Return to Transcripts main page
Dr. Drew
Sex and Relationships Wednesday
Aired August 15, 2012 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: It`s Wednesday, so we are talking sex and relationships.
First, millionaire matchmaker Patti Stanger on what you might be doing right now that`s wrecking your relationship.
Later, public break-ups, we watch them, talk about them, maybe even relate to them.
Chad and Evelyn are the latest. Usher is in an ugly battle with her ex. Kim Kardashian and Kris Humphries are in court. The list goes on and on.
But what`s it like for people in the media spotlight and what can we learn from them?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: And that later, but of course, we`re taking your calls the entire hour, at 855-373-7395.
And first up, Patti Stanger, a love and relationship expert, and founder of PattiKnows.com.
All right. Let`s go to it, Patti. I want to spring off a relationship piece in "Glamour" magazine this month about using sex to get what you want from your partner. You`re already looking incredulous.
Is it ever OK to use sex as a weapon?
PATTI STANGER, MILLIONAIRE MATCHMAKER: Not always, but men have been doing it for years.
PINSKY: Men have been doing it?
STANGER: Yes.
PINSKY: Men have been using sex as a weapon?
STANGER: Let me tell you something -- there`s plenty of men out there that do the flip side of the other side. Men -- there are women out there who have high testosterone and go after these men and they do the takeaway. Plenty of men are not doing sex right now and doing the takeaway. I experienced it in my last relationship.
PINSKY: Men -- slow down, Patti. Men are withholding sex from women?
STANGER: Yes, to get them to do things they want to do. And I know this sounds unusual, but I get calls like this all the time. The girl is like, you know, withholding -- we had a caller last week where she said the men aren`t giving into this as well.
PINSKY: I think we even have a caller right now. It`s Cheryl in Iowa. Sheryl, do you have something similar to this going on?
SHERYL, CALLER FROM IOWA: Oh, I have had. Nice to talk to you, Dr. Drew, and Patti.
I had an ex-husband who used to withhold affections if I didn`t do exactly what he wanted me to do.
PINSKY: What kinds of things was he asking you to do? This is going to be good.
SHERYL: Well, it was usually stupid things. I always had everything done. I had my house spotless, I had his clothes ironed, I had his meal on the table. And it was always stupid little things that I guess was extremely important to him like cleaning out a car or something that didn`t seem like it was very important at the time.
PINSKY: And, Sheryl and Patti, you know, when you hear a woman describe this, you begin to see how abusive, in fact, this kind of --
STANGER: This becomes abuse. It`s control. It`s all about control.
PINSKY: Now, I got to tell you, though, I`ve heard -- I on "Loveline" and on this show heard millions of calls from men about women withholding. And people don`t usually think about that as abusive.
STANGER: What they do is they get you to the table, they tease you, wet your appetite, give you lots of romance and then they pull the card away. You`re like whoa, whoa, whoa, who changed the game.
I experienced that recently. And I was like -- not the boyfriend I have now, my previous boyfriend.
PINSKY: This is the second or third time you brought it up. Was it bad?
STANGER: It was bad. It hit home with myself worth. I went to my therapist and I talked to my friends, I realized I was in abusive relationship and I had to get out of it.
PINSKY: That`s been my experience. Women are deeply wounded when men withhold, because that`s not supposed to happen.
STANGER: It`s never supposed to happen, but I hear it all the time from my client, and I have to do interventions on the men and go, what`s really going on here?
It`s a psychological control issue. It has nothing to do with testosterone.
PINSKY: Sheryl`s husband is asking her to go clean his car.
Sheryl, are you out of that relationship now or still in it?
SHERYL: Oh, yes. I`m out of it. I`ve been divorced because of -- you know, in fact, prior relationships, I`m in my fifth marriage and finally a good one.
STANGER: Good for you.
PINSKY: Should we explore with Sheryl where this all came from?
STANGER: Sure.
PINSKY: How was the relationship with your dad growing up?
SHERYL: Not very good. See, I was a very co-dependent individual because my mother died when I was 9. I`m 43 now about ready to graduate college. And I was blamed for my mother`s death at 9.
PINSKY: Wow. That`s very traumatic.
STANGER: Amazing she got her life back together again. That`s what people need to hear, you`re never too old to get it right.
PINSKY: And it took five marriages, Sheryl, to get -- to work that through?
STANGER: Yes, I finally realized I was scared of the good guys. The guys who would treat me right, I was terrified. The guys who treated me wrong, I was instantly wanting to be with.
PINSKY: Sheryl, there are -- give or take, let`s see -- 30 million women who understand what you`re talking about. You must see this all the time.
STANGER: All the time. The bad boys wet our appetite. They make it us exciting. We`re on a roller coaster of love.
PINSKY: Well, there`s you -- know, the evolutionary biologists say they`re high testosterone alpha males. So you`re prone to that. Most women pull back from that when they become abusive.
STANGER: Yes. The other thing is they like the chase. Women really like the chase. We don`t talk about it enough. It`s exciting to know you won the prize.
PINSKY: Wait a minute. What`s -- I`m not --
STANGER: There`s a chase going on --
PINSKY: There are so many things men don`t know about women. This is another one.
STANGER: When men pull back from us, we want to win you, just like men do with women. It`s no different. It`s the competitive nature.
PINSKY: Men are pretty lazy. When a girl pulls back, men are like, OK, what`s for dinner? I`m just saying.
STANGER: Not all men. Not the L.A. male, that`s for sure.
PINSKY: Depends on who they`re pursuing, I bet.
STANGER: Right.
PINSKY: That really is more about who they are pursuing.
STANGER: We work harder to get you to like us is what I`m saying.
PINSKY: So, is that something that they see as competitive amongst other women maybe? Are they thinking of other women?
STANGER: No. I think they want to know that no matter what they want, we`re going to dance for them. We`re going to drop everything for them and they`re the one. They lose interest because it`s too easy. It works the cycle. It`s a very competitive cycle.
PINSKY: All right. Let`s go back to this sex as a punishment thing that was in "Glamour" magazine.
They also brought up the issue of one-night stands. Are those ever good?
STANGER: We`ve all had them. Maybe not you. You`ve been married forever. I don`t know about you.
But those have been dating in the trenches for 100 years have had them. We get lonely. We -- you know, the vibrators and the sex toys aren`t enough for us anymore. We go out there and it`s too many tequilas and the next thing you got babies. You have to be really careful.
But there`s the oxytocin bonding component that`s terrible for women. The more estrogen you have in your body, the more that this is going to be an attachment/bonding issue.
PINSKY: OK. So, let me explain that.
That when people are physically intimate, they release hormone from pituitary gland called oxytocin in. Under the influence of testosterone, the oxytocin doesn`t work well. Under the influence of estrogen, it becomes extremely powerful and bonds that individual to whomever they were with, no matter how much they want to be bonded with that guy.
Kim in California, you got a question for us, Kim?
KIM, CALLER FROM CALIFORNIA: Well, not so much a question as a comment. Although I agree with the premise that you shouldn`t use sex as a weapon, in a reality, I think it`s a very effective weapon to use, because once you approach your partner with, honey, I need to talk to you or you write the letter or try to hint around and your person that you`re with, their eyes glass over and they grow corks in their ears.
PINSKY: All right.
KIM: As soon as I withhold the sex, now I got your attention.
PINSKY: All right, Kim. Hold that thought. Hold that thought. I want to take a quick break. But I think she`s on to something here, the reason that sex continues to be used as a weapon, it`s such a damn effective weapon. So, hold on.
Now, later in the show, we`re going to talk about break-ups that happen in the public eye. And next, should you pressure your partner in the bedroom if things aren`t goings right?
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: I`m back with Patti Stanger, founder of pattiknows.com.
We`ve been talking about using sex as a weapon. We`ve been talking about one night stand. And we had a caller, I believe it was Kim.
Kim, are you still there?
KIM: Yes, I am.
PINSKY: And you were saying it works so damn well, that`s why you use it as a weapon.
KIM: That`s correct. What I have found is as soon as I withhold sex and now I got your attention, now you`re willing to listen to me.
What I find out is when the person really cares about me, they`re going to change the behaviors so I don`t have to go there again. In the instances where I have to constantly go there, see, now you`re fired, because now I know you don`t really care about me and I got to keep doing these stupid things in order to get you to pay attention to me.
STANGER: It`s Pavlov`s dogs. I mean, that`s what it is.
PINSKY: Yes, I`ve also said, men are very simple. We`re very simple.
STANGER: When you have a normal red blooded male who doesn`t have psychological issues, this is where he`s going to go. It`s like --
PINSKY: But I love her attitude. It`s an acid-test for her. If I have to go more than once, hit the road.
STANGER: You`re done.
And the other thing is this is how women get the ring. This is how we get the ring. More women are getting the ring and getting engaged because they`re saying I`m worth more than this, no more nookie until you pay the piper.
PINSKY: Now, we -- before -- it`s become a commercial operation. Before the break, we were talking about pressuring a partner in the bedroom. What if there`s a sexual desire mismatch?
STANGER: This happens a lot. I can`t tell you how many people are best friends and roommates at home.
PINSKY: That`s no good.
STANGER: No, you got to give it one last-ditch effort. You`ve got to get your testosterone checked, which we talked about last week.
PINSKY: Right. State that again.
Be sure, if you have a problem with sexual desire, let`s say early in the relationship there was a spark and later it dies off. First and foremost, men and women, but especially women -- get your hormones checked. Make sure medications aren`t affecting this. And realize there are some solutions out there. So, talk to a good doctor about that. Yes.
STANGER: Right. A lot of people right now are on DHEA. It`s really - - a lot of gynecologists are recommending this to women as well. This is reviving the 40-plus market.
PINSKY: Talk to your doctor, I think bio identicals and testosterone is the other way to go.
STANGER: When it`s not that way and you don`t have any issues, and you can`t remember what it was like when you kissed him, when you had that first amazing kiss, you got a problem. So, you either have to go away on vacation, you got to find a way to rekindle it, get alone time. If you don`t get to this place, whether with therapy with someone like you, you have to end it, because it`s going to worse. Worse and worse, and someone will cheat, someone will cheat eventually, if they`re not getting their sexual needs met.
PINSKY: And if someone has cheated, is that the time to throw in the towel? Or is it time to redouble your efforts and really do what you`re talking about?
STANGER: That`s a question for you, because you`re the expert on that. I don`t recommend throwing the towel in everyone until you`ve given everything.
PINSKY: Yes, I`m just stunned how easily people go to cheating. That`s just shocking to me.
STANGER: They feel like they deserve it. It`s childish because their sense of entitlement, they deserve it because they`re not getting --
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: They`re angry and resentful, too.
Yes. It`s funny. Would you agree that we in this country don`t know what relationships need?
STANGER: Of course. We have such high expectations about everything.
PINSKY: I heard that Costa Rica has the highest happiness index in the world, they build entire lives around family and relationships.
STANGER: Now way.
PINSKY: And here we barely understand how to have a relationship.
STANGER: No, we have a disposable society. I don`t like you, you don`t treat me right, goodbye. That`s it. People stayed married 50 years ago and worked at their relationships, they didn`t hit the bottle. They go and cheat. They find other stimuli. They worked at it.
PINSKY: I think our biased -- our sort of jaundiced look at that is, oh, they grounded out even though it was no good.
STANGER: Or they settled.
PINSKY: Yes. But the fact is you can get something rich out of staying with a relationship.
STANGER: Right. You just have to have good sex and good companionship.
PINSKY: Stop with the sex, we`ll talk about it.
Rick in Illinois -- Rick, she says just have good sex and you`ll have a good relationship. What do you think?
RICK, CALLER FROM ILLINOIS: I agree. I just met a girl, a through hiking, I called her up and invited her out for dinner and a movie, very casual, no affection.
I want to call her up for a second date. My question is that I want to avoid being a friend to her. I want to find out in the second date, because I want to pursue --
STANGER: I got to answer to this one.
PINSKY: Yes, Rick, this is a great question. I`ve heard this question from men a million times. How do you avoid the friend zone or what we call friendville?
STANGER: It`s called a kiss. It`s called a kiss. When your saliva intermingles with hers, you know this, the testosterone goes back and forth and arouses her zhuszhing downstairs. And we don`t know we like you until you kissed us.
That`s I say on my show all the time, did you kiss her on the first date?
PINSKY: Rick, did you kiss her on the first date?
RICK: I usually don`t. I wait until the second date.
STANGER: Skip the hug. Go to the kiss.
PINSKY: But is there any cues or clues from the kiss that lets the guy know this isn`t where she`s going, if she turns for the cheek.
STANGER: If she`s leaning in through the dinner, touching her hair, giving you the eye gaze, wanting you to feed her. Feeding is very seductive.
PINSKY: Listen, we`ve got to be simple for men, because we`re pretty lame. We think we`re doing fine, all the while planning the kiss. He goes in for the kiss at the end. Are there things that can happen in that moment that lets him know this is not going to work.
STANGER: She pulls away or he says, I don`t kiss on the first date which is a lie. That`s a lie. Total lie. Total lie.
Nobody -- if you like the person, you want the kiss.
PINSKY: Rick, you hear that?
RICK: I did. So, on the second date, I`ll kiss her. Am I already out if I didn`t kiss her on the first date?
STANGER: No, no, no, you got a chance. She`s going to think you`re a gentleman now. So, no, go on for the kill and be the bad boy that she really wants.
PINSKY: Does he have to wait until the end of the date?
STANGER: No, you can do it at any time on the date. You know, you got to find your moment, so that`s for cue, you know? It`s like knowing when to step in, because if you do overshoot it, she`s going to be like -- whoa, what`s going on here? Don`t do like the first moment you see her.
Maybe after a glass of wine. You`ll feel more relaxed.
RICK: OK. Thank you.
PINSKY: OK. Rick, thanks for that call. More with Patti Stanger. Next up, and again later, celebrity relationships that have blown up in the public eye.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: Patti Stanger again with us, on sex and relationship Wednesday. She is the founder of Pattiknows.com.
And, Patti, what else do you think people need to know as a single warrior in this day and age? People worry about STDs, people worry about pregnancy.
STANGER: Yes, I think pregnancies, STDs, being proactive in that department is key. A lot of guys don`t do it.
PINSKY: What if somebody has an STD?
STANGER: Oh, that`s really, you know, interesting.
PINSKY: That`s common. Much more common than people are willing to talk about.
STANGER: We`ve had studies and really researched it. You have to do it before you have sex. You have to tell them, you have to be responsible.
PINSKY: But you tell him on the third date, the second date or third date.
STANGER: Well, I think -- I don`t think you jump into the sack and tell them later. I think you have to get to a place like guys like that are going to take it a little slower. You`ll probably see a cue that he`s a little nervous, he doesn`t know what to do and not going to go into for the kill. That will give an indicator that something is wrong.
PINSKY: Should women bring it up and ask? Do you have something?
STANGER: I think when someone doesn`t have sex with you after two months of dating, you want to know why. Either you`re switch hitting for the wrong side of the street or basically you have a problem here you don`t want to share with me. Sometimes it`s common as depression. You know, I`m on medication. And it`s not moving as fast as it should.
PINSKY: Do you wait two months to ask those kinds of question or is it the third or fourth date?
STANGER: No, I think it`s like, you know, when you`re getting to know -- you`re making out, you`re hanging out and you`re getting physical, maybe not all physical. You`re not going all the way.
PINSKY: Where she feels like it should go.
STANGER: Right. It works both ways. Women have it, too.
PINSKY: Yes, got it.
Darcy in Texas -- you have something for us, Darcy?
DARCY, CALLER FROM TEXAS: Yes, that`s what you were talking about a moment ago. You got a bad picker, trying to date the nice guys, not doing anything for you, but you`re going out with him.
I don`t want them to kiss me. I mean --
PINSKY: Hold on a second. I want to make sure I get the point. You want the bad boys to kiss you but don`t want the good guys to kiss you, is that right?
DARCY: Well, of course. That`s what I`m saying -- I`m dating the nicer guys but they don`t do anything for me. You want to give them a chance and get to know them before you --
PINSKY: This is what drives men insane, the fact that women go, oh, you need to -- the men in here are shaking their head, we need to be dined and romance and stuff. And they see some rock star and throw themselves at him, the same girl.
STANGER: But a lot of times, you can redo someone`s wardrobe to make them more sexually attracted, like his haircut.
I mean, there`s a physical component that you stepped up the curve because you have a certain something. What`s that certain something? Stay on that point. Otherwise what are you dating him for? Because he`s rich.
I mean, that`s not enough to go on a date with somebody.
PINSKY: Helene in Canada. Helene, you got something for us?
HELENE: Hi, Dr. Drew. This is a very important topic today. My husband and I have been married for 60 years.
PINSKY: Congratulations.
HELENE: Yes.
PINSKY: That`s fantastic.
HELENE: And we do not think a person should ever use sex to manipulate anyone. Open communication is the number one factor here.
PINSKY: I agree with you, Helene, but Patti says you`re just lucky because you`re in such a great relationship.
STANGER: It`s not a realistic thing. Men and women have been using it for years. It`s just the way it is.
HELENE: I disagree. It just didn`t happen. It takes hard work.
PINSKY: Yes.
HELENE: And this includes most of us. It`s hard work, and if you get that deep love for another person and in return a meaningful and a loving sex life does follow all the way through your years together.
PINSKY: Helene, I thank you for calling. I think this is a great place to sort of wrap up this conversation. I will just leave your comment on the table and say, if you`re getting to the point where you`re using sex as a weapon, maybe it`s --
STRANGER: Question it.
PINSKY: You question why you`re doing that and time to look at that relationship and pay attention.
Patti, as always, thank you so much.
STRANGER: Thanks for having me.
PINSKY: It`s always fun to have you here. We`ll have you again no doubt.
Next up, can a marriage survive the media spotlight? Yes, marriages - - high-profile marriages that are breaking up today. We`ve heard a lot about that. We`ll get into that after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (voice-over): Public breakups, we watch them, talk about them, maybe relate to them. Chad and Evelyn are the latest. Usher is in an ugly battle with his ex. Kim Kardashian an Kris Humphries are in court. The list goes on and on.
But what`s it like for people whose love lives exist in the media spotlight and what can we learn from them?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: And we`re talking about relationships in the public.
Joining me, host of "Divorce Court" and author of "Making Marriage Work," Judge Lynn Toler.
Relationship expert, Marni Kinrys, author of "Ten Mistakes Men Make with Women and How to Avoid Them."
And star of "Basketball Wives L.A." and author of "Luv-Pons: A Love Guide, Romance Guide for Couples," Jackie Christie.
Jackie, what`s your response to the breakup of Evelyn Lozada and Chad Johnson?
JACKIE CHRISTIE, STAR, "BASKETBALL WIVES": You know, I feel it very unfortunate. I know they love each other. I follow their story. I met Evelyn. She`s a sweetheart. To see them break up so quickly, it really affects me. And that`s why I did the book.
PINSKY: Judge Toler, so much gets played out in front of cameras. In fact, my wife and I have a rule, no cameras in our house. It seems like ever time a camera gets in the house, except for Ozzie and Sharon, every other marriage that has a camera on it, dissolves. Is that that a coincidence or is a person that wants to be -- have their marriage in the public? Or is it a function of being in the public?
JUDGE LYNN TOLER, HOST, "DIVORCE COURT": It`s funny you said that about your wife. I`ve got -- someone approached me for a show in the home, and my husband says you can do it, but you`ll have to find another man do it with because I won`t do it with you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My husband said the same thing.
TOLER: Clearly, it wasn`t going to work. I don`t think it`s necessarily the cameras in the home. When you think about it, there are the Duggars and "Little People Big World." There are those who can do it and do it successfully.
I think when you have celebrity and you do put cameras in the home, you need a little struggle, you need a little drama. It feeds on itself. It builds on itself. The celebrity in and of itself makes a relationship more difficult.
PINSKY: Marni, how is that, celebrity makes it difficult?
MARNI KINRYS, RELATIONSHIP EXPERT: Because you`re a celebrity, being watched by tons of people around the world. And you`re expected to do something. You can`t come on and be wonderful like you and be a happy go lucky person. It`s not exciting to watch that.
PINSKY: Is it a function of the camera, the producers are heating that up?
KINRYS: Yes, absolutely.
CHRISTIE: I absolutely have to disagree with that, only because me and my husband have done two reality shows and both of them have been successful. We did "Christies Committed" on BET. It was a hit show. We was lovey-dovey, like we are normally and we survived. And now, we`re doing this.
KINRYS: Those were the characters that you were. Other people on the show --
PINSKY: You have to stay on top of your husband, women throwing themselves at him.
CHRISTIE: You know what? I love that, Dr. Drew and I love being challenged like that. Because this show -- that`s why they got it September 10th, 2012, because you`re going to see, my husband actually does rebuttal me on certain things. But most of the time, I`m right. So, why not? I mean --
KINRYS: But that`s your character. You`re already that type of assertive woman, which does cause drama. If you`re not that type of character and you`re being told by producers to step it up a notch, you`re going to step it up a notch.
PINSKY: But, Marni, it doesn`t seem to be exclusive -- I`ll let you in, Judge, in just one second -- does not seem to be exclusive to people who have cameras in their home. Other celebrities seem to have difficulty maintaining their relationships when there`s a lot of public scrutiny. My research, and I have the only published research in the world on this, shows that the people who become celebrities have the kinds of liabilities that make it very difficult for them to have relationships.
KINRYS: Really?
PINSKY: Yes, they have lots of drama, lots of addictions. Judge, do you agree with me or disagree?
TOLER: I with you agree totally. I think the celebrity itself ratchets that up. Because when you`re a celebrity, the world is all about you and you`re used to hearing the word yes. But in a relationship, hearing yes all the time is not what occurs. You have people watching you, you have people liking you and loving you and wanting you, and you have plenty of opportunity to do the wrong things. Celebrity does put a lot of extra stress and pressure. And people who are celebrities tend to have a different sort of personality, that is more exuberant and may lead to more difficulties.
PINSKY: That`s right, Judge, I agree with you.
KINRYS: I want to add to that as well. I think a lot of people who are celebrities, as you said, they really don`t have to do any work to get them a yes answer. They are typically hearing yes all the time. And relationships are about work and about setting your ego aside. So if your work is driven by ego, then you`re going to have an ego in your relationship, which is going to be a fault.
PINSKY: Take some calls. Paulette in Utah, Paulette, go right ahead.
CALLER: Hi, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Paulette.
CALLER: I believe marriages are hard without the glare of TV to begin with. And I think these couples who choose to go in front of the camera, it just seems many of them, not all of them, but many of them are doomed.
PINSKY: Paulette, let me interrupt you. How old are you?
CALLER: I`m 60 years old.
PINSKY: How long have you been married?
CALLER: I was married for 25 years.
PINSKY: What happened?
CALLER: I left an abusive relationship.
PINSKY: OK. Fair enough, fair enough. I agree with you Paulette. But, Jackie, you`re sort of bucking the trend.
CHRISTIE: I definitely feel like we`re bucking the trend. And I`m not saying we`re perfect. No, we`re not. And it`s funny because I noticed that she`s right. It is harder when you`re a celebrity. Sometimes I think, if me and Doug are having an argument, oh, my glad, I`m so glad the cameras are not here. But it`s not that I think that they`re going to affect our relationship, but we`re committed to the commitment. That`s what our book is all about, it`s about me and Doug. And this is who we really are. We forget the cameras are there. But God forbid that one day, when an argument does break out, because then you have the media that comes in on top of it.
PINSKY: I see, picking sides and everything, I see.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Judge, you wanted to comment on that?
TOLER: Well, I was just saying that we`re always talking about what`s happening on the cameras and in the cameras and once you`re in a relationship. But I often see among celebrities, and I`m not just talking about reality celebrities, but I think they get married too quickly, and everything is a rush, and the love is fantastic, and all of their life is really like a fairy tale. And like this is, too, he`s the right guy.
PINSKY: That`s the personality problem. That`s the stuff that came up in my research. They have personality liabilities, let`s call them. They`re not necessarily healthy emotionally, so they`re prone to these overdramatized, over-idealized relationships.
Courtney in Louisiana. Courtney.
CALLER: Hi, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Courtney.
CALLER: My view on this is that you look at the track record of these reality shows and what they`ve done to marriage. If you look at Nick and Jessica, Hulk Hogan and his wife Linda, and most recently Kim Kardashian and Kris Humphries. I mean, why would you want to put your marriage under even more scrutiny than it already is in the public eye?
PINSKY: Courtney, that`s an interesting question. I wonder if one, now with the three of us, Judge Toler, myself and Marni, you, have spouses who say, no cameras, and I happen to agree with my spouse. But do you think it is sometimes driven, Jackie, by one spouse more than the other, and that really heats up a conflict just in and of itself?
CHRISTIE: I definitely do. And I`ve gotten married 17 times to my husband, and we`ve been through two reality shows.
PINSKY: Hold on, hold on.
CHRISTIE: Oh, yes.
PINSKY: Got married 17 times? I have to stop there. We`ll start up with understanding how you got married 17 times -- the same guy, I hope.
CHRISTIE: The same guy.
PINSKY: OK, good, good. Next up, more on celebrity love affairs that didn`t make it and why. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: Welcome back to sex and relationship Wednesday. Back with me, host of "Divorce Court," Judge Lynn Toler, relationship expert Marni Kinrys, and star of "Basketball Wives," Jackie Christie.
OK, now, before we went to break, we heard that Jackie had been married 17 times, and my first -- the thought bubble in my head was, oh, another woman, writing books about marriage, been married 17 times. But then I realized it`s been the same guy.
CHRISTIE: Same guy.
PINSKY: Explain that.
CHRISTIE: Yes. We got married -- he proposed on Friday, we got married on a Tuesday. Some of the people in our family couldn`t make it, so we decided, you know, on our anniversary, let`s do it again. And then we loved it so much, we decided let`s do it every year. And it`s become a family tradition. And it`s actually taken off around the country. People are starting to get married again, and let`s bring sexy back to marriage.
PINSKY: I may get angry with you, because my wife is going to pick that up, and that sounds like an expensive proposition.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: See, damn you, Jackie.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Go ahead.
TOLER: I was just going to say, before we leave the subject of Chad and Evelyn totally, I want to say that I`ve been a judge -- I was a judge in a municipal court for years and I did hundreds of domestic violence cases. When we get past all of the relationship stuff, I think it`s really important to know that if, in fact, domestic violence was involved and her decision to leave was immediate as it was, that needs to be highlighted and remembered, because that is the concern that I would see in my court for domestic violence, and women who try to work it out or even men who try to work it out in domestic violence relationships. I applaud it. And I say the one blow you go rule should always apply.
PINSKY: So, Judge, I want to make sure I`m hearing you right. Are you saying do try to work it out when there`s violence or try to get out? Get out of there?
TOLER: No, absolutely. Get out completely.
PINSKY: Yes, I agree.
TOLER: A lot of women try to work it out. And I just want to applaud the fact, if there was domestic violence here, people need to note that she left immediately, and that is something that you should follow.
PINSKY: Yes, I`m so glad you brought that up. That was going to be my next question to you, it was about that very issue, and the fact that -- let`s listen to what Judge Toler said. If you`re in a domestic violence issue, if it comes to pushing, shoving, and let`s face it, even emotional abuse, and you consult with a professional, their first and foremost priority is going to be getting you out of there.
KINRYS: Are you saying getting out of the marriage, or getting out of the relationship or are you saying getting out of the space that you share together?
PINSKY: Well, usually -- it`s -- listen, we had a guy on last night who himself was an abuser, and it took him ten years of work to become not an abuser. So by and large it`s about separating these people and they do their own work, and then make decisions later about the relationship.
TOLER: And you have to leave safely as well. Sometimes when you have -- it could be the most dangerous time in a relationship when the woman or the man does actually leave. So you need information first. Make the decision to do something, but do it safely, and you need information to do it safely.
PINSKY: It`s why when we see professionals or judges like Judge Toler seeing Rihanna and Chris Brown getting back together, we hold our breath. Because we know it`s going right back where it left off.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: So we got to remember that. Let`s go to some calls. Dee in Illinois. Dee.
CALLER: Hi, Dr. Drew. My question or my concern is about Evelyn`s behavior. I watched "Basketball Wives" for a couple of seasons, and I noticed how violent she was. And so my -- I was concerned when she said that Chad Johnson should get the help he needs. But where is her help?
PINSKY: OK. Who wants to take that?
KINRYS: I agree with that.
PINSKY: Marni.
KINRYS: I think it`s both people that are in the relationship. No. 1, you have to look at why you`ve stayed in that relationship so long if it`s been an abusive relationship, as well as looking at your own behavior. If she`s been aggressive and violent in the public eye--
PINSKY: And also attracted to abusive guys. Jackie, have you ever been in an abusive relationship?
CHRISTIE: Actually you know what, I have, back prior. I`ve been married before my husband, so you can tell me --
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Eighteen times, you`ve been married 18 times.
CHRISTIE: Actually, three times before this marriage. So it goes deep, Dr. Drew. But I was looking for my prince and I finally found him. And I`m happy.
PINSKY: Did you have any kind of work? Do you work on yourself in any way?
CHRISTIE: Definitely I did. I realized that I was getting into relationships where I was the needer and I was needy and I wanted that picket fence. And I had this idea in my head, and I had to come to a realization after my second marriage that it`s probably something that I needed to work on myself and not look for in someone else. And luckily I found Doug and I`m happy, but I was in an abusive relationship, and that first time when I got hit, I left immediately. So I`ve always told women, get out.
And I`m more of an aggressive type. If you hit me, you`re going to get hit back. There`s a lot of women that`s not like that.
PINSKY: And Judge Toler, what do we do with people that want to take aim at Evelyn, because -- because she is aggressive, it doesn`t mean that she deserved a giant gash in her forehead.
TOLER: Absolutely not. And when you say aggressive and aggression, if you`re talking about verbally, or if you`re loud and demonstrative and all of that, that`s one thing. But at no time does that invite or justify getting hit or getting hurt. Now, she may want to tone down her aggressiveness because it might cause her -- somebody who is not level and not doing the right thing, to go for her, but -- and she might want to work on that for herself. But at no time does any amount of excitement, does that entitle someone to hit you.
KINRYS: You`re absolutely right. It doesn`t mean you deserve a punch in the face.
PINSKY: But it means you need to do some work. Listen, even if you`re just going after guys who are abusive, you need to do some work. Even if you`re passive and you`re going after guys who are abusive, you need some work.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: I got to take a break, Jackie, so make it quick, go ahead.
CHRISTIE: I`m an aggressive person. And as you can see on my show, I`m that way. But that does not give my husband the right to ever put his hands on me regardless, so I don`t want it to be blamed on Evelyn. She was loud, and that`s why she got hit.
PINSKY: Absolutely, we agree. OK, guys, thank you, very good. We`re going to have more on this after the break, but right now it is time for "Our Country Votes."
Mitt Romney`s pick for VP is Paul Ryan, who may be one of the most physically fit members of Congress. He is 6`2, 163 pounds, with somewhere between 6 and 8 percent body fat. He works out like crazy. And the question here is, does that matter to you as a voter? On Facebook, Sherri says, "maybe Paul Ryan will encourage heavier people in America to get in shape." I certainly -- whether he is elected or not, I think it`s a great idea when our leaders lead by example. That`s a great idea, guys. How about more of our political figures working out and watching their own health?
OK, we`re going to be back with more of the calls, so stay with us after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: Back with me, host of "Divorce Court," Judge Lynn Toler, relationship expert Marni Kinrys and star of "Basketball Wives Los Angeles," Jackie Christie.
Guys, I want to talk about the sort of collateral damage of all this. There are often kids involved. People`s sort of emotional health I bet is affected by having to withstand this onslaught of -- there`s a lot of negativity on social media, right?
KINRYS: Yes.
PINSKY: People are brutal. I want to say something. People worry about kids on video games that are violent. Hey, kids act out on real people through social media is unbelievably violent ways, and it really is something that needs to be addressed. And I`m sure the kids of these marriages get affected.
KINRYS: I`m sure. It`s horrible. Even for me, I have a whole bunch of videos out on Youtube, and people say the meanest things. In the very beginning it crushed me, and I would cry when I would read them. And I started feeling bad for those people. And so yes, I would say that children of these divorces or of any domestic violence situations, they have to --
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: But the added pressure of the public. I mean, the product of divorce is always bad times.
CHRISTIE: It is horrible, especially when you have a father that`s a professional athlete and a mother that`s on there. And that`s what I think about all the time. Oh, my God, if my marriage was to fail, what would it do to my 11-year-old son, who`s on social media? This is what they`re doing now, that generation is all about reading what`s being posted.
PINSKY: And, Judge Toler, you must see more of this than any of us?
TOLER: Yes, I do. I mean, social media, there`s rarely a case I see in divorce court these days where there isn`t some kind of social media involved. They conduct a whole separate life on social media, and then they become investigators, I`m looking at his Facebook page, I`m breaking into this pass code, and I`m looking at this phone thing and text messages. They print them out. It`s amazing. But it becomes a whole separate life unto itself. And it`s contentious and it is breaking a lot of people up.
PINSKY: Bob in Pennsylvania, you have a comment for us, Bob?
CALLER: Dr. Drew, I was wondering how did we become so involved into the celebrities` personal lives? And it`s like not only do we get involved in it, we search out for the most negative things you can think of.
PINSKY: Bob, great question.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Who wants to take that? Is that what it is, Marni? Marni first. Each of you will comment, Marni first.
KINRYS: You`re on a reality show. So you (inaudible).
CHRISTIE: I get beat up, Marni, like you wouldn`t believe, for no reason.
PINSKY: So what is it? Why do they care?
CHRISTIE: They hate it, they hate me, they hate what I do.
PINSKY: Why are people caught up in this? What does it say? This is the thing, Judge Toler, I`ll give you the last word on this. What does it say about us, the viewers, the population at large, that we are so caught up in this and so vile towards people in the public media?
TOLER: I think there`s a sense of separation these days. It`s hard to be so mean if you`re looking someone in the eye face to face, room to room. I think the distance that the Internet creates gives us such a sense, not only of anonymity, but just lack of empathy, and it allows us to view and be lurid and enjoy other people`s difficulties. Their life is worse than mine. Let`s get some popcorn and watch it.
PINSKY: It`s a concern because aggression promotes a drop in empathy, and we`re encouraging aggression. Thank you, Judge Toler, Marni Kinrys, and Jackie Christie. And of course, more of your calls after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: We`re about to get back to the phones here. I want to remind you that you can call us at 855-373-7395. If we don`t get to you while the show is on, we have answering devices, obviously, we`ll try to get back to you and answer your calls, get you on the air here.
Let`s go on out to Natalie in California. Natalie.
CALLER: Hi, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: What is that accent?
CALLER: Russian accent, actually.
PINSKY: Russian. Lovely. What`s up?
CALLER: It`s not Russian, I wouldn`t say. I spent a lot of time in Europe. So it`s kind of like from everywhere.
PINSKY: Got it.
CALLER: But anyway, I have a question from you. I always wanted to call you. I`m struggling with letting go of a marriage. We`ve only been married for over two years. And he was too good to be true, basically, very charming, seemingly wonderful person. Fell in love rather quickly and got married quickly. Didn`t even date that long. I thought that was it for me. I worked on this marriage so hard, I gave him everything.
PINSKY: Hold on a second, hold on. How old was he and how old were you?
CALLER: He`s younger than me, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: How old?
CALLER: He`s 25.
PINSKY: And you`re how old.
CALLER: I`m 42.
PINSKY: 42. And what has gone wrong? What was it that -- in the sort of honeymoon phase of the marriage, you don`t have to work that hard. What are you working on?
CALLER: I`m in the entertainment industry. He is a guy from Illinois, who actually has not seen any Hollywood life, and I`ve taken him to Kremlin and basically all kinds of beautiful shows. And he`s been -- he`s been traveling the world with me, Europe and all kind of things.
PINSKY: None of that matters. What is it that you`ve had to work on?
CALLER: The problem is I had no idea he was diagnosed with bipolar, severely bipolar.
PINSKY: OK. And by the way, the way you described him initially as so glorious and so charming, I thought, oh, narcissist or sociopath, too. So he`s got some characterological things going on, as well. Everything who he seemed to be, he was not, was he?
CALLER: Dr. Drew, he was absolutely not. Everything was fake. Unfortunately, I had to leave him when he almost murdered me. I mean, he choked me to the point where I couldn`t breathe. I was like, I was out of oxygen.
PINSKY: Natalia, Natalia--
CALLER: I know.
PINSKY: So you did the right thing. You got out of there, you left. Right? OK. Done and done, done.
CALLER: I did.
PINSKY: Now you`re saying I can`t get over grieving the loss of this glorious relationship with the murdering jerk?
CALLER: There`s certain days, there`s certain days that I feel really, really wonderful. And then I feel like a failure. I tell you more, something you probably wouldn`t want to hear from me. I have a doctorate degree in psychology.
PINSKY: So, Natalia, then I can talk to you very straightforwardly. You need to go do your own work. You haven`t done your own work. Having the cognitive information is not having the emotional change associated with that cognitive change. You`ve got to go do the interpersonal work associated with emotional focus therapy. You have to do it. You must have some abandonment issues. You must have some--
CALLER: My mother was an alcohol and died from it. I always tried to say that--
PINSKY: Then all the information in the world is not going to help that. I don`t care how many PhDs you have, it`s never going to fix what is going on inside. You have got to go do the therapy. And it will take a long time. So we know what the issue is. And I`m sure there was stuff with dad, too, because dad chose the alcoholic mom. So, listen my dear, go do the work. You sit there and you do the work. You`re scared, you`re afraid. Let me ask you something, you have a doctorate. Does anybody ever used--
CALLER: Yes, I do.
PINSKY: Do you have sort of borderline stuff yourself?
CALLER: No, I wasn`t diagnosed with any borderline, but I think right now I probably am somewhat depressed, because I don`t like to feel like a failure. That`s how I felt with mom.
PINSKY: Well, OK, there you go. So it`s back to mom, and unable to save mom. Now, you couldn`t save this guy. Who knows what -- he might have been an addict, too, in addition to everything else, we don`t know. But Natalia, please, my goodness, my heart starts to hurt for you. It`s time, it`s time. You`ve suffered for years. You`ve suffered most of your life. It`s time to get in there and get the real work done. It`s going to be sitting there and going through the real pain, not this sort of superficial pain you`re having, losing this wonderful relationship and having been a failure at trying to fix somebody you`ll never be able to fix. A team of professionals couldn`t fix this guy. You know that.
Go, please, do the work. Thanks, Natalia.
Next, Christie in North Carolina. Very limited time. Go ahead.
CALLER: Hi, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Christie.
CALLER: Yes, hi. My question is concerning gambling addictions. I`ve struggled with that for a long time.
PINSKY: Have you gone to GA? Have you gone to Gamblers Anonymous?
CALLER: Yes, sir, this is my third go-round.
PINSKY: And -- and your question?
CALLER: It works, it works.
PINSKY: Good. Your question is?
CALLER: My question is could the gambling come from something that had happened maybe with my self-esteem? I have a kind of a low self- esteem.
PINSKY: Yes, Christie, like any addiction, it can be fueled by that sort of thing. So doing therapeutic work with a professional can be just as important or important, adjunct, to your 12-step work, but don`t negate the 12-step work. Thank you all for watching. Thanks for calling, thanks to my guests, and Nancy Grace starts right now.
END
