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Dr. Drew
Sex and Relationships
Aired August 22, 2012 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST (voice-over): Are you ready for sex and relationship Wednesday?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The vibrators and sex toys aren`t enough for us anymore.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We want to have sex and we get bored having sex with the same person over and over again.
PINSKY: Tonight -- should you stay married after an affair? Are you bored with your partner? Is it OK to use sex to get what you want and dating after divorce.
Would you agree with me that we in this country don`t really know what relationships need?
And later, would you and your spouse share your home and your bed with another couple?
Showtime`s "Polyamory: Married and Dating" features people who are doing just that, and it`s not just for the sex.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: OK, so let`s get started. Welcome to our sex and relationship Wednesday.
Joining me, professional matchmaker, Siggy Flicker.
I also have Emily Morse, star of Bravo`s "Miss Advised"
And Amy Alkon, nationally known as "The Advice Goddess".
Amy, let`s get into it. What do you do if you`re bored in marriage?
AMY ALKON, THE ADVICE GODDESS: Well, actually, research shows that variety literally is the spice of happiness and that you really have to shake it up. But just in small ways. The researcher actually has a baby and they just go off on the weekends to a hotel. Even if you`re just arguing over cocktail peanuts, instead about rather than what you argue for at home, it makes a difference.
PINSKY: So, I`m not sure I heard all of what you`re saying. So, it`s -- make change and create opportunities to be alone and have relationship.
ALKON: Yes. That`s very important -- but variety is so important but people think they have to make huge changes, but it`s actually, shake your daily environment up in some way.
PINSKY: Emily, variety, you agree with that?
EMILY MORSE, STAR, "MISS ADVISED": Oh, yes, absolutely. You have to have variety in a relationship. Things get stale, old in a relationship. You have to spice it up. Like if it`s date night, people say, oh, we hate planning that. Let`s be spontaneous.
But you know what? You got kids, you got a life, you got a routine, you have to work in the date night. You have to do it.
PINSKY: Siggy, if somebody is bored in a marriage, is that a warning sign or just to be expected?
SIGGY FLICKER, MATCHMAKER: I think that you need to pop the bubble. Marriage, relationships take work. It`s like a car. If you don`t put gas in your car, the car will not get from point A to point B. You have to spice it up. And you have to do something spectacular. Every week, you`ve got to focus on your relationship and I know if I didn`t I`d be divorced again. I have to have a date night.
PINSKY: Give me an example. Example of something spectacular, you`ve piqued my interest. Something spectacular, what does that mean?
FLICKER: Spectacular is this -- I don`t know if everybody can do this -- every Wednesday night regardless of what we`re diagnose, my husband and I have a date night. I get dressed up. I make sure I`m wearing a nice dress, I put on lip gloss, I get my hair done, we go to a restaurant and if we`re lucky enough and I have my mother helping me out with the kids, we stay in a hotel overnight.
PINSKY: Spectacular.
FLICKER: It`s getting out of the routine and popping the bubble and doing something in a different atmosphere.
PINSKY: Let`s go out to our caller, Chantel in Ontario. Chantel, you`ve got something?
CHANTEL, CALLER FROM ONTARIO: Yes. I just want to talk about being unfaithful myself.
PINSKY: OK. Hold on. That is our next topic. Our next topic is what if somebody cheats in a marriage. Are you married?
CHANTEL: Well, I`ve been for 20 years with the same person. So, it`s pretty much marriage, yes.
PINSKY: But not marriage per se. Did you have feelings about that? Did you want to be married?
CHANTEL: Oh, no, I never believed in marriage because of the way I grew up. I saw my mom and dad cheating on them -- on each other.
PINSKY: OK. So you stayed in this non-marriage, which was effectively a marriage but you didn`t get the legal benefits of marriage and you went ahead and cheated.
CHANTEL: Excuse me?
PINSKY: You went ahead and cheated.
CHANTEL: Yes, I did. I did previously before being with that person, too. There is no relation that I have been faithful to.
PINSKY: Which of course you`ve never had any model of that. Let`s get to your question. Do you have a question?
CHANTEL: Well, I was wondering if it`s -- you know, in the family, is it hereditary or is it, like --
PINSKY: No.
OK. Ladies, who would like to ring in? Hereditary or environment -- Amy, go.
ALKON: I would answer this by saying, you have to commit to being an ethical person. This is not what comes naturally. Actually cheating probably comes naturally. You have to decide to be ethical, make a commitment and stick to that.
PINSKY: Well, people have intimacy disorders and they feel terribly uncomfortable in close relationships and they either leave them or cheat them or force the other person to leave. This is how psychologically these things get managed.
Siggy, do you ever see this?
FLICKER: Yes, I see it a lot with clients. It`s called insecurity. When people are insecure within themselves, what they do is they act upon it. I have several people who are in relationships and they end up going out there and cheating. When I ask why, I think he was going to do it first so I wanted to get it out of the way.
There is no excuse. I agree with this caller. You don`t need to be married. You don`t need to have a piece of paper to be in a relationship. But you need to be committed to each other. You need to be committed and do the work.
PINSKY: Emily, you agree?
MORSE: Yes, I agree. I mean, I think that you have to communicate in a relationship. And that`s when things start coming up and you want to cheat and you want to be with other people. It`s because there`s been a breakdown in your communication.
I always say that couples just have to talk about these things because if you`re not discussing, you know, my eyes are starting to wander -- the thing that gets to me that couples agree until death to us part, and we`re going to walk down the aisle and we`re going to be monogamous, but they never talk about, what`s going to happen if someone else comes into the picture and there`s someone else we`re interested in?
How do we deal with that situation? Because it`s inevitable.
PINSKY: Look at your families of origin, ladies and gentlemen. If you had severe cheating, chaos, drama in your family, you`ll find someone to re-create that with in your life. And if you don`t find that person, you will be the person that perpetrates and recreates it yourself.
Deborah in California?
DEBORAH, CALLER FROM CALIFORNIA: Hi, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: What`s up?
DEBORAH: I`ve been on both sides of the coin. I`ve been cheated on, and I have actually been with a cheater, who was cheating on his girlfriend/wife. He married her after we were cheating -- he was cheating with me, and he met her by cheating on his first wife.
PINSKY: Just the love of your life, Deborah. Well done.
DEBORAH: Oh, yes! You know, and then the other one that cheated on me did it with my best friend, in my house, in my bed!
PINSKY: OK. Oh, my God. OK, we`re laughing but it`s --
FLICKER: I can`t --
PINSKY: Siggy is -- go ahead, respond.
FLICKER: No. When somebody -- when somebody cheats, it`s a disconnect in the relationship. Once a cheater, always a cheater. I`m sorry, you got exactly what you deserve in the end.
When you make a commitment to somebody, you don`t stray away. I agree with the breakdown of communication. If something is happening in the relationship, it is imperative, it is so important to be able to express yourself so you don`t get to a point where you`re looking the other way or straying from your relationship.
PINSKY: Amy, you have a comment?
ALKON: Yes. I think it`s important to live consciously. We don`t do that, we want to believe the best in people. That`s really the worst way because life will eventually come bite you and bite you harder if you let it delay.
PINSKY: You know, what`s the caller`s name again? I`m sorry, Deborah is it? Deborah, are you still there?
DEBORAH: Yes.
PINSKY: Deborah, I feel so bad for you. You`ve got a broken picker. You pick bad people.
DEBORAH: I was cheated on before I was with the cheater himself.
PINSKY: I get it. Was your dad absent or something? You never had a relationship with your dad growing up?
DEBORAH: No. He was around.
PINSKY: Where did you get involved with these cheaters?
DEBORAH: Bad boy complex maybe.
PINSKY: OK. And how was dad? How was your relationship? Was the dad kind of one of those guys? Is he an alcoholic or anything?
DEBORAH: No, not at all. I guess I was just a rebel kid.
PINSKY: Well, there`s usually reasons for that but maybe it`s just one of those things. But thanks for the call.
Next up, more questions and answers with Siggy, Emily and Amy and your calls.
And later, we`re going to segue from this conversation to two couples who -- we talk about cheating, these two couples share their partners. That`s right. But at the same time, they say they`re committed. Yes, I need a black board to understand this one.
We`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: Welcome back to our sex and relationship Wednesday. We`re going to pick up where we left off.
Amy, you wanted to comment about that last caller Deborah who was with multiple cheaters and during the break, you whisper something to my ear and that was very important.
ALKON: Right. It`s that you have to have self-esteem. You have to work on yourself. If you feel good about yourself then the idea that you`ll commit to being an ethical person and following through with that, that`s something that becomes first nature.
PINKSY: And, Emily, wouldn`t you agree you would be attracted to and attracted by better people if you feel better about yourself?
MORSE: Absolutely. Everything comes down to self-esteem. If couples are having problems sexually, they`re having problems communicating, it`s always about self-esteem. And that is something that no matter how much time your partner reaffirms you and tells you how wonderful you are, if you don`t cultivate confidence, and if you don`t make it your life work to be more confident and to improve your self-esteem, it`s going to wreak havoc in your relationship every time.
PINSKY: Siggy, I would say that if -- let`s look at a marriage, for instance. I know we`re talking about relationship generally. But let`s say it`s a marriage. If there is cheating, to me that`s a symptom that that marriage is not well.
Would you agree with that?
FLICKER: Absolutely. There`s a disconnect. That marriage is not well.
But I agree with Emily, and I believe that you first have to love yourself. You can`t ask somebody else to love you if you don`t love your self. And when you lead with your truer self and you love yourself, people just automatically fall in love with you. It starts within you.
PINSKY: It does indeed. Remember, where does esteem come from? It comes from our relationship with our parents and our family of origin. The self emerges in the context of those relationships and we were treated then affects our choices now.
We`re getting a bunch of calls about cheating.
So, let`s go to Kristin in Louisiana -- Kristin.
KRISTIN, CALLER FROM LOUISIANA: Hi, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Kristin, how are you?
KRISTIN: I`m good.
PINSKY: I`m good. What do you got for us?
KRISTIN: I basically want to know how do you come out of being the other girl for a guy that just broke up out of a relationship?
PINSKY: I`m not sure I understand it. You mean -- I`m not sure I understand the question.
KRISTIN: OK. So like a guy breaks up with a girl, his girlfriend, and you`re like the extra girl. How do you --
PINSKY: Was she -- were you the one being cheated with? He was cheating with you?
KRISTIN: Yes.
PINSKY: You were the cheateree.
Emily, you`re shaking your head. Go ahead.
MORSE: I do believe that people can change if they really want to change. They have to work on why they`re cheating. But if you`re the one he`s cheating with, he`s going to cheat on you with somebody else. I just don`t think it`s a good path to go down.
PINSKY: I agree, Emily. Do any of you three disagree with me on this statement -- if you want to know how your relationship is going to end, look at how his last one ended? It ended with him cheating with you. He`s going to cheat with somebody else, right, Amy?
ALKON: And I want to say, add other thing, the last caller, it`s important to be really realistic about life. Relationships get boring. If you can`t put up with that, then don`t get in a committed relationship or do things like living apart.
PINSKY: That`s a great thing to say, which is, if you can`t -- if you want to be a monogamous relationship and be committed, be committed, if you don`t, don`t. Go ahead and date and cheat.
ALKON: That`s fine. People make all of this about hooking up in their 20s. Oh, this is terrible.
No. When they`re done with that stage, they`ll get into a committed relationship. But you have to do that homework to figure out who you are.
PINSKY: Siggy says yes?
FLICKER: I agree, yes.
PINSKY: Emily?
FLICKER: Not only do I say yes --
MORSE: I just -- I don`t think that monogamy should be the only choice. I think people that the only models we see in our culture is monogamy. I believe it`s kind of an epidemic in our culture, because people don`t realize there are other ways to live your life.
PINSKY: Well, I`m going to get into that -- I`m going to get into that, in spades after we finish our conversation with this couple that`s -- I have to diagram it to figure it out.
But, listen, as a clinician, I do know that people are healthier, happier, live longer, have less medical problems, particularly men, when he or she, he particularly, is in sustained monogamous relationships. So, it`s healthier for sure. It`s not the only choice but it`s healthier.
Sheryl in Iowa -- Sheryl.
SHERYL, CALLER FROM IOWA: I have so much I could say, but I`ll try to keep it brief.
PINSKY: OK.
SHERYL: First of all, my dad told me, he was an alcoholic and abusive individual.
PINSKY: Nice.
SHERYL: He gave me one good advice. He said, if you`re being accused of cheating, usually the other person is the one cheating or thinking about it -- which I have found true.
PINSKY: Have you been with a bunch of cheaters?
SHERYL: Yes, I`ve been married five times.
PINSKY: Oh, Sheryl! How does that work out?
SHERYL: Well, my fifth marriage is pretty good. Me and my husband haven`t had sex in four years due to some of his health problems.
PINSKY: Oh, I`m sorry.
SHERYL: But he told me straight-up coming into the relationship. I said, if you are done with me, tell me before you cheat.
PINSKY: Were you -- I`m just going to toss something out. Did you have some sexual trauma growing up?
SHERYL: Yes. I was abused by aunts, uncles, babysitters.
PINSKY: OK. I think it`s interesting you look at your fifth marriage as being successful without sex. Siggy, that`s kind of hard for -- Emily, go ahead. Emily, first, Emily, you say I know. Go ahead.
MORSE: I just think that any couple that doesn`t connect sexually and they say, everything`s great, he pays the bills, I take out the trash and everything is wonderful, if you`re not having sex, you are not in a healthy relationship, because you need that sex for the intimacy and you needed to connect with each other.
PINSKY: I completely agree with you. Data shows clearly that couples particularly that have it 1 1/2 to 2 times a week tend to be happier than those that have less.
But I`ll tell you what? For Sheryl who was sexually abused, and that`s still unresolved, so for her out of the relationship works.
ALKON: But I have something to say. You need to resolve those issues of course but actually people have this mistaken view of sex. It`s all or nothing. It`s intercourse or nothing.
People need to fool around. Maybe the guy has erectile dysfunction now, but he can still make out with you, and that intimacy, like one of my colleagues said in San Francisco, it`s extremely important.
PINSKY: Siggy, you wanted to comment on this, too?
FLICKER: Yes, no. But I want to say it`s all about finding a balance. With this last caller, she`s so afraid of being cheated on that she leads with always suspecting her partner is cheating on her. So, right now, she`s very happy with the fact that or not that happy, with the fact that she`s not having sex.
It goes back to balancing. Whoever promised you that life was going to be a box of chocolates lied to you. There is no butterflies in your stomach. Every relationship takes work. If you`re not going to work on it, it`s going to die. You`re going to end up being cheated on or being the cheater.
PINSKY: The fact is, you said a lot of interesting stuff there, Siggy, that intensity is not necessarily the sign of a good relationship. In fact, what we say -- when we`re treating people who mistake intensity for love is, rather than think lightning bolts, think butterflies. That`s healthier. People that pick cheaters, pick bad people, we heard somebody talking about picking a bad boy, that`s looking for a lightning bolt. That isn`t healthy necessarily.
ALKON: The temperature of your relationship is something you can control. And one way I think you can do is by always treating the person like you love them, never treating them like you stopped loving them, even when you`re annoyed. Taking that five seconds and control yourself.
PINSKY: You guys are packing a lot of stuff into these statements.
Emily, I want to go to you, too. Yes, because treating somebody like you love them is an aphorism that could cover so much that goes wrong in relationships. People don`t treat each other like they love the person. That`s not how you treat somebody you love.
MORSE: No, if you love somebody, you have to constantly affirm them, you have to constantly tell them you love them, do loving things, think of them often, bring them treats or make small efforts.
Relationships do take work, and anyone who tells you it doesn`t is crazy. It`s just like your job. You`re trying to get to different levels in your job, you have to get to different levels in your relationship. And takes work, and it`s beautiful when it happens, when it folds. But you have to make the effort.
And anyone who thinks, though, it`s going to be smooth-sailing and we won`t have to do anything is mistaken.
PINSKY: I`ve got to make an effort now by going to break. And later on, can you be married and dating? Believe it or not, I`m going to address that.
Next, more of our conversation, more of your calls.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: OK, we`re taking your calls about marriage, cheating, dating, sex and now we`re talking about clinging men.
What do you do if a man is too clingy, Amy?
ALKON: Well, it`s a sign he is insecure and it`s not the best man to be with because that will come out over and over again in your relationship.
PINSKY: Emily, how about that? Feeling safe in a relationship is what people complain to me most about. They do it different ways, they don`t say, I don`t feel safe, but really what they`re complaining about is I can`t feel safe in this relationship.
MORSE: I agree that it`s about their own insecurity. That they will not feel safe in any relationship. I mean, they might be with somebody who`s not affirming them, but people who are clingy in particular are people who have a direct insecurity and they`re never going to feel self- assured in a relationship unless they feel confident in themselves.
PINSKY: Quick call, Jessica in North Carolina -- Jessica.
JESSICA, CALLER FROM NORTH CAROLINA: Hi, Dr. Drew. How are you?
PINSKY: Good. How are you?
JESSICA: Good. I just want to say I`ve been sneaking watching you on "Loveline" since I was little, so this is an honor for me.
PINSKY: Well, the pleasure is mine. Thank you for calling.
JESSICA: You`re welcome.
Well, I`m 26 years old and I`ve been with my boyfriend for about eight years. We have an 18-month-old little girl that, as a child, I was abandoned pretty much by my parents. They were both will addicts so I was alone all the time.
PINSKY: OK.
JESSICA: Well, now, I fear into our relationship. My boyfriend has never cheated. He`s never given me a reason to think that, but I can`t -- I mean, I can`t let that go. I`m always asking him where he`s going, even if he`s just going to the bathroom.
PINSKY: OK. Siggy, this is common. This is back to that, I don`t feel safe with a particular focus on I expect people to abandon me.
I would say, Siggy, that Jessica`s biggest risk, because she sounds like she has a good guy here, is that she`s going to leave him.
FLICKER: Yes. No, or she`s going to lose him because no man wants an insecure woman and no woman wants an insecure man. What happened in your past, Jessica, is very sad and I feel for you. But you have to leave the past and you can`t let it affect this healthy relationship you`re in. You can`t always assume he`s out there doing something bad when he`s not because eventually he`ll get sick and tired and look for love elsewhere.
PINSKY: And I would say, you know, listen, if you can`t -- if you can`t deal with those abandonment issues, please get therapy.
Amy, last words.
ALKON: I would say, men really need to know they`re appreciated. You need to treat him like he`s behaving. You need to give him credit for the guy he is. Very, very important.
PINSKY: Emily, I`ve just enough time for you to ring in here. Go ahead.
MORSE: Yes, no, it`s not about him. It`s about her. I say therapy, go to therapy, do not pass "go" and commit to therapy for a while to get -- to move past these issues from your past.
PINSKY: I`ve got to say you guys are a great trio. I hope to have you back again. Siggy, excellent job. Emily, excellent job. My director, Dave, wants your phone number, I believe. Amy, thanks so much for joining us.
Oh, suddenly the camera jumped there. I think I gave Dave a coronary, a stroke, or something. But, OK, thank you. It`s interesting conversation. Lots of calls still coming in. We`ll try to respond to some of it online perhaps.
Next up, would you share your spouse, your home and your bed with another lover or lovers. I`m talking to couples who do exactly that. Two couples, check it out, we`ll talk to them after the break.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re telling each other everything, not just who we sleep with but who we`re interested in.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Because I get to have sex with whoever I want, I actually don`t have to fantasize. My fantasies are coming true.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY (voice-over): It`s been called shocking, titillating, and cringe-inducing. It is Showtime`s new series "Polyamory: Married and Dating." And it`s all about couples that seek relationships with other lovers, so called.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I want people to know it`s OK to live a life this way. It can be good, because it is. It`s beautiful. We love it.
PINSKY: Michael and Kamala (ph) have been married for 10 years. They share their home and bedroom with another married couple, Jen and Tom.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Basically, the definition is just loving more than one person.
PINSKY: How do they make it work inside their home?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The biggest question I get is, don`t you ever get jealous will? It`s like, yes, I`m human!
PINSKY: And outside.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m not out to my parents yet. I know we`ve talked about it, but I think it`s time -- I think I want to tell them.
PINSKY: And what do they tell their critics?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Monogamy destroys families.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: Joining me now are four of the stars of Showtime`s "Polyamory: Married & Dating." Kamala Devi and Michael have been married 10 years. Jen and Tahl are live-in lovers, let`s call them, right? No. You live-in lovers for these two and Jen and Tahl have been married for eight years. Like I said, I would need some sort of a diagram or board (ph).
I`m also joined by my "Loveline" co-host, Simone Bienne. She is listening in. There she is. And I`m going to get her take a little later on. So, listen carefully, Simone. We`ll see what your thoughts are in all this. OK. Tahl, you`re on the record as saying monogamy destroys families. How?
TAHL, HE & WIFE ARE LOVERS WITH COUPLE: Well, in my experience, a lot of relationships will come to an end or they`ll fail if one of the couple fall in love with another person.
PINSKY: Cheating.
TAHL: Well -- so what monogamy actually says is you can either cheat, lie, you know, to the person you`re still in love with, perhaps, one of the parents of your children, or it says you can get a divorce, leave the person that you still may very well be in love with, disrupt your family.
And, so, what I`m saying -- what we`re saying is that polyamory provides another option where we can bring love into the family, you can keep the family dynamics, and not have to disrupt it.
PINSKY: OK. I`ve got a million questions for you guys.
(LAUGHTER)
PINSKY: So, I like the show "Big Love." I thought that was a realistic portrayal of how people would have to navigate through -- because when you have one or two people in a relationship, that`s tough enough. You`d bring two more people in, and all kinds of dynamics enter into it. Was that realistic, that show, or no?
KAMALA, SHE & HUSBAND ARE LOVERS WITH COUPLE: I thought it was wonderful show that open people`s minds to more -- you know, beyond monogamy and navigating a relationship like this --
PINSKY: It`s hard.
KAMALA: -- it takes a lot of work.
PINSKY: Do you guys fight?
KAMALA: Yes. There`s challenges.
PINSKY: OK. Give me an example of a challenge.
KAMALA: Well, we -- they just moved in, and one of the big challenges is that Jen really likes to sleep with her husband when she`s ready to go to bed. She wants him to go to bed as well.
PINSKY: That sounds pretty normal.
KAMALA: It does. And Tahl is a night person, and I`m a night person and we`re hot lovers who want to sometimes stay up late at night.
PINSKY: So, Jen -- that would be -- would feel awful. You`re alone in bed at night knowing your husband is having sex with this?
JEN, SHE & HUSBAND ARE LOVERS WITH COUPLE: One of our agreements is that he does come and sleep with me at night. That was one of the agreements to moving into the house.
PINSKY: And you allow that?
KAMALA: I absolutely. I love Jen and want to support her in doing that. It`s a negotiation that we have to make.
PINSKY: And Tahl, in that tape, you said you haven`t come out to your parents. Is this something you come out about? Are you -- I don`t understand. I`m confused.
TAHL: Right. Well, actually, I did come out to my parents on the last episode.
PINSKY: As polyamorous.
(CROSSTALK)
TAHL: So, my parents, you know, know that Jennifer and I are married, that we love each other.
PINSKY: How did they take that?
TAHL: How did they take the --
PINSKY: Your family, yes.
TAHL: You know, my parents don`t agree with my lifestyle. They`re very conservative, and they have very conservative ideas.
PINSKY: Are they super conservative? Are you rebelling against some of that conservativism?
TAHL: No, I don`t think I`m rebelling against that conservative -- how conservative my parents are, but, you know, it works for me. I`m in love with Jennifer. I`m deeply in love with Michael and Kamala Devi (ph).
PINSKY: And Michael, is there male/male, female/female love going on?
KAMALA: You`re going to have to watch --
(CROSSTALK)
(LAUGHTER)
PINSKY: Let`s get some calls. Let`s go to Nansi in California. Nansi, you got something for us?
NANSI IN CALIFORNIA: Hi. How are you? I have a quick question. Knowing that I have kids, how do you explain that to your kids that you have two couples that are with you as a relationship to your son? I know that the couple has a child with them, correct?
KAMALA: Absolutely. I have a five-year-old. And, I think it`s very important to be open and share -- and be honest with my child. But it`s not -- we are about family. We`re actually more committed adult attention to our child is what we feel is really healthy.
And polyamory is all that my son`s ever known. So, it`s not a coming out to him. It`s more like he`ll have to learn someday what monogamy is all about.
PINSKY: What if he has a sister or brother that`s not genetically the same? You know what I`m saying? Are you practicing birth control or --
KAMALA: Well, we`re very conscious with our family planning and we`re happy with one child right now.
PINSKY: OK.
KAMALA: And -- but in either case, people are really concerned about how`s your son going to handle it? And when you look at it, children have to adapt to divorce and losing one parent. Of course, they can enjoy having more parents now due to more love.
PINSKY: Let`s go to another Nancy. She is in Florida. Nancy, what do you want to say? Nancy in Florida.
NANCY, FLORIDA: I`m sorry.
PINSKY: There you.
NANCY: Yes. When I got divorced my husband, you know, he left me for another woman. And I met this man and we had relations and we lived together for five years, and he wanted me to be with other people, come to find out he was bisexual. That`s why he wanted me, you know, with other people.
PINSKY: But that`s a little different. We`re talking -- I think she`s talking about cup (ph) holding there where that`s a very different -- this is no way relates to those kinds --
KAMALA: We`re completely consensual adults.
PINSKY: But do you like seeing each other? Do you watch one another with one another kind of thing?
(CROSSTALK)
TAHL: Yes, I love it. I love to see my wife enjoying --
PINSKY: And are you all together, together at times?
JEN: Sometimes. Sometimes, we are. Sometimes, it`s separate. We make separate dates with each other.
PINSKY: It feels funny to hear you talk about it. It feels --
(LAUGHTER)
PINSKY: Well, but I mean -- I don`t mean funny ha ha. I mean, like funny like it would hurt.
JEN: It`s a new world view.
PINSKY: But no, no. My feeling is feelings, you know, don`t make sense (ph). Michael, you haven`t had -- do you know what feeling I`m talking about? Like --
MICHAEL, HE & WIFE ARE LOVERS WITH COUPLE: The feeling that you`re experiencing is, you know, tied together with jealousy. We all have --
PINSKY: It is tied with jealousy.
MICHAEL: We all have those jealousies and we get that. We`ve kind of worked through those jealousies. I`ve been polyamorous for about 15 years. And, you know, it`s interesting that being with -- in the beginning, there is a lot of jealousy, but we communicate about it so much.
PINSKY: So, what motivated you to push through that jealousy? Why? I mean, why not listen to your feelings, maybe that`s not right for me?
KAMALA: There`s this fantastic new experience called compersion (ph).
(LAUGHTER)
KAMALA: I get to educate you with vocabulary, too. It`s the opposite of jealousy so that when Michael is with Jen, instead of feeling left out or hurt, I feel, wow, my lover is having more pleasure and that`s beautiful and I feel excitement about his --
PINSKY: Your eyes belie ambivalence, though. They do.
(LAUGHTER)
JEN: I have to say that probably out of all four of us, I`m the most jealous.
PINSKY: OK. Thank you. Go ahead with that.
JEN: You know, and I really don`t want to let my decisions be made out of insecurity and fear, you know?
PINSKY: Let`s put it this way. It works for you, and there`s so much more you get from it that you`re willing to tolerate the jealousy.
JEN: I don`t want to say tolerate, because I don`t tolerate it. It comes up. We communicate. I work through it. In the end, I feel like I`m better for that. Yes.
PINSKY: OK. I`m going to bring Simone into this conversation after the break. We`re going to take more of your calls about our polyamorous couples and try to get our heads around this after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: I am back with Kamala Devi (ph) and Michael and Jen and Tahl. They all live together, sleep together, and star together in show time`s new reality series "Polyamory: Married and Dating." My "Loveline" co-host, Simone Bienne, has been listening to our conversation in an isolated booth. Simone, what are your thoughts?
SIMONE BIENNE, DR. DREW`S "LOVELINE" CO-HOST: Having it all is a slogan that proved to be dead back in the 1990s, and I have got to say, these are gorgeous couples and fair respect to them for making this work for now. I speak from having clinically worked with many polyamorous couples, and my experience is twofold.
Number one, they come to me, because they have a feeling that actually they`ve been working with two unsatisfactory relationships instead of one. And, secondly, there have been factors that drive them to having the polyamorous relationship so that they almost feel it`s too dangerous to put love into just one person, because when we do that, that is what makes us super vulnerable.
So, it`s kind of like having this security blanket. And, for them, it has been experiences in childhood where they`ve lost a parent and they find it really difficult to process or their parents are split up. So, if it works, great. For now. My experience is that it can lead to an awful lot of heartache. And when there are kids involved, I think, ay-ay-ay!
PINSKY: Jen, what do you say to that? You were listening very carefully having a little bit of a reaction. Go ahead.
JEN: I think the part I reacted to is her saying it works for now. We know we`ve gone into this very consciously. Tahl and I have talked about it for a long time, and it is working for now. But there are also marriages that even if they`re not polyamorous are just working for now. We have a lot of communication going on, and we honor each other`s feelings.
PINSKY: Kamala Devi (ph).
KAMALA: I respect what Simone is saying, and I`m a sex and relationship coach who works with a lot of people and it`s not an easy path, and it does not work for everybody. But I will say that I`ve been doing it for 15 years, never had role models. So, I didn`t know how it was done. It`s such an honor now to actually get to share, here`s what makes it work and here`s what`s working for us.
PINSKY: OK. Callers, David in California -- David.
DAVID, CALIFORNIA: Hi there, Dr. Drew. You know what? This is more desensitivity and more demoralization for children to view and witness today. That`s why a lot of our children are desensitized. They`re getting demoralized, because there`s more and more shows and things like this that are causing this kind of thinking.
PINSKY: David, hold on.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Do you have kids yourself?
DAVID: Yes, I do.
PINSKY: Do you watch the programming with kids? Do you process it with them?
DAVID: I tried to -- he`s not allowed to watch "Family Guy," OK? I mean, you know, it`s women messing with -- I know it`s cartoons, but at seven o`clock in the evening watching a human girl and a dog have sexual encounters.
PINSKY: How old is your son?
DAVID: He`s 13.
PINSKY: Thirteen. OK. So, what do you say to David? Go ahead, Michael.
MICHAEL: You know, this -- our show -- David, our show is adult programming. It`s definitely not for kids. This is -- it`s a late-night show. It`s a showtime show.
PINSKY: Address this issue of it`s sort of desensitizing our culture.
MICHAEL: You know, really what we`re about is, you know, exposing our culture to this subculture that we live in. We`re really about honesty.
PINSKY: I have a question. Whenever I talk to polyamorous people, they`re very defensive. Why? You guys aren`t. You guys aren`t. But often I find that, they`re, like, don`t judge. I`m not judging. I`m interested.
MICHAEL: Because a lot of people do judge. You know, I think that, you know, David is, perhaps, putting a little bit of judgment in about --
PINSKY: He`s putting it in context of kids and stuff and you agree with him.
KAMALA: We`re the silent minority. Most people practice this in secrecy so we`re really misunderstood. And I`m really thrilled that you brought us onto your show to kind of educate people. I mean, that`s basically the defensiveness is because people don`t -- they need education.
MICHAEL: Our show does have sexuality in it. And because of that, it is an adult show. Even if our show didn`t have sexuality in it, it would be something that`s educational for people. You know, I don`t think it`s desensitizing -- we`re a committed family unit. We`re building family. We`re actually growing family. And, you know, we`re about honesty.
PINSKY: Sounds like that show "Big Love." Carol in Michigan. Got to go to carol real quick -- Carol.
CAROL, MICHIGAN: Yes.
PINSKY: Go ahead.
CAROL: Me myself, I don`t believe in that kind of a relationship. I believe in just one man and one woman thing because I did have a boyfriend who believed in more than one woman and everything. And when I found out that his other partner happened to have been a prostitute and everything, that I finally kicked his backside to the curb, because, you know, who knew what kind of diseases that she was carrying and everything? And hopefully --
PINSKY: Tahl has got something to say.
TAHL: One of the things that we`re really trying to show in our show is good communication, and that`s for all relationships. If you`re in a relationship with someone --
PINSKY: You talked about cheating. You talked about lying and cheating being (ph) deceitful.
TAHL: Sounds like there was some openness here, but the communication wasn`t good enough that you knew who he was sleeping with. You know, there`s transparency here, and we`re very clear that everyone is informed about everything.
JEN: About everything.
KAMALA: Yes. We wouldn`t date somebody who is married and their husband didn`t know.
PINSKY: OK. Oh, do you date other people, too? More people come into this group. OK. Hold on. We`re going to hear more about that -- and hear about that. And Simone, I want you to hold your tongue. I`m going to go to you as soon as we get back from break.
But first, it`s time for "our country votes."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: All right. Conventions are almost upon us, and maybe even a hurricane in one case with the convention. Candidates have already been decided. Do you know who you`ll be voting for now or are you keeping an open mind until November?
Jack on Facebook writes, "I am 62 and voted in May elections. This is the first election, but I have to say I don`t like either candidate." Well, Jack, you have less than three months to decide. I guess you could be a conscientious objector, but I do suggest everyone participate in the process. It really is something that we`re obliged to do. It`s how the system works.
All right. Back with our guests after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: Tonight, we are talking about polyamory. I`m with two couples who fell in love with each other. Today, they live and sleep with one another, and evidently, before the break, you told me there are even more that are included in this little core group. Tell me about that.
KAMALA: Sure. I`m bisexual, and you know, we`ve been lovers with Jen and Tahl for over two years now, and I have a girlfriend as well, have had for over a year.
PINSKY: You`re OK with that? A girlfriend. How about (ph) if she had a boyfriend?
(LAUGHTER)
MICHAEL: I`m OK with that, too. There was a time that she actually - - when we first started our relationship, we actually did have a rule that she could be with women but not men, because I was afraid I`d be very jealous about it. And then, she met this guy who was, you know, really a great guy, was like a brother to me, and it was interesting.
I didn`t have jealousy. I expected it, and I didn`t have jealousy, and I actually encouraged them to make love.
PINSKY: How many people are in this universe?
KAMALA: Well, we --
JEN: Actually, I have a boy friend that I`ve been dating for --
PINSKY: How many people? It keeps getting bigger and bigger --
(CROSSTALK)
JEN: The four of them, we live -- all live together, the four of us, I should say, and then I have a boyfriend who I`ve been seeing, you know, regularly for about 5 1/2 --
PINSKY: You haven`t answered my question.
KAMALA: It`s about ten of us.
PINSKY: Ten. There are 10. There are six more. There are six more.
JEN: Yes.
PINSKY: And are they all cool, these other six people --
KAMALA: Absolutely.
PINSKY: Because they could get hurt, too, in this right?
KAMALA: Right.
PINSKY: Simone, what are we going to do with all this? I`ll tell you what, the one concern I have is although it`s working for these guys, as you and I both know, we deal with lot of people who have pathologies and act out like this, might this be a model? This was my thought during the break?
Might this be a model that works for these guys but becomes a model that gets deployed on behalf of pathology in other settings?
BIENNE: Yes. you know, it is difficult not to sit in that pathology space when we have two lovely couples sitting before you who, by the way, I`ve got to say, how organized are they? And to be able to think, oh, I`ll be able to, you know, have John in my bed tonight. All your viewers at home are thinking right now, wow, I wish I had their brain space organizing skills check list.
PINSKY: I`m more worried, Simone, about their body fluids and how they maintain those. I mean, my goodness.
BIENNE: Their skin looks amazing they`re having so much sex.
(LAUGHTER)
BIENNE: But let me answer your question, Dr. Drew, which is, in any relationship, we know we are drawn to the relationship that makes us feel safe, that is familiar, that fits. And of course, there can be an acting out of pathology.
It can be in the sense of, you can be looking to have multi lovers so that you spread yourself so thinly you protect yourself like that or you could be, you know, acting out some sexual trauma from the past. Clearly isn`t the case with you guys. We understand that. But, it is something to be mindful.
This isn`t the answer, and it`s what Dr. Drew, I`ve got to say, because we`re both monogamous. I`ve got to say Dr. Drew says this wonderful thing, which is, this free love thing is lovely, on paper. Like communism, it doesn`t work in reality, or for the most part, it doesn`t work in reality.
PINSKY: More of this after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: We are continuing our conversation about polyamory. And I have a question for all of you guys. Who wants to answer it? But do you imagine being together, the four of you, forever, for the rest of your lives?
KAMALA: Well, the kind of bonds we have --
PINSKY: You talk about this?
KAMALA: Yes, of course.
MICHAEL: Of course.
JEN: I just -- I imagine us being in each other`s lives forever in some capacity. You know, we`re polyamorous. We don`t necessarily break up. We stay friends. You know, it may change a little bit. It may not.
PINSKY: But what if you leave and your five-year-old is deeply connected to Jen? Isn`t that going to be painful?
KAMALA: My five -- she will always be in the life of my five-year- old.
PINSKY: You`re committed to that.
JEN: I`m committed to this family, yes.
PINSKY: You know, it wasn`t what I heard you say a minute ago. You say a minute ago --
(CROSSTALK)
JEN: No. I said we will be in each other`s lives --
PINSKY: But being in each other`s lives is different than, I`m going to be Auntie Jen that he calls me and deeply involved in his life for good. Is that what you`re saying?
JEN: That`s my intention.
PINSKY: OK. Simone, do you have anything else? I agree with what you`re saying before the break about things that sound good intellectually, that make great sense on paper, but you and I deal with all the time in the clinical setting doesn`t always work out with the human being because we`re messier, we`re emotional. And this is like communism looks great on paper. It doesn`t always work out in real life.
BIENNE: I love you say messier because I`m thinking, how do you manage to live with so many people when we struggle with one?
(LAUGHTER)
BIENNE: Look, it works for this couple and I still stick with what I have seen and I know you, Dr. Drew, have seen as well, that this can be a very tricky situation. If you are very clear that you are not using this as a way to avoid intimacy and that deep relationship, then fair play to you.
For those people who are watching, yes, you have opened our minds, which is fabulous. At the same time, let`s not glamorize free love because for a lot of people whose communication skills aren`t so super hot, it can end in catastrophe.
PINSKY: Guys, thank you very much. One last comment?
KAMALA: Just to agree with Simone that if a relationship is having problems, that`s not the time to open it up. That we`re doing this because our relationships are so strong. We`re just overflowing with love.
PINSKY: Got to go. Kamala Levy -- Devi, rather, Michael, Jen, and Tahl, the finale for "Polyamory: Married and Dating" airs on Showtime Thursday night, 11:00 p.m. Thank you all for participating, watching, calling. And a reminder that Nancy Grace begins right now.
END
