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Nancy Grace
Pregnant Woman Pushes Husband Out Window to Death
Aired August 22, 2012 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, live, Tulsa. She marries her dream man. The happy couple moves into a new high-rise apartment and plan a family. Within months, that dream comes true when she learns she`s having a baby boy. But eyewitnesses say a shocking tragedy brings it all to a screeching halt.
Bombshell tonight. Witnesses say they see 23-year-old Josh Hilberling fall from the couple`s high-rise 25 stories to his death. But tonight, cops say it was no accident. There was no fall. His new bride pushed him to his death.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Amber Hilberling.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She allegedly pushed her husband out their 25th floor apartment window, sending him 17 stories down to his death.
911 OPERATOR: (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) fire department, and I just saw someone jump out their window out of the -- probably the 17th, 19th floor.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A 5-5 seven-months pregnant woman, and a 6-6 military-trained man. The facts just don`t add up.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Joshua and Amber Hilberling had a volatile relationship.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police say the couple was fighting and Amber pushed Josh and he fell through the window of their 25th floor apartment.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m looking right at -- (INAUDIBLE) I`m looking right at it (INAUDIBLE) the glass broke and he fell down.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The victim landed on top of a concrete parking garage.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police say his bags were packed like he was leaving.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police say it was the husband who filed for a protective order against his wife just weeks before his murder.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17th floor.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But now Hilberling is claiming it was all an accident, reportedly claiming Josh tripped over apartment furniture and fell out the window.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.
Bombshell tonight. Live to Tulsa. She marries her dream man. They move into a high-rise, plan a family. But that dream comes to a screeching halt when witnesses say a shocking tragedy occurred. They see 23-year-old Josh fall from the couple`s high-rise 25 stories to his death. But tonight, cops say there was no fall, there was no accident, that his new bride pushed him to his death, his painful death, I might add.
Joining me right now, out to Jean Casarez, legal correspondent, "In Session." Jean, they were newlyweds. They had only been married going on a year. She had just become pregnant. What happened?
JEAN CASAREZ, "IN SESSION": Nancy, what a gorgeous couple! They had everything to live for, and she is seven months pregnant. But he and -- his family is now saying that he was a product of abuse, that she was a domestic abuser against him and that she pushed him out of a 25th-story window and he plummeted and ended up dead on the top of a parking garage!
GRACE: Matt Zarrell, the facts are pretty much as Jean is telling us, but there`s so much more. The back and forth between this couple had been going on for some time. But the defense is saying that he, quote, "tripped."
MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER (via telephone): Yes, Nancy, you`re correct. Apparently, what the defense is saying is the defense is saying that he tripped over apartment furniture after the wife pushed him while he was attacking her.
But Nancy, the issue here is that a protective order was filed against the wife by the husband just weeks -- just weeks -- before he fell to his death.
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers, Jennifer Smetters, Chicago, Kirby Clements, Atlanta, Steve Perkel, New York.
OK, Kirby Clements, it`s very unusual to see the man file for a protective order, very unusual to see a man claim he is being abused. And when police got there after he falls 25 stories to his death, people in the apartment building say that they thought there was an earthquake because his body hit the top of the parking deck with such velocity, with such force, that they felt it inside the apartment building.
But she`s claiming that he, quote, "tripped." How come his bags were packed there at the door, that he had filed for protective orders against her in the past, and now suddenly, he trips and falls out a window to his death, Kirby?
KIRBY CLEMENTS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: And that absolutely makes perfect sense, Nancy. Several things. Number one, there is a history of violence between these two people...
GRACE: In what universe does that make perfect sense?
CLEMENTS: In this universe. She`s 5-5 and pregnant. He`s 6-6 and a military guy. Are we honestly going to say that she`s Hercules-like hurled this man through a window and he fell to his death? That makes no sense in the real universe where you and I are living right now, Nancy.
GRACE: To Dave Mack...
CLEMENTS: He clearly tripped.
GRACE: ... morning talk show host with WAAX. Nobody is claiming that this beautiful bride picked up her husband, known as a gentle giant, and hurled him through the window. But what cops are saying is that she pushed him through the window, Dave Mack.
DAVE MACK, CLEAR CHANNEL WAAX: That`s what we`ve got evidence is that she was into domestic violence. The fact that she`s 5-5 and he`s 6-5 or 6- 6 has no bearing on this. She was obviously the aggressor on multiple occasions where he had to file a restraining order.
Think about it this way, Nancy. Maybe she`s charging towards him, he`s backing up because he doesn`t want to hit her. He goes out the window because she shoves him out the window. That`s how he goes out there. Look at how he fell. He fell straight down. She was the aggressor time and again!
GRACE: To Steve Perkel, defense attorney joining me out of New York. Steve Perkel, what about the fact that she apparently has cuts on her wrists from pushing him through the window?
STEVE PERKEL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, we really don`t know what those cuts are from. They could have been from another altercation, from something else.
GRACE: Put him up!
PERKEL: I mean, they had a prior history, but you know, we don`t know right now...
GRACE: Hey, Steve Perkel...
PERKEL: ... really what happened. He`s a hulk of a man.
GRACE: Maybe little Zulu warriors snuck in the bathroom window and they did it! Woulda, coulda, shoulda! It doesn`t matter what you hypothesize. It matters what the evidence is! There were fresh cuts on her wrists. He went through the glass, Steve Perkel! You can add two and two to get four, right?
PERKEL: He went through the glass, Nancy, but we don`t know how he went through the glass. There was no one in that apartment and (ph) what occurred and what was discussed. There was no altercation. This guy is 6- 6, 220. We`re saying that this little woman pushed this man through a window and he fell to his demise? I find that hard to believe. It seemed like he did trip and fall.
GRACE: Well, hold on. Hold on. Jean Casarez, isn`t it true when police got there, they say there was no sign of any disturbance within the apartment. For instance, there was no furniture overturned. There was no indication he tripped and fell.
So -- also, according to the witness, he didn`t fall backwards. He didn`t fall backwards. That witness claims -- and pull up the 911 tape for me, Dana. The witness claims that he saw the victim, the groom, come through the window as if he were standing up, face out. Is that what he saw?
CASAREZ: That`s what we understand. And Nancy, they`re as close to an eyewitness as you could get. There was a man, Mr. Rosales (ph), who was repairing a window very, very close. And he saw this young bride. He said that she had bundled (ph) up anger when he saw her shortly after the victim fell to his death.
GRACE: And Jean, the guy was in there in the other room repairing another window. What does he say that he heard?
CASAREZ: He said he heard a loud crash, and then he saw him fall. And more than anything, he saw the alleged perpetrator, the wife, the pregnant wife, and that she was angry and that she had this demeanor of anger in her.
GRACE: Did he hear any kind of an argument beforehand? And why do we think that his suitcase was packed and sitting by the door, Jean Casarez?
CASAREZ: Yes, we heard. Yes, he said that he heard argument. He heard loud shouting. And it appears as though that he had gotten the courage to leave the marriage. You know, she seemed to have a history of pushing him. She pushed him once into the corner and had lacerations on his head that he had to get stitches. And then the protective order was based on her taking a lamp, pushing it onto his temple are of his head and telling him, I hope it hurts.
GRACE: All this -- all during this, Jean Casarez, she`s pregnant. They get married, try to start a family, and then their dream comes true. She announces she`s expecting a baby boy.
This occurs while she`s pregnant. A witness is outside smoking a cigarette and sees the young groom fall to his death from a high-rise apartment he`s sharing with his new bride.
Most people would say you don`t just fall out windows to your death. But the defense tonight is claiming that the groom tripped. This is after he has filed multiple temporary protective orders, multiple claims that she has been physically abusing him.
She`s pregnant. Take a look at this couple. It`s hard to take it all in. What do you think? What do you think happened?
Let`s see what we can learn from that witness`s 911 call. And remember, the witness called 911, not the bride.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
911 OPERATOR: Police department.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re at the Denver Park apartments, and I just saw someone jump out of their window, out of the -- probably the 17th, 19th floor of University Club tower apartments at 17th and Denver.
911 OPERATOR: 17th and Denver. The name of that place is University...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: University Club.
911 OPERATOR: This is (INAUDIBLE) We`re on the way.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right. I sitting out, smoking a cigarette, and here -- looking right at -- staring -- I`m looking right at it.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The glass broke and he fell down.
911 OPERATOR: Wow. 17th floor, huh? OK...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17th floor.
911 OPERATOR: OK. All right, sir. We got help on the way, then.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right, thank you, sir.
911 OPERATOR: You`re welcome.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
911 OPERATOR: police department.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just saw someone jump out of their window, out of the -- probably the 17th, 19th floor of University Club tower apartments.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Amber Hilberling, seven months pregnant when her husband, Josh, went out of a 25-story window to his death. She`s been charged with his murder.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The fatal fall broke both of Josh`s legs, six vertebrae, his sternum and his pelvis. Police say Josh`s wife, Amber Hilberling, pushed him out of the window. But now Hilberling is claiming it was all an accident.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A 5-5 seven-month pregnant woman and a 6-6 military-trained man -- the facts just don`t add up.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Who was the aggressor and who the victim?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Well, according to many people, the facts don`t add up. But how often do you stumble into a window with such velocity that you fall through the window? This young groom falls to his death 25 stories.
We are taking your calls. This newlywed couple have a lifetime ahead of them. Their dream comes true. She gets pregnant with a baby boy. But then tragedy.
I want to go back out to Dave Mack, morning talk show host, WAAX. The repairman in the next room, repairing the other window of the apartment -- he hears an argument going on between the bride and the groom. What does he hear?
MACK: He hears them arguing back and forth, and then he hears a crashing through the window. He hears all of this next door.
GRACE: You know what? I think that summarizes it all. How does a secretly recorded conversation play into this?
Joining me right now from LA, Leslie Seppinni, clinical psychologist and author. Dr. Leslie, what do you make of his claims that she had been abusing him? That`s very unusual. Now he`s dead.
LESLIE SEPPINNI, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST (via telephone): You know, it`s interesting. It`s actually not as uncommon as we think. Men often do not report because of shame and embarrassment. And the other part of that is if they were to hit the woman back, it would be considered hitting a woman with a deadly weapon, especially if the guy is trained to kill or harm somebody because he`s in the service. And so this guy probably figured he had no other way out. And the fact that his bags were packed shows that he was the one leaving and she was the aggressor.
GRACE: And as we know with battered women`s syndrome, the cycle is the aggression accelerates when the woman tries to leave. Here we have the man trying to leave what he claims is an abusive relationship.
Dwanna in Texas. Hi, Dwanna. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. My daughter and I love you and we watch you every night. I just wondered if actually they heard yelling or hollering or screaming or anything before the accident or the shove took place.
GRACE: They did. The repairman, the apartment window repairman was in the room next door. Take a look at that. You can tell where the repairman was. He was in, I believe, the window to the right.
Back out to you Matt Zarrell. What exactly did the repairman hear?
ZARRELL: What he said is he hear a loud crash, the sound of broken glass and yelling and a commotion that sounded like rapid movements. Now, he was, you`re right, Nancy, in a different window. He was in the bedroom. This attack happened in the living room.
Now, what the repairman says is he next saw the wife in the apartment. She`s very upset. She says her husband fell out the window.
GRACE: She says at that point her husband fell out the window. To Matt Zarrell. How does a secretly recorded phone conversation play into this? And could you tell me who was in that conversation? That`s my question. Who was in the conversation, and how was the conversation caught on tape?
ZARRELL: It was the wife and her grandmother, and it was at an interview room at the police station.
GRACE: Out to the lines. Millie in Florida. Hi, Millie. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. I would like to know, did she finally admit that she threw him out the window?
GRACE: Millie in Florida, she has made so many different statements.
Let`s talk about that secretly recorded phone conversation. So police are trying to find out more, is that right, Matt Zarrell, and they take her to the police station, right?
ZARRELL: Yes, they do, with her grandmother.
GRACE: So how does the grandmother get on the scene, Matt?
ZARRELL: The wife is actually still at the apartment after the fall, waiting for the grandmother to arrive before going with her to the police station with the cops.
GRACE: OK, so they put the wife, the bride, and her grandmother in a room together, right?
ZARRELL: Correct.
GRACE: All right, how do they end up tape recording them? Did they know they were being taped?
ZARRELL: The officers have said that they never told either of the women that they were in private or that they were not being recorded.
GRACE: So they don`t tell them they either are being recorded or not being recorded, and they`re in an interview room, right?
ZARRELL: Yes.
GRACE: All right. So the bride and her grandmother are in an interview room at police headquarters. They think they`re alone. And they start talking, right?
ZARRELL: Correct.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A pregnant newlywed wife is now facing charges after she allegedly pushed her husband out their 25th-floor apartment window, sending him 17 stories down to his death.
911 OPERATOR: Wow. 17th floor, huh? OK...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: 1, 2 -- 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17th floor.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police reports depict a troubled relationship.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The husband filed for a protective order against his wife just weeks before his murder, saying she was attacking him. And the husband said in multiple incidents where Hilberling was the physical aggressor.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Well, the defense attorneys are arguing violently with me about this, but police say that this groom did not fall to his death, that he was not -- it was a product of an accident, that he didn`t trip and fall through a closed window with such velocity, that he went through the window to his death.
We are taking your calls. Out to Jason. Hi, Jason. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi, Nancy. How are you?
GRACE: I`m good, dear.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s good. Nice talking with you again.
GRACE: Likewise.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, I just have a quick question. I wanted to know if she was after life insurance.
GRACE: Life insurance? Haven`t heard that theory. Dave Mack, do we know anything about life insurance?
MACK: No, that hasn`t been brought up to my knowledge, Nancy. This is just -- this is just a continuation of, apparently, their relationship.
GRACE: You know what? We cannot ignore the pattern. OK, so right now, we don`t know anything about life insurance. But what we do know is there was a secretly recorded conversation. And right now, attorneys are trying to get that squashed, suppressed so nobody ever hears it. But I`d like to find out what was on that secretly recorded phone conversation.
To Roberta in West Virginia. Hi, Roberta. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just wondered if he had possibly a lot of personal money that maybe she was trying to get her hands on possibly.
GRACE: OK, let`s keep Roberta with us. Matt Zarrell, do we know anything about him having money?
ZARRELL: Well, no, Nancy. Actually, he had just gotten out of the Air Force. He was actually about to go back to college to go to nursing school. So we don`t believe that there was a lot of money that would have been changing hands here.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Amber Hilberling.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She allegedly pushed her husband out their 25th floor apartment window, sending him 17 stories down to his death.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m in the Denver Park Apartments and I just saw someone jump out of their window, out of the -- probably the 17th, 19th floor.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A 5-5 seven-month pregnant woman and a 6-6 military-trained man -- the facts just don`t add up.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Joshua and Amber Hilberling had a volatile relationship.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police say the couple was fighting and Amber pushed Josh and he fell through the window of their 25th-floor apartment.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Looking right at -- staring -- I`m looking right at it. (INAUDIBLE) he -- the glass broke and he fell down.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The victim landed on top of a concrete parking garage.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police say his bags were packed like he was leaving.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police say it was the husband who filed for a protective order against his wife just weeks before his murder.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17th floor.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But now Hilberling is claiming it was all an accident, reportedly claiming Josh tripped over apartment furniture and fell out the window.
911 OPERATOR: Police department.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re at the Denver Park apartments, and I just saw someone jump out of their window, out of the -- probably the 17th, 19th floor of University Club tower apartments at 17th and Denver.
911 OPERATOR: 17th and Denver. The name of that place is University...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: University Club.
911 OPERATOR: This is (INAUDIBLE) We`re on the way.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right. I sitting out, smoking a cigarette, and here -- looking right at -- staring -- I`m looking right at it.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The glass broke and he fell down.
911 OPERATOR: Wow. 17th floor, huh? OK...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17th floor.
911 OPERATOR: OK. All right, sir. We got help on the way, then.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right, thank you, sir.
911 OPERATOR: You`re welcome.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: But police say that this new groom didn`t have an accident, trip and fall to his death, that he was pushed by none other than his bride. His bride who after nearly a year of marriage announces their dream has come true. She`s expecting a baby boy.
Back to you, Matt Zarrell, can we finally get right down to it? What was on that secretly recorded call between the bride and her grandmother while they`re in an interview room at the police station?
MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE STAFFER, COVERING STORY: OK. During this conversation it`s revealed that she admits pushing Josh out of the window, and apparently, Nancy, she has admitted this to not only on the secretly recorded tape, but when she spoke to firefighters and police on the scene. She also made sure to mention that she didn`t want to go to jail.
GRACE: OK, wait a minute. Whoa, whoa, Dave Mack. So while she`s at the police station, she not only admits to her grandmother she pushed him, but she`s worried about whether she`s going to go to jail?
DAVE MACK, MORNING TALK SHOW HOST, CLEAR CHANNEL WAAX RADIO: Actually --
GRACE: Her new husband is lying dead and she`s worried about, gee, I don`t want to go jail?
MACK: Even worse than that, they`re on the parking deck structure with the fireman. She rolls Josh`s body over, and that`s when -- she tells that to the guy from the fire department, yes, that she -- doesn`t want to go to jail, it`s crazy from the get-go, Nancy.
GRACE: Let`s go through her statements, but I want to also take a look at the injuries he sustained, Matt Zarrell. What were his injuries?
ZARRELL: OK. The medical examiner said the cause of death, multiple blunt force trauma injuries. Both of his legs were broken. Six vertebrae fractured, multiple broken ribs, his sternum and pelvis were also broken, he had numerous cuts and bruises and injuries to internal organs.
And one thing, Nancy, I wanted to note, his toxicology report was clean, no drugs, no alcohol.
GRACE: What about Miss Thing`s?
ZARRELL: We`re still trying to determine if they tested her when the incident occurred and what she may have tested out. We don`t know if there was a test taken.
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers. Jennifer Smetters, Kirby Clements and Steve Perkel.
All right, Perkel and Clements. Weigh in, Smetters.
JENNIFER SMETTERS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: All right. What we have here is classic and we cannot hide behind the fact that it is a gender reversal from what maybe we`re used to hearing. Bottom line is this woman had a propensity to cause harm to her husband. And if she is not going to fight back as a victim of domestic violence, he is going to stand there and take it or try and divert a way from her violence.
And what we have here is pure indication of also her own guilt. Her sense of responsibility, her utterance, her excited utterance right after this act happened is I don`t want to go to jail, to me that`s why she felt responsible for pushing him out of the window. And size, age, gender doesn`t discriminate a domestic violence. And a man, sometimes finds it very difficult to go forward and get a permanent order of protection. I`ve seen it in my own practice.
GRACE: Kirby Clements, Steve Perkel, now you learn what was on that secretly recorded conversation between the bride and her grandmother.
All right, Kirby Clements, what were you saying about? She wouldn`t push him, he`s too big, she`s too little, he`s just out of the Army, and she`s expecting? What were you saying?
KIRBY CLEMENTS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No, and I still stand by that, and I`ll tell you why. She did not push him out of the window in the context as I was indicating before. Threw him out of the window. It sounds to me like she pushed him, he tripped, she felt responsible but feeling responsible and being legally responsible are two separate things.
This was an accident just like they said. In fact one of the other windows was being repaired because these windows were defective in their installation as well. So I still maintain that she pushed, he tripped, her intent was not to murder, her intent was not to kill, it may have been to push him, he tripped, he fell out of the window. That`s what she --
GRACE: OK.
CLEMENTS: She was there. And that`s what happened.
GRACE: Let me get this straight.
So Perkel, you and Clements are going from she didn`t do it, she didn`t do it, she`s a pregnant bride, blah, blah, blah, he`s bigger than her. Now it`s -- your story has changed, your second verse not the same as the first. Your second verse is, it was an accident, she pushed him, he tripped and there was a defective window? Did I hear defective window in there, Steve Perkel?
STEVE PERKEL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It could be, Nancy. I mean, you know, when you say you`re sorry to someone, it doesn`t mean that you`re the person that did any harm to the person. You know, she could have been attacked by this large man and they did have an altercation. And he may fell through the -- fell through the window, but that does not mean -- excuse me. It does not mean that she was the one that pushed him through the window.
GRACE: OK, I guess her words saying, I pushed him through the window, don`t matter to you two.
To Dr. Michelle Dupre, medical examiner, forensic pathologist joining us out of Columbia. Prosecutors say the cuts on Hilberling`s wrist could have come from the glass from the window. Can that be verified forensically, Doctor?
DR. MICHELLE DUPRE, M.D., MEDICAL EXAMINER AND FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Yes, Nancy. Perhaps we can. For example, we would want to look at the angle of those cuts and exactly where were they on the wrist. There may also be some minute pieces of glass in those wounds.
GRACE: Now let me get this straight. Matt Zarrell, the cuts were on her wrists, correct?
ZARRELL: Yes, correct.
GRACE: Dr. Michelle Dupre, I don`t see that there`s any way she could have gotten cuts on her wrists if she hadn`t pushed him through directly through the window.
DUPRE: Nancy, I totally agree with you. I think that would be hard to imagine. There should also be some blood on the actual glass and the window itself.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: A 5`5", seven-month pregnant woman, and a 6`6", military trained man, the facts just don`t add up. We know 100 percent that the windows are illegal in that building and they are not up to code which I`ve dealt at from day one.
Well, what about the truth? You know, what about the truth in all this?
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: What most people know about Amber Hilberling is what they`ve seen on the news that she was seven months pregnant when her husband Josh went out a 25-story window to his death. She`s been charged with his murder and has since given birth to a son.
Prosecutors call the string of witnesses who say Amber said that day she killed him and was sorry. Wanda says of course her daughter feels guilty but not because she murdered Josh but because he died during an argument and she never dreamed he could go through a high-rise window. Amber tells officers, "Too much stress is causing Joshua and I to lose control too often. I personally think it is in both of our best interests including the unborn child for us to separate and work on things from a distance."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police department.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re at the Denver Park apartments, and I just saw someone jump out of their window, out of the -- probably the 17th, 19th floor of the University Club Tower apartments at 17th and Denver.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: 17th and Denver, the name of that place is University --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: University Club.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is M-7. We`re on the way.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right. I was sitting out smoking a cigarette here, looking right at -- staring at him, looking right at it. The glass broke --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Did the bride push her groom to his death 25 stories? We`re now learning of a secretly recorded conversation between the bride and her grandmother in which she admits she pushed him, but still defense attorneys say he tripped.
We are taking your calls. With me, Steve Moore, a former fed with the FBI, author of "Special Agent Man."
Steve, thanks for being with us. How are police going to determine cold-blooded murder, murder, homicide, or accident?
STEVE MOORE, FORMER FBI AGENT, INVESTIGATOR, AUTHOR OF "SPECIAL AGENT MAN": Well, they`re going to -- they`re going to look at the physical evidence on the body. When somebody falls out of a window, unless they swan-dive through, they`re going to have cuts where the body pivoted on the bottom of the window. Where the cuts are on the victim`s body is going to tell -- is going to tell them how close he was to the window when he went over.
It makes almost no sense that he tripped because the thing he tripped on would have had to have been within a foot of the wall. So -- and so to be walking towards the wall at a 90-degree angle or the window makes no sense.
GRACE: Well, another thing regarding what Dr. Dupre said regarding the glass on the window, if it was saved, and put into property, you should be able to look at the glass to determine where her hands were cut on it, a lot could be determined from those angles and what the witness says in the next room, very, very important.
Also, you know, when they had the earlier hearing on one of the TPOs, neither one of them showed up in court, including him. There are other claims that he was the aggressor on certain occasions.
And back to you, Matt Zarrell, I understand there have been a lot of other incidents on which police were called, complaints were made in the marriage, I want to hear about that, and I want to -- also want to hear her, the bride`s statement to detectives. Quote -- listen to this defense lawyers -- "I killed Josh."
ZARRELL: OK, Nancy, let me tell you about the details of domestic violence. In January the wife tells officers that during a fight, Josh knocked a drink and plate out of her hand. She slaps him in the face and then Josh squeezes her breast so hard it broke blood vessels.
In March, the wife called a friend to show a red mark on her leg. Josh tells the cops that the wife kicked the remote so he smacked her leg. Then literally a week or two later, the wife says during an argument he threw her phone at a wall and broke it. She actually told the police that too much stress is causing Josh and I to lose control too often, I think it`s in both of our best interest and the unborn child`s best interest for us to separate and work on things from a distance.
And the cops say that it depends on which family you talk to depends on who the aggressive one really is.
GRACE: OK. I`m going to ask you a yes-no question. Did she say to detectives, quote, "I killed Josh," end quote?
ZARRELL: Yes.
GRACE: Next, let me ask you this. Did she test positive for pot?
ZARRELL: Don`t know.
GRACE: Did she test positive for an agent found in pot, Matt Zarrell?
ZARRELL: She did, actually, Nancy, she did. She did when she was out -- when she was released from jail, they -- one of the conditions was that she had to go to urinalysis, she actually failed. She was tested positive for THC, which is the ingredient in marijuana. She was actually sent back to jail, she`s being held on no bond but she continues to violate the terms of the bond.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Well, THC, Matt, you don`t find that in corn flakes.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just saw someone jump out of their window, out of the -- probably the 17th, 19th floor of the University Club Tower apartments at 17th and Denver.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Police reports given to us by Hilberling`s attorney from Alaska where Josh was stationed earlier this year depict a troubled relationship. On January 2nd, Amber tells officers during a fight over whether to eat out or cook, that Josh knocked her drink and plate out of her hands, she slapped him in the face. And then he squeezed her breast so hard it broke blood vessels.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: 17th and Denver. The name of that place is University --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: University Club.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is M-7. We`re on the way.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: On January 31st, Josh told police he threw a candle holder at the wall and Amber hit him, his head hit the wall and he began bleeding.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m looking right at it. Staring -- I`m looking right at it. The glass broke and he fell down.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: On March 14th, Amber calls a friend to show her a red mark on her leg. Josh tells police that Amber kicked the remote so he smacked her leg. And on March 23rd, she says during an argument, he threw her phone at a wall and broke it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Seventeenth floor.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Within three months of that, though, he was out of the military, they were back in Tulsa and he was dead. Amber`s mother says his death is terrible, but also terrible she believes is that everyone assumes her daughter is guilty without knowing all the facts.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Valerie in California. Hi, Valeria, what`s your question?
VALERIE, CALLER FROM CALIFORNIA: Hi. I just wanted to know, did they find any furniture that my have been knocked over or disheveled that would show that either there was a struggle and he may have just been accidentally pushed out the window or is he in fact did trip over something, and just fell and, you know, with the force have fallen through the window?
GRACE: Valerie in California, I think police did investigate that.
To Matt Zarrell, question. This is another yes-no. Was furniture disturbed in that apartment when police got there?
ZARRELL: No.
GRACE: I`m hearing in my ear there`s an update right now regarding the Lindsay Lohan case.
Rob Shuter, "Naughty But Nice" columnist for Huffington Post, Lindsay Lohan stays over with some friends in their mansion and the next morning police on the scene. Jewelry worth thousands of dollars coincidentally goes missing.
Lindsay "sticky fingers" Lohan, is she at it again?
ROB SHUTER, NAUGHTY BUT NICE COLUMNIST FOR HUFFINGTON POST: Yes, there`s some massive story that`s breaking, Nancy. What happened is Lindsay went to a fabulous party in the Hollywood Hills on Sunday night. She actually partied the entire night.
Monday morning they woke up and about noon she was ready to leave and the guy that owns the house found out some watches, some sunglasses had gone missing. He asked everybody to stay until the police was called.
What makes this very interesting is that Lindsay turned up with her brother and two unidentified men that she let into the party. We`re not sure if they`re friends of hers. However, they are the ones that are suspected of taking this very expensive jewelry.
GRACE: How expensive is it? When you`re saying watches, are we talking about Rolexes? They can be $25,000. Have you seen those with diamonds all the way around them, Rob Shuter?
SHUTER: Yes. We don`t know how expensive this jewelry was. If it was in fact a Rolex it could be worth tens of thousands of dollars. And sunglasses, believe this or not, Nancy, in Hollywood can go for as much as $20,000 a pair. So we`re looking at an enormous expense here.
GRACE: OK, Rob Shuter. I know you`re in with all the Hollywood crowd. You can save that $20,000 and you can actually get a pair of glasses for $6 to $9.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Just food for thought.
Out to you, Alexis Tereszcuk, senior reporter, Radaronline.com. You know what? She has escaped jail time so many times, last time we had the alleged theft of a necklace, caught on video from a jewelry store. Now she happens to be on the scene where thousands of dollars worth of jewelry goes missing, Alexis? And when police showed up, didn`t she say when they were trying to question her, am I a suspect? And they go, not right now. She goes, OK, bye. Seems like she`s been around the block a time or two.
ALEXIS TERESZCUK, REPORTER, RADAROLINE.COM: Yes, she is very familiar with the legal system. But the thing is that she`s not familiar with is punishment by the legal system. Lindsay never gets in any trouble for anything. People give her third, fourth, fifth, 20th chances. And that`s exactly what she did. The cops wanted to question her. But instead of staying around and trying to help her friend, she went to a house where stuff was stolen, she couldn`t just give any details? No, she high-tailed it out of there. As always. So cops are going to talk --
GRACE: Well, I`m glad to hear, Alexis, she`s partying until 3:00 a.m. in the morning. Hey, she just finished that movie where she portrays Elizabeth Taylor who is probably spinning like a top in her grave. So she`s got to run through that money somehow.
Out to the lines. Beth in Texas. Hi, Beth, what`s your question?
BETH, CALLER FROM TEXAS: Hi, Nancy. How are you?
GRACE: I`m good.
BETH: I just want you to know how wonderful I think you are.
GRACE: Thank you.
BETH: I watch you every night.
GRACE: Thank you.
BETH: But, anyway, yes, I was just basically wondering how well, if you know, Lindsay did know these guys.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Good question. Ellie Jostad, what do we know?
ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE CHIEF EDITORIAL PRODUCER: Well, Nancy, as Rob explained, you know, supposedly she brought these guys to the party with her, her little brother also with her, her assistant. And the homeowner apparently believed that these people might have somehow been involved in what happened there, and his alleged jewel theft.
It`s not clear really to me at least how well Lohan knew these people or whether the company she kept got her involved in another scandal.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LINDSAY LOHAN, ACTRESS: As far as I knew, I was being in compliant with my program.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Her lifestyle may be getting close to being out of control.
LOHAN: But that`s how it comes together for me and it`s great.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You want a tight leash. You`re not going to be on that leash anymore. The leash is going to be self-imposed.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Yet another scandal that could involve jail time, Lindsay Lohan, who just finishes her bio-pic Elizabeth Taylor, spinning in her grave like a top. Now spends the night or goes to a friend`s mansion and coincidentally thousands of dollars of jewelry goes missing. Undercover camera video of her leaving the jewelry store last time with the stolen necklace around her neck.
All right. What happened with that, Rob Shuter?
SHUTER: It`s still -- the case with the jewelry, she paid her time, she did what she said she would do, she did her community service.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: OK. Whoa, whoa, wait. Rob, Rob, Rob. OK, judging by your accent, you`re not from around these parts. All right, here we don`t pay our time. Did she do jail time on the last stolen necklace?
SHUTER: She did not do jail time. However, what she did do is what the judge ordered her to do. She did her community service and so she`s paid that debt as far as the law is concerned.
GRACE: OK. She did community service. Now what was before that? Was there a cocaine incident? What was the charge before that, Rob Shuter?
SHUTER: Before that case, Lindsay was charged with several substance abuse issues. Once again, she did serve the time that was allotted her. Many people thought she got off very lightly because she`s Lindsay Lohan and she is a big star. However, the punishment that she was assigned she did actually end up completing.
GRACE: Alexis Tereszcuk, what`s the status of this case where the jewelry and the sunglasses were stolen out of this guy`s mansion?
TERESZCUK: So for this case that happened right now, it`s very telling that instead of just asking Lindsay to call her friends, the owner of the friend immediately called the cops before she could leave. He knew that something was up and that whenever Lindsay Lohan is around bad tinges happened.
GRACE: Let`s stop and remember Army Specialist George Cauley, 24, Walker, Minnesota, killed Afghanistan. Bronze Star, Purple Heart, Army Reserve Components Achievement medal, also served Iraq. Loved football, music, cars, video games and only child. Leaves behind Gold Star parents Richard and Gloria.
George Cauley, American hero.
Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us. Dr. Drew up next.
Everyone, I`ll see you tomorrow night 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.
END
