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Nancy Grace
Man Kills Lover After Learning She`s HIV-Positive
Aired September 11, 2012 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, live, Dallas. A 7 and 8- year-old come home from school, but within minutes they come out screaming, quote, "Something`s wrong with Mommy."
Bombshell tonight. The little boy and girl find their mommy dead on the bedroom floor. And tonight, a stunning motive for murder emerges. The prime suspect, a married father of two. Did he stab his girlfriend, 28- year-old Cicely Bolden, mother of two herself, to death when he learns she`s HIV-positive?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Stabbed to death on the bedroom floor.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police say Larry Dunn had sex with Cicely Bolden. Afterwards, she told him she had HIV.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Dunn was upset, went to the kitchen, got a knife and stabbed Bolden to death. He said, quote, "She killed me, so I killed her."
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How did he know (INAUDIBLE) How did he know?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Cicely Bolden lived with her 7 and 8-year-old children, who found her body.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They came out crying.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They were screaming that something was wrong with mama.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She killed me, so I killed her.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And I just remember that there was a lot of blood. You know, she didn`t say a word.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.
Bombshell tonight. Live to Dallas. A 7 and 8-year-old come home from school, but within minutes they come shrieking out of the home, Something`s wrong with Mommy. The little boy and girl find their mom dead on the bedroom floor.
And tonight, a stunning motive for murder emerges. The prime suspect, a married father of two. Did he stab his young girlfriend, Cicely Bolden, to death when he learns she is HIV-positive? Quote, "You`re killing me, so I kill you."
We are taking your calls. I`m going straight out to Tanya Eiserer with "The Dallas Morning News." Tanya, is it true that -- we are learning from reports that a possible motive for murder is that he finds out -- this is a married father of two -- that his lover, his girlfriend, is HIV- positive. So he comes over, has sex with her one last time, then stabs her to death?
TANYA EISERER, "DALLAS MORNING NEWS" (via telephone): Yes, according to the police records, he told cops that they started talking about her having HIV and her telling him that it wasn`t that bad. And so he became upset. He went into the kitchen. He told police he got a knife and he came back and he stabbed her, he thought, twice in the neck.
GRACE: To Brett Larson. You know, it`s a mystery to me -- we were talking to Tanya Eiserer with "The Dallas Morning News" -- how somebody can be confused when he says, I think I stabbed her twice in the neck. I mean, you don`t know? You stab somebody to death and you don`t know? And you leave her there dead, half naked on the bedroom floor for her children to come home and find, a 7 and 8-year-old child, a boy and girl, brother and sister come in?
You know how they`re going to be traumatized the rest of their lives because this guy allegedly murders his girlfriend when he learns she`s HIV- positive? And she tells him, so what does he do? He has sex with her one more time. She`s half-naked. She`s naked from the waist down when she`s discovered by her own children dead. He has sex one last time. Then he stabs her to death? And he says, Oh, I don`t know, maybe once, maybe twice. I don`t know how many times I stabbed her.
BRETT LARSON, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: Yes. And stabs her in the neck. Not to mention, if HIV was the concern here, wouldn`t you be a little concerned about stabbing somebody and getting blood on you and taking it from beyond -- you know, this guy -- this guy is married himself, and then shows absolutely no remorse for it, saying -- saying Well, she killed me, so I killed her.
And there`s actually no proof of that. He hasn`t been tested. And there`s no proof that...
GRACE: Whoa! Whoa! Stop! Stop, Larson! Clark Goldband, do I have a hearing problem? Did he just say that he doesn`t even know if he`s positive? I mean, isn`t it very difficult to contract AIDS, as compared to other ways, with regular vaginal sex? I mean, he doesn`t even know he`s got HIV for sure and he stabs her to death?
CLARK GOLDBAND, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: What Brett Larson said, Nancy, is correct. As far as we know, he has not been tested, and we do not know if he has contracted this HIV virus.
GRACE: Joining me right now is Marvelyn Brown, HIV/AIDS activist, author of "The Naked Truth: Young, Beautiful and HIV-Positive." Help me out. Help me out. Tell me the facts.
MARVELYN BROWN, AIDS/HIV ACTIVIST (via telephone): I look at it like this. That woman lost her life not because she was HIV-positive, but because of the stigma that surrounds the virus. People have got to educate themselves so that the stigma is reduced, so people are not fearful of telling their status. This is a true tragedy.
GRACE: You know, I`m going to go out now to the Dallas, Texas, district attorney. Craig Watkins is joining me. You know, there are a lot of cases where a homicide is played down to, for instance, voluntary manslaughter when -- like a bar fight. Or for instance, here`s the typical one -- man comes home, finds wife in bed with another man. And it`s called a passion killing.
But you know what, Craig? I don`t think that`s going to work in this case because I think that he knew she was HIV, that he had sex with her one last time, and then killed her. What do we know, Craig Watkins?
Everybody, joining me is the Dallas County district attorney handling this case. And again, thank you for being with us. Weigh in, sir.
CRAIG WATKINS, DALLAS COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY (via telephone): Yes. Thanks for having me. I just need to clarify something for you. In Texas, we have a murder statute and a capital murder statute. And at this point, based upon the information that we`ve received, it may fall under the murder category. Now, capital murder is basically when you commit an offense in the process of committing a felony. And so...
GRACE: Such as an aggravated assault?
WATKINS: Well, based upon limited information that we have at this point, it looks like it may just be a murder. At this point, all we have is an affidavit of an arrest warrant. We don`t even have the case yet.
GRACE: Let me ask you something. Do you have a heat of passion lesser included manslaughter offense in Texas?
WATKINS: Yes, we do. Yes, we do.
GRACE: And what is that called in Texas, voluntary manslaughter?
WATKINS: Yes.
GRACE: Which is what I said at the very beginning.
WATKINS: Yes. Yes. But you know, when we talk about this case, we`re looking at, you know, I believe murder or capital murder. And if there`s a felony involved as it relates to the underlying offense, then, yes, we can go for capital murder. Then the punishment rank changes. Now, murder, for example, you will still face life in prison. Capital murder, you will face the ultimate punishment.
GRACE: Let me ask you one last question, Mr. Watkins, before I move to another topic, including you -- with me is the Dallas County district attorney, Craig Watkins. With capital murder, where there has to be an underlying felony, does aggravated assault with a weapon, which is a felony, qualify as an underlying felony, yes, no?
WATKINS: Well, it`s not that cut and dried. I mean, it`s not a yes- no answer. We have to basically look at the facts and circumstances.
For example, if you`re on the street robbing someone and use a weapon, obviously, that`s a capital murder case. Now, in this instance, it looks like the facts say that, you know, they were in an intimate relationship, and as a result of being told about the HIV status, he decided to take this person`s life. So it may not fit within that statute.
But this is premature. Things are very early on. The investigation is still ongoing. We have to get more information before we make a determination on what charges we will pursue from the district attorney`s standpoint.
GRACE: Right. Everyone, with me, Craig Watkins, the Dallas County district attorney.
We`re taking your calls. Shannon, Texas. Hi, Shannon. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. How are you?
GRACE: I`m good -- well, actually, I`m not good because I`m not so sure that this was not a rape and a murder, a revenge rape when he discovers his girlfriend is HIV-positive. He`s a married father of two. He hasn`t even taken a test to find out if he`s positive, to our understanding. Yet he says this is why he stabs her and says, we`re going to go, Oh, yes. OK. Yes, that makes sense.
yes, it doesn`t make sense! And this 7 and 8-year-old child come home from school to find Mommy half naked, dead on the floor, all right? Now, how are they going to grow up normally? They`re not. There`s no way. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I agree 100 percent, Nancy. This is a tragedy. And I`m so glad that you`re featuring this story this morning because I`m looking at social media and looking at all the social network things. A lot of people are being very critical of, you know, her.
GRACE: What? Why?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And I just am -- I`m very glad that you`re highlighting the fact that...
GRACE: Shannon, why are they critical of her? Liz, get me Rachel on the phone because I want to find out why on social media everybody`s mad at her. She`s dead. She`s got a 7 and 8-year-old child left behind. Why are they being critical of her, Shannon?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It has not been confirmed that they had any sex. I mean, right now, she`s not here to tell us her story. And I know there`s two sides to every story. Of course, he`s going to tailor and custom the story to try to justify as much as he can his poor choice of actions. But that`s terrible.
GRACE: Well, Shannon, even by his own words, this is murder one because voluntary manslaughter, heat of passion killing -- as I gave you the old example they taught me in law school, man comes home, finds wife in bed with lover. All right. He`s so angry, he shoots them all. That is your typical, stereotypical textbook voluntary manslaughter heat of passion slaying, where you don`t have premeditation.
But here, by his own words, Shannon in Texas, it is a revenge murder. Revenge does not qualify as voluntary manslaughter.
Unleash the lawyers. Darryl Cohen, defense attorney. He`s tried several of these cases as a former felony prosecutor. Evangeline Gomez (ph), defense attorney, and Brianne Deselier (ph) out of Miami.
All right, Darryl Cohen, you have prosecuted murders that ended up as voluntary manslaughters. You`ve prosecuted actual voluntary manslaughters, and you have defended them. Weigh in.
DARRYL COHEN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, in my view, it`s very clear. This was not revenge. He was enraged. It was the heat of passion. Had sex, she said, Oh, by the way...
GRACE: Enraged because...
COHEN: ... I`m HIV -- because...
GRACE: Follow that thought.
COHEN: ... he found out she had and probably gave him HIV.
GRACE: Wa! Wa-wa!
COHEN: He runs and gets some sort of a weapon.
GRACE: No, no, no, no, no, no, no!
COHEN: Oh, yes.
GRACE: No. You`re jumping the gun because when he finds out she`s HIV, what he does then is in revenge. You say anger, I say revenge.
COHEN: Not revenge, Nancy. Not revenge at all. It is nothing more than he was enraged. He didn`t know what he was doing. And heat of passion. Bam.
GRACE: OK, as much as I`d like to hear more of the same -- not -- I`ve got Rachel on the phone. Rachel, why is everybody angry at her on social media?
RACHEL KENT, NANCY GRACE SOCIAL MEDIA PRODUCER: Well, Nancy, what -- I`ve been looking at the social media landscape, and it seems as though people are very upset that she did not reveal that she had -- she was HIV- positive, which she used as a weapon, like a bullet, people are saying, and they`re blaming the victim.
GRACE: Well, wait a minute, Rachel. Why do I believe him? Why do I believe he just found out? Here`s a married man with two children cheating with this 28-year-old. She`s a mom of two herself. I`m not saying she was right about that. But what I`m saying, how did I know he didn`t already know? How I do know he didn`t rape her that day? He murdered her. So why is everybody mad at her? Does that somehow excuse what he did because she`s HIV?
Rachel, I`m talking to you.
KENT: I mean, hopefully, Nancy, you can change the discussion because it seems as though everyone on social media is blaming the victim.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And I`m thinking to myself, So you think you`re just going to give me HIV and then kick me to the curb. That`s not about to happen. And we just -- I just took it, and she`s no longer alive.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: All right, a 7 and 8-year-old child, two children, boy, girl siblings, come home. They find Mommy dead, half naked, naked from the waist down, dead, stabbed to death two times in the throat. Can you imagine that crime scene, with being stabbed in your jugular and the blood just pumping out with every heartbeat onto the bedroom floor for your children to come home and see?
This young mom of two, Cicely Bolden, it happened to her. She`s just 28. She gets tangled up with a married man. She tells him she`s HIV- positive, and he stabs her to death. His big defense, that she told him she`s HIV. Like, when did that become a defense?
We are taking your calls. Tracy in Georgia. Hi, Tracy. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I`m listening to this, and this guy -- he`s -- he has this girlfriend. He`s married with two kids. You know, I don`t understand. He -- that girl -- I`m (INAUDIBLE) so wrapped up. I went to the social media stuff. That is not that girl`s fault. That is not that girl`s fault.
GRACE: Well, I`m just sick. I`m sick because...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He should have wrapped it up. And now he might -- he might have not only have killed his -- his girlfriend, he might have killed himself and his wife!
GRACE: And another thing. Now, with HIV, you can get on the cocktail and be on meds and they test your blood and it registers negative. Negative! The treatment is so refined at this point that actual blood tests can show you`re negative when you have been on the cocktail.
Now, what are we going to do with this 7 and 8-year-old little boy and girl who come home to find their mommy half naked, stabbed in the neck, dead on the floor? His defense? She killed me, I`m killing her because she`s HIV. He hasn`t even tested himself!
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just remember just a lot of blood.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When he grabbed a knife and stabbed the mother of two to death inside her apartment after he says she stunned him by revealing she was HIV-positive.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You think you`re going to give me HIV and then kick me to the curb. That`s not about to happen.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You`ve not once said you`re sorry you killed her.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She killed me. It`s kind of hard for me to feel sorry for that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: I don`t even know what to say in response to what I just heard that killer say about his victim. Now, whether you want to judge the victim or not for having an affair with a married man, OK, I`m not going to throw a stone, all right?
But he murdered her. He held her down and stabbed her twice in the neck. He knows she has a 7 and 8-year-old child about to come home from school and leaves her there that way. His defense, she told him she`s HIV.
All right, Evangeline Gomez, Darryl Cohen, Brianne Deselier. Evangeline, let`s hear your defense.
EVANGELINE GOMEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Adequate provocation. It was definitely heat of passion.
GRACE: Provocation.
GOMEZ: This woman maliciously, knowingly and intentionally infected him with HIV. They had sex numerous times. She then tells him. He runs to the kitchen, grabs a knife and stabs her twice. In fact, he is so out of it that he doesn`t remember.
GRACE: Well, can I ask you, Evangeline Gomez, doesn`t your whole theory fall flat because she tells him. She tells him she`s HIV. It`s not like she`s keeping it a secret and trying to infect him. How do I know he hasn`t known all along? Didn`t you hear what he just said? She`s going to kick me to the curb. Sounds more to me that he was angry she was breaking up with him.
GOMEZ: Nancy, this woman told him after having sex numerous times with him. And according to her husband, she has known for a couple years.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Stabbed to death on the bedroom floor.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police say Larry Dunn had sex with Cicely Bolden. Afterwards, she told him she had HIV.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Dunn was upset, went to the kitchen, got a knife and stabbed Bolden to death. He said, quote, "She killed me, so I killed her."
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How does he know (INAUDIBLE) How did he know?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Cicely Bolden lived with her 7 and 8-year-old children, who found her body.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They came out crying.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They were screaming that something was wrong with mama.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She killed me, so I killed her.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And I just remember just a lot of blood. You know, she didn`t say a word.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls. Her children come home from school, like every other day, like mine did today, find their mother half naked lying on her bedroom floor dead, stabbed in the neck, if you can imagine the blood pulsing out of that carotid artery for them to find!
Her married boyfriend says, yes, I killed her because she killed me. Last I looked he was still alive.
Tanya Eiserer, "Dallas Morning News", when I hear him talk and say, I don`t have any sympathy for my victim, didn`t he say something about how she was going to kick him to the curb?
TANYA EISERER, STAFF REPORTER, THE DALLAS MORNING NEWS: Apparently that`s what he told one of the TV interviewers is my understanding.
GRACE: So tell me -- Tanya, is he saying that he just learned she was HIV? What`s his explanation?
EISERER: Well, according to police records, there is some indications that perhaps he`d already known because her friends and family told the cops that she started dating a man named Larry and that they believe there had been some heated discussion about her having HIV. So it seems like he must have already known before he came over that day.
GRACE: Yes, OK, take that defense lawyers. Out to the line. Spencer, Arizona.
Hi, Spencer, what`s your question?
SPENCER, CALLER FROM ARIZONA: Hey, Nancy. I`m so happy to talk to you. You are such a fierce prosecutor. But that D.A., he`s an idiot. I mean is he making excuses for this man? Of course he should get capital murder charges. What are the chances of him getting capital murder charges?
GRACE: Let`s go back to Craig Watkins. He is the Dallas County district attorney. He`ll be handling this case.
And let me tell you something, Spencer, no decision has been made. And I`m sure that Mr. Watkins is taking a listen and planning to use every bit of what this guy, the defendant, this married father of two, is saying to a reporter including he has no sympathy for the victim.
And now we`re learning, Mr. Watkins, that he apparently knew she was HIV-positive before he came over that morning, had sex with her and murdered her.
CRAIG WATKINS, DALLAS COUNTY ATTORNEY: Yes. You know, I somewhat take offense from the -- your last caller. I`m in the business of seeking the truth. And I have to have credibility with jurors. And at this point all I have is an arrest affidavit. And so at this point, based upon that affidavit, it falls within the category of murder outside of capital murder.
Now those facts may change. And if they do change, then as the D.A. of Dallas County, then I`ll pursue those charges like I`ve done in more cases than not. And so I am very --
GRACE: Hey, Mr. Watkins, do you guys use a grand jury?
WATKINS: Yes, we do.
GRACE: OK. Let me tell Spencer in Arizona in a nutshell how that works. There is an arrest which there has been in this case. Then it goes to the D.A.`s office, sometimes there is a bind over hearing or preliminary hearing. Here they use a grand jury for citizens usually between 20 and 40 meet once or twice a week. They hear cases based on an arrest report. Then they decide what the charge will be. Now the elected D.A. will make the decision whether they`re going to seek the death penalty.
So Spencer in Arizona, I think a lot of people are going to agree with you, not that the D.A. is an idiot, because he`s here today answering questions, and just by hearing him talk, he knows what he`s doing. He`s tried a lot of cases. But what he`s trying to say is right now all they got is an arrest report. They`ve got to investigate. Much like we`re doing tonight. We`re following the clues that are left behind. And with everybody we talk to, we get another piece of the puzzle.
For instance, Tanya Eiserer with the "Dallas Morning News" just told us that many people believe he knew long before this that she was HIV.
Let`s go out to Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst, author of "Dealbreakers."
Bethany, if this is not a case of revenge, I don`t know what is. Revenge that she was either going to kick him to the curb, as he said to a reporter. That can come into evidence. Or about -- her being HIV. That is not a source of legitimate provocation such as self-defense. If you`re defending yourself, you can kill -- you can`t kill just because your lover has HIV.
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST, AUTHOR OF "DEALBREAKERS": Nancy, this is revenge pure and simple. And when he said that she gave him HIV and now she wants to kick him to the curb, what he`s saying is, I knew my girlfriend had HIV and I engendered a feeling of guilt and obligation in her that she should never leave me, never date or have sex with anybody else.
Despite the fact that I endanger that guilt she took her freedom to go out and establish a new relationship and now I am going to seek revenge against her for breaking up with me. We know women who are victims of domestic homicide are at the greatest risk when they are about to leave the relationship. And this is sadly one more example of that.
And one more thing, Nancy, talk to any cop who goes to a domestic violence scene where a man is aggressing upon a woman, the man will always say she started it. She did it first. She attacked me when clearly there are signs that the man attacked the woman. Isn`t that what he`s doing in a fancy dressed-up version? She gave me HIV so I had to kill her?
GRACE: Bethany. Bethany, you know what else is just killing me right now is I thought I knew it all having been a crime victim and my fiance was murdered many years ago. But now that I have, after all the years, I finally have my children, John David and Lucy. Can you imagine -- I really can`t what effect this is going to have on that 7- and 8-year-old boy and girl, her children, when they come home.
I mean even now. A little thing will happen at playschool and Lucy or John David will come home and cry. All right, now I do my best to do the right thing, to make them feel better. Who is going to be able to help these children? They`ll never be the same, Bethany. So this guy --
MARSHALL: And you know, Nancy --
GRACE: -- has in effect got three crime victims.
MARSHALL: That`s right. That`s what I was about to say. You know that he ripped her clothes off, stabbed her in the neck, left there lying there bleeding on the floor as an act of aggression against the children as well. You`re correct there are three victims. The best thing we can do for these children is to get them into another home with another parental figure where there is a secure attachment.
GRACE: We`re taking your calls. But I want to go back to Rachel. The social media is blaming this mom. A 28-year-old mother of two. She`s raising a 7- and 8-year-old child, boy and girl, by herself. All right? She`s HIV-positive. She`s doing everything she can to raise them. She`s tangled up with a married boyfriend. She`s trying to break up, apparently. He comes over, stabs her in the neck. Leaves her for her children to find.
Tell me they`re going to be normal growing up. And claims it`s because she was HIV. As if he didn`t know.
All right. Rachel, why is everybody mad at her?
RACHEL KENT, NANCY GRACE SOCIAL MEDIA PRODUCER: You know, Nancy, I don`t know. But since we started covering the case tonight and your post on Facebook, your viewers are really analyzing this guy`s actions now. Your viewers are saying, you know what? He should have worn protection regardless. That`s how you protect yourself, which is a good point.
Also, folks are debating whether she really did tell him or not. A lot of your viewers now thinking maybe she did tell him. They don`t believe someone who would murder someone in this manner. But, you know, the common denominator is this, you don`t commit murder, plain and simple.
GRACE: The "Family Album" showcasing your photos from iReport. Tonight, Nova Scotia friends, Donna, Darrell and Georgia Reeves. They love the beach, road trips, barbecues.
Share photos at hlnTV.com/Nancygrace and click on "Nancy`s Family Album."
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: More in 90 seconds. But first tonight we remember nearly 3,000 people, Americans, who lost their lives September 11th. The attack on America. We pay tribute and we honor all those heroes, the men and women, emergency workers, military, who put themselves in harm`s way for our freedom.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Police say Dunn and Bolden recently started dating.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Larry Dunn had sex with Sicily Bolden. Afterwards, she told him she had HIV.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Dunn was upset, went to the kitchen, got a knife and stabbed Bolden to death.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Dunn told police, she killed me so I killed her.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How does he know he had it? How did he know?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why wasn`t the guy taking his own precautions there? When he could have been wearing a condom.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Out to Dr. William Morrone, medical examiner, forensic pathologist and toxicologist, joining us out of Madison Heights.
Dr. Morrone, stabbed twice in the neck. What type of crime scene would those children have come home to?
DR. WILLIAM R. MORRONE, MEDICAL EXAMINER; FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST, TOXICOLOGIST: When you stab somebody in the neck, you open up blood to be pumped directly out of the heart. It`s going to be a bloody mess. There are only three fatal stab locations, above the shoulders and the neck is two out of three of those fatal stab locations. It`s terrible. It`s worse than being stabbed in the heart.
GRACE: To Brett Larson, investigative reporter. Brett, we are now discerning that the married father of two, Larry Dunn Jr., knew already -- his young lover, mom of two, 28-year-old Sicily, he already knew she was HIV. What do you know about the fact that she was trying to leave him?
BRETT LARSON, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: Well, we haven`t heard a lot of reports about the fact that she was trying to leave him. But we definitely do have reports from friends saying that she wasn`t the type of person to keep this a secret and that she hadn`t been keeping it a secret for any length of time. Now we have heard that, you know, he had told the media they were going to -- she was going to kick him to the curb which would -- I guess send him into a rage.
But as for it being a big secret that she just revealed to him, there`s just -- there`s no facts to back that up that we found.
GRACE: Other than what he says. I`m going to believe him?
To John Lucich, former criminal investigator, president of E Forensics. John, here is another bombshell tonight. We learned that he takes his clothing that he was wearing and the murder weapon and tries to burn them immediately after the stabbing. Now to me, that says guilty conscience.
JOHN LUCICH, CRIMINAL INVESTIGATOR, PRESIDENT, E FORENSICS: Absolutely, Nancy. By his words alone, "I killed her because she killed me," that`s revenge. Then he gets rid of the weapon. He burns his clothes to do away with the forensic evidence. He`s covering up. You know, they`ve got to come up with the evidence after they process this crime scene. It may come out based on what the crime scene says that this guy is lying about this altogether.
That it wasn`t a simple just quick stabbing. That he -- she was actually fighting with him because she wag going to throw him out. And he went to a rage and killed her for that. You`ll get blood splatters. There`s going to be so much evidence that comes out of this process of the crime scene. Everybody has to wait for that. You`re going to see this story turn around quickly. This guy is a piece of human trash.
GRACE: Everybody, we`re taking your calls. Let`s go out to Allen in Virginia. Hi, Allen. What`s your question?
ALLEN, CALLER FROM VIRGINIA: Hi, Nancy. My question is about the children. It`s bad enough that they had to find their mother dead on the floor. But do they also have HIV? And if so, what kind of impact would this have on their lives?
GRACE: You know, I don`t know that. But I -- let me go to Brett Larson and Clark Goldband.
Clark, what do we know about the children?
CLARK GOLDBAND, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER, COVERING STORY: Nancy, I can tell you they`re 7 and 8 years old of age, one is a boy, one is a girl. And right now we believe they are with their father. We do not know their status at this time.
GRACE: I don`t have any indication that they are HIV-positive.
Do we still have Craig Watkins, Liz?
Craig, do we know whether the children are HIV-positive?
WATKINS: At this point the assumption is that they`re not. We have to information that says that they are. So we have to assume that they are not.
GRACE: Marvelyn Brown is an activist and author. It is not necessary, just because we know the mom is now HIV that the children are. They are ages 7 and 8, Miss Brown. That does not mean that they are positive.
MARVELYN BROWN, AIDS/HIV ACTIVIST, HIV-POSITIVE, AUTHOR OF "THE NAKED TRUTH": No, not at all. Women living with HIV can have long, healthy and productive lives and also become mothers and the children not become infected.
GRACE: Miss Brown, how does that happen? Please explain to the viewers. How a mom with HIV can give birth and her children are not HIV?
BROWN: Well, for one, the mother needs to know her status. And there is prenatal care that one will go through. You consult with your doctors whether you can have a vaginal delivery or you need a C-section. And they want to reduce your (INAUDIBLE) to undetectable and make sure your (INAUDIBLE) count is as high as possible.
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Kids came home around 3:30. They walked inside the house. They came out crying. I ran out to see what was wrong with them. All I know is she didn`t deserve it, and her kids didn`t deserve to see her like that. I can`t imagine my kids seeing me like that.
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GRACE: Her children come home to find her dead on the floor from stabbing wounds to her neck. Half naked. Her married boyfriend says he killed her because he discovered she was HIV. Her family calling in tonight telling me she made no secret of it at all. And that he knew before the day of her murder.
We are taking your calls, but first to Brianne Desellier. I want to hear your point of view.
BRIANNE DESELLIER, ATTORNEY: Nancy, the emphasis right now on the victim is entirely misplaced. And quite frankly, it`s obscuring the real legal issue here. We have a defendant here who brutally stabbed this woman multiple times and then left behind a gruesome crime scene for her children to discover.
This is exactly the type of depravity, the type of reckless disregard for human life that`s sufficient to support a murder charge.
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers. With me Brianne Desellier, Miami, Darryl Cohen, Atlanta, Evangeline Gomez, New York.
Does it mean anything to you, Darryl Cohen, that after the murder he goes out and tries to burn his clothes and the murder weapon? You know that evidence around the time of the offense can be used at trial including this.
DARRYL COHEN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Certainly it means something to me, Nancy. It means to me that oh my gosh, I realized what I have just done. I`ve got to go clean up. And still --
GRACE: First of all, we don`t say OMG on NANCY GRACE. Number one.
COHEN: Oh my gosh. Not god.
GRACE: And number two, as you well -- same thing. As you well know, one may immediately regret the deed, but that does not negate malice, a forethought or premeditation, Darryl. Remember that jury charge that all the judges give in murder trials when the defendant`s like ooh, I didn`t mean to?
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Kids was crying. I ran in there to see what was going on. I seen her on the side of the bed. Every time I close my eyes, I see here. How did he know he had it? How did he know?
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GRACE: We`re taking your calls. Out to Rose in South Carolina. Hi, Rose. What`s your question, dear?
ROSE, CALLER FROM SOUTH CAROLINA: Hi, Nancy. Thank you for taking my question. What I`m confused about is how long had they been seeing each other? And if he did have HIV, wouldn`t there be medication in her medicine cabinet and how do we know he didn`t give it to her and he freaked out because maybe he did find out he had it?
GRACE: To -- let me see Brett Larson and Clark Goldband, also Mr. Craig Watkins, the Dallas County district attorney.
Craig, do you have the answers to any of those questions yet? I know it`s premature. You just have an arrest report, but you may know some of that.
WATKINS: No, we don`t have any answers to those questions yet by your caller.
GRACE: OK. OK.
WATKINS: All we have is the arrest warrant which basically lays out the general fact of the actual murder.
GRACE: OK, everybody, Watkins is just getting the case and was kind enough to join us tonight. He`s on it. He`s investigating it and looking for answers just like we are. And we`ll have a grand jury convened in this case as well.
What do we know, Clark Goldband?
GOLDBAND: Nancy, I can tell you that the brother of the victim says that she was very open about her status and the father who`s the ex-husband of the victim has said she contracted it within the last few years.
GRACE: And Brett Larson, what can you add to that?
LARSON: I can ad to that that we do know that the two of them had not been dating that long. And in fact, hadn`t been dating long. One of the neighbors said she didn`t recognize the man when he came over on Thursday night or on Thursday day.
GRACE: And what about it, Bethany Marshall? There he is up behind bars giving interviews and -- you know what? Let me throw this back out to you, Brett Larson. There he is giving interviews saying that he has no sympathy for the victim. That`s going to play well to a jury.
LARSON: It`s kind of amazing he gives this speech about how he doesn`t feel bad for her kids. He doesn`t feel bad for her, you know. But he feels bad for himself, his wife, and his own children. Because now they`re not going to have a parent figure within their lives. So really kind of heartless. To say the least.
GRACE: We are on the case. "DR. DREW" up next. And tonight happy birthday to one of our superstars Stephen.
Everyone, I`ll see you tomorrow night 8:00 sharp Eastern. Until then, good night, friend.
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