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Nancy Grace
Mother Bludgeons 22-Year-Old Disabled Son to Death
Aired August 07, 2012 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. A landlord brings the new renters to look at an upstairs one-bedroom apartment, but when they arrive, they can`t get in. The renter, a mother of one, says the place is a mess and tells them to all come back after she cleans up. But what the landlord doesn`t know is that just hours later, that very apartment becomes a bloody crime scene, including a dead body.
Bombshell tonight. A 22-year-old male with cerebral palsy repeatedly stabbed, then pounded in the head with a hammer nearly two dozen times. In a sick twist, we learn that the victim is Mommy`s 22-year-old son, and she`s been living in the home with her son`s dead body for five days.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What may have led to the death of Gabriel Philby-Zetzsche?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Weapons in garbage, with bedding and clothing.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: In a very apparent attempt.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Fans in the window blowing the smell of the dead body out of the apartment.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: To cover up what happened.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What brings people to murder?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: His mother had been living in that house with his body during that time.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Creepy to see what you see on "CSI" right outside your bedroom window.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Fans at the window to blow the stench of a dead body out?
Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.
Bombshell tonight. A 22-year-old male with cerebral palsy repeatedly stabbed, then pounded in the head with a hammer nearly two dozen times. In a sick twist, we learn the victim is Mommy`s own son, and she`s been living in the house with her 22-year-old son`s dead body for five days.
We are taking your calls. Straight out to Michael Board, WOAI. Michael, five days in a one-bedroom apartment with a dead body?
MICHAEL BOARD, WOAI: Unbelievable! And police are describing this as one of the most gruesome crime scenes they`ve ever seen. And according to the police reports, it`s easy to see why.
This woman allegedly used every knife in the house to attack her own son. They believe the murder weapons in this case, they believe, include a bread knife, several steak knives, a hammer. And when that wasn`t enough, allegedly, according to the police reports, this woman turned the hammer around and used the claw of the hammer to also attack her own son.
If this is true, it`s easy to see why this was as gruesome as it sounds, blood splattered on all of the walls of this one-bedroom apartment.
GRACE: Joining me right now, special guest, Sheriff Craig Apple, the Albany County sheriff. Sheriff Apple, thank you for being with us. You know, no one seemed to notice the son, a 22-year-old with cerebral palsy -- his name Gabriel -- was missing. In fact, the only thing that really alerted anyone that something was going wrong was when the mom wouldn`t let the renters in to see the apartment.
What happened, Sheriff?
SHERIFF CRAIG APPLE, ALBANY COUNTY (via telephone): First of all, thank you for having me. Well, basically, they didn`t really have too many friends in the area. They did have some family in the area, with a brother and a sister-in-law. But he really was a bit of an introvert. But he was a good, outgoing kid. He just didn`t have many friends in the area. And he would Facebook and tweet. So there weren`t too many close neighbors that knew them well.
GRACE: Also with me, Bryan Fitzgerald, crime reporter with "The Albany Times-Union." So did the landlord think it was odd when the mother of one refused to allow the prospective renters in?
BRYAN FITZGERALD, "ALBANY TIMES-UNION" (via telephone): Well, yes, I`m sure she thought it was a little bit odd, but you know, they had been planning to move out for a little while and I think they hadn`t been able to come up with rent, and the landlord kind of had an agreement, All right, you guys can keep staying a little bit longer, as long as you can pay us some money. And then they kind of finally agreed to move out, and you know, some other people looking at the apartment.
And I think her excuse was, You can`t come upstairs, it`s a mess because we`re packing. Everything`s kind of disheveled and in a state of disarray because we`re packing stuff up and moving it around. I don`t think in what their wildest dreams they thought there might have been a -- you know, Gabriel`s body up there. But they certainly thought it was odd, but nothing that would have warranted a call to the police or anything like that.
GRACE: When prospective tenants come to take a look at the one- bedroom apartment, hoping to rent it, they`re shooed away by the current resident. She says that it`s a mess, come back later after she`s cleaned up. What they didn`t know is that just a few short hours later, that very apartment would turn into a bloody crime scene, complete with a dead body, the victim, Mommy`s own 22-year-old son suffering from cerebral palsy.
Out to Matt Zarrell. What else do we know tonight, Matt?
MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: OK, there are multiple things. One is we talked about the bloody crime scene. There was not just blood spatter on the walls, there was blood spatter on the ceiling, as well.
Cops were later able to find the murder weapons hidden away. She made multiple attempts to cover up the crime scene, including putting the murder weapons in the trash outside the home, as well as bloody clothes, bloody towels and bedding, all covered with blood, all put away, hidden in a trash receptacle outside of the home.
GRACE: You know, Matt Zarrell, what you are saying, those very facts, may be the undoing of any mental defect defense. The fact that she hid the weapons clearly shows she knew right from wrong at the time of the incident.
Out to the lines. Lashonda in North Carolina. Hi, Lashonda. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. How are you? My question is, who else could have done it?
GRACE: Good question.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If nobody else -- thank you.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: That`s a good question because that`s where the defense is doing at this hour. Straight back to you, Matt Zarrell. Just because the mom lived with the son does not mean she`s the perpetrator. He was extremely active on Facebook and Twitter, very, very outgoing. What more do we know, Matt Zarrell?
ZARRELL: OK, well, cops for the timeline at least have pinpointed that they believe he was alive on the Thursday night about 9:30 PM, based on the posting that he put on Facebook. Now, we know that mom and Gabriel were the only persons living in the home.
Now, what happens is, is that the aunt a few days later comes by, sees the mom distraught outside. She says she doesn`t know what happened, but that Gabriel is definitely dead. But she keeps saying, I don`t know what happened.
GRACE: So give me the lowdown, Matt Zarrell. She stays in the apartment with the dead body for five days?
ZARRELL: Yes. Cops believe she was there for five days. She also made numerous attempts to cover up what would be a decomposing smell in the house, putting -- opening all the windows, pointing the fans to blow the smell out of the windows.
What happened was, is that when the aunt came by and the mother said he`s definitely dead, that is when the aunt contacted 911. The mother told the aunt, Do not go upstairs. She didn`t want her to go upstairs and see what had happened inside the house.
GRACE: Bryan Fitzgerald, crime reporter with "The Albany Times- Union," fans at the windows to try to air the apartment out? What could be more compelling and pointing toward guilt?
FITZGERALD: Yes, no, she did, yes, she`s pointing fans out the window. She took some bed sheets and towels and tried to wipe some of the blood down, and from what we`re told, you know, took those and then threw them right out in the trash with the murder weapons, and definitely had, you know, gone to lengths to cover her tracks. And it seems as though that once she got to the body, she kind of -- you know -- you know, didn`t know what to do at that point.
GRACE: At this hour, we have obtained the 911 call. Let`s see what we can learn.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
911 OPERATOR: 911. What is the address of your emergency?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What`s the address here? It`s P&L Deli on -- I believe (INAUDIBLE) Westerlo.
911 OPERATOR: OK, I need a better address than that.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK, what`s the address, do you know? Right across from the bank. I can`t -- I don`t know the address.
911 OPERATOR: OK. Road name?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is -- hold on (INAUDIBLE) 401 (INAUDIBLE) Main Street in Westerlo.
911 OPERATOR: 401 and Main?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
911 OPERATOR: OK. And what`s going on there?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think my nephew`s dead.
911 OPERATOR: You don`t have an address?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No. (INAUDIBLE) the P&L Deli. They live right upstairs.
911 OPERATOR: And why do you think that?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Because my sister-in-law is outside and she doesn`t know what happened.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: OK, wait a minute! Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa! Come out of that 911 call, guys. What`s with the dispatch going -- they say there`s a dead body and there`s -- You still don`t have the address?
Michael Board, who is that 911 dispatch? The woman says, My nephew is dead, and the dispatch is, like, you still can`t get me that address? What?
BOARD: You know, if you`re a crime reporter, you can get a sense of urgency in people`s voices when you listen to it. When you listen to things like police scanners or 911 calls, you can tell when something`s serious and someone takes it seriously because there`s a sense of urgency in their voice. There did not seem to be a sense of urgency at all when this woman said that, I think my nephew...
GRACE: Well, you know what? You know what, Board? You`re really putting perfume on the pig. Let`s listen to the rest of the 911 call. Play it, Dana.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
911 OPERATOR: OK, and what`s going on there?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think my nephew`s dead.
911 OPERATOR: You don`t have an address?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, I think (INAUDIBLE) P&L Deli. They live right upstairs.
911 OPERATOR: And why do you think that?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Because my sister-in-law is sitting outside here (INAUDIBLE) doesn`t know what happened. She said there`s blood everywhere.
911 OPERATOR: How old is he?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: 21 -- 22, I`m sorry.
911 OPERATOR: OK, is he breathing at all?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He`s not breathing, right? He`s dead, she said (INAUDIBLE)
911 OPERATOR: Is there anybody there that can go and just check besides her?
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: Bryan Fitzgerald, crime reporter with "The Albany Times- Union," how many times does the woman have to say, He`s dead? What does she have to do, take out an ad on Park Avenue? Who`s this dispatch person?
FITZGERALD: I don`t know. I know, he...
911 OPERATOR: Is he breathing?
FITZGERALD: Yes, you sure he`s not breathing? I mean...
GRACE: Yes, lady, I told you, he`s dead!
FITZGERALD: I mean, it sounds like the guy was, you know, doing a crossword puzzle at the same time and was just -- you know, I don`t know (INAUDIBLE)
GRACE: OK, let`s go back. Bryan, launch an investigation. Let`s see what we can learn.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
911 OPERATOR: How old is he?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: 21? 22, I`m sorry.
911 OPERATOR: OK. Is he breathing at all?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s not breathing, right? He`s dead, she said (INAUDIBLE) not to go up.
911 OPERATOR: Is there anybody there that can go and just check besides her to see if there`s any possibility that he is breathing at all?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`ll run up. I don`t know if I can handle this. I`ll run up, though. She doesn`t want me to go up there.
911 OPERATOR: OK. And this is your sister`s son?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, my sister-in-law, yes.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: OK, Zarrell, I guess I`m going to have to call 911 myself and tell lady dispatch, He`s dead, all right? He`s dead! He`s not breathing. He`s not moving. He`s dead!
Go back to the 911, please.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
911 OPERATOR: All right, so nobody wants to go in there and check on anything at all (INAUDIBLE) OK. I`m just trying, you know, because if he is possibly still alive, somebody could do CPR or something on him.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I will go up and check. She doesn`t want me to go there, though. She says he`s definitely dead.
911 OPERATOR: OK, don`t -- it`s right across the street from P&L, correct?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, right upstairs from there.
911 OPERATOR: Upstairs from P&L? OK, I`m just going to send somebody out there, ma`am, OK? I don`t want to get her any more stressed.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All right, thank you.
911 OPERATOR: All right. If anything changes, call me right back on 911.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All right, thanks.
911 OPERATOR: Yes. Bye-bye.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was just an extremely angry crime. It was a violent crime.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A gruesome crime scene and a very apparent attempt to cover up what happened.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The body of 22-year-old Gabriel Philby-Zetzsche from his apartment where he lived with his mother.
911 OPERATOR: And what`s going on there?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think my nephew is dead.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Gabriel`s aunt was driving by his apartment, saw his mother sitting outside on the steps.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She said (INAUDIBLE) tell me he`s dead and I didn`t go up.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She claims to have no recollection of what happened. The physical evidence speaks for itself. An autopsy revealed Gabriel had been deceased for several days, and the cause of death was a stab wound to the heart and brain injuries caused by blunt force trauma.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is she cooperating with your investigation?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Not at all.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls. According to reports, his mom slept with a dead body for five days.
Out to the lines, Casey in Minnesota. Hi, Casey. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I have many questions now that I`ve heard all this. But one of my biggest ones is, was there a history of abuse with the mom with him at all?
GRACE: OK, don`t hang up on Casey in Minnesota.
Straight to Bryan Fitzgerald, crime reporter with "The Albany Times- Union." Had there been any prior abuse by the mom on her son who`s suffering from cerebral palsy? What do we know, Bryan?
FITZGERALD: Well, we know that the father had called the sheriff`s department and investigators who -- the father had been out of the picture of the family for three years or so. But after the murder, he called the investigators and said, Hey, my ex-wife Tracey has a history of some violent incidents, some of which might be involving Gabriel, perhaps.
But then we didn`t get any specification as to what those might be. We checked down at the courts down there where they`re from, for these incidents. We don`t know any more details on what they might have been. But the courts -- you know, we couldn`t find any documents down there over the phone. I have put in some...
GRACE: OK.
FITZGERALD: Yes.
GRACE: To special guest joining us tonight, Lawrence Carter-Long with the National Council on Disability. I know that you all know, Lawrence -- let`s see Lawrence, please, Dana. Lawrence has been with us on many occasions and is literally the poster boy for cerebral palsy.
Lawrence, thank you for being with us. Lawrence, you know only too well about what his level of functionality may have been. What do you think?
LAWRENCE CARTER-LONG, NATIONAL COUNCIL ON DISABILITY: Well, it seems to me one thing we need to look at is there`s a report put out by the World Health Organization last year that said disabled children are four times more likely to be abused than their non-disabled peers.
In terms of this young man, Gabriel, we know that the type of cerebral palsy he had affected one of his limbs, his arm. So he was clearly not able to defend himself in the manner that another child might.
I think we really need to start asking ourselves some serious questions here. Politicians throw around a lot of phrases like "balanced budgets." What that means is that we`re cutting support and services for people with disabilities. Disability doesn`t just affect the person with the disability, it affects the whole family -- sisters, brothers, fathers and mothers.
We have to ask ourselves as a society have we reached the breaking point? Have we got to the point where balanced budgets mean more than affecting the real lives and the real needs of real people? What do we need to do that?
Also, we need to ask ourselves what are the penalties going to be here? We say we value all life, that our policies, our laws and our penalties for abuse need to reflect that. We can`t just let our disabled children continue to be killed in this manner without making sure that their lives are valued and that justice is served!
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She doesn`t know what happened. She says there`s blood is everywhere. She doesn`t want me to go there (INAUDIBLE) he`s dead.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Twenty-two-year-old Gabriel Philby-Zetzsche was found stabbed and bludgeoned to death. The complaint says knives and a hammer were used.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The evidence the body was inside for three to four days. We`re told Gabe had cerebral palsy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls. Back to Casey in Minnesota. So Casey, it seems to me that it`s very obvious there had been prior abuse on her 22-year-old son. So that`s the answer to your question, although, apparently, there are no police reports, at least in that jurisdiction, that`s going to be able to shown to a jury. But obviously, the father of this young man knows the truth of it.
What`s your other question, Casey?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, my other question is how did nobody -- I`ve lived in plenty of apartment buildings. The walls are thin. How did nobody ever hear anything that was happening, and how did nobody ever wonder what that smell was coming out the windows when she was trying to fan it out?
GRACE: So Sheriff Craig Apple, special guest joining us. He is the Albany County sheriff. Sheriff Apple, again, thank you for being with us. Did the neighbors hear or notice anything unusual?
APPLE: Well, they lived in a one-bedroom apartment over a deli. The deli heard a loud thump on Thursday. That was all they heard. They`ve heard nothing else. And it`s not really in close proximity to any other houses.
GRACE: So the answer to that is no, Sheriff And there`s no way that they could have been heard. You`re absolutely right. We`re showing video of the apartment over a local deli.
Everyone, turns out the mom has been sleeping there in the apartment with a dead body for five days. All right, I think I need a shrink on that one. Wendy Walsh, joining me from LA, weigh in.
WENDY WALSH, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, obviously, this woman was in some kind of state of shock after this event. We know that, as you said, Nancy, she`s probably not going to plead criminally insane because she was trying to cover up what happened...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Wa-wait! Wa-wait! A state of shock. Think bread hammer, (SIC) think the claw -- bread knife, another knife, hammer, the claw of the hammer -- her son had been beaten nearly 24 times in the head with a hammer. Now, why would she, if she`s the perpetrator, be in a state of shock?
WALSH: Because we can actually be in shock that these rageful actions came out of us. So again, there`s a big definition between mentally ill and criminally insane. We talk about this all the time. So she may not be criminally insane, but she may have gone into such a rage -- something caused her to snap. I`m wondering what brought them there just nine months ago and what are these financial problems about.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What may have led to the death of Gabriel Philby-Zetzsche?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A mother killing her own child.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She doesn`t want me to go there. She says he`s dead.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A gruesome crime scene.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think my nephew`s dead.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The 22-year-old victim`s mother has been arrested and charged with second-degree murder.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She says there`s blood everywhere.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: After her son was found stabbed and bludgeoned to death in his bedroom of the apartment he shared with his mother.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Weapons in the garbage, with bedding and clothing.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: In a very apparent attempt.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Fans in the window blowing the smell of the dead body out of the apartment.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: To cover up what happened.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What brings people to murder?
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: His mother had been living in that house with his body during that time.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Creepy to see what you see on CSI right outside your bedroom window.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: Do you know if he was cold or is there any particular reason -- I mean she`s not really giving any --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, she doesn`t remember anything. She doesn`t know. She keeps telling me she doesn`t know. She was sitting out on the steps. She doesn`t have a phone. I was driving by going to work. And she was just sitting there and she didn`t look good so I pulled over. And she didn`t even know how long it`s been.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls. Apparently this young man, just 22 years old. A cerebral palsy victim, bludgeoned and stabbed to death. Stabbed with multiple knives then beaten with a hammer nearly 24 times, a hammer to the head. He`s clearly fully functioning. His mother sleeping in the apartment with his dead body for five days.
Now I went to the shrink, psychologist Wendy Walsh, she started up something about she was in shock, the mother was in shock, this after she allegedly bludgeons her own child to death?
Unleash the lawyers, Kelly Saindon, Chicago, Kirby Clements, Atlanta, Penny Douglass Furr, defense attorney, Atlanta.
What about it, Kirby?
KIRBY CLEMENTS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You know what, I think the psychologist is on to something there. Number one, we know that there was some tremendous financial distress that was going on, she had a child with emotional distress. And I will say this, there is no history of violence from her toward this young man.
So clearly, there was something that went on, and I`m going to say the phrase you hate to hear, she apparently snapped. She was in there with the body for five days which is indicative of something really being terribly wrong psychologically with her. So there is -- I think that the psychologist was on to something, Nancy.
GRACE: OK. Please put Kirby Clements up. On to something is not really a defense.
CLEMENTS: Yes.
GRACE: I appreciate that speculation. That wild hypothesizing that she`s on to something. But on to something is not a recognized defense in the criminal code book.
CLEMENTS: Extreme emotional disturbance is a recognizable defense to homicide.
GRACE: Extreme emotional disturbance --
CLEMENTS: Extreme emotional disturbance.
GRACE: -- does not rise to insanity and that can be claimed every time there`s -- I think I`m hearing Penny Douglass Furr. I wan to throw this to you, Kelly Saindon and, Kelly, what is -- what is Kirby trying to say?
KELLY SAINDON, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: You know, as a prosecutor, I`m not buying what he`s trying to say. He`s trying to say that the psychologists and psychiatrists are on to something because they would allow this to be a viable defense in court. I don`t see it.
Mom`s behavior to me means she knows she was guilty and she was scared because she couldn`t turn herself in. She probably didn`t know how to dispose of the body and that`s why she stayed there because she was still plotting what was next. She already tried to clean up. She tried up to air out the stink. She tried to hide the murder weapon.
I think she was plotting what to do next. I don`t think it`s indicative that she was disturbed. I think it`s -- she`s plotting how to get away with it.
GRACE: OK. Let`s go back to our defense attorneys, Penny Douglass Furr and Kirby Clements.
Penny, can you hear me?
PENNY DOUGLASS FURR, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes. I hear you.
GRACE: OK. So, Penny, she opens all the windows and sets the fans, multiple fans, to blow out the stench of the dead body decaying right there in the room with her. And then she goes and hides the murder weapon. Now where does the insanity fit in?
DOUGLASS FURR: Well, just because she doesn`t want to smell it for five days doesn`t mean she`s not insane. The issue is what was her state of mind at the time of the incident. And then she knows --
GRACE: So the insanity only goes from right here to right here, you know, completely excluding the nose, right?
DOUGLASS FURR: At the time of the incident --
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: So the nose is sane, but the head, the brain is insane. All right.
DOUGLASS FURR: At the time of the incident.
GRACE: Got it. All right. Complete insanity with the nasal exception. Go ahead.
DOUGLASS FURR: If it`s at the time of the incident if she was so mentally ill that she did not know the difference between right and wrong, and she could not appreciate her acts and that they were wrong, then she could be found to be mentally ill. But it has to rise to the level that she was so ill --
GRACE: Penny, Penny, Penny. Penny.
DOUGLASS FURR: Yes. Yes.
GRACE: She hid the murder weapons and there were plenty of them.
To Sheriff Craig Apple, how many murder weapons and what were the alleged murder weapons, Sheriff Apple?
SHERIFF CRAIG APPLE, ALBANY COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE: A claw hammer, a lengthy bread knife and two steak knifes.
GRACE: Sheriff Apple, how much damage can you do with a bread knife?
APPLE: Stabbed in the aorta substantial amount.
GRACE: Oh, Sheriff Apple, this must have been a horrible crime scene. Sheriff, I`ve been very curious as to what part of the apartment was the body found?
APPLE: The body was found on the floor of the one bedroom apartment in between two beds.
GRACE: Has there been any discussion of motive? Why was she so angry that she would do this, or is that the case, Sheriff, do we know?
APPLE: We don`t really know for sure. I mean we`ve been told by neighbors and by the deli owner that there`s been -- and by the family -- the brother and sister-in-law actually that there have been some small domestic disturbances, nothing that (INAUDIBLE) to the level of calling 911. But most of the skirmishes have been over her not paying bills and the lack of funds basically.
GRACE: With him suffering from cerebral palsy, Sheriff Apple, I assume he was getting some sort of a disability check?
APPLE: Actually he was not receiving any benefits whatsoever. There was no income coming in from special services, disability, anything whatsoever from state funds or county funds.
GRACE: So he was not getting any government support at all? Is that what you`re saying, Sheriff?
APPLE: That`s absolutely correct.
GRACE: Where -- what was their income?
APPLE: I don`t believe it was a lot. They were working at a small bed and breakfast down on Route 32 in Greenville. They were cleaning down there and that was really it. That was the only income that we could show.
GRACE: To Dr. Bill Manion, medical examiner joining us out of Philadelphia. A stab even with a bread knife to the aorta, what would the result be, Dr. Manion?
DR. BILL MANION, M.D., MEDICAL EXAMINER, BURLINGTON COUNTY, NJ: Well, the person would lose their blood pressure vey -- almost immediately striking the aorta and they would be unconscious within 30 seconds.
GRACE: Where is the aorta?
MANION: The aorta is the largest blood vessel coming off the heart and distributes blood to the rest of the body, head, chest, abdomen and all the extremities. The aorta is the main vessel that -- if the aorta is lacerated by a gunshot wound or a stab wound, the person`s blood pressure will drop immediately and they`ll be unconscious in 30 seconds.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The death of Gabriel Philby.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: After her son was found stabbed and bludgeoned to death in his bedroom of the apartment he shared with his mother.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Weapons in the garbage.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: How old is he?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He`s 21? Twenty-two, I`m sorry.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: OK. Is he breathing at all?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s not breathing, right? He`s dead, she said. She doesn`t want me to go up there.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Stabbed and bludgeoned to death in his bedroom of the apartment he shared with his mother. Tracey Zetsche covers her face with her hands, her wrists and her ankles shackled.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She doesn`t want me to go there, though. She says he`d definitely dead.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: OK. And what`s going on there?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think my nephew is dead.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: You don`t have an address?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, I can`t think of it. It`s P&L Deli. They live right upstairs.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: And why do you think that?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Because my sister-in-law is sitting outside, she doesn`t know what happened and she says there`s blood everywhere.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls. Straight out to Darcy in Florida. Hi, Darcy, what`s your question?
DARCY, CALLER FROM FLORIDA: Hi, yes. I read the article and I know by looking at the mother, without hesitance, thought in my mind, yes, she did do it. You can tell she did it with her eyes, the look of her face, yes, she did do it. And nobody else would have done that in her apartment. And she just went nuts and she stabbed him, you can tell by just looking at her.
GRACE: Now, Darcy, why do you say that, that you can tell by looking at her?
DARCY: OK. Looking at her, her face looks evil, her eyes look evil, and she looks -- she does not even have a kindness, anything in her face is not kind. She looks very mean and evil and without a shadow of a doubt, as soon as I read this article, I knew that the mom did it, you know, you can just tell by looking at her definitely.
GRACE: OK. Darcy, I want you on my jury, that`s just all I can say. But Darcy, why do you also say -- and I`m asking you these questions because you could represent what jurors think, so we`ve read all the police reports, we`ve read all the articles, we`ve interviewed everyone, we`re talking to Sheriff Apple, we`re asking him questions that may not be allowed to be asked at trial. We can ask him whatever -- we desire. That`s not true in a court of law.
So Darcy, I`m curious, why do you say she`s the only one that would have murdered him in that apartment?
DARCY: She`s the only one. She looks crazy and I honestly think there was nobody else, nobody else would have came in there. This guy was very, very innocent. And his mother, she probably had him for years and she just built and built, some -- maybe bitterness against him and she finally went nuts and she stabbed him. And it tells it in her face and in her eyes.
GRACE: To Sheriff Apple, Sheriff Craig Apple, the sheriff there in Albany County. Sheriff, again, thanks for being with us.
The mother had sole care of her son with cerebral palsy, but he was, quote, "fully functioning." He helped her do the cleaning. They were both employed cleaning that bed and breakfast. So what burden did she actually bear bringing up the son? There you see him standing, there he is at a ball game.
When you say he`s fully functioning, what do you mean by that, Sheriff?
APPLE: Well, he would go bowling, you know, he would use Twitter, he would use Facebook, he would be out and about, he`d go to the laundromat down the road. Everybody loved him. I mean nobody really knew that much about him, he`d only been in the area eight or nine months. But he was -- you know, they said he was a good kid, he`d give big hugs, always had a happy smile.
His only downside that nobody really knew about was he had cerebral palsy. And he had fought through it. He just had it as far as a visible characteristic, he had a deformed right arm. Other than that you would not have known.
GRACE: To Lawrence Carter Long, everyone, we all met Lawrence Long before he has ever appeared on our show as a frequent guest, as a poster boy for cerebral palsy.
Lawrence, when you hear the description of Gabriel, what comes to mind?
LAWRENCE CARTER-LONG, NATIONAL COUNCIL ON DISABILITY: Well, he`s 22 years old, right? When you say fully functioning when talking about a child with cerebral palsy, that basically means that he was probably able to do the same kinds of things that nondisabled children take for granted.
You know, here we are 22 years after the Americans with Disabilities Act was passed. We`ve got disabled athletes completing in the Olympics. The expectations for children with disabilities are much higher than they were even a decade ago. So we`ve got to wonder exactly what the stresses were, why this woman was in isolation, why didn`t this child get the supports and the services that he needed?
We`ve got to get it down to the deeper questions and find out exactly why this happened in isolation and what the greater problems --
GRACE: Well, you know, Lawrence --
CARTER-LONG: -- and hopefully what the solutions are.
GRACE: I got another question for you.
CARTER-LONG: Yes.
GRACE: You know, I was asking earlier, I was wondering who was bringing home the paycheck in that family. Was she depending on his government check, because he could probably have qualified for some sort of disability? And typically we applaud people who are not on welfare, who are not taking money from the government.
But you know what, Lawrence? I`m paying taxes. I pay a lot of taxes, and if they go to anybody, I want them to go to the disabled. I want him to get a check from the government to help him get the services and get what he needs, rather than to go to some fat cat in D.C. So I`m wondering why he wasn`t getting some type of treatment, some type of rehab, some type of services provided by our government?
CARTER-LONG: Right. It`s a very good question and I think it`s the thing that`s been left out of this discussion thus far, so I`m very glad you brought it up. The expectations are higher, you know, maybe the process for applying or to getting approved for disability benefits has become so difficult at this point that people give up, that they don`t even try. That`s something that we need to pursue further and find out answers to.
GRACE: You know what, Lawrence, when it`s just so difficult to jump out over one hurdle after the next after the next in life. Here`s this guy trying to help his mother cleaning for a living, and, you know, there`s nothing wrong with that. I have done it in restaurants before myself, putting myself through school. But what I`m saying is, he could probably have qualified for all sorts of services to help him to educate him, to help him better his living conditions, but he didn`t have any of that.
To John Lucich, former criminal investigator, president of Forensics. You know, I find it interesting that Darcy brought up nobody else would have killed him in that home. Why not an intruder? Do you think the defense may go there, John Lucich?
JOHN LUCICH, CRIMINAL INVESTIGATOR, PRESIDENT, E FORENSICS: The defense will go in a million different directions. The fact is this woman was biding time, cleaning up, destroying evidence, interfering with an investigation, doing everything possible, including not dialing 911, and 911 was only dialed when the aunt showed up. Let`s take a look at what happened with Laci down -- down in Florida. Nobody called 911 so the mom, right? I mean this is all pointing towards the mother. Could it come out of something else? Yes. But at least she`s got a big part in it. I think this is the woman who did this.
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think my nephew is dead.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: And why do you think that?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Because my sister-in-law is sitting outside. She doesn`t know what happened then she said there`s blood every where.
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GRACE: We are taking your calls. Back to Matt Zarrell. For those of you just joining us, apparently mom sleeps there with a dead body for five days before her sister ultimately calls 911.
Matt, explain to the viewers what happened.
MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE STAFFER, COVERING STORY: OK. So, police are alleging that mom beat her son, but before beating her son with a hammer, over 24 times, mom stabs her 22-year-old son with cerebral palsy in the heart over a dozen times with three different knives. Police later learned that she tried to allegedly cover up the crime scene by stashing the evidence, including the bloody murder weapons and the bloody bedding that she tried to clean up the house with in a trash area outside of the home.
Also in addition, we are learning more that mom says when she got -- when cops came to the house, mom says she doesn`t know what happened. She actually had cuts on her hands that police believe came from when the knife, which was covered in blood, slipped out of her hand and actually cut herself while she was trying to allegedly kill her son.
GRACE: Michael Board, you didn`t tell me anything about mom having cuts to her hands when that knife slipped or about trying to clean up with bloody bedding. What?
MICHAEL BOARD, REPORTER, WOAI NEWSRADIO: I did try to tell you that she tried to stash the sheets, she tried to make it seem like that. Who knows where the cuts came from. I don`t know if that`s really a big piece of evidence here. I cut my hands all the time when I`m cooking dinner. So who knows where those cuts came from.
GRACE: Well, not if the laceration match up to one of those knives.
Kelly Saindon, Kirby Clements, Penny Douglass Furr -- Kirby Clements, what about it, Kirby? That knife slips -- stabbed into her son`s body and she gets her DNA on the murder weapon. Then she tries to clean up the crime scene with the bedding, with the sheets.
CLEMENTS: You know what, Nancy --
GRACE: Not insane. She knew exactly what she was doing.
CLEMENTS: Well, no --
GRACE: And that DNA completely rules out the intruder theory.
CLEMENTS: Well, you know, DNA would rule out the intruder theory, but you`re mixing up insanity with the idea of someone not having a proper intellectual function. Those are two different things. You can be high function and insane. And so I`m suggesting to you that insanity still can stand.
GRACE: Penny?
DOUGLASS FURR: Yes, Nancy, it still goes to the time of the incident and what she was, not what it was after but what bothers me is she made no effort to flee.
GRACE: But Penny --
DOUGLASS FURR: She made no effort to leave.
GRACE: She was too busy cleaning up the crime scene, Penny.
DOUGLASS FURR: But why didn`t she leave? She could have walked away. Why would you stay there with a body for five or six days? That`s what really bothers me, that she sat there for days. If she had -- if she fled, then I think that would definitely rule out any kind of insanity plea.
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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We were told him and his mother were very close.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Knifes I and a hammer were used.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sitting out on the steps.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Just sitting and rocking the entire time.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The scene was bloody.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She doesn`t remember anything.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A lot of concealment issue, finding some weapons in the garbage, with bedding and clothing.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She doesn`t want me to go up there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls. I want to go back to Brian Fitzgerald, crime reporter with the "Albany Times Union." Has the mom made any type of admission?
BRIAN FITZGERALD, CRIME REPORTER, ALBANY TIMES UNION: Well, we were told that after her arraignment, about 24 hours after she was originally questioned about the crime, that she may have went up to an investigator and made some sort of incriminating statement. We are not sure what it was but she may have said something to sheriff`s deputies that may have incriminated herself. We don`t know exactly what it was.
GRACE: Everyone, tip line, 518-765-2351.
Let`s stop and remember Marine Corporal Christian Guzman Rivera, 21, Homestead, Florida, killed, Afghanistan, Purple Heart, Combat Action Ribbon. Navy and Marine Corps Commendation medals. Named an honorary Miami-Dade firefighter. Loved the gym, collecting Michael Jordan sneakers. Leaves behind parents Velma and Felix, brother, Jonathan, sisters, Melissa and Alicia.
Christian Guzman Rivera, American hero. Just 21.
Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us. And happy 100th to Pennsylvania friend, Mary Temeke (ph). Five grands, eight greats, two great greats, love to cook and bake.
Happy birthday, Mary.
Dr. Drew up next.
Everyone, I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.
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