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Nancy Grace
Grandmother Stabbed Daughter-in-Law
Aired July 26, 2012 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
RITA COSBY, GUEST HOST: And breaking news tonight out of the New Orleans suburbs. A father of two makes a desperate call to 911 when his fiancee of 11 years, the mother of their two children, ends up stabbed to death in the middle of the night. Investigators arrive at the crime scene to find the murder weapon, a steak knife. While the mother of two bleeds to death in her boyfriend`s arms, he`s able to identify the suspect to the cops. Who? His own mother.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In the blink of an eye, a fight turns deadly!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) happened so quick!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When the mom of 34-year-old Richard Hartman allegedly stabs his girlfriend.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Richard Hartman says he tried to stop his 54-year- old mother, Joan Hartman.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In the corner of my eye, I seen my mom pull out a knife, and she stabbed Tanya. It went through her vertebrae and three places (ph) of her heart (ph).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Twenty-seven-year-old Tanya Knowler later died from stab wounds to the back and stomach.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I couldn`t stop it! I couldn`t save her! And I got to watch my -- the love of my life go off in a gurney and my mom go off with cops.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Investigators say tensions between the grandmother and her daughter-in-law could date back 11 years.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`s standing over her daughter-in-law screaming, Die, you know, I hope you die.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now the couple`s two daughters, just 6 and 9, are left without a mother, their grandma facing life in prison.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tanya was just the most -- most beautiful...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: And good evening, everybody. I`m Rita Cosby, in for Nancy Grace. Thank you so much for being with us tonight.
A mother of two stabbed to death in front of her own boyfriend. And it`s not a late night robbery or a home invasion. Cops say it`s revenge by the boyfriend`s mother.
For the very latest, let`s go to John DePetro. He`s a talk show host with WPRO radio. John, how could this terrible thing happen?
JOHN DEPETRO, WPRO: Rita, this should have been a quiet night, a beautiful night, a family home. You have father sleeping, mother, fiancee, who`s also a mother, son, two beautiful children sleeping, what should have been a quiet night with an ideal American family and ends in tragedy as this young man is standing over his fiancee of 11 years after this violent confrontation between his fiancee and his own mother.
COSBY: You know, John, describe this confrontation. And apparently, there had been problems before, but this night, it just exploded. Describe what happened.
DEPETRO: Rita, apparently, things had been building. Now, keep in mind, this family was displaced after Katrina. You have a son, his fiancee, his parents, his two daughters, 6 and 9, all under one roof. There`s tension throughout the relationship between mother, Tanya, and also Richard`s mother, Joan. This has been escalating.
An argument ensues. Richard is trying to watch television, and suddenly, late into the night, early on Sunday morning, it escalates into violence. We`re not sure what provoked it, other than possibly, Rita, the threat of the fiancee removing those two children from the home, maybe in just frustration. Maybe it was an idle threat, maybe not.
But we do know the grandmother apparently took things in her own hands and jumped into action as her son stood and watched in horror.
COSBY: You know, John, I cannot imagine what was going on through her son`s mind. It must have just been horrific and heartbreaking. And the mother stabs the fiancee not once, but twice, correct?
DEPETRO: Rita, Joan Hartman -- and we don`t know what was going through her mind -- reveals a steak knife out of her sweatpants and stabs her future daughter-in-law, the mother of her two grandchildren -- stabs her in the back.
Richard jumps into action, holding his loving fiancee of 11 years, the mother of his two children, as his mother jumps back into action, stabs her in the abdomen as his (SIC) son looks in the eyes of his fiancee of 11 years, mother of two children, she gasps her last breath and dies in his arms as his mother is holding the steak knife.
COSBY: Michelle Southern, news reporter with Louisiana News Radio Network. When you hear all of this -- and then cops come -- apparently, to just add horrible salt to this wound, she`s making some comments -- this is Grandma -- over this fiancee`s body. What is she saying?
MICHELLE SOUTHERN, LOUISIANA RADIO NETWORK (via telephone): Well, when deputies were dispatched to the house and they walked in, apparently, Joan Hartman was standing over Tanya`s body, screaming, Die, die, why don`t you just die.
COSBY: Wait a minute. She`s saying, Die, die, why don`t you just die? This is after she stabbed her twice?
SOUTHERN: She stabbed her once in the back and then she stabbed her in the abdomen. And that`s what -- that`s what she was -- that`s what deputies witnessed whenever they walked into the house. And they had already been called out. And that is what they saw, you know, according to sheriff`s deputies that we spoke with, whenever they walked in. She was standing over her body, saying, Why don`t you just die?
COSBY: Dr. Bill Manion, New Jersey medical examiner, it just -- it`s such a horrific thing. Again, this is a grandmother doing this. This is her son`s fiancee of 11 years. They`re living together under the same roof. It`s the son`s house. She`s stabbed twice, the first time in the back and apparently goes through the heart.
Was that a fatal blow, the first one, Dr. Manion?
DR. BILL MANION, MEDICAL EXAMINER: Absolutely. Absolutely. Any -- any stab wound that would involve the heart, where the aorta, the large blood vessel, the large veins going to the heart, inevitably are fatal. The person will become unconscious within 30 seconds, usually, and then they`ll die within minutes.
COSBY: And obviously, then the next one was the abdomen. What kind of damage did that cause or, indeed, it sounds like she had passed away soon after the authorities arrived.
MANION: Yes. Well, most -- a lot of people can survive stab wounds to the abdomen because they`ll just damage the intestine, and as long as no major vessels are hurt. It sounds to me like the stab wound to the back, if it involved the heart or the aorta, a major blood vessel, the renal artery, you`re going to bleed out very quickly.
COSBY: You know, Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst and author of "Dealbreakers" -- Bethany, when I hear this and what we were just hearing Michelle talk about this comment -- here she stabs her twice, and then when the cops arrive, she`s standing over her -- there she is dying, laying in a pool of blood -- and she`s saying, Die, why don`t you die? And there were some reports that she was laughing. It`s just -- it`s mind-boggling!
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: It`s mind-boggling. It`s malicious. It`s hateful. And grandma has a severe personality disorder. She probably had what we call obsessional paranoia. That is the belief that her daughter-in-law was negatively affecting her well-being, and she was preoccupied with it constantly.
But how does she feel the daughter-in-law was negatively affecting her well-being? Was daughter-in-law taking the love of the grandchildren? Was daughter-in-law the only voice of reality in this crazy household?
Was daughter-in-law the one who was potentially going to take the grandchildren away or interfere in the love between the mother and the son? And her obsessional belief that daughter-in-law was making her life worse simmered over and waxed and waned over many months, maybe even years, until she finally got up the courage to commit the act.
COSBY: It`s just so horrible. And how often do you hear something like this, where a grandmother does this to her daughter-in-law, and again, the mother of her two grandkids, too?
MARSHALL: Well, we don`t really hear it that often. But we do know that homicide usually occurs in the context of our most intimate relationships, our attachment systems.
And the reason for that is it`s in the context of our attachment systems that we feel rage, envy, hostility, betrayal, the fear that love is being taken away from us or reality is being intruded in a way that we do not want to know about.
So it`s rare that one -- we think of the stranger homicide as more predictable and understandable. But really, homicidal ideation occurs in the context of attachments.
COSBY: And Andrew Scott, former chief of police of Boca Raton, also the president of AJS Consulting, when you hear this -- how often have you seen something like this escalate to the point -- I mean, there are tensions. There`s domestic issues. But to get to the point where a grandmother would take out a steak knife and not only stab her once but twice, and then say, Die, die, laughing -- I mean, this is just over the top and just so horrible for this family!
ANDREW J. SCOTT, FMR. POLICE CHIEF, BOCA RATON: Well, normally, police officers don`t have that opportunity to actually walk in almost immediately after the event and then hear an exclamation such as she stated, I hope you die, or, Die. It`s rare that happens.
In domestic violence situations, though, the heat of the moment -- and the fact she used a knife -- and it`s my understanding she actually purchased the knife in anticipation of an altercation -- clearly shows premeditation and the intent to carry it out, which she did, and then followed up with the statements that she wanted her to die. Very convincing first degree murder charge, in my mind.
COSBY: And it`s second degree murder in Louisiana. Let`s actually go to Eleanor Odom. Eleanor, what would it take to get first degree in this case? Why is it second degree?
ELEANOR ODOM, PROSECUTOR: Well, I think probably they`re going for the fact that maybe she didn`t have the intent to kill, although, certainly, I would argue as the prosecutor...
COSBY: She got the knife!
ODOM: ... yes, she does...
COSBY: Yes, she got the knife!
ODOM: I know!
COSBY: Come on!
ODOM: She got the -- she got the knife. But with first degree, then you`d have a death penalty case, although arguably -- come on, let`s look at this. This could be a death penalty case easily. She bought the knife in advance. I think she planned it. She claims she had it for protection.
But think about this, Rita. She bought a new knife. Surely, there are knives in the home. The reason she bought a new knife, because it would be extra sharp. She didn`t have to worry about that. So I think this could be first degree all the way.
COSBY: You know, John DePetro, what do we know about this knife and when she got the knife? I`ve seen some reports that she got it for, quote, "self-protection," although it sure sounds like her fiance -- the son`s fiancee was the one who needed the knife, you know, just for protection, something. I mean, this is -- this woman just sounds nuts!
DEPETRO: It`s a good question, Rita. And that`s what we don`t know, though. We don`t know. Did she buy it thinking somehow she was in danger and needed self-defense? Or was it more sinister, that she knew a confrontation was coming?
But Rita, one thing -- Rita Cosby, one thing that is so important -- and you know this -- is the knife is a personal type of killing and stabbing. It`s far different than someone that uses a gun. The knife is personal. It shows rage. It shows someone at a boiling point.
And to do it and do it in front of her son, and with the son there witnesses and then standing over her, almost gloating and laughing -- this is very personal. This was maybe a mother trying to reclaim her home.
COSBY: And you know, Michelle Southern, I think John hit some great points. Here he is, he`s trying to save his fiancee, and then the mother stabs her again while she`s dying in his arms. I mean, it is just so horrific!
SOUTHERN: And another -- you know, another one of the things that I think the son pointed out in reports that we have seen, too, is that she was carrying it around with her, and in fact, this knife -- she had it in her sweatpants.
COSBY: I know, Michelle, that`s unbelievable! She`s just carrying it around in her sweatpants, happenstance?
SOUTHERN: In happenstance. I mean, of course, she said that she was carrying it around to protect herself. But like you said, the knife was brand-new. She had it in her pants that night. I mean, it is a second degree murder charge, but that`s still -- you know, she faces mandatory life with hard labor, without parole. I mean, whether it`s premeditated or not, the fact is it was in her pants during the argument.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The mom of 34-year-old Richard Hartman allegedly stabs his girlfriend, the mother of his two children, multiple times.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mom pulled a knife out of the back of her sweats and just stabbed her. And then when she fell to the ground, I checked her pulse and I called 911, and Mom came running again and stabbed her in the abdomen!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Grandma, facing life in prison.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: And she may be the mother-in-law from hell, stabbing her daughter-in-law not once but twice while she is dying in her fiance`s arms.
And joining us now is Richard Hartman. It was his mother who allegedly stabbed his fiancee to death. And Richard, first of all, I cannot imagine how you and your family are feeling. We are so sorry for your loss. How is everyone doing tonight? It must just have been overwhelming emotions for you.
RICHARD HARTMAN, MOTHER STABBED FIANCEE TO DEATH: Well, first I want to say thank you for calling. And you know, my father -- my father has dementia. He has MS. He`s been disabled my whole life. He doesn`t understand why his wife hasn`t come home yet, why he can`t go see her or call her.
My oldest, with her autism, she hasn`t quite grasped it yet. It`s still processing with her. My youngest, she -- you know, we had to tell her that God decided to take Mom home so he could take care of her and make her not sick no more, because Tanya had multiple health issues.
But I can`t tell them the whole story. They`re too young to know what really happened and why Meemaw (INAUDIBLE) on vacation. You know, until they get older, I can`t tell them the truth. I had to basically lie to my kids to protect them, and that was almost just as hard as anything I`ve been through, lying to my kids. But I have to protect my daughters, no matter what.
COSBY: Richard, how old are your daughters, too? You know, some very, very precious young girls. And one of them, I understand, walked in and saw their mother, what, lying on the ground?
HARTMAN: My youngest is 6. Her birthday is actually Sunday. This happened two weeks before her birthday.
COSBY: Oh!
HARTMAN: My oldest is 9. When I came home, my youngest told me she looked out her door and seen the paramedics and Mommy was fainted. And I never told her what happened.
But she come up to me yesterday, she said, Daddy, you`ve got to quit smoking cigarettes because that`s what killed Mommy. And it`s just so hard for me just to hear that, you know? I mean, it`s not a problem about that.
But my youngest -- you know, after Katrina, we moved in together. Me and my mother bought a house together because both my parents are disabled. Tanya had diabetes. She had lupus, rheumatoid arthritis and a heart condition. She was in nursing school. She had a year left of nursing school. With all the -- you know, with all the things going on in the house, she still went through school, still fought through every challenge and smiled. And...
COSBY: What was the source of friction, Richard, between, you know, your fiancee and your mom? And did you see this coming in any form?
HARTMAN: You know, the friction -- I had two dominant females in the house. So every once in a while, there was bickering, there was, you know, not really a power struggle, but no matter what me and Tanya did, it was never good enough.
COSBY: Did it ever get to physical altercations before or did it...
HARTMAN: Not like this. You know, there might have been a little nudge or something, you know. But it always just a little bickering, you know, and then they`d walk off and kind of cool down and they`d get back together and they`d hang out, watch TV, you know, play a game or -- they`d be friends again in a couple minutes.
COSBY: No -- nothing beyond a nudge before.
HARTMAN: Well, no, not with her. Now, me growing up personally, you know, I went through the abuse. I went through the hatred. And you know, my mom told me I should have never been born, I was a waste of flesh. You know, that was me.
When my kids was born, my mom totally changed. She was a different person. She treated these kids like they was gold. You know, she did everything in her power to make sure the girls was happy. And for somebody that loved them kids so much, how could you take away the most important thing in their life, especially two weeks before youngest`s birthday! Because she don`t understand. You know, she -- all she knows is the most - - the two most important women that was always there for her are gone.
You know, I was here by myself -- I was the one that worked. I had five disabled people in my house that I supported because Social Security didn`t pay enough to pay the bills for them. You know, I worked, and that was what I did. I stayed here to take care of my father.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COSBY: And I`m Rita Cosby, in for Nancy Grace. I want to continue with Richard Hartman. His mother allegedly stabbed his fiancee to death.
And Richard, I want to have you kind of take us back to what happened that very difficult night. You heard -- you said you heard nudging and shouting. You were in the house at the time. Then what happened next?
HARTMAN: Well, you know -- I`m sorry -- I heard some -- you know, they was kind of fussing. So I didn`t pay no mind, you know? I was watching TV, and I heard some shuffling in the other room. So I ran in there, I broke them up.
Tanya turned away to walk towards the kitchen, and I was turning away, and out of the corner of my eye, I seen Mom pull something out the back of her sweats. And when I turned around, it was already in the back of Tanya.
She fell to the ground, and so I`m fighting Mom off with one arm and I`m holding pressure on the wound the best I can. Now, I let off the wound to get my phone to call 911, and Mom comes around and stabs her again and starts laughing, Why don`t you just die?
So I let go of the wounds. I`m struggling with Mom to make sure she don`t stab me or go after nobody else in the house. And when the cops came, I let them in and I just went in the front yard and started crying because I knew what happened.
She looked right at me, and she took a big -- she took a big breath of air, and it was like all of her color left. You know, it was like her spirit left her body.
COSBY: Richard...
HARTMAN: And you know, the police was telling me...
COSBY: Richard, she was...
HARTMAN: ... that they took her for X-rays, but...
COSBY: She was in your arms when she passed away, Richard?
HARTMAN: Yes! And then Mom -- it looked like she was coming back again, so I let go of Tanya. And I was trying to fight my mom until the police came, you know, trying to restrain her from hurting Tanya anymore or coming after me because how do I know one of the stabs wasn`t intended for me and she just got carried away.? How do I know she wasn`t going to go after my kids or my dad that I`ve been fighting my whole life to take care of my father?
I mean, don`t -- I want to make this clear. My mother is my mother. I will always love my mother. But what she did to me and them girls, I will never forgive.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In the blink of an eye, a fight turns deadly!
HARTMAN: It just so -- happened so quick!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When the mom of 34-year-old Richard Hartman allegedly stabs his girlfriend.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Richard Hartman says he tried to stop his 54-year- old mother, Joan Hartman.
HARTMAN: Out of the corner of my eye, I seen my mom pull out a knife and she stabbed Tanya!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Twenty-seven-year-old Tanya Knowler later died from stab wounds to the back and stomach.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COSBY: And I`m Rita Cosby in for Nancy Grace.
A really terrible story near New Orleans. And this is a case where a mother-in-law allegedly stabs her daughter-in-law, not once, but twice. And then says, "die, die," even when the cops arrive.
Joining us for a recap of all this, let`s go to John DePetro, radio reporter.
John, give us a sense again of what happened in this household.
JOHN DEPETRO, TALK SHOW HOST, WPRO RADIO: Rita Cosby, you have Richard, you have his fiancee of 11 years, the mother of the two girls that they have, Tanya Knower, and then you have Richard`s parents, Joan. It`s a Saturday evening. There`s tension between Joan and Tanya. And it escalates to the point where Tanya threatens she`s moving out of the house and taking the two grandchildren with her.
It reaches the point where Joan, who is carrying a steak knife in her sweat pants, produces the knife and proceeds to stab Tanya, shortly after midnight, in the back. As Richard runs to his fiancee`s side, and starts calling 911 frantically, his mother comes back. But the deathknell and stabs her in the abdomen and says now, "die," as her son looks on horrified.
Rita, Richard just said something very interesting, and that was his mother became a different person when those two girls arrived on the scene. It seemingly was tension between mother-in-law and daughter-in-law, and just the mere threat of pulling those children out of the house seemingly set the mother into a murderous rage, where she literally stabbed the daughter- in-law to death, mocking her, and as the police come in, hear her standing over her laughing, Rita, and saying, "die," as her son looks on in horror.
COSBY: It`s unbelievable, John, when I hear this.
You know, Michelle Southern, news reporter of Louisiana Radio Network. It is just so horrible and so tragic. And my heart goes out to Richard and his family. And those two poor little girls who were there, too, as well, who are in the other room. And also the dad who`s in the other room as well.
And this -- describe sort of the scene, if you could, Michelle, of what cops came upon when they arrived at the place.
MICHELLE SOUTHERN, REPORTER, LOUISIANA RADIO NETWORK: You know, a lot of times, and you know what we`ve been hearing is that this family was displaced by Hurricane Katrina, which builds up a lot of tension. We see it all the time here in the entire state of Louisiana. And you have a family that moves in, and the tension is just growing. Apparently Joan --
COSBY: But Michelle, that`s no excuse for -- you know, I covered Hurricane Katrina. I mean that`s no excuse for going over the edge to this degree. This is outrageous.
SOUTHERN: I completely agree. And apparently Joan was just not approving of the way that Tanya was raising the two children. And you know with Tanya having health problems, maybe that`s the reason that Joan was screaming, "why won`t you just die," is because apparently Tanya had gone through so many different health issues, that that is just what this grandmother was wishing the entire time that they were living together.
COSBY: Yes. And maybe she`s just articulating it then in this horrible tone. Let`s go to the attorneys. Let`s go to Eleanor Odom, death penalty qualified prosecutor. Also Peter Odom, defense attorney, Renee Rockwell, defense attorney.
You know, Peter, when I hear this, it is just -- it breaks my heart for this family. And you even hear the son, you know, here was Richard, this is the son of this woman who is now, you know, behind bars and rightfully so. Just outraged and cannot forgive what she did. I mean, how could somebody? Stabbing his fiancee of 11 years not once, but twice, he`s fending her off trying to save her, fending off the mother, trying to call 911. And then the mother is laughing saying, "die, die." I mean it almost doesn`t get any worse, Peter.
PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I`m focusing on three things here. First of all, we know that there had been domestic violence in the home between the daughter-in-law and the mother going on for some 11 years. Even Mr. Hartman tells us that had resulted in physical confrontations between them.
Secondly, I`m focusing on the fact that Tanya felt so in fear of her daughter-in-law that she went out and bought a knife to protect herself. Third --
COSBY: But we`re not sure of that. Let me just say, Peter, we are not sure if -- are you trying to defend her that -- that you normally walk around -- you know, how about moving out? How about getting another house? How about going to counseling, Peter? You don`t go and buy a knife and then just keep it in your sweat pants.
P. ODOM: Third, I`m focusing on the fact that what Mr. Hartman found --
COSBY: Let`s go back to second, Peter. Peter, wait a minute. Let`s go back to second. What are you trying to say, that it`s normal to go live in a house and carry a knife? You call the cops if you`re worried about your life for some reason.
P. ODOM: I`m saying, Rita, that sometimes when people are in fear, they buy weapons to protect themselves. Millions of people do it every year.
COSBY: And -- but you know what, guess who was in fear that day? This poor woman Tanya, who wasn`t stabbed just once but twice. She was in fear. And so was the son in fear.
P. ODOM: So --
COSBY: And guess who was -- carrying the wife? Not Tanya, this other woman.
P. ODOM: So the third thing --
COSBY: The mother.
P. ODOM: -- I`m focusing on is the fact that Mr. Hartman heard a scuffle in the room before he came in and saw very quickly a stabbing. We need to focus on what happened. What precipitated this and the potential that this might have been something along the lines of self-defense.
COSBY: Self-defense? Wait a minute.
P. ODOM: Yes. Exactly.
COSBY: She is standing over her -- wait a minute, Peter. She`s standing over her --
P. ODOM: You weren`t there. I wasn`t there.
COSBY: -- saying, "die, die." I mean did you hear any shred of self- defense? She`s the one with the knife. We`ve heard no reports that the other woman was with any sort of weapon. We`ve heard no reports of any bruising on the other woman.
P. ODOM: Correct.
COSBY: All we`ve heard is a stab to the heart that killed her.
P. ODOM: You know --
COSBY: And then she`s down and as the other woman, it didn`t seem like Tanya was lunging for her while she`s dying on the ground.
P. ODOM: But you weren`t there, Rita. And I wasn`t there. But we don`t have the whole history.
COSBY: Yes, you weren`t there. But -- but you know who was there? The son was there. And this was his mother.
P. ODOM: Right.
COSBY: This is his mother who he clearly loved. He moved in the house with her. This is not a bad relationship.
P. ODOM: I`m basing my conclusions -- I`m basing my conclusions on what he said.
COSBY: Wait a minute. Peter, Peter, you know more -- you know more than the son. Let me see, you know more than the son. Is that it, Peter?
P. ODOM: I never said that, Rita. Those are your words, not mine. I`m basing my conclusions and my questions, really, on what the son has said.
COSBY: Right. And you know what, let me go to Eleanor Odom because what the son says is I can never forgive my mother. And he described a very horrible scene, Eleanor, not just being stabbed once, holding his fiancee who is dying at this point, trying to call 911, and guess what, he`s afraid of his mother at this point.
I`m not hearing any self-defense in any form. Are you, Eleanor?
ELEANOR ODOM, FELONY PROSECUTOR, DEATH PENALTY QUALIFIED: Heck no, but the defense, Rita, is grasping at straws like they usually do. They`ve got to come up with some BS. And this apparently is going to be the thing.
It is clear that her intent all along was to do harm. This isn`t any self- defense. This isn`t any protection of this grandma. She was out for blood. And that`s exactly what she got.
COSBY: And everybody, the "Nancy Grace Family Album" is back. It is showcasing your photos from the iReport.
Here is the Carol family. They`re from St. Petersburg, Florida. They love the beach, they love gardening and Sunday dinners at grandma and grandpa`s.
Please share your photos through the iReport family album at hlnTV.com/Nancygrace and click on "Nancy`s Family Album."
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Grandma reportedly admits to police she recently bought a knife, expecting an altercation.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This was just so unexpected. It`s just so senseless.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Standing over her daughter-in-law, screaming, "die."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everything they give her she deserves.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: And I`m Rita Cosby in for Nancy Grace. Let`s go back to Richard Hartman. It was his mother, sadly, who allegedly stabbed his fiancee of 11 years to death, stabbed her not once, but twice.
And you know, Richard, I`ve got to get your reaction. Peter Odom, defense attorney, shamelessly, as you probably just heard, made it sound like your mother was defending herself when she was stabbing your fiancee.
RICHARD HARTMAN, MOTHER ALLEGEDLY STABBED HER GIRLFRIEND TO DEATH: Let me -- let me say this.
COSBY: Yes, please respond to that.
(CROSSTALK)
HARTMAN: Self-defense does not constitute stabbing somebody in the back.
COSBY: Yes, you`re right. That was the first stabbing, was in the back. Did -- you were there. What did you see?
(CROSSTALK)
HARTMAN: My mother when she was walking --
COSBY: What did you see?
HARTMAN: When I -- out of the corner of my eye see my mother pull something out of the back of her sweats and by the time I turned around, Tanya was on her way to the ground. To me, self-defense is face-to-face, eye-to-eye. You know I don`t have all the eight years of, you know, all the lawyer schooling, but evidently that don`t give you common sense going to all that school. Because that is not self-defense in my eyes. And that really, really chaps my hide.
COSBY: Yes, I agree with you. I think it`s disgusting.
Let`s go back to Peter Odom who threw out this theory here, and also Renee Rockwell.
Peter, what do you have to say about that? She`s walking away and she stabs her in the back.
P. ODOM: Like I said --
COSBY: You give me a little self-defense argument there. Give me -- let`s hear your best one, Peter.
P. ODOM: Like I said, you`ve only got -- you`ve only got part of the story here. I think the police need to do an investigation, find out what the forensics say, and you haven`t heard Tanya`s side of the story, have you, Rita?
COSBY: Well, she has said she did it. She said she absolutely stabs her twice --
P. ODOM: Of course she did it. And -- self defense admits that.
COSBY: And guess what, guess what, guess what, the other thing is also, Peter, she also says that she was there laughing and cops saw that. It wasn`t even just -- this is not just the son`s story. This is the cops seeing these things.
P. ODOM: Don`t you want to hear what Rita says?
COSBY: You tell me --
P. ODOM: Don`t you want to hear what Tanya says?
COSBY: You know what? You know what, I do want to hear, what I hear her saying is, "die, die." That doesn`t sound self-defense.
P. ODOM: Look, if you want to make your decision based on half a story, you go ahead. I want to hear the whole story, Rita.
COSBY: You know what I do want --
P. ODOM: That`s the only fair way to go about it.
COSBY: You know what, I want to hear the whole story, but here is Tanya.
P. ODOM: Good.
COSBY: She`s dying out there and here`s grandma out there saying, "die," continue dying, continue dying.
Renee Rockwell, you know, give me a break on this. What`s the deal?
RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: OK. First of all, Peter, Rita, and Mr. Hartman, this may never go to trial. We`re missing the big crazy part of this, like you said, halfway through. This is nuts. You know why? This is a woman that`s medicated. She has had suicide attempts. She`s had a couple of breakdowns. Police have had to be called where she is fighting with the police. I think there`s a mental issue here. And this may never go to trial.
COSBY: Whoa, whoa, wait. Renee, are you going to say this is an insane woman? She goes and buys the knife. She admits to the cops she goes and buys the knife. That doesn`t sound like someone who just snapped, Renee.
ROCKWELL: Just because it was premeditated doesn`t mean --
COSBY: Just because?
ROCKWELL: -- that she`s not crazy.
COSBY: Renee, Renee, you know what --
ROCKWELL: Doesn`t mean she`s not crazy.
COSBY: You know, you do bring up a good point. But it clearly shows premeditation. It shows she knows right away what she did it wrong. It shows she knows the first blow wasn`t strong enough so she goes for a second in front of her poor son and then it also shows she`s laughing and saying, "die, die." It doesn`t sound like someone who is in a fog at the moment, Renee.
ROCKWELL: OK. But if she is in front of the police and she`s standing over the body laughing saying, "die," is any part of that normal, Rita? I`m sorry, I don`t think you`ll see a trial in this case.
COSBY: Eleanor Odom --
ROCKWELL: You`re going to see her in a state hospital.
COSBY: Well, and let`s go to Eleanor Odom. What do you think? Do you think we`ll see a trial?
E. ODOM: I think we could very well see a trial. And here`s why. Even if she tries to use this mental health defense, the prosecutor is going to point out all the steps she did to get to the stabbing. She bought the knife. Not only -- she was carrying it in her sweat pants. She did the first wound, if you will. She struck first. She struck the victim Tanya in the back. That wasn`t enough for her. She truck her again in the front.
I mean, my god, Rita, what else do you have to do to show your intent to kill someone?
COSBY: Yes -- exactly. Let`s go to Richard Hartman. Again, this is his mother, and this is his fiancee that we`re talking about, the fiancee, the one who died.
Richard, when you hear this, do you think your mother is sick? Do you think she is mentally ill? Give us the background.
HARTMAN: Let me -- let me tell you. When I was at the police station and they were talking to me about what happened, I have three disabled people I take care of now. My mother was in her right sense of mind to write down everybody`s medications, everybody`s doctor`s appointments. What kind of food they do and don`t like. She wrote down five pages of stuff for me. If you`re not in your right sense of mind, you`re not going to remember everybody`s medication.
My dad has six of them. My daughters have four or five apiece. Doctors` appointments. If you`re not in your right sense of mind, how are you going to remember that? You know, and --
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: In the blink of an eye, a fight turns deadly.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Richard Hartman says he tried to stop his 54-year- old mother, Joan Hartman.
HARTMAN: My heart to my mother. But I can never forgive that.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Now the couple`s two daughters, just 6 and 9, are left without a mother.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: And I`m Rita Cosby in for Nancy Grace. Let`s go back to Richard Hartman, it was his mother who is now accused of second-degree murder, stabbing not once but not twice his fiancee of 11 years, basically right in front of him.
And Richard, you were just saying right before the break, you were talking about these medications that she was very clear-minded right afterwards. You don`t see anything here that would say that she has a mental illness or something like that is what you`re saying.
HARTMAN: Well, she has always been an aggressive person. She was -- you know, she was diagnosed with bipolar a few years ago. She tried take her life. And my fiance -- well, I call her my wife, was actually the one who saved her life, that kept her from dying.
COSBY: She save herd life and then in turn she takes her life?
HARTMAN: Yes, ma`am. Yes, ma`am.
COSBY: You know, Richard, can you tell me also a little about your fiancee? We just see this wonderful smiling face. And you talk about earlier, she`s extraordinary woman. She overcame a lot of obstacles.
HARTMAN: She had -- she had a lot of health issues. She, like I said, she had multiple health issues but she always put everybody first, no matter what it was. She always made sure my dad was taken care of. You know. She -- help him take a bath. Help him, you know, clean itself up. Any other girl wouldn`t have done that for me. There`s not too many girlfriend or fiances that would sit there and help your dad change his -- you know, change himself or do stuff like that, you know?
She fought through everything, even with two disabled kids. And her illnesses. She had left nursing school to get her license. She had a year left.
COSBY: So she had everything ahead of her? How are the kids doing?
HARTMAN: You know, as long as I`m smiling and I look normal, my kids are running around playing. But as soon as I start tear up, my kids are watching me closely. And as soon as I start tear up or you know, break down a little bit, they do, too, so I have to be strong for my kids.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HARTMAN: My youngest says she woke up, see mommy on the ground, she thought mommy fainted. And I said, yes, mommy fainted. Seven and 9 is not old enough to tell them what really happened. I don`t how I`m going to make it but I`m going to do it. I got two to make her proud. I`ll never forget her. She`ll always be in my heart.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: And I`m Rita Cosby in for Nancy. Be sure to get ahold of us on Facebook and Twitter, everybody.
Let`s go to the callers. Let`s go to Jody from Minnesota who`s on the line.
Jody, what`s your question tonight?
JODY, CALLER FROM MINNESOTA: My question is, why didn`t the son intervene when he first heard things were getting physical? Before the knife came out?
COSBY: Richard, let me go to you. Richard, it sounds like it just totally took you by surprise, is that correct?
HARTMAN: Well, I mean one minute they wasn`t even really yelling at each other, it just kind of bickering back and forth, and then I heard some shuffling that`s when I ran in there.
COSBY: Did you ever imagine, Richard, it`d get to the point where it became so physical?
HARTMAN: No. I -- no. We would never have been in this house.
COSBY: Let`s go to Patricia from Louisiana who`s on the line. Patricia, what`s your question?
PATRICIA, CALLER FROM LOUISIANA: Hi, Rita. I was just wondering would it be premeditated if the mother was carrying around a knife in her waistband?
COSBY: You would you certainly think so. Let`s go to Eleanor Odom, death penalty qualified prosecutor.
Eleanor, she was carrying this knife in her sweat pants. She admits to buying it, it sounds like, before. Whether it is self-defense or not but she`s claiming she had it. Pulls it out and again stabled not once but twice. Does that sound like premeditation to you, Eleanor?
E. ODOM: Well, yes, Rita, but not only can you plan something that -- premeditation, it only takes an instant to form that premeditation and then, you know, commit the act. So that didn`t have to be months or weeks of planning. It could have happened just right then and there.
COSBY: Yes, and it sounds like also, in her case, not just was there planning, as we heard also, Eleanor, post fact from Richard, afterwards she`s clear, she`s talking about medications, she`s talking about all these things so if they`re going to use this sort of mental defense, which I just think gets thrown around so many times, there are people who have it, but this one is extremely questionable, I think.
And when you hear this, Eleanor, you go, wait a minute, she somehow was able to stab once, go again, then she`s saying die, and then afterwards, she`s clearly thinking about medications and all these other things. It sounds like she was fine before and after.
E. ODOM: Exactly. And that`s what you show when you`re trying to defeat the so-called mental defense is her actions both before and after. And afterwards, she was going everything kind of normally according to her own son, by the information she gave him at the jail. If she would had a true mental illness she wouldn`t have been able to clearly think though all of those things.
COSBY: And Renee Rockwell, defense attorney, real quick, why is it not first-degree murder in Louisiana?
ROCKWELL: Typically, first-degree murder, Rita, is reserved for killing a police officer, a contract killer, somebody -- shooting into a crowd of people where you`re putting more people in danger, killing. Second-degree murder is your run-of-the-mill murder in Louisiana for which you can get life without parole.
COSBY: And everybody, tonight, let`s stop to remember Army Sergeant Matthew Ingram, 25 years old from Pearl, Mississippi, killed in Afghanistan. He was awarded the Bronze Star, two Purple Hearts and the Army Commendation Medal. A post office and courthouse memorial have been named in his honor and he loved motorcycle riding, playing poker and the video game, "Call of Duty." He leaves behind his parents, James and Patricia, his brother Jamie and his widow Holly and daughter, Chloe.
Matthew Ingram, a true American hero.
And I want to thank all of our guests tonight, but our biggest thank you, of course, goes out to you for being with us and letting you -- letting us into your homes every night.
I also want to thank all of you for your very sweet words of sympathy about the recent passing of my hero, my father, Lieutenant Richard Cosby. My father was a POW in World War II who was rescued by American troops and in his honor we are raising money for the USO, helping severely wounded troops and their families.
Go to quiethero.org. You have got to click on the words "quiet hero" and the USO box and be sure to say, "In memory of Richard Cosby." My father always told me we are blessed to be an American, and live in this great country and that freedom is not free.
I`m Rita Cosby in for Nancy Grace. Dr. Drew is coming up next. Have a wonderful evening, everybody.
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