Return to Transcripts main page
Nancy Grace
Did Doctor Poison His Wife`s Coffee?; Human Remains Found
Aired August 08, 2012 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, live, Lookout Mountain, Tennessee. Lots of working moms would love their husband to bring them a cup of coffee, but not pharmacist and mom of two Lisa Hill. For months, she suffers from extreme pain, cramps, nausea and more, even having surgery to try and get well, but she never did.
Bombshell tonight. One morning by coincidence, Lisa spots her husband, her husband of 14 years, a well-known doctor, slipping something into her coffee. Quick thinking, she fakes him off and has the coffee tested. In it, heavy metal concentrate barium -- no taste, no smell, no color, used for medical testing, PET scans, CAT scans, rat poison. In the right dosage, it`s deadly.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She`s been severely sick for months.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I experienced severe health issues.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Lisa Hill says she saw her husband put something mysterious in her mug.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She observed something that made her incredibly suspicious.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She says her husband, a local physician, Dr. Hal Hill, poisoned her morning coffee.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Lisa Hill says she was being treated by her doctor husband, who she now believes was poisoning her.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Found my husband putting an unidentified substance in my morning coffee.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Investigators secretly took samples of the coffee.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The unthinkable unfolded.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Very unusual.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was shocking.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Extreme levels of the uncommon toxic heavy metal barium.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A toxic heavy metal that`s poisonous and causes flu-like symptoms.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Based upon these test results, my earlier fears of harm to me have been confirmed.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was actually possible that her husband was trying to do her great harm.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.
Bombshell tonight. Live to Lookout Mountain, Tennessee. Lots of working moms would love their husband to bring them a cup of coffee, but not pharmacist, mother of two, Lisa Hill. One morning by coincidence, she spots her husband of 14 years, a well-known doctor, slipping something into her coffee.
Well, right now, she has obtained a protective order against that husband. There has been no arrest. As a matter of fact, if you look at her husband`s record -- he is a well-known infectious disease doctor there in Lookout Mountain-Chattanooga area -- it is pristine, not a single arrest, not running a stop sign, a red light, nothing, nothing on his medical record, as well, no claims of malpractice, not a thing. The two have two beautiful children together, ages 11 and 12.
We are taking your calls. I want to go first to Chattanooga reporter Kate Harrison, joining us from "The Times Free Press." All of this blew wide open when she sought a protective order. What happened, Kate?
KATE HARRISON, "TIMES FREE PRESS" (via telephone): Well, what`s happened here is that it`s something that kind of seems like it`s straight out of a crime drama, Nancy -- very respected doctor, as you`re saying, has been accused by his wife of poisoning her for some time after he was actually very involved in her treatment for her long illness.
GRACE: So you`re saying, Kate Harrison, that he was involved in her treatment. From what I can see on the records -- and I`ve got the protective order with me, temporary order of protection right here. From what I can understand, isn`t it true she actually sought surgery?
HARRISON: Yes. Yes. She had extensive medical treatment, including surgery.
GRACE: Kate Harrison joining us, everyone, Kate with "The Times Free Press" there in Chattanooga. Kate, it`s my understanding she went through extreme pain, cramps, nausea, vomiting, excruciating cramps. And it turns out that at that time, in her coffee was barium. It is a powdered concentrate. And to my research, it only requires about 7 micrograms in a one-milliliter dosage to be too much.
What do you know, Kate?
HARRISON: Well, all we know at this point is that there was barium in the coffee sample. And we also know that Dr. Hill was seen by his wife, she says, putting a substance in the coffee. It`s still not clear if the substance that he put in there was, in fact, the barium. But the judge seemed to think that there was enough grounds to her accusations that he -- that she approved the order of protection for her and her children.
GRACE: Everyone, breaking right now, Dr. Hal Hill, a very respected physician -- he was an expert in infectious diseases there in the Lookout Mountain-Chattanooga, Tennessee, area. Now he`s out of the home. Why? His wife has filed -- a practicing pharmacist -- has filed for a protective order to protect herself and her two children after she says she catches him slipping something in her morning coffee.
He always brought her the coffee. But this time, it wasn`t creamer, it wasn`t sugar, it wasn`t Splenda. Some people believe it was barium. Barium is the concentrate found in matches and rat poisoning, also found in medical supplies, the stuff you drink when you take a CAT scan or a PET scan.
We are taking your calls. I want to go now to Nicole Partin, investigative reporter. Nicole, what more can you tell us?
NICOLE PARTIN, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER (via telephone): A quiet upscale community is shocked, Nancy, and members of the medical profession here in the Chattanooga area are alarmed at these allegations of an apparent attempt to poison his wife.
She catches him in the act, pouring the poison in the coffee. She calls the local authorities. They come to the home. They take the coffee to the lab. And it`s after those lab results return, the police advise her, This is so serious, seek a protective order.
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers. Joining us, Jennifer Smetters, Chicago, Greg McKeithen, formerly known as "law and order" before he became a defense attorney, out of Atlanta, Holly Hughes, former prosecutor turned defense attorney in Atlanta.
Here`s the problem, the state wants to prove this case. Number one, there`s no police report. He has not been charged. Here`s the problem as I see it, Greg McKeithen, is that she`s a pharmacist. It could be argued that -- Dan Abrams tried to pull it on me this morning on "GMA" -- that she put the barium in her own coffee. Why? I don`t know. I guess some crazy variation of Munchhausen disease.
But she is a pharmacist. Now -- now, Greg, you got to have -- you got to be in a nuclear pharmacy, as they call it, that carries items like this. Not everybody carries barium concentrate to be used. It`s got to be a particular type of pharmacy.
So she`s a pharmacist. He`s a doctor. She says she sees him put it in her drink, but can that be proved, Greg?
GREG MCKEITHEN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: At this point, I would say no. The evidence is inconclusive, Nancy, and based on what we know, we cannot convict a doctor based on on mere speculation and innuendo. More proof is required. Moreover, she would have possibly had access to it just as quick as he could have.
GRACE: Yes, the access problem, Holly Hughes, is going to be a difficult -- a difficulty for police if they want to pursue this any further. However, think about this, Holly. Think about it. Were there nannycams in the home that were trained in the kitchen?
She had been suffering, Holly, for a long time, even seeking out surgery. And coincidentally, when she stopped drinking the coffee, her illness went away. So I would say that would be convincing to a jury, but they still have the access problem. Could she have poisoned herself?
But Holly, would she go so far to go through that extreme pain to the point of surgery by poisoning herself?
HOLLY HUGHES, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It`s absolutely possible, Nancy.
GRACE: Possible?
HUGHES: And what gives me even greater concern -- no, listen. What gives me greater concern is she`s been sick all these months. In March, she discovers him, she says, putting something in her coffee. She doesn`t file a protective order until the end of July or move out? If I wake up and see my husband what I think is poisoning me that morning in March and I`m scared for myself and my children...
GRACE: Put her up, please!
HUGHES: ... we`re out of the house that day, Nancy!
GRACE: Holly, Holly, Holly...
HUGHES: If you know somebody was poisoning you...
GRACE: Think! Think!
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: ... ever think there was a sting going on, a set-up, Jennifer Smetters? Because Holly`s right. If you think your husband is poisoning you, you kick him out, you go to police that minute, unless -- unless you`re trying to catch him, Jennifer.
HUGHES: But Nancy, I`m sorry to...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Your name is not Jennifer!
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Go, Jennifer!
HUGHES: Right, but then he would have been arrested if there was a video of him!
JENNIFER SMETTERS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: There is a point in time in which -- and this intelligent woman made a choice. Her choice was to contact the police back in May and allow the coffee to be tested and keep her guard up this entire time. I`m not going to try and blame the victim here, if, in fact, she is a definite victim.
And also, we don`t know what`s going on in that home. We don`t know what kind of threat and fear she may be under. She has children that she`s watching out for, too.
And he may have money and connections that we don`t know. We don`t know who he`s seeing (ph). We don`t know his motivations for doing this, if, in fact, he did it. We don`t know his records at the hospital and his doctor`s office. The police need to investigate. And the fact that the police told her to go and get that temporary order of protection, which may turn into a plenary next week at a hearing, says volumes. They`re doing an investigation...
GRACE: Well, we reached out, Jennifer...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: We repeatedly reached out to Dr. Hill. We did not get a comment back from him.
But here`s another thing. To Dr. William Morrone, medical examiner, forensic pathologist, and more importantly today, toxicologist, joining me out of Madison Heights. Dr. Morrone, when -- and I`m not sure about this because it`s been a long time since I sent cocaine to the crime lab to be tested. But when drug tests are run on a substance that`s, say, taken from a crime scene, be it, you know, meth, it could be cocaine, it could be heroin, it could be a number of things -- I don`t think that the crime labs routinely test for barium.
And that may be why it took so long to get this test back, Dr. Morrone.
DR. WILLIAM MORRONE, MEDICAL EXAMINER, TOXICOLOGIST: That`s exactly right. It`s a heavy metal. You only suspect heavy metal poisoning when you have something from the environment. Generally speaking, barium, strontium, mercury -- they all go under the wire. But this is really, really a -- it just doesn`t occur naturally.
GRACE: Well, what would it do, Dr. Morrone? What would -- Dr. Morrone, what would it do? I mean, this woman had had surgery. Now, look, I`m all about Munchhausen, Munchhausen by proxy, like when mothers make their children sick so they, the mothers, can get attention from doctors and medical tests (ph). I get it.
But to go to such extremes, to make yourself so brutally, excessively sick -- I mean, pain, where you`re in a fetal position on the floor by the commode, you`re -- you`re -- you`re torn in half by pain, you have surgery -- I find that very difficult to believe she would ingest it voluntarily, Dr. Morrone.
MORRONE: It would cause stomach pains, tremendous muscular aches. And if you were dosing yourself, you`d know how bad it is after the first couple times and you`d question whether you want to do it again. But if you don`t know where it`s coming from, it`s like a really bad flu, a super- flu, and you think you can get over it, but you can`t.
GRACE: Well, it was so bad, the pain was so bad, she sought surgery.
Let`s see those symptoms again. There`s fatigue, there`s faintness, there`s nausea. But bottom -- paralysis. But bottom line, you have an irregular heartbeat and you die of cardiac arrest. That`s what barium will do to you.
Ellie Jostad, what more do we know? And to you, Dana, in the New York control room, could you show me that castle they`re living in, please?
ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, Nancy, we know that right now, there is no criminal charge been filed against Dr. Hill or anybody else at this point.
But we do know that yesterday, investigators were seen at that house for over two hours, late into the evening, removing items, potential evidence. They were taking in and out backpacks, envelopes, packages. So -- and they also seemed to be focused on photographing the interior of a car that was parked there in the driveway. So there is an investigation going on right now.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: An unidentified substance in my morning coffee.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A toxic heavy metal called barium.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There is no rush. The authorities want to make sure...
GRACE: Dan, if I tried to poison you and that cup of coffee you`ve got sitting in front of you -- I`m only guessing -- I guarantee you, you would not want me stalking around the studio, all right? So while it`s easy for you to sit back in an easy chair and say there`s no rush, she says she is in intense fear!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: You are seeing ABC`s "Good Morning America" just a couple hours ago, when I was duking it out with my sparring partner, Dan Abrams, who says, Hey, there`s no rush here.
Well, according to this woman, she believes her husband intentionally poisoned her with a heavy metal substance -- no taste, no color, no smell - - barium in her morning coffee. How surprised would a lot of women be in this country if their husband very sweetly brought them coffee in the morning? Hey, they`d love it!
But not this working mother of two. Here`s the kicker, though. Barium is found in items such as the solution you drink to have a CAT scan or a PET scan or various medical tests. That`s doctor-related. He`s a doctor. But she`s a pharmacist.
I want to talk to Holly Hughes very quickly. Let`s see the lawyers again. Joining me out of Atlanta, Holly Hughes, Greg McKeithen, out of Chicago, Jennifer Smetters.
Holly Hughes, you, as you talked so rudely over Jennifer Smetters earlier, tried to make a point that, Hey, why didn`t she call the doctors immediately? Why didn`t she call police immediately?
The reason she did not call police immediately is she didn`t know why she was getting sick. She was sick for months and months and months, balled up on the bathroom floor in intense pain, vomiting, faint.
The reality is, is when you look at a dead body, barium is not an ingredient, it`s not an element that you typically search for. You might look for drugs, or you know, maybe some other type of poison, but not barium. She could have died of cardiac arrest, no one would have ever checked her body for barium. She didn`t call cops because she didn`t know there was a crime going on until she saw her husband slip something in her coffee, according to her. And she...
(CROSSTALK)
HUGHES: Right, but she didn`t move out. She had all these suspicions and she was so nervous and so afraid. She did call the cops in March. You`re 100 percent right. She didn`t file for the protective order until the end of July or move her and her children out of that house. Now, somebody said...
GRACE: And you know why?
HUGHES: ... Well, maybe...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Because she didn`t know her husband was doing anything wrong.
HUGHES: But if there is a chance, Nancy -- you`ve got twins. We know all about the twins. You love them more than life itself. If there was a chance somebody was poisoning you or the food in your house and the twins were at risk, you would not be waiting for test results. You would pack those children up and get the heck out that day, and you know it.
And then the whole idea that, well, maybe they installed a nannycam and she made an intellectual decision to stay there and be part of the sting -- that would hold water if there had been an arrest because if they had had him on nannycam or video, they would have arrested him and the stay-away (ph) would have been part of the bond order. She would not have...
GRACE: So Holly...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Holly, I`m not arguing with you!
HUGHES: ... for CPO.
GRACE: Enjoy this moment. I`m not arguing with you. That`s a very valid argument. But the reality -- if she believed he was trying to do her in. But the reality is, now we know there was barium in the coffee. Up until then, she didn`t know.
But that does raise a question, Ellie. If she perceived there was a chance that he was trying to kill her, why did she stay in the home? And more important, Ellie, why would she have the children in the home? That`s a very valid argument that Holly Hughes is making.
JOSTAD: You`re right, Nancy, and her attorney -- this is Lisa Hill`s attorney -- says that she did have suspicions, but she didn`t have any of those confirmed until she got those tests back. And she says, actually, no one was as surprised as Lisa Hill that there actually was poison in the coffee. She thought...
GRACE: OK, hold on. Ellie...
JOSTAD: ... that she was being paranoid.
GRACE: ... Ellie...
JOSTAD: Yes?
GRACE: Ellie, just quick yes, no. You know what cross-exam is. I don`t see Ellie. Let me see Ellie. All right, number one, Ellie, do we know of another woman? Yes, no?
JOSTAD: No.
GRACE: Do we know of an insurance policy? Yes, no?
JOSTAD: No.
GRACE: Do we know of money as a motivator, yes, no?
JOSTAD: No.
GRACE: Of course, we all know the state does not have to prove motive. But believe you me, Ellie Jostad, a jury will be looking for a motive. Right now, we don`t have one!
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... wife and mother of two...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I am in immediate and present fear.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She noticed her husband slipping something into her coffee.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He usually prepared my morning coffee for me.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Inside this Lookout Mountain home.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I experienced severe health issues.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It seems like it`s right out of a book.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Heavy metal poisoning.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A doctor has been accused of trying to kill his wife...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back. We are taking your calls. Out to Tressa in Texas. Hi, Tressa. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I`m one of your biggest fans in the Killeen-Fort Hood area. And I just...
GRACE: Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You`re welcome -- a couple of comments that I wanted to make.
GRACE: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Although listening to the story, it sounds like the doctor could have done this. But at the same time, there might need to be a psychological evaluation of the victim to see -- because we don`t see a motive. Maybe she has some underlying mental problems where she did do this to draw attention. You know, sometimes people do this. They want attention, and they will go to deathly extremes to get it. So maybe this is one of those cases.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She`s been severely sick for months.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I experienced severe health issues.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Lisa Hill says she saw her husband put something mysterious in her mug.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She observed something that made her incredibly suspicious.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Says her husband, a local physician, Dr. Hal Hill, poisoned her morning coffee.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Lisa Hill says she was being treated by her doctor husband, who she now believes was poisoning her.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I found my husband putting an unidentified substance in my morning coffee.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Investigators secretly took samples of the coffee.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The unthinkable unfolded.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Very unusual.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was shocking.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Extreme levels of the uncommon toxic heavy metal barium.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A toxic heavy metal that`s poisonous and causes flu-like symptoms.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Based upon these test results, my earlier fears of harm to me have been confirmed.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was actually possible that her husband was trying to do her great harm.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls, we are live in the Chattanooga- lookout mountain area there in Tennessee.
A well-known physician now under suspicion. He has not been arrested. There is not a police report against him, there is, however, a protective order. His wife saw that order after it was discovered she had been poisoned with a heavy metal concentrate called barium. Barium is found in things like rat poison, in matches, in fireworks, but here`s the kicker. He is a well-known doctor. He specializes in infectious diseases.
Barium also very easily obtained in the liquid that you drink when you -- the powder concentrate that becomes the liquid when you have a CAT scan, when you have a PET scan, when you have a host of medical tests done. He`s a doctor. He has access to barium.
Kicker, she`s a pharmacist. She has access to barium.
Right now all we know of is her word saying she saw him slip barium into her coffee. She had it tested, by the way, and it turned out positive, in a deadly amount.
Barium causes extreme pain, nausea, cramps that cut you in half with pain, vomiting, faintness, kidney problems, but the big one, cardiac arrhythmia, abnormal heartbeat that results in cardiac arrest and death.
And isn`t it true, Dr. Morrone, that if she had died of a heart attack, it would just be chalked up as a heart attack? I doubt that the doctors at the morgue if there was even an autopsy would test for barium.
DR. WILLIAM R. MORRONE, MEDICAL EXAMINER; FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST, TOXICOLOGIST: The standard autopsy when you suspect an arrhythmia would not run any other tests and barium would be completely transparent. Nobody would know it`s there and arrhythmia is a very commonly used as the cause of death.
GRACE: And Dr. Morrone, a practicing doctor, especially one in infectious diseases, would know, would know what you just told our viewers, right? That upon autopsy, if there even was an autopsy, it`ll probably be chalked up to natural causes, causes you a heart attack, boom, drop dead, at apparently young age.
MORRONE: Absolutely.
GRACE: Even if they did an autopsy, they would not check for barium poisoning, would they?
MORRONE: They would have to have suspicion if they`re exposed to a poison or they`re exposed to something in the environment like it`s involved in their job. You would never look for this in a routine analysis.
GRACE: And another practicing doctor would know that, yes, no, Dr. Morrone?
MORRONE: Absolutely yes.
GRACE: Caryn Stark, psychologist, joining us out of New York -- is Teresa still with me, Dana?
Teresa, rephrase your question for Dr. Stark, please?
TERESA, CALLER FROM TEXAS: Well, what I was wondering if she had had any type of psychological problems in the past or if they`re going to do a psychological evaluation because sometimes people do drastic measures, take drastic measures to get attention, and if there`s no motive, an extramarital affair, insurance, anything to gain, maybe it`s just attention or maybe -- and I never, ever want to blame the victim, but sometimes we have to look that direction.
GRACE: Well, Caryn Stark, I don`t know of any follow up with Teresa`s train of through. Hey, look, it`s something you have to look at before you take this case to trial if you ever do.
But Caryn Stark, you and I talked about Munchhausen and Munchhausen by proxy very quite often. But it`s on and off camera. And typically we deal with it when there`s a sick child and we find out the mother typically has been poisoning the child or making the child sick in some way so that she, the mother, gets attention.
But Caryn, have you ever seen such an extreme case, as this would be if she were poisoning herself? I have not.
CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: I haven`t either, and I think it would be really important to check it. However, Nancy, it`s so unusual for someone to do something like this where they could possibly kill themselves and to inflict real pain. The thing about Munchhausen is that they are making up the symptoms to get the attention and get the medical treatment. They are not feeling real pain. And this woman was doing something, if she was doing it herself, which I doubt, where she could have killed herself. And I find that very, very hard to believe.
GRACE: And another thing, Caryn Stark, is if -- let`s follow through the thought. Let`s make the next logical step. If this was Munchhausen, if she`s trying to bring attention to herself, wouldn`t she be doing that through the illness? Why then try to frame her husband? I don`t believe that`s part of Munchhausen.
STARK: Yes, that`s the part with Munchhausen that really doesn`t fit the definition. And you wonder if she`s trying to frame her husband, would she, again, go so far as to inflict this kind of pain on herself and to possibly death?
GRACE: And under the surgery, Caryn Stark.
STARK: That`s right. She had surgery and she had the symptoms that were very real because there really was barium there. So what an extreme way to try to frame somebody, and you would need another motive.
GRACE: Yes. I`m not buying it. I`m with you, Caryn Stark, I`m not buying it.
Out to the lines, let`s go to Betty. Hi, Betty, what`s your question?
BETTY, CALLER: Yes, I was just wondering, because like that one lady said about the psycho evaluation, why would a -- why would a mother, a loving mother of her children want to harm herself to kill herself? I just don`t understand that. That doesn`t make any sense.
GRACE: OK. You`re going to think this is crazy, Betty, but I just had knee surgery, and I almost didn`t have it, because you hear of -- they`re rare, cases where somebody goes in for a simple procedure and then they never wake up, they never come back. I actually saw of that. Is it worth the knee pain to risk not -- the children not having a mother?
BETTY: That`s right.
GRACE: And of course I`m not a perfect mother, but there`s only one mother and I actually thought of not having the surgery. So bottom line, Betty, your question is, would she go through all this as a loving mother, right?
BETTY: That`s right.
GRACE: OK. What about it, Steve Moore, you`re a former fed with the FBI, you`re the special investigator, could you imagine a mother in all of your time observing, investigating homicide cases, going through all of this and actually putting her children at risk of losing their mother?
STEVE MOORE, FORMER FED WITH FBI: Nancy, we used to say if you expect a person to act logical in something, in a situation like this, you`re looking the wrong direction. If she is crazy enough, hypothetically, to put --
GRACE: Wait, wait, wait.
MOORE: To put barium in her coffee.
GRACE: Steve, Steve, Steve.
MOORE: Yes.
GRACE: Nobody has said anything about this lady -- why are we talking about this lady possibly being crazy? How did we get off on that tangent? She`s the one that`s been suffering, she`s the one that had to undergo surgery, she`s the one that called police, for Pete`s sake, if she was trying to do something wrong, why did she call police?
MOORE: Well, you have to look at that because as you yourself said, before you go to trial, you have to run that possibility right to the ground so that the defense attorneys, if it`s the doctor, have nothing to go on. So, yes, you have to look at the possibility, you have to see, is she crazy enough to do that? The answer will be very easy to find out.
The problem is, she can -- she might have access to barium, he might have access to barium. The whole thing is going to come down to motive.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: We are interrupting the story regarding the alleged poisoning going down in Chattanooga-Lookout Mountain area. We are hearing that the search for a 21-year-old coed, a young girl, has come to an end. We`re talking of course about 21-year-old Mickey. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: After nearly 12 hours of processing the scene, a coroner van left Evangeline Parish with the body police believe is Mickey.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We do feel strongly, though, that this is Mickey Shunick. But we just can`t say for 100 percent that it is in fact her.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The body was found behind a small family cemetery in a wooded area and in a grave all its own.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We`re going out now for breaking news. As you will recall, we first brought you this story, of a young girl, a 21-year-old last seen in a Taco Bell drive through. She drove her bike home that evening, it was a gold and black Schwinn. She was never seen again. Her bike was found discarded, thrown underneath a bridge there in a local parish. Now human remains have been found in a remote cemetery, an overgrown graveyard.
Are they the remains of 20-year-old girl Mickey Shunick?
Joining me right now, out of Lafayette, from "The Advertiser" newspaper is Amanda Calfresh -- McElfresh.
Amanda, thank you for being with us. What do we know -- isn`t it true, Amanda, that the family, Mickey`s family supplied dental records? Can`t they make an I.D. off that? What are we waiting on?
AMANDA MCELFRESH, REPORTER, THE ADVERTISER NEWSPAPER: We are waiting for the final forensic testing and the processing to take place. The body is now with the Lafayette Parish Coroner`s Office. We are hoping to receive a positive identification sometime in 24 to 48 hours.
GRACE: You are seeing the search now out in a remote area, remote, yet local, an overgrown graveyard, a cemetery, is the location of the discovery of human remains. To our understanding, sorely decomposed.
Joining me right now out of Lafayette is Corporal Paul Mouton, PIO of the Lafayette Police Department.
Sir, thank you for being with us.
CPL. PAUL MOUTON, PUBLIC INFORMATION OFFICER, LAFAYETTE POLICE DEPT.: Thank you for having me.
GRACE: Sir, what do we know about the remains? How were they discovered in this remote graveyard?
MOUTON: Well, we`re releasing right now, Nancy, obviously the objective of this case was first, you know, most importantly to bring Mickey home, but secondly, you know, prosecution of the perpetrator in this particular case, and so we received some credible information that was very specific as to where we could locate the body, and we verified that yesterday when we went out to the site and that`s when we began processing the scene and being very meticulous in the removal of dirt, obviously, and with that becomes the collection of evidence and then finally removing the body and transporting it from the scene.
GRACE: Corporal, according to my sources, I`m not sure this is true, but isn`t it true that the prime suspect was checked out of the jail yesterday for a period of hours leading up to my question, Corporal, did he lead you to the body?
MOUTON: Well, you`re correct in that a member of the Lafayette Parish Sheriff`s Office who was on the task force for the Mickey Shunick case, along with one of our officers, did check out -- we are not divulging that information, obviously, with the advice of our district attorney`s office, including what was the nature of that removing him from incarceration for that time.
And so right now we`re just -- we`re holding on to that information until such time that we`re able to release it.
GRACE: Well, Corporal, I really respect that. You didn`t dodge the question, but you didn`t give me the full answer either. That could play an integral part in the prosecution of this case. Did the suspect himself lead police to the remains of this young girl, Mickey Shunick. Her life before her, last seen driving home on a black and gold Schwinn, from a Taco Bell drive-thru.
With us, special guest, Corporal Paul Mouton out of the Lafayette Police Department.
Corporal, again, thank you for being with us. Corporal, I know, I don`t know if you`re going to admit it to me or not, but I know this must be extremely upsetting to the police force, because not only did you guys put your heart and soul working 24/7 trying to find Mickey, but this guy, I`m just going to put it out there, this perp, Brandon Lavergne, he`s already a registered sex offender, level three, for climbing into some woman`s window, tying her up and forcing her to perform deviant sex acts.
All right, number one. But number two, isn`t it true that he is also under suspicion of the murder and the sex assault on the mother of, I believe, three?
MOUTON: That is correct. We are -- you know, we`re very direct in how we handled this investigation, but it had been very frustrating all along in working with the Shunick family who had been very patient with us.
You know, our main objective is to make sure that he doesn`t get out of jail. And you are correct, they are looking at another case in a neighboring parish, in Arcadia Parish, and regarding their homicide and so we`re in hopes of, you know, putting him away with both of these cases. But, again, you know, we have to build that case and provide that information for the tools for the DA to perform their job and that`s what we`re trying to do now.
GRACE: Hey, Corporal, in that last case, I believe it was Lisa Pate, body discovered in 1999. Isn`t it true that she had three children and the youngest of them was a little girl that had to be put up for adoption because the family couldn`t take care of all the children?
MOUTON: I`m not 100 percent sure on that information. I know she did have children that she did leave behind as a result of her death. But the specifics of her family, I do not have that information.
GRACE: With me is special guest, PIO of the Lafayette Police Department, Corporal Paul Mouton. He is taking your calls on what we think maybe the discovery of the body of a young girl, Mickey Shunick, absolutely gorgeous. Last seen riding her bike.
And this investigation is leading cops to possibly solve another homicide of a mother leaving behind three children. One of those little children, a little girl, I believe she was about 3, had to be put up for adoption after the murder of her mother.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Breaking news right now. We are cutting into the poisoning story out of Chattanooga-Lookout Mountain, Tennessee.
Has the search for Mickey Shunick come to an end in an overgrown and remote graveyard? Human remains have been found. Mickey`s family has supplied dental records.
And isn`t it true, very quickly, Dr. Morrone, a positive I.D. can easily be made through dental records?
MORRONE: Absolutely. Because of fillings, bone structure in the jaw, and the silhouettes and shadows of the teeth. It`s a perfect match and very few people would ever -- not even family members don`t look the same.
GRACE: To Alexis Tereszcuk, senior reporter, Radaronline.com. Alexis, what more do we know?
ALEXIS TERESZCUK, REPORTER, RADAROLINE.COM: Well, one of the scariest things about this case, Nancy, is that prosecutors in court filings have said that the perpetrator actually tried to hide the body. They believe that he may have moved it in order to throw them off the investigation. So he was very devious in trying to make sure the police didn`t connect him and didn`t find this girl`s body that her family was searching for so desperately.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Has the body of 21-year-old coed Mickey Shunick been found? With me, in addition of Amanda McElfresh out of "Advertiser" newspaper, Lafayette, Alexis Tereszcuk and Ellie Jostad.
What more do we know, Ellie?
ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE CHIEF EDITORIAL PRODUCER: Well, Nancy, the prosecutors have said that they are going to seek the death penalty against the suspect here for both -- both the murders of Mickey Shunick and for Miss Pate. They say that both murders were committed in the course of a rape or a sex assault, kidnapping and that both murders were heinous, atrocious and cruel.
GRACE: And you know, Alexis Tereszcuk, I was talking to Corporal Mouton out of Lafayette about how upsetting it must be to find out he is very likely the killer of another woman. And I was connected by Stacy here in the studio. The little girl wasn`t 3, she`s just a couple of weeks old when she was put up for adoption, which is just horrible. But not that they had to put her up for adoption, that he robbed her of her mother.
But Alexis, another thing that slipped through the cracks was there was apparently a domestic assault by this guy, Brandon Laverne, way back when, and nothing was ever done about it.
TERESZCUK: This guy has been so sneaky and he has been able to get through the court system so many times, and in fact, in 2008 while he was still in prison a grand jury was convened about Miss Pate`s murder and they just let it go. So he was free for the last four years until they finally arrested him for murdering Mickey.
GRACE: Why didn`t the grand jury return a true bill?
TERESZCUK: They just said they -- they just let it go. There was no reason, it was just a dismissal of it.
GRACE: Oh! Back to you, Corporal Mouton, did they -- the grand jury give a no-bill or did they not pass at all on that, Corporal?
MOUTON: I`m not familiar with that case. That`s in a separate parish, actually, Nancy. So I mean that would have to come to those authorities.
GRACE: Man. You know, Corporal, you`ve been to this scene, right, this overgrown graveyard? Right?
MOUTON: That`s correct.
GRACE: How far away was it from where Mickey went missing?
MOUTON: Oh, we`re talking probably it`s a 45 to a 50-minute drive. You have to head north off of I-10 which is west of Lafayette where she went missing from so it`s an area where someone would have to know where this location is in order to find them.
GRACE: Corporal, our prayers have been with you and the whole team at your department. And although it`s not the outcome we wanted, I pray that this is an end to what the parents have been suffering.
Let`s stop and remember Marine Lance Corporal Kevin Preach, 21, (INAUDIBLE), Mass, killed Afghanistan. Purple Heart, loved football, video games, leaves behind mother Lori, brother Daniel, also serving Marines, sister Michelle and Kristen, girlfriend Brianna.
Kevin Preach, American hero.
Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us. Dr. Drew up next, everyone. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.
END
