other school officials were accountable for failing to stop child sex abuse by former assistant coach Jerry Sandusky. The Paterno family, they released a statement of their own saying, "tearing down the statue of Joe Paterno does not serve the victims of Jerry Sandusky's horrible crimes or even help the Penn State community. We believe the only way to help the victims is to uncover the full truth."

And today the NCAA announced major penalties for Penn State over the scandal. I want you to take a look at this. We are talking about $60 million fine, four-year ban from bowl games -- that is where the schools make their big bucks -- and all the Paterno wins since 1998, they are gone. Taken off of the books. Which means he is not the winningest college football coach anymore.

I want to bring in CNN's Mark McKay in Indianapolis, where this announcement was made.

Mark, let's take a look, first of all, and a listen to the NCAA president, Mark Emmert, what he said earlier today.


MARK EMMERT, NCAA PRESIDENT: This is just an unprecedented, painful chapter in the history of intercollegiate athletics.


MALVEAUX: So, Mark, they didn't give Penn State what they called the so-called death penalty, banning the school for playing for the season, but this is pretty significant, this punishment. Historic even. What is the impact?

MARK MCKAY, CNN SPORTS: Well, the impact is huge, Suzanne. In fact, it's worth noting the death penalty was on the books, was on the table for Penn State. But the NCAA president also telling us this morning here Indianapolis that these sanctions on Penn State University needed to reflect what he called a culture change. He also wanted the sanctions not to bring harm to those not involved in this case. But as you said, and you ran through the penalties that are now imposed on Penn State. They are impressive. It is very impressive and unprecedented for sure.

Let's talk about that $60 million payment, which would be paid out over five years, $12 million a year. That, in fact, will go to an endowment fund that is set up for victims of social -- of child sexual abuse. The meaning there to put the money to good use, if it can be at all, according to the NCAA president.

You said that they'll vacate all the wins from 1998 to 2011. 1998 being the first year that sexual abuse had been uncovered at Penn State University. Banned from playing in the bowl games for four years. No bowl games for Penn State. So used to going to the post- season, Suzanne. And, of course, that scholarship reduction.

The NCAA sending a message for sure in this sanctions and also saying that the presidents and the university presidents and the chancellors are in charge, Suzanne, not necessarily the athletic directors or the football coaches.

MALVEAUX: So, Mark, what is the response? What's the reaction for people who are on the campus who say, you know what, we weren't a part of this. We -- but -- and yet we're being punished?

MCKAY: Well that was one of the main points of the NCAA president here in Indianapolis today, that perhaps there needs to be a total cleansing of college football, of athletics as a whole, that priorities, especially at Penn State University, were obviously out of place and that if these sanctions can send a message to any university, do a gut check. In fact, that's what the NCAA said. Maybe that there needs to be a gut check, that all these universities have to put they priorities in place after a very sad, sad incident at Penn State.

MALVEAUX: All right, thank you, Mark.

Twenty thousand doctors, activists and lawmakers, they're gathering in the nation's capital with one goal this mind, finding a cure for AIDS. We're going to tell you how.


MALVEAUX: It's an alarming wakeup call for black men who are gay or bisexual. A study has found high rates of new HIV infections. Dr. Carlos Del Rio, he is one of the lead researchers, he is co-director of the Emory Center for AIDS Research. He's joining us from Washington, D.C., where there's an international AIDS conference that is taking place.

Doctor, thank you for joining us. It is called the so-called brother study. It takes a look at six cities. So we're talking about Atlanta, Boston, New York, Los Angeles, San Francisco and Washington, D.C., And you find that the rate among black, gay and bisexual men are comparable to populations of countries of sub-Saharan Africa.

We understand that we do not have sound from the doctor, so we're going to go to a quick break. We're going to fix that problem and then we'll get right back to him to talk about this very important issue.


MALVEAUX: It is the so-called brother study. It looks at six cities. We're talking about Atlanta, Boston, New York, Los Angeles, San Francisco and Washington. And this is a study that Dr. Carlos Del Rio is a part of in actually determining the rate among black gay and bisexual men. And you found that it was comparable to some populations in countries in sub-Saharan Africa. Can you explain why it is that it is so prevalent and why it's gotten worse?

DR. CARLOS DEL RIO, EMORY UNIVERSITY: Hello. How are you today?

Well, the epidemic in the U.S., it's a concentrated epidemic. It's not a generalized epidemic in -- like it is in countries in sub- Saharan Africa. But within that concentrated epidemic, we have certain populations that are at increased risk. And that disparity in the epidemic, both in cities and in race and ethnicity, a lot of it are things that need to be understood in order to stop this epidemic. And one of the major glaring disparities on the epidemic is that most cases are among men have sex with me, and most cases are among black men have sex with men. So understanding why black MSM's have higher risk and higher rates of HIV is one of the most important things in order to address this epidemic. And it's not --

MALVEAUX: So tell us what you've found. Can you give us a sense of why it is that you -- your study finds that they have a risk of higher -- of 50 percent higher than their white counterparts? DEL RIO: Well, a couple things. So the first thing is that -- is not that they have more sexual partners. They're -- an important issue is that they have higher rates of sexually transmitted diseases. But there are other issues that are probably playing a major role. And those are poverty, unemployment, racism, homophobia. So, again, we've got to remember a lot of the determinants of risk are social determinants of disease or social determinants of the risk of infection. So addressing those is going to be very important in addressing the epidemic.

We also learned from other studies presented at the meeting that there's less percentage of them who are in care, less percentage of black MSM's already infected who are receiving antiretroviral therapy and who are benefiting from antiretroviral therapy. So again, addressing all the disparities across a cascade of prevention and care is going to be very important.

MALVEAUX: So, doctor, what do you do. I mean if you're a member of that community, how do you protect yourself?

DEL RIO: Well, I think we -- number one, everybody has to talk about it. I think it's very important that this is discussed at the community level. This needs to be discussed with our peers, with our friends, with our relatives. I think there needs to be a community mobilization.

I think there also needs to be a community action. There needs to be really an understanding that this is a -- this is a real issue in our community and that there needs to be ownership of the problem. And there is happening that the black AIDS community is really taking a big lead on this. And at the same time, we also need leadership from the administration, from Congress, in putting the resources that are necessary to address the epidemic of -- among black MSM's . It is really a very, very important health -- public health problem in our country.

MALVEAUX: And, doctor, let's broaden this out a bit because you're at the International AIDS Conference there in Washington, D.C. They're releasing some results, some studies that say -- from the Results Education Fund that say there is a possibility here of ending AIDS, of finding a cure. How close are we to that reality?

DEL RIO: I think finding a cure, we're very far away. But I think what we know nowadays is that we have the tools to really stop the epidemic. What is missing right now is scaling up those tools. We need to really scale up the things we know. We need to scale up education. We need to scale up testing. We need to scale up entry into care. We need to scale up condom distribution. And we need to scale up access to antiretroviral therapy. And if we do that, we have the possibility of really making a major impact in the epidemic, not only domestically, but globally.

MALVEAUX: All right, doctor, thank you very much. I appreciate some optimism on that -- on that front. Thank you. Appreciate it.

The man accused of the shooting rampage at a Colorado movie theater, well, he made his first court appearance today. James Holmes, he is accused of killing 12 people and wounding 58 others. You can see he sat there motionless in the hearing. His hair was dyed bright red and orange. After the hearing, Holmes was led back to jail where he is now being held in isolation.

Well, in the four months before this suspect, James Holmes, allegedly sprayed bullets into this crowded movie theater in Aurora, Colorado, he had been busy stockpiling weapons. I want you to take a look at what he purchased here, allegedly purchased: an A.R.-15 rifle, a 12-gauge shotgun, two handguns, 6,000 rounds of ammunition, an array of riot gear, including tear gas and a bulletproof vest. Much of this was bought with a click of a mouse. The arsenal of weaponry was delivered straight to his apartment door.

With us, former FBI assistant director, Tom Fuentes.

And, Tom, put it in perspective for us, because, to me, it sounds like an awful lot of weapons here. And do we know even if there were background checks that were required to get this stuff online?

TOM FUENTES, FORMER FBI ASSISTANT DIRECTOR: Hi, Suzanne. I think the amazing thing is that, yes, he bought 6,000 rounds of ammunition on the Internet. And the individuals who run these Internet sites or gun shops said that it does not raise their eyebrows. It is no big deal to them, somebody buying thousands of rounds. what that telling you not only his situation of buying thousands of rounds, but how many people are buying this stuff in that quantity around the country that it does not raise eyebrows or concerns on their part. Also the purchase of the ammunition and the tactical gear does not require the background check that the purchase of firearms requires. And in his case, his only prior violation with the law was a traffic ticket. So, there's no amount of background checks that would have prevented him from lawfully buying these weapons.

MALVEAUX: And we also see -- we have heard from the owner of a gun range who said he was suspicious of James Holmes because he heard this freakish kind of voice mail, or voice message on the machine. And there was no vetting involved here. How do you prevent something like that?

FUENTES: Well, you don't. You are relying on someone owning a gun shop to take a little bit of extra due diligence in selling a weapon to somebody. In this case, what raised his concern was when he came to the gun shop. and normally, buying guns, you would go physically to the gun shop, and you would fill out forms and the forms for the background investigation, and then there's normally a two-day delay before you can pick up the weapon, so trying to reduce the number of crimes of passion that somebody might do in the heat of anger. But in this situation, it raised a concern with him that he tried to call this individual, and then he heard the bizarre messages on his answering machine, and then told the other employees in that gun shop, do not sell something to him, and notify me if you hear from him at all.

So -- but how many others are going to do that? And just because somebody acts a little bit weird or naughty does not necessarily mean that somebody is going to not sell them something that they can lawfully buy.

MALVEAUX: I want to take it back to the Internet, because there was some action done in 1999, a bill presented to Congress just looking to regulate some of the sales of ammunition over the Internet and it was never adopted. Do you believe this is a loophole that is a dangerous one?

FUENTES: That is one. And also, in 1994, you had the ban passed against the assault rifles against 19 different military-type assault rifles, and this A.R.-15 being one of the types. That ban also included large-scale magazines that would hold additional rounds than the standard 30 or 50-round magazines commonly called clips, that you would use in this case. Now, that law was allowed to expire in 2004. So, once again, individuals can buy all of these type of A.K.-47, M- 16-type weapons and the extended bullet holders and the magazines, themselves. In this case, he used a drum magazine that holds 10 rounds.

The fortunate thing about that is that, as a former SWAT team member and commander, I can tell you that the law enforcement and the military do not use those drum, because they are so unreliable and jam so easily. So, so in the case of the law enforcement authorities, they will use the straight plug-in magazine that you pop up to the gun, not these drums you see from the 1920s gangster movies or the Tommy guns. And like you see in the "Batman" movies themselves, we've see the depiction of using these drums. But they are not reliable and anybody knowledgeable would not use one.

MALVEAUX: It is going to fuel the gun debate.

We appreciate your perspective, Tom.

Jury selection is now under way for the former police sergeant accused of killing his third wife and suspected in the disappearance of his fourth wife. We will have the latest on Drew Peterson's murder trial.


MALVEAUX: We have been focused today on the court appearance of Colorado theater massacre suspect, James Holmes, who is the 24-year- old who made his first court appearance since this shooting rampage that left 12 people dead, 58 others wounded. There is another legal case that is developing today that we are following and that is of the former Chicago area police officer, Drew Peterson. You may recall that he is accused of killing his third wife. And he is now the leading suspect in the disappearance of his fourth wife. Well, the jury selection gets started today.

I want to bring in our CNN legal contributor, Sunny Hostin, from New York to talk a little bit about this.

It seems like it is unusual how this is starting out. Can you explain? SUNNY HOSTIN, CNN LEGAL CONTRIBUTOR: Well, it is. We are talking about three years of pretrial wrangling over a lot of the evidence in this case. I think what has been so fascinating is a jury was initially, a jury pool was initially chosen and, for two years, Suzanne, they have been waiting around. Being told not to engage on the Internet with anything that has to do with Drew Peterson and not the watch the movie, and you know, not the watch any news reports. And those same jurors, potential jurors are now going to be chosen. 12 people will be chosen to decide his fate. So that in and of itself is really fascinating about this case. I don't think it has ever been done.

What is also interesting about this case is that it is really going to come down to hearsay statements, admissible hearsay statements from the two women. One is Stacy Peterson, his fourth wife, who is missing, and also Kathleen Savio, his wife who he is accused of killing. And this is unprecedented that you have a case that is largely built on the hearsay statements from two former wives.

MALVEAUX: And how -- what kind of statements? Where are they getting the statements from? Are these statements that are video statements or through journals, or where are they coming from?

HOSTIN: Oh, my goodness, they are coming from just about everywhere, and there are 14 of them of note, that we have sort of been looking at, Suzanne. And one in particular that struck me as interesting the missing fourth wife, Stacy Peterson, who was 30 years younger than Drew Peterson, who he was having an affair with when he was married to the third wife. Well, she's met with her pastor, and told her pastor that Drew Peterson admitted to killing his third wife. And she also discussed the night of that killing and how she woke up and Drew Peterson was missing from the home and left, dressed all in black, with a bag of women's clothes or returned with a bag of women's clothing that did not belong to her. So certainly, you know, there are a lot of statements that were made to other people about Drew Peterson that may be coming in. We don't know yet which ones are coming in.

MALVEAUX: We will be following that case. That is unbelievable.

Thank you, Sunny. Appreciate it.

HOSTIN: Thank you.

MALVEAUX: And Marcus Samuelson is a celebrity chef and loves food, and puts the money where the heart is. We will tell you about his inspirations to business, and how he is giving back to the community.


POPPY HARLOW, CNNMONEY.COM CORRESPONDENT: Hey, everyone. Here on the "Help Desk" today, we are talking about the student loans, an important issue, especially right now.

And we have Donna Rosato and Greg Olsen, our experts, with us to break it all down.

Donna, listen to the question we got.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why isn't the government doing more to give more student loans out to make it easier for students?

HARLOW: Do you have kids going to college?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have one in and one going into college next year.


HARLOW: So, for so many parents, students, right now, it is getting harder and harder to afford college. What's your advice?

DONNA ROSATO, SENIOR WRITER, MONEY: Well, certainly, this person is right. When you have kids in college, it feels like it is feeling insurmountable the amount you have the pay. But the government has aid out there, but with the problems of the budget deficit, they have not increased aid, and more people applying for aid. So more competition for the dollars. So of course, you want to max out whatever federal aid you can get.

But the federal government is not the only place you can turn to for aid. A lot of the states subsidize loans, which helps tremendously. And there other sources, too. This is a person who has kids in college, and so the time for savings is done. But when you are in school, there is a lot of things you can do the cut the tab. You can live off campus. You can work part-time. That's the thing I think people really need to realize, don't take on so much debt.

HARLOW: What do you think, Greg, too, about the four-year colleges where all said and done, it is $40,000 and $50,000 a year? Is it better to start of at the community college level at a few thousand of years?

GREG OLSEN, PARTNER, LENOX ADVISORS: I'm a huge advocate of state school. I'm also an employer of 200 people at the firm, and kids going to state schools are some of the best thought leaders of the company. So a $17,000 education as opposed to a $50,000 education is not necessarily a worse. In fact, we think that the kids are fantastic graduating from these state schools.

HARLOW: All right, guys, thank you. We appreciate it.

If you have an issue or a question that you want the experts to tackle, upload a 30-second video with your "Help Desk question to



MALVEAUX: One of the victims of the massacre in Colorado, the theater, is Jessica Ghawi. She was an aspiring sportscaster.

Joining us now is Don Lemon, who is with her brother, Jordan Ghawi.

And, Don, if you could, if you could ask him about his sister and why he is there today at the court appearance of the suspect and what he is going through and what his sister was like.

DON LEMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, well, Suzanne, he came up and called me afterwards and said he didn't want to go. He intentionally did not go to the hearing today.

Because you say?

JORDAN GHAWI, BROTHER OF SHOOTING VICTIM: There is no reason to. This guy has had his 10 minutes of fame, and I don't need to see the face of the man who has taken my sister's life.

LEMON: You said you were so angry about this, you told me over the phone that you might do something stupid.

GHAWI: Yes, that is the other reason. I was afraid that I may try to get my hands on that man.

LEMON: Yes, and you believe that his behavior in court, you believe it is a put-on.

GHAWI: I do. This guy is nothing -- he h is a coward and a genius. He knows what he is doing. He is playing the system. I don't believe for a second he is sitting there with the wide eyes and pretending to be incoherent, he knows what he is doing.

LEMON: We want the say, too, Suzanne, that Jessica Ghawi is going to be cremated here.


LEMON: And you said it is hard to talk about your sister --

GHAWI: In the past tense.

LEMON: And you will fly her, and her remains back to Texas Wednesday.

GHAWI: Yes, that is correct.

LEMON: When is the memorial service?

GHAWI: 10:00 a.m. Saturday in San Antonio.

LEMON: How is your mom?

GHAWI: She has friends and families to come to see her and share stories to celebrate my sister's life. And as long as she is talking about my sister, she is still there.

LEMON: And your dad?

GHAWI: He is devastated, but staying strong.

LEMON: Suzanne, any questions for him?

Suzanne wanted to have you talk about your sister and the kind of person that she was. And I know you have been talking a lot about that, but, you know, you have had time to reflect in the past couple of days.

GHAWI: Right. Some of it has changed. She is still the most amazing person that I will have in my life, but she wanted to be on the media, and she wanted to be doing these reports and she is, just not in the way she would have liked it. So it is, it is really hard.

LEMON: Suzanne. Do you have a question?

MALVEAUX: We offer our condolences, obviously. And she was one of the first people that we learned of on Friday. There was a Facebook page and a lot of friends who came forward to talk about your sister. She sounds like she was a very special person. Can you tell us a little bit about her?

LEMON: Yes, talk more about your sister. She is talking she was one of the first person who was named after this came happened. And you came out and talked about it. You were very vocal on your Facebook page and on her Facebook page as well. Tell us about that.

GHAWI: We were able to get word fairly quickly that it appeared that she had sustained the fatal injuries, so we were able to get the word out and get her story told so that the hostage taker -- and that is exactly what he is, and you kill a few people in a hostage situation, that ends the conversation. And this guy has killed 12 and the conversation is still about him. So we are trying to steer that national attention to her and the other families rather than focusing on the coward. So it has just been that, using the national media to get her story out and the other victims.

LEMON: Do you think this helped anyone, to see him in shackles or anything?

GHAWI: No, it didn't help anybody. We knew he was in jail. And if anything, it may be more detrimental. I know it is to me, to see his face, especially the file photo of him with that smirk on it, and knowing that this man is responsible for the loss of my sister.

LEMON: Thank you very much. Thank you, Jordan. Best of luck to your family. And we will continue to speak with you and check up on you again.

That service is held on Wednesday, Suzanne.

And I have to tell you that I did speak with some of the victims who were in the courtroom just a short time ago. They said after the main proceeding, they were taken to another room and they were able to go to another room, Suzanne, and watch it over again, so they could be more emotional. They could not be as emotional as they wanted to be when it was happening. But they were taken into another room where it they could watch it again and be more emotional and talk to each other and comfort each other.

MALVEAUX: Well, we wish them the very best.

Thank you, Don. We appreciate it.

We will take another break.


MALVEAUX: Marcus Samuelson, he loves food. He's a celebrity chief that appeared on "Top Chef Masters" and "Chopped." He donated his winnings to help people in need. He has a new book out called "Yes, Chef," a memoir. In it, he describes how culture influences his work. He was orphaned in Ethiopia after his mom died, then adopted and raised by Swedish parents. He joins us now.

Good to see you, Marcus.


MALVEAUX: -- in person. I like "Chopped." I watch "Chopped."

MARCUS SAMUELSON, CELEBRITY CHEF: Fun show. It's so inclusive. People all over the country. And they say we just did "Chopped" last night. Families are doing the mystery baskets. It's a lot of fun.

MALVEAUX: Create a little competition within the family.


MALVEAUX: I love one of your passages in the book. It's funny. You say your love for food didn't come from your mom because she made pastas that prisoners wouldn't touch.


SAMUELSON: I love my mother but the true cook was our grandmother, Helga. In my restaurant, there's Helga's meat balls. She's on the walls. Everything that I know about cooking comes from my grandmother.

MALVEAUX: What is your favorite dish?

SAMUELSON: I love meat balls. I grew up in Sweden. Just making them again really reminds me of cooking with my sisters and my grandmother.

Have you been there?

MALVEAUX: I have not

SAMUELSON: Have you been to Ethiopia?

MALVEAUX: I have, actually.

SAMUELSON: How nice.

MALVEAUX: The capitol.

SAMUELSON: Yes. I was born in a sort of small village. And me and my sister and my mother had tuberculosis. And my mother walked, she walked us 75 miles to get us to the hospital. She passed away. And that's how I got adopted to Sweden. I talk about that in "Yes, Chef." But you'll get a nice copy over there. I talk about how to overcome major stuff and eventually become the chef that I've become.

MALVEAUX: It really is amazing because it's the American dream. It starts in tragic circumstances. Now you're one of the top chefs of the country. Tell us a bit about your restaurant in Harlem and how you have managed to bring people from the community and give them opportunities there as well.

SAMUELSON: We always inspired by Sylvia's words. I wanted to have a restaurant in the center of Harlem that combines and unifies the city. New Yorkers would come up and look at Harlem as a normal inspirational neighborhood. It's a big deal. It's with a lot of pride that I work and live in the neighborhood that I love so much in Harlem. It's a game changing community. We're grateful for that.

MALVEAUX: One of the things that you've done, while you worked with the White House --


SAMUELSON: I have. So did you.

MALVEAUX: -- and the president -- But I didn't cook for them. You managed to cook. What did they enjoy? What was that like?

SAMUELSON: Cooking the first state dinner was such a big honor, for the prime minister from India. He was a vegetarian. We did a menu based on both American food and Indian food. That was my biggest highlight in terms of cooking. Then I was lucky enough to get the president up to the Red Rooster to eat at the restaurant. That was fun. All of Harlem came out.

MALVEAUX: What did he order?

SAMUELSON: He likes simple things. He loves the corn bread. Humble beginning. He likes basic things.

MALVEAUX: He used to eat that on the campaign all the time. You have a dream. You have a passion. Clearly it took a lot of work to get where you are. What would you advise folks?

SAMUELSON: America is the greatest country. I'm super patriotic. Who knew that somebody born in a clay hut in Africa can live his dream and live here in America? It says a lot about how open-minded and kind we are as a country. I think it's important to think about that when you have bad times and political things. It's also important to remember it's still people wanting to come to America every day. I'm a prodigy of that. I have a lot of mentors. I think, dream big. Dream big and hold onto your dreams because it can happen. It's possible. I'm proof of that.

MALVEAUX: You are proof of that. One thing that we are tackling and dealing with the challenge in this country is obesity.


MALVEAUX: How do you -- you're fit and trim. Some chefs are eating their food all the time and you have communities that are obese. How do you conquer that? How do you make people change their behavior?

SAMUELSON: Eating with a spiritual compass. That doesn't just go for the inner cities in the country. Opening a restaurant like Red Rooster, is there to challenge the bridges, making sure of closing that gap. But I think getting better options in poorer communities. In rich communities, you have junk too but you have the farmers market and better options. So get healthier food, seasonal food, getting farmers market in communities such as Harlem Matters.

MALVEAUX: Yes, Absolutely.

Next time you have to bring me some food, OK?


MALVEAUX: If we have you back on, I want a dish. I want a taste.

SAMUELSON: I promise you.

MALVEAUX: All right.

SAMUELSON: And I'll see you in Harlem.


Thanks, Marcus.

SAMUELSON: Thank you so much.

MALVEAUX: Good to have you.

CNN NEWSROOM is continuing now with Brooke Baldwin.