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First Presidential Debate Wednesday; Playing The Expectations Game; Election Winner Could Change High Court; Battle For the Senate; California Bans "Gay Cure" For Youth; Syria Defends Civil War; Meg Whitman's Advice For Romney

Aired October 01, 2012 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: I was just record shopping yesterday, Suzanne Malveaux, thank you very much.

And good to see all of you. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

Want to let you know here, off the top, we are expecting the results from the most recent search for Jimmy Hoffa. We are told investigators have tested the soil that was taken from this home in Detroit. A tip led police there just last week in this latest chapter here really involving one of America's greatest mysteries. As soon as we get those results, we will bring them to you live here on CNN.

But first, let's talk about what you're talking about, that being the presidential debate. And we're going to do that here.

But I do want to just begin with talking taxes. Yes, taxes. Did you hear Paul Ryan? If I heard this correctly, if I heard Paul Ryan correctly, he said he cannot explain Mitt Romney's tax policy, at least not the whole thing because, well, it would take too long. We're going to play some of that sound for you here in just a moment.

But Romney and Ryan, they are clear about this. That they would cut everyone's tax rate 20 percent. Cut and dry, 20 percent rate cut. But, to protect the government's revenue stream, they would have to kill certain deductions and certain loopholes. But they won't be specific. They won't say which ones those would be.

Here is Congressman Ryan. He starts by trumpeting the tax rate cut.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PAUL RYAN (R), VICE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Lowering tax rates by broadening the tax base works. And you can. Let me -- let me just --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But I have to just ask (ph). You haven't given me the math.

RYAN: No, but you -- well, I don't have the -- it would take me too long to go through all of the math.

(END VIDEO CLIP) BALDWIN: Too long to go through the math, he says. But Ryan did go on to hint, he didn't promise, but he hinted that a Romney administration would look very hard at tax loopholes enjoyed by the wealthy. Here's that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RYAN: When you close a tax write-off or a tax shelter for a higher income person, more of their income is subject to taxation, so you can lower tax rates. That's where we begin. So where we go is by denying those deductions and loopholes to higher income people, which allows us to lower tax rates for everybody across the board and still afford important preferences for the middle class taxpayers.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: So there you have Paul Ryan on taxes. And we do expect, of course, some of those comments to pop up come Wednesday night during the debate in Denver. The very first presidential debate here of this election season.

And I want to go to chief White House correspondent Jessica Yellin. She is in Washington with me.

We now know, Jess, that the president is in Nevada. Romney also headed westward. So there is obviously a lot going into these debate preparations and I have to imagine that's not unusual whatsoever.

JESSICA YELLIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: No, it's not unusual. It is standard for the candidates to go into debate camp. That is especially true for a sitting president for whom it's tough to carve out time when he's in the White House. So leaving town is really the only way for a sitting president to do it.

Brooke.

BALDWIN: And, of course, we know Mitt Romney was, you know, working in, what was it, Vermont or New Hampshire during the DNC?

YELLIN: Yes.

BALDWIN: So we know he's been -- he's been preparing as well. And we've been talking over and over about the so-called expectations game, where the Romney folks try to, you know, make Romney out to be the King Kong of all debaters.

YELLIN: Yes.

BALDWIN: And when the Romney folks talk, Obama is suddenly superman. So, Candy Crowley, she has -- she has -- as she always does, an interesting take on all of this. Let's watch this together.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CANDY CROWLEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Apparently Romney supporter and Republican Governor Chris Christie didn't get the memo. GOV. CHRIS CHRISTIE (R), NEW JERSEY: Wednesday night's the restart of this campaign and I think you're going to see those numbers start to move right back in the other direction.

CROWLEY: Note to Governor Christie, no, no, no, no, no. Sop (ph) for pre-debate chatter is to lower expectations for your guy by raising expectations for the other guy. Like this.

PAUL RYAN (R), VICE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: President Obama is a very -- he's a very gifted speaker. The man's been on the national stage for many years. He's an experienced debater.

CROWLEY: And because this is a bipartisanly accepted strategy like this.

DAVID PLOUFFE, WHITE HOUSE SENIOR ADVISER: We've expected all along that Governor Romney will have a good night. He's prepared more than any candidate in history. And he's shown himself to be a very, very good debater through the years.

CROWLEY: Further, governor, since you are supporting Romney, the candidate who is running behind, you are supporting him, right? Then you also need to lower the stakes for Wednesday's first of these presidential debates, like this.

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: Frankly, I can't remember the last time there was one of these comments that grabbed everybody's attention because, frankly, the candidates are too well prepared. They're well scripted.

CROWLEY: And like this.

RYAN: I don't think one event is going to make or break this campaign.

CROWLEY: But definitely, Governor Christie, definitely not like this.

CHRISTIE: And I'm telling you, Bob, Thursday morning, you're all going to be scratching your heads and saying, wow, we have a barn burner now for the next 33 days.

CROWLEY: Because the thing is, when you say that, the president's senior adviser says stuff like this.

PLOUFFE: They expect to come out of this with a race fundamentally changed. Now, what does that mean? If it's going to fundamentally change, that means in seven or 10 days from now you'll see states like Ohio tied, states like Iowa tied, because that's what really matters here.

CROWLEY: Like they say, Governor Christie, there's no heavier burden than great expectations.

Candy Crowley, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BALDWIN: Oh, Jessica Yellin, I love Candy. I love how she said didn't get the memo. I mean this is all part of the noise surrounding this lowering expectations game. But I do want to show everyone this one poll. I mean here's your expectation. This is from ABC News/"Washington Post" found 55 percent of those questioned believe Obama will win the debate, 31 percent said Romney will win. I mean that's obviously huge margin there. Are you surprised by that -- that big differential?

YELLIN: No. I mean, Romney's had a tough run lately, in part driven by a gaffe. And the president's known as a good speaker. So it's not entirely surprising. It means there's a steeper challenge for the president to come out as the perceived, quote, "winner."

But the pressure isn't on the president to change the dynamic in this race on Wednesday night. That pressure is facing Mitt Romney right now. And he has to deliver not only some knockout blows, but also take none of his own, while also communicating warmth, leadership, content, and likability to the viewers at home to really turn this race around in just a debate on Wednesday night. It's a -- it's a huge lift.

BALDWIN: It's a huge lift, but it's also not like Mitt Romney is some, you know, wall flower, far from it. We all remember the primary debates, right? We pulled some sound. This is when -- this is when he's mixing it up with Rick Perry during primary season.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. RICK PERRY (R), TEXAS: The question is, your newspaper --

MITT ROMNEY (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I'm speaking. I'm speaking. I'm speaking. I'm speaking.

PERRY: The newspaper -- it's time for you to tell the truth.

ROMNEY: You get 30 seconds. This is the way the rules work here is that I get 60 seconds and then you get -- and then you get 30 seconds to respond, right?

PERRY: It's time for you to tell the truth, Mitt. Well, no, but the American people want the truth. And they want to hear you say that you knew you had an illegal working at your --

ROMNEY: Anderson -- would you please -- would you please wait? Are you just going to keep talking?

PERRY: Yes, sir.

ROMNEY: Are you going to let me finish with my -- what I have to say?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Hello. Remember that? I remember watching that. That was our CNN debate. Back and forth. A little taste of Mitt Romney. I assume, Jessica Yellin, that the president is -- he's preparing for that kind of exchange.

YELLIN: Sure. I mean Romney is great on the -- behind the podium. And the president, no doubt, has -- is preparing for that. His advisers have watched all that video. Romney and -- Romney will no doubt know that the president has also shown some irritability in the past when he's been challenged. And he cannot afford to seem impatient or thin skinned when he's questioned. So that will be something he'll have to prepare for. So that's something that they'll no doubt be working on in debate camp.

The same will go for Romney. He can't brace or seem thin skinned when the president challenges him. More of a challenge no doubt when you're the sitting president to get used to somebody questioning you, getting right up in your face and taking issue with your policies your truthfulness.

Brooke.

BALDWIN: A lot of game tape to watch by Wednesday. I cannot wait for this debate.

YELLIN: Yes.

BALDWIN: Jessica Yellin, thank you very much.

And just to all of you, a reminder, you're going to hear me say this for the next couple of days. Wednesday night, the president versus his challenger face to face. Of course, special coverage begins at 7:00 Eastern right here on CNN and cnn.com.

And a lot more for you on this Monday. Watch this.

There's a pretty good chance the next president will make at least one Supreme Court pick. And our sources are telling us who has the best shot. I'm Brooke Baldwin. The news is now.

He helped terrorize a nation. And now, from behind bars, one of the D.C. snipers reveals the chilling image he can't erase from his mind.

Plus, California, the first state to ban the so-called cure for being gay. A treatment the governor calls pure quackery.

And, Hugo Chavez's younger, hipper and can ball and rap with the best of them, at least that's what his re-election campaign wants voters to think.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Well, the Supreme Court back in session today and will consider some of the most controversial issues of our time. You have affirmative action, same sex marriage, abortion rights. One item, the highest court will not be considering, those thorough body pat-downs and the use of full body scanners at the U.S. Airports. A Michigan blogger complained that the TSA's screening techniques violate the Fourth Amendment which protects us from illegal searches. But the Supreme Court gave the blogger's complaint a pass.

The nine justices who sit on the U.S. Supreme Court do have the final say on what's legal in this country. Items like I just mentioned, affirmative action, abortion. And now here's something you may not have considered. Over the next four years, Justices Antonin Scalia, Anthony Kennedy, Ruth Bader Ginsburg, will pass their 80th birthdays. And court watchers expect one or more of them to retire during the course of the next presidency. Which justices leave and whether the replacement is nominated by Romney or Obama could tip the balance of the court.

Think back to the contentious health care decision, that 5-4 outcome. This may not be exciting stuff, but it is exciting if you're following it like we are. And it's so, so important. I want to bring in our crime and justice correspondent, Joe Johns.

And, Joe, President Obama already put not just one but two justices on the current court. You know, reading into the Supreme Court tea leaves, if you will, I mean does that give us a pretty good idea as to who, you know, might be on his short list if and when he is re-elected and a vacancy perhaps pops open.

JOHNS: Well, I think so. You never know in these things, Brooke. But if President Obama were re-elected and he got the opportunity to select a replacement, one of the names, though, interesting enough, that we've been hearing a lot is Kamala Harris. Now, she's the California attorney general. She's also been mentioned as a possible nominee for the United States Attorney General if Eric Holder were to step down.

Diana Wood. Now this is a name we've heard before. A lot of people thought she was a lock for the last Supreme Court nomination. She was from Chicago. So her name likely to come up again if the president gets the opportunity.

And there's one other one too that you haven't heard too much about, name is Jacqueline Nguyen. So is an appeals court judge right now. She'd be the first Vietnamese American justice on the Supreme Court. And so, you know, a lot of possibilities there, but I guess Barack Obama has to get re-elected first.

BALDWIN: And that is the big if, right? Let's flip this -- let's flip this script and say if Romney's elected. And he hasn't publicly stated, you know, who he would nominate if he is president, but I know there is an unofficial list. Who's on that list, Joe?

JOHNS: Yes. Well, you would expect a reliable conservative. Romney choices include Judge Brett Kavanaugh, known well in D.C. He's a former top official in the George W. Bush administration, sitting on the federal appeals court in D.C. right now. He actually clerked for Justice Anthony Kennedy back in the day. So perhaps that's a leg up.

Judge Diane Sykes is a popular conservative on the federal appeals court in Milwaukee. So she is a choice too, especially, say, if Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg, one of the liberals, were to retire. Sykes would probably be a leading candidate.

And also have to mention Paul Clement. This is a really well known lawyer who actually served as the United States Solicitor General and argues a lot of big cases before the court, including the health care case. I heard him speak here in Washington, D.C. not too long ago. He's a very sharp guy. So a lot of choices there for Mitt Romney if he gets the job.

BALDWIN: So a lot of --

JOHNS: And assuming somebody steps down, you know, they don't have to step down.

BALDWIN: Right. I mean -- right. I know. But if you have, what, three potential octogenarians the next four years, you have to think that -- you know, you have to start thinking, right, who might fit the bill.

JOHNS: Possibilities.

BALDWIN: Joe Johns. Thank you very much, Joe.

The surviving D.C. sniper is speaking out in this rare interview from behind bars. This maximum security prison in Virginia. You will hear some of the just absolutely chilling details about what Lee Boyd Malvo is revealing about the rampage that terrorized the nation's capital 10 years ago.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: You see the quote right here, "I was a monster." The words of the only surviving D.C. area sniper. From behind bars at this maximum security prison, Lee Boyd Malvo spoke with "The Washington Post" about what he has learned since he and John Allen Muhammad went on a murder spree. One of the most notorious killing sprees this nation really has ever seen in Washington, D.C. and its suburbs. It happened 10 years ago this month. And the two men killed 10 people, hurt three more, including a 13-year-old, and created widespread fear that if you walked out your door that day, you could die.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Everybody's scared. We're scared to go to the store. We're scared to pump gas.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Muhammad was put to death three years ago. Malvo, who is now 27, will spend the rest of his life in prison. And from behind bars, Malvo apologized.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LEE BOYD MALVO, CONVICTED SNIPER (voice-over): I am sorry. I am sorry. There is no way to express -- there is no way to express that. I mean, what -- what am I going to tell them, I'm sorry I murdered your only child, I'm sorry I killed your husband, I'm sorry I murdered your wife? What do I tell the child who was waiting for his father to come home and dad never showed up? I mean there is nothing -- there's --

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Oh. I was in Virginia at the time. I'm sure if you were in D.C., you remember the fear, it was palpable. Malvo also told this writer at "The Washington Post" one of his most vivid memories actually he has of that time, of that killing spree, is when he saw the eyes -- looked into the eyes of this man, Ted Franklin, the husband of a woman he helped shoot down.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MALVO: This is the worst sort of pain I've ever seen in my life. His eyes. It's the worst -- words, do not suggest (ph) the depth in which to fully convey that emotion. And what I felt when I saw it. You feel like the worst piece of scum on the planet.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: It's a pretty compelling interview and article in "The Washington Post." You can hear much more about this interview, this writer from "The Post" sitting across the Plexiglas from Malvo, just this past month. You can watch that in "The Situation Room." That begins at 4:00 Eastern Time.

And to politics. We return. Everyone's talking, of course, about the presidential race. But right now the control of Congress also very much so at stake. We are launching a special series this week and today we'll tell you which two races could mean the difference in the Senate.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: I know everyone has their eye on the White House and the race, of course, and Wednesday's debate in Denver. But we cannot forget about what's happening in Congress. The party, of course, that controls the House and/or the Senate will make a huge difference in what the next president or can't accomplish.

So let's specifically talk Senate and the balance of power because right now, you see the number, 47. Right now Republicans hold 47 Senate seats. But they have their eye, of course, on, you know, retaking the majority, taking control of Capitol Hill. And to do that, they would need to win four seats, just four, currently held by Democrats and then hold on -- of course, the presumption is then they would have to hold on to all of the seats they already control.

We have our eye on two different races today posing problems for both parties. One is in Missouri, where, you know, things have gotten a lot more difficult than expected for Republicans. We've talked about this. We're going to go there in a moment. The other being Maine, where an independent is actually ahead in the polls. So, senior congressional correspondent Dana Bash, she's joining me now. And, Dana, let's talk Missouri here because, look, we've told the Todd Akin, Claire McCaskill story in the past. But given what he has said, you know, not necessarily an easy win for Republicans now.

DANA BASH, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: That's right. And it has been such a roller coaster for Republicans, Brooke. They went into this race months ago thinking that Democrat Claire McCaskill was so vulnerable that they were sure to win this seat. It was complicated by Todd Akin. As you've said, we've talked about it a lot in this program. But the gist of what he said that was so controversial is that a woman's body has the ability to shut down pregnancy from rape. Well, Akin refuse to step aside, of course, and Republicans who hammered him, begged him to get out of the race are now in a really uncomfortable position of having to eat crow. Saying, well, he's better than the Democrat.

Roy Blunt, the current sitting Republican senator from Missouri, publically tried to get Akin to bow out. Listen to what he said yesterday to Candy Crowley on "State of the Union."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. ROY BLUNT (R), MISSOURI: Frankly, I think that anybody else would have been a candidate that clearly would have won. And Todd very well may win. He's on a ticket at a time when people are looking at a Senate that's not doing its work. And the only way to change the Senate is to change the majority.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: So, that is a very different kind of take that we heard from not just Roy Blunt, from lots of other Republicans. And national Republicans are not giving him any money yet, but we'll see what happens. (INAUDIBLE).

BALDWIN: So that's the yet, because, you know, we've been watching what it was one deadline past and then another deadline. You know, Congressman Akin staying in. Then it was last week we saw Newt Gingrich out helping campaign, you know, with him. Might we see, Dana, any outside money headed into the Todd Akin campaign?

BASH: Well, from the perspective of the National Republican Party, they're hedging their bets. They're going to wait and see if it really is close. Sources I've talked to said they don't think it will be, but they're going to not close the door.

But with regard to outside groups, one of the biggest ones, Crossroads, which is Karl Rove's group, they insist that they're still not going to spend money there. But there are other outside groups. One was one that was historically backed by Senator Jim DeMint. They did a poll of their supporters online and they all said that they believe that they should back Todd Akin. And I think we have a shot of the website. So far they have raised $138,000 just in a week online.

BALDWIN: No -- there you go. BASH: So, you know, that's not going to win the race for Todd Akin, but it's more money than he had before. And we'll see how much money they raise in the next month.

BALDWIN: So, that is Missouri. Let's talk Maine. You and I have talked about Senator Olympia Snowe. She was on this show I want to say last week and, you know, she was talking to me about how -- just the frustration. You know her story. Frustration between the bickering back and forth. So after, what, six -- what, 18 years basically in the Senate, she's leaving. What does it look like now for Republicans and Democrats to grab that seat?

BASH: It's a really tough one for both parties because this is a three-way race. The moderate Republican, as you mentioned, she's retiring. And when you look at the state of play, Republicans really need to hold on to this seat because if they lose it, they're going to have to pick up another Democratic seat elsewhere to win back control of the Senate.

But the race has really put Democrats in a pickle too, Brooke, because the Democrat on the ballot, Cynthia Dill, she's way behind and she's not considered likely to win at all. It's the independent popular former Governor Angus King that Democrats have their hopes on because they think, they don't know it for sure, but they think he will caucus with Democrats and give them that sort of seat on the ledger.

It's critical -- it's a critical race. But because it's so confused and it's such a tough one for Democrats, they're just now, for the first time, a month out, spending real money there. Nearly half a million dollars is going to go into ads that are expected to go up tomorrow. We don't know the content yet, but all bets are on the fact that they are going to stay neutral when it comes to Angus King and the Democrats and simply go after the Republican there, who's doing pretty well. And his name is Charlie Summers.

BALDWIN: Huh. OK.

BASH: So it's a difficult one for both parties in Maine.

BALDWIN: So they are spending a little money in Maine and we will see those ads popping up. Dana Bash, thank you. And we'll be talking all week because it is so important, not just to focus on the presidential race, but, of course, who controls Congress.

BASH: And this is the real nail biter. It's a real nail biter.

BALDWIN: Yes, it is. It is. Dana, we'll talk tomorrow. Thank you so much.

Coming up here, California becomes the very first state to ban a therapy aimed at quote/unquote "curing being gay." Some claim the therapy works. Others say there is absolutely no scientific proof that there the therapy is at all beneficial.

I'll speak live with the therapist about his first hand experience with the program and why he believes it should not be banned in his state of California. Don't miss this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Critics call it the cure, quote/unquote, "that only makes you worse." Reparative therapy is the official name for treatment that aims to turn someone who is gay straight.

Now it has been banned in California. This is the first state in the nation that has done this for kids and for teenagers. Governor Jerry Brown signed this ban in into law over this past weekend and he tweeted about it.

Let me read one of his tweets. Quote, "This bill bans non- scientific, quote, "therapies" that have driven young people to depression and suicide."

Joining me is David Pickup, a reparative therapist and spokesman for the National Association of Research and Therapy of Homosexuality, he is getting mic up. We'll bring him in, in just a moment.

Also with me right now is CNN's senior medical correspondent Elizabeth Cohen. So, Elizabeth, as we await David, just begin with what we know about this so-called reparative therapy.

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, the American Psychological Association had a task force that took a long look at this and here's what they came up with. They said there are no good studies showing that it works or doesn't work so no good studies showing that this works.

They say some people have been harmed by it, depression, other problems. And this is a quote, "there is insufficient evidence to support the use of psychological interventions to change sexual orientation."

BALDWIN: OK.

COHEN: Plainly spoken.

BALDWIN: Hold that thought. We have David. David, you with me?

DAVID PICKUP, NATIONAL ASSOCIATION FOR RESEARCH AND THERAPY FOR HOMOSEXUALITY: Yes, I'm here, thank you.

BALDWIN: Hi, David, nice to have you on. Welcome. Of course, we brought you on because I want to get your reaction to this legislation, this now law in effect in California.

But first just explain to me as a reparative therapist, give me an example, parents come to you with say in the case of a minor and what do they say, what do they ask for?

PICKUP: The parent asks for, first of all, what fits for the child? The parent says that the child is distressed usually because he's had something happen to him in his life that has caused his homosexual feelings and the child who is the client most importantly confirms that. And says he needs help because he's distressed over homosexual feelings.

BALDWIN: So that's an example of what a potential client, a potential patient comes to you and seeks help. But this is -- this is personal for you, David, because not just -- you're not just a therapist, you underwent this treatment and from what I understand this is still a journey. Can you explain why you sought this therapy?

PICKUP: Yes. Reparative therapy, now I'm talking about authentic reparative therapy, the other side of this issue will label this quackery and put this all in a ring of things that just aren't true, but I'm talking about authentic profound, in my case, psychodynamic reparative therapy.

Reparative therapy helped save my life. My depression, clinically depressed twice, went down. My anxiety went down. My self-esteem went up. My confidence in my own gender identity went up and was more secured in me over a period of years with this therapy.

I was sexually abused as a child and emotionally abused. So if I was still a minor and not allowed to -- to undergo treatment for something that, for me was -- was -- did not represent who I was, then it would be an egregious abuse in my opinion. That's what happened to me is that I had success.

BALDWIN: And I am sorry to hear about your abuse, but were you gay and wanted to be straight?

PICKUP: No, I was never gay identified. Like there are many thousands of people all over the world, probably multiple thousands, who believe that for them there is a cause and effect nature of homosexuality.

And usually it is in the -- happens because of gender -- a severe gender identity inferiority, lack of emotional -- unmet needs from the time one is a child from usually the same sex parent, and there is a lot of inner wounds that we discover in therapy.

When the short version is when those wounds get healed, the homosexual feelings, we don't force them away, they naturally spontaneously dissipate.

BALDWIN: David, I just have to press you on that because let me just first quote the governor of California because you mentioned the word quackery and a lot of people are shaking their heads thinking there is no way this could possibly work.

The practices have no basis in science or medicine and they will now be relegated to the dust bin of quackery, your governor, David, is calling what you do quackery. Can you just react to that and tell me how this new law will affect what you do?

PICKUP: Yes. Let me tell you what kind of governor we have now. So, for instance, if a child is -- let me tell you first, any good competent therapist knows that homosexual feelings can result when one -- I'm talking about boys now, when one is raped or sexually molested.

Later in life, those feelings come up. So what our governor decided now that he knows best that the kind of profound affective therapy is quackery that handles this kind of situation.

BALDWIN: David, how about the American psychiatric -- forgive me, I'll add on to the governor, the American Psychiatric Association says the potential risk of so-called reparative therapy is great including depression, anxiety, self-destructive behavior, reparative therapy, this is the truth wins out, reparative therapy is junk science being used to justify religious beliefs.

PICKUP: Yes, including the APA because you didn't quote them correctly, you didn't quote the conclusions of their findings, which says there is no proof that SOCE causes harm.

BALDWIN: Let me bring in -- I appreciate you telling me I'm misquoting something, but I am quoting something correctly and Elizabeth Cohen, let me bring you in. This is our senior medical correspondent, talking about this before. Can you respond to that?

COHEN: The American Psychological Association, I have their report right here and they say there is insufficient evidence to support the use of psychological interventions to change sexual orientation.

PICKUP: Exactly.

COHEN: They say --

PICKUP: Exactly, insufficient evidence.

COHEN: Sir, I want to ask you a question, you said something that was intriguing, you said if a boy is abused by a man, therapy will help him get out of any homosexual feelings that he has. Well, if a girl is raped by a man, do we give her therapy to get rid of heterosexual feelings? I mean, the therapy is to get -- not the orientation.

PICKUP: Certainly not. I'm not -- I'm not going to answer a question like that. They're irresponsible. We do competent therapy, therapy that truly works.

And for the governor to sign into law that continues the potential unconsciously unintentionally but continues the sexual abuse and the heartache of these children who walk in my office who are crying, depressed, lonely, gender identity confused and sexually confused.

For them to have a bill that says, no, we can't even talk about these issues, we can't do anything to help these children resolve their homosexual feeling and maximize their heterosexual potential, that's the height of political and therapeutic irresponsibility.

COHEN: Sir, maybe they're upset about it because their parents have rejected them. Maybe they're upset about -- PICKUP: That's not what they're telling me.

COHEN: The parents are bringing in to see you, and it is well known what you do. So maybe they're upset because their parents are giving them a hard time about being gay. There are plenty of gay kids out there that are perfectly happy.

PICKUP: Let me ask you a question, how do we know that for sure? You know that one way for sure, you ask the client, the client rules.

BALDWIN: In this case -- in this case, let's stick with the law.

PICKUP: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. We don't let parents --

BALDWIN: Sir. No, no, no, no. Sir, with all due respect, this is my show. You're a guest on my show. My question to you finally is simply that this is regarding minors, this isn't adults.

Adults can still continue to come to you and seek out the reparative therapy. My final question, I hear you opposed to this law, are you going to challenge it?

PICKUP: Yes, we are, but you just evaded the question here.

BALDWIN: You don't ask us questions. With all due respect --

PICKUP: Are you going to let me talk?

BALDWIN: Would you answer my question?

PICKUP: Yes, I would be happy to if you let me answer the questions you already asked. The question is do we force clients into this therapy based on what their parents say?

Absolutely not, we prevent parents from doing that. We recommend they don't get therapy for that. Now to your second question, what was it again?

BALDWIN: My question is, will you be challenging the law?

PICKUP: Yes, we're announcing today and you are maybe to your benefit the first television station to note that the National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality is filing a major lawsuit.

We have also individual therapists and individual minor clients who are now plaintiffs signed up for the lawsuit and it will be filed with liberty counsel this week.

BALDWIN: There we go. David pickup, we'll follow up with you and Elizabeth Cohen, I appreciate it. Appreciate it. Obviously --

PICKUP: Thank you very much, I appreciate it.

BALDWIN: Thank you. Well, unemployment is still high. Middle class is shrinking, so which presidential candidate will be better at turning everything around? CNN asks 17 different economists and the majority of them chose one man. Find out who.

Plus, some great news that has the Dow in very good spirits today.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: The economy is one of the biggest issues for voters this year. So, CNN money asked 17 experts and the question they posed was this. Who would be better for the economy, Mitt Romney, would it be Barack Obama.

Let's bring in Alison Kosik because she has the answers. She's standing by for me at the New York Stock Exchange. They said who?

ALISON KOSIK, CNN BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: They reluctantly said, Brooke, Romney. Romney would be better for the economy. Here's what's sad about this survey that CNN Money did, these economists weren't excited about either one of them when asked who would be better for the economy.

They asked 17 economists. Nine picked Romney, three picked Obama and I know the math doesn't add up because five couldn't commit to anybody because they said it didn't matter. They couldn't figure out who would fix the economy on their own. They just weren't enthusiastic about one candidate or the other -- Brooke.

BALDWIN: But, you and I were talking last week, Alison, because we've now learned with regard to President Obama is a job creator. Why isn't that helping him with the economists?

KOSIK: That's a good question and the answer is because hiring still isn't strong enough. Those who support Romney say, you know, there is too much regulatory uncertainty. Businesses aren't sure what is going to happen with the fiscal cliff coming up.

So they're not doing anything. They're sitting on their hands, not hiring. Another reason that these economists didn't go with Obama is political gridlock.

Some say that Romney is likely to have more success getting legislation through Congress. But, those who support Obama say the president is more likely to reduce the deficit, to cut entitlement spending like social security, but once again, just not a lot of excitement for either person, which is kind of sad.

BALDWIN: Well, let's talk about excitement on the Dow. Let's show the stocks because they have been rallying since this morning, what is it -- up 121 points now. Got a pretty important report on the manufacturing sector, what do we need to know?

KOSIK: OK, so what we got was the granddaddy of manufacturing reports and what it showed is that manufacturing is back in expansion territory, the sector is growing again. That could help boost the economy.

This is notable because it comes after three months of contraction in manufacturing. Also, you look at China, manufacturing in China, in Europe, it is going backwards it contracting so really is bucking the trend.

This is a good surprise for the U.S. because remember manufacturing is what helped get us out of the recession in 2009. We saw activity picked up, hiring picked up. We saw the trend continuing. We want to see that continue to help the economy move forward with a lot more momentum.

BALDWIN: We like it. We like the direction. Alison Kosik, thank you very much.

There are a lot of protests over Mahmoud Ahmadinejad in the United States this last week for the U.N. General Assembly. A cameraman for the president of Iran is now saying he doesn't want to go back home to Iran, he wants to stay here. Hear what he just did to make that happen.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Entire neighborhoods are being levelled by bulldozers in the Syrian city of Hama. They are the targets of Syrian security forces.

Thousands of people have fled their homes to avoid the heavy shelling, but now have no homes to return to. The aftermath is a grim, grim scene. So far, 120 buildings destroyed. Opposition groups say 127 people have been killed in Syria today. That number includes 12 children.

And a security forces continue to shell Syrian neighborhoods, civilian neighborhoods in Syria, I should say, Syria's foreign minister blasts international calls for the country's president to step down in a fiery speech at the United Nations just a short time ago.

He accused the United States and its allies of supporting terrorism in Syria. CNN's senior United Nations correspondent Richard Roth joins me in New York.

Richard, we know topic of Syria very much so dominated in the conversation, this past week at the U.N. G.A. We're hearing from the Syrian government directly. What did he say?

RICHARD ROTH, CNN SENIOR UNITED NATIONS CORRESPONDENT: Well, it was a fiery speech in words, maybe not how it was delivered. Second year in a row for the Syrian foreign minister to represent his country caught in a maelstrom of violence back home.

The Syrian foreign minister blasted the United States among other countries for supporting what he calls terrorists for toppling his regime. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WALID MOALLEM, SYRIAN FOREIGN MINISTER (through translator): We also wonder to what extent the statements made by Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, the United States, France and others to what extent do these statements, which clearly incite and support terrorism in Syria with money, weapons and foreign fighters, to what extent are these in line with the international responsibilities of these countries in combating terrorism.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROTH: Syria's foreign minister said the country should talk at the negotiating table with anybody who opposes it and can be settled at the ballot box. He again said many countries are really creating the trouble inside Syrian territory.

The minister met earlier in the morning with Secretary- General Ban Ki-Moon, who in a statement, the U.N. put out, says the secretary-general told the minister about the problems with continued killings, massive destruction, human rights abuses, secretary-general noted the violence could prepare -- should be reduced to prepare for a political process there.

This type of strong words, Brooke, you don't often hear in the typical statement the U.N. puts out after the secretary-general meets with one of the hundreds of world leaders at this general assembly session.

BALDWIN: OK, so this is Syria. What about Iran? What about this cameraman for Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, the Iranian president, his final time, you know, in New York, as president, and so this cameraman is applying for asylum in the U.S., correct?

ROTH: That's right. There is always interesting sidelines and side lights to the big general assembly week and we have one left behind so to speak, an Iranian cameraman, part of the 100 plus delegation of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad of Iran has requested asylum in the united states.

He did not go back to Tehran with the rest of delegation Thursday evening. He's allowed to stay here while the case is deliberated on.

The cameraman's name, Hasan, has a lawyer in New York who is now representing him and doing some occasional briefings for the media. But we have not spoken to the cameraman who has requested asylum here in the United States -- Brooke.

BALDWIN: Doesn't want to go home to Iran apparently. We'll follow up with you, Richard Roth, thank you very much for us at the United Nations.

Now to this, she ran for governor of California. She is the CEO of HP, Hewlett-Packard. She is a good friend and supporter of Mitt Romney.

Coming up, Meg Whitman has a little advice for the Massachusetts governor as he heads into Wednesday's hugely crucial presidential debate.

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BALDWIN: Former leader Meg Whitman spent millions of her own money trying to become the governor of California. That didn't work. She lost to Democrat Jerry Brown two years ago and now leads Hewlett- Packard.

She's a successful, wealthy businesswoman who entered politics and she faced some of the very same criticisms being hurled at GOP presidential candidate Mitt Romney. Here is what Meg Whitman said when our Poppy Harlow asked her if she had any advice for Romney.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MEG WHITMAN, CEO, HEWLETT-PACKARD: I'm out of the advice business in terms of politics. Listen, I just say, you know, talk about the economy, talk about your vision for the future, of how you want to have -- put in place the policies that are going to have this economy come roaring back.

So, you know, unemployment will drop, businesses will hire, and everyone will feel more secure about the future. These campaigns are -- they have their ups and downs. They're tremendously challenging.

And we always knew this was going to be a tough race against an incumbent president. So, you know, I think we have four more weeks to go in the campaign. There is a lot of ground to cover. We'll see what happens.

BALDWIN: Do you think your friend Mitt Romney is going to win?

WHITMAN: I think he's going to win because in the end I think this will turn on the economy, but lots of road ahead. And, you know, whatever happens, you know, we got to have a Congress that can work together, that can plot a great path for America and, you know, encourage entrepreneurship and encourage manufacturing back in the United States.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Poppy also went on and asked Meg Whitman what she thought of Mitt Romney's comments caught on video recently, the so- called 47 percent of Americans, ones he said are dependent on government and won't be voting for him. Here was her response to that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WHITMAN: I think he is going to win because in the end, I think this will turn on the economy. But lots of road ahead and you know, whatever happens, you know, we got to have a Congress that can work together, that can plot a great path for America. And you know, encourage entrepreneurship and encourage manufacturing back in the United States.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Poppy also went on and asked Meg Whitman what she thought of Mitt Romney's comments caught on video, the so-called 47 percent of Americans, the ones he said are dependent on government and won't be voting for him. Here was her response to that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WHITMAN: Running for office is very tough. You know, you're on all the time. Sometimes you're not as articulated as what you should be. What I know about Mitt Romney is he deeply understands the economy. He knows how to put in place policies that will get America back to work and I have a lot of confidence in his ability to do that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Meg Whitman told Poppy she's an optimist and once the election is over, political leaders in Washington will do the right thing for the country.