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Nancy Grace
Teen Kills Grandparents for Insulting Mother
Aired October 16, 2012 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, live, Sandy Creek, Pennsylvania. A mother stunned when her 13-year-old boy shows up drunk, high and driving his grandma`s car.
Bombshell tonight. When police travel to Grandma`s about the car, they stumble onto one of the worst crime scenes they`ve ever encountered. With the table set for a pizza dinner plus the grandson`s favorite, Twizzlers and beef jerky, they find the dead body of grandmother and grandfather, both shot to death on the kitchen floor, Grandma shot from behind, Grandpa shot soon after.
Why? Their 13-year-old grandson says they called his mom, quote, "a whore."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police say a 13-year-old boy shot his grandparents dead.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Zach related that he was mad at his grandparents because they had called his mother a whore.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s actually devastating to me and my family.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Cops say Proper admitted to shooting his grandmother in the back of the head in the kitchen.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He walked behind his grandmother, put his iPod earphones in, turned his head away, raised the gun slightly and shot her.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Then waited for his grandfather to arrive home and killed him with multiple gunshot wounds.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Shooting him until the gun jammed.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Cops say Proper then stole his grandparents` car and dumped the murder weapon in a storm drain.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And drove to a cousin`s house, where he partied all night, the 7th grader behind bars.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.
Bombshell tonight, live, Sandy Creek, Pennsylvania. A mother is stunned when her 13-year-old shows up drunk, high and driving his grandma`s car. When police travel to Grandma`s about the car, they stumble onto one of the worst crime scenes they have ever encountered, the dead bodies of Grandma and Grandpa both shot to death on the kitchen floor.
Why? Their own 13-year-old grandson says they called his mom, quote, "a whore."
Straight out to Rita Cosby, investigative reporter. Rita, a 13-year- old double killer?
RITA COSBY, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: It is a shocking, horrible story! And as you said, he claims it`s all because the grandparents were, quote, "disrespecting" the mother, calling her, quote, a "whore."
And what he did -- first he shoots his grandmother in the kitchen from the back -- shoots her. He puts an iPod -- he puts the earphone in, shoots her once, kills her, then says, Grandpa, when are you coming back? And when Grandpa gets back, then he unloads on him until there are no more bullets in the gun.
It is a horrific scene. And no, he doesn`t call for help. He doesn`t do anything else. Guess what he does, Nancy? He goes, steals their car and goes out and parties all night. It is a shameless, horrific case!
GRACE: And the kicker is, the grandparents were getting his favorite meal, pizza. They went and got him Twizzlers and beef jerky so he would be happy.
COSBY: Absolutely!
GRACE: Putting those -- the iPod earphones in and then let loose on the grandmother from behind, then helping the grandfather with the groceries, bringing them into the home. And then he only quits shooting when the gun jammed, Rita.
COSBY: Yes. And also, the grandfather apparently yelled for help and screamed, wondering what the heck is going on. And when first authorities confront this kid, Nancy, he doesn`t admit to it. He says, oh, another friend did it. First he says he doesn`t know what happened, and then he says he did it all over the fact that they were disrespecting his mother, so he says, calling her a whore.
And guess what? Relatives and other people say they can`t imagine this. The grandparents, as you said, had his favorite meal out on the table! The grandfather is going out to get him a pizza! This is, apparently, by all accounts, a loving grandparent, and this is what he did. He is now charged as an adult. He`s 13 years old. But again, this crime is so horrific, Nancy, and people are stunned in this community!
GRACE: You know, I don`t know what you do with a 13-year-old killer. And I`ve had to face that myself and prosecute a 13-year-old for murder and aggravated assault. And I`ll never get over it. I remember it right now because there`s no alternative. What do you do with a 13-year-old devil?
Out to Andy Alm, the news director at WMGW. Andy, thanks for being with us. Andy, what do we know about this boy, this 13-year-old killer?
ANDY ALM, WMGW RADIO (via telephone): Well, we know, obviously, he had some problems. I mean, that`s obviously an understatement. But I don`t think anybody would have realized that it really would have been this severe, this horrific. I don`t think anybody really saw this coming.
GRACE: We are taking your calls. Out to Lynn Ann in Arkansas. How, Lynn. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Nice to talk to you.
GRACE: Likewise.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Boy, those twins are getting big.
GRACE: I know. They`re almost 5.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, no! My question is, really, what has his age got to do with anything? This is pure premeditation. He should go to jail for the rest of his life.
GRACE: You know, that is what the court seemed to think there. Out to Ellie Jostad, our chief editorial producer. How is his case going to be treated? There`s a lot of law that`s just being engaged right now. And also, we have a new U.S. Supreme Court ruling that says a mandatory life sentence, an automatic life sentence does not apply to certain juveniles.
ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: That`s right, Nancy. Right now, the way it works in Pennsylvania is hat if you`re charged with a very serious crime -- and obviously, double murder would apply -- you are automatically put into the adult system.
However, Zachary Proper can apply or request that his case be remanded back into juvenile court. Now, if that happens and he`s tried and convicted, he could get out by the time he`s 21. However, if the case stays in adult court, he could potentially get a life sentence.
GRACE: Back to you, Rita Cosby. A lot is going to be determined by the crime scene itself, whether there is premeditation, why he really unloaded all those bullets into his grandparents, why he continued shooting until the gun jammed. What did we learn from the crime scene? Take me through it, Rita.
COSBY: Well, a couple things. First, also, Nancy, first he has to go and get the gun. This is not his gun. Remember, he`s a 13-year-old, so he has to use box cutters -- I mean, uses a cutting device, gets into a safe where the gun is. So he determines it`s not something that he snapped.
He times this out, goes and gets the gun. Then we know from the crime scene and also his own admission to authorities, so we also have some of his confession statements, too, Nancy -- but at the crime scene, apparently, first, he shoots his grandmother from behind, and he tells authorities that he didn`t want to look at her, that he actually turned his back, but then aimed up towards her head, shoots her once in the back of the head is a fatal blow (ph). She`s there, drops her frying pan in the kitchen.
And then he waits. He calls his grandfather -- here`s some more premeditation. He calls the grandfather and says, Hey, by the way, when are you coming home, because the grandfather is out at this time, buying him dinner. So the grandfather says, I`m coming back with pizza in about 10 minutes.
He lays in wait, waits for the grandfather. When the grandfather comes, he grabs a pizza from him, looking like he`s going to help him. The grandfather then turns around. Then the grandfather is shot once in the shoulder, again, yells for help, and then that is when this grandson unleashes just a hail of bullets, keeps firing, keeps firing until there are no more bullets in the gun, and there are multiple gunshots that killed this grandfather, a very bloody scene, and again, both of them shot from behind.
And again, he doesn`t call the ambulance, doesn`t call 911 at this point. He then steals their car keys, goes out to a cousin`s house and parties with a cousin and another relative and friends all night long. They then drive him back to the house. He drops off the car keys and goes home and acts like nothing happened. All these things are going to work against him tremendously, Nancy.
GRACE: To Andy Alm, news director, WMGW in Meadeville. Andy, again, thanks for being with us. I was asking earlier, what do we know about this 13-year-old killer? Isn`t it true that his grades were OK, he had never had any problems at school. He even played on the school football team?
ALM: Yes, the superintendent did mention the football team. I know there are reports that he did have some trouble with the family. And obviously, it was a broken family, to some extent. His mother and father were separated. But just what would motivate him to do that I don`t think anybody can possibly know at this point.
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers. Brianne Desellier, Miami, Randy Kessler, Atlanta, Dwane Cates, L.A.
All right, Kessler, give me your best shot.
RANDY KESSLER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You know, he is a juvenile, and there is a reason as a society we believe in rehab. We think that there`s a possibility of rehabilitation. This judge has a hard decision. Is there hope for this child? If not, he`s an adult. If there is hope, he`s treated as a child.
GRACE: Whoa, whoa! Wa-wa wa-wait!
KESSLER: Yes.
GRACE: Grandmother shot -- and just -- let`s -- let`s just -- hold this thought.
KESSLER: I`m listening.
GRACE: He takes the iPod earphones, puts them in, and shoots her over and over from behind, calls Grandpa, lays in wait for him to come home, bringing him a pizza, like every Wednesday night when I get the children their pizza.
KESSLER: Horrible.
GRACE: He lays -- OK, so Brianne...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Wa-wa -- rehab on double murder?
BRIANNE DESELLIER, ATTORNEY: Yes, I think the important thing to point out here is that many adult offenders were once juvenile offenders. So in that respect, there is a somewhat high risk of repeat offense. And when you consider that together with the societal interest in not having a murderer walking the streets, I think the appropriate place for this case is clearly adult court.
GRACE: Dwane Cates?
DWANE CATES, ATTORNEY: Nancy, he`s 13 years old.
GRACE: I know that.
CATES: When you`re 13 years old, your brain -- your brain`s not fully formed when you`re 13 years old.
GRACE: Well, your trigger finger is.
CATES: The part of the brain that says that -- the part of the brain that says, Maybe I shouldn`t do that, doesn`t work. You got to get this kid a psychological evaluation. You got to find out what`s going on with this kid.
GRACE: Whoa! Second verse...
CATES: You got to find out if he can be rehabilitated.
GRACE: ... same as the first! Get a psychological...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: You know what? Yes, let`s rehabilitate him, Dwane Cates, and let him come home and baby-sit your children.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Cops say a 13-year-old murdered his grandparents...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Killed by gunshots wounds.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... because they allegedly called his mother names.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They had called his mother a whore.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Claims he stole Frost`s gun from the shed.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He then walked behind his grandmother, put his iPod earphones in, turned his head away, raised the gun slightly and shot her.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was a good kid. He was fun, energetic, caring, polite, well-mannered.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They had been killed by gunshot wounds. He called us because he was unable to get ahold of them.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s no history of something like this being possible to occur.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just dumbstruck, really didn`t know -- it`s just a -- just a horrific tragedy. And so the first reaction was, This possibly can`t be true.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: These things take place all over our society, and it really, unfortunately, isn`t as shocking as one would expect.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls. A 13-year-old killer, a double killer. And to top it all off, the cherry on top of the sundae, his victims, his loving grandmother and grandfather, gunning down Grandma as she`s in the kitchen preparing his meal, and then waits for Grandfather to come home, bringing his favorite pizza.
We are taking your calls. To Pat Brown, criminal profiler and author. Pat, weigh in.
PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER: Wow, what a cold-blooded psychopath, who went out for a thrill kill. This -- this -- you know, I can tell you he`s lying about not looking at his grandmother when he shot her. That was his big thing. He had his iPod on. He was listening to music. He put a musical score to blowing away his grandmother.
This was so exciting to him, which is why after he finished off the grandmother, he took take of the grandfather, and then he went partying. This was the biggest, most exciting day of his life. That boy does not need to see the light of day ever again.
GRACE: Let`s talk for a moment about what life is like in juvenile, in juvenile hall. They go to school. They have three meals a day plus snacks. They have recreation. They have recess. It`s like they`re at a regular kids` school. Forget about the double murder. Will he be treated as an adult in adult court? Will he face an adult sentence?
Back to Rita Cosby, investigative reporter. Everything I know about this kid is good. I don`t know anything bad except the double murder. He played on the school football team. He did OK at school. True, as Andy Alm tells us, his parents were separated. You can say that for over 50 percent of America.
So what sets him apart? What drives him over the edge to make this 13-year-old boy, as she just said, Pat Brown, put it to a musical score with the iPod earphones so he doesn`t see his grandmother`s face when he guns her down, when the blood flies all over the kitchen, as she falls down on the kitchen floor with her frying pan?
COSBY: It is an incredible thing when you think about it. And the only thing, Nancy, in his background, there are some reports that he had some issues at school, a couple minor suspensions -- again, as you point out, minor.
But what he claims -- and this is just so sickening, and I know it`s just -- it`s so upsetting -- he claims that they disrespected his mother. Again, there`s no history of them doing that. People say that this couple never fought, that they were not the kind of people to make this kind of language. It doesn`t even matter.
But he`s claiming that the motive was, suddenly, they`re sort of disrespecting the mother and using the term that she was a whore, and that`s what drove him to snap. Even his own father says, I don`t know what happened to my son. He is crazy. He needs help. That`s a minor comment.
GRACE: Well, when you talk about within the home, that the grandparents had called the mother a whore -- to Pat Brown. Do you believe that? Because first of all, he steals the grandmother`s car after he guns her down in the kitchen, and the grandfather, too. It`s all pre-planned. He finds the grandfather`s gun where it`s locked away. He cuts it open with box cutters while the grandfather is away. And he waits.
Then he tells police he doesn`t know what happened. Then he says a friend committed the murder, and finally comes clean. Why should I believe the word "whore" was ever used?
BROWN: Absolutely. This is a typical blaming the victim. And you know, this whole crime reminds me of "A Clockwork Orange," if you remember that movie, where it was about being thrilled to watch people die. This boy clearly wanted to see this.
I would look back in his life to see what kind of fantasies he had, what kind of violent fantasies he`s been, you know, working on for the last couple of years.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: George Frost, age 69, and his 67-year-old wife, Dorothy, died in their neat home decorated with fall mums on Polk (ph) Cutoff (ph) Road. State police got a call from their son, Ryan. Zachary had told Ryan, his stepfather and his mother, Karen (ph), that his friend killed his grandparents, then quickly changed his story when police confronted him at his mother`s home in Oil City (ph), saying he did it. He killed his grandparents.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Cops say a 13-year-old murdered his grandparents because they allegedly called his mother names. Zachary Proper allegedly told cops he walked up behind his 67-year-old grandmother, put his iPod earphones in his ears and then shot her in the head. Cops say when Proper`s grandfather, 69-year-old George Frost, returned home, Proper took a pizza from his hands and began shooting him, as well.
According to the criminal complaint, Proper told cops he fired the gun at his grandfather until the gun jammed. Cops say Proper, who reportedly used a bolt cutter to retrieve his grandfather`s gun, then stole his grandparents` car and dumped the murder weapon in a storm drain.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Zachary Proper in the 7th grade at Oil City middle school played on a youth football team. Makes sense for a 13-year- old. Zachary Proper is also charged with murdering his grandparents. Zach related that he was mad at his grandparents because they had called his mother a whore.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Listen to this obituary that I looked up. Dorothy Frost was first and foremost a homemaker. She worked for a time at the Voyager Inn and the Cranberry Mall and was a nanny for many years. She was the, quote, "queen of her home," meticulous at home decorating, cleaning, baking, caregiver, never-ending supply of patience. She enjoyed her flower garden and watching hummingbirds, camping with her family. She and her husband treasured their times at Myrtle Beach, going dancing. She was a member of St. Patrick Church. She loved her children and her grandchildren.
Tonight, sitting behind bars is her 13-year-old grandson, charged with shooting her with his earphones in, listening to music, from behind as she prepared his favorite meal, as he waited for his grandfather to come home with his favorite pizza. In a neighborhood that looks straight out of a Norman Rockwell painting, double murder.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police say a 13-year-old boy shot his grandparents dead.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Zach related that he was mad at his grandparents because they had called his mother a whore.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s actually devastating to me and my family.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Cops say Proper admitted to shooting his grandmother in the back of the head in the kitchen.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He walked behind his grandmother, put his iPod earphones in, turned his head away, raised the gun slightly and shot her.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Then waited for his grandfather to arrive home and killed him with multiple gunshot wounds.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Shooting him until the gun jammed.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Cops say Proper then stole his grandparents` car and dumped the murder weapon in a storm drain.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And drove to a cousin`s house, where he partied all night, the 7th grader behind bars.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That -- those words, they don`t fit together, a seventh grader behind bars?
Straight out to Rita Cosby, investigative reporter. A 13-year-old charged with gunning down both grandparents. And this is not in some crazy fit. This was not out of anger, during rage. Explain what happened, Rita.
RITA COSBY, INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALIST, AUTHOR OF "QUIET HERO": Yes, it is. And as you point out, it just -- he can`t say OK, I suddenly snapped. As you point out, there are so many things here, and it is just so shocking.
Here it is, a seventh grader in the middle school, 13, not really too much in his background. I mean he had a couple of little issues with school. Very minor things. He claims that his grandparents were disrespecting his mother, calling her a whore among other things. And then he says, that`s why I decided to kill them.
So what he does -- he planned this, Nancy. First of all, he puts on gloves, too. He uses a cutter, a bolt cutter. The grandfather is nice enough to pull a four-wheeler out of the garage to do something nice for their grandson. But guess what, the grandson suddenly sees OK, well, there`s a -- there`s a bolt cutter there.
He uses the bolt cutter when the grandfather leaves to go get him dinner. He opens up the safe with the gun. This is the grandfather`s gun. When grandma is in kitchen making him dinner from behind, he sneaks upon her. He puts in his iPod ear plugs. He says he didn`t want to hear what he was about to do. And what he`s about to do is kill her. He shoots her one time from behind right in the head. She falls down on the kitchen floor, drops the frying pan.
And no, he doesn`t call for help at that point. What he decides to do is he calls grandpa and says, hey, when are you coming home? Grandpa is now getting pizza for him. Grandpa comes in about 10 minutes later. He first looks like he`s trying to help grandpa. Takes the pizza from him as he`s walking in the door, and when grandpa turns his back, then he unleashes a hail of bullets, on him.
First one time shooting him in the shoulder. Grandpa screams for help. Again he doesn`t get him help. He keeps shooting and shooting until the gun runs out of bullets.
And at that point, again, he still doesn`t call for help. What does he do? He steals the car keys. Grandpa`s car keys. He`s 13 years old. And then he drives off and he goes to a cousin`s house and he parties all night, drinking, apparently getting high. Has a great old time. Gets rid of the gun in a storm drain. Takes off the gloves -- he was wearing gloves so he certainly planned this out. Wearing gloves that he gave again to a friend at the party, says he didn`t tell anybody in the party what happened, just acted like things were normal.
And then he comes back, they drop off the car, he puts the keys inside or outside the door is what he tells authorities and goes home as if nothing happened. Just acting like things were normal. And then he comes back. They dropped off the car the next day. He puts the keys in -- near the house either inside or right outside the door, is what he tells authorities. And goes home as if nothing happened.
And then cops finally zero in on him, because what happens is, his mother says something is unusual. My son has been out drinking, he`s been high. He had the grandparents` car and then they can`t get ahold of the grandparents on the phone. The cops are sent to the house. And they realized that that boy`s grandma and grandpa are dead in the kitchen, killed with cold-blooded murder.
And at first he doesn`t admit to it either, Nancy. First he claims, OK, you know, I wasn`t -- you know, I wasn`t there. And then he blames it on a friend. And finally he confesses when he`s cornered in.
GRACE: You know, when I look at this home, again, it looks like something straight out of a Norman Rockwell painting. An all-American home. Where grandma and grandpa lived. And I`m thinking back on all the times my grandmother, Lucy, that I named my daughter after, cooked for us and she would be in the kitchen, frying something in the frying pan and we would go in and out and in and out.
I`m just imagining that this grandmother probably had no idea what was about to happen. And I hope she never knew what hit her. I hope she never knew her own grandson killed her.
Back to Andy Alm, news director with WMGW.
Andy, where is he housed right now and what do we know about that facility or about him? And I really -- based on all the lies he`s telling police, I don`t think the grandparents ever called his mom a whore. I think he made that whole thing up to justify double murder.
ANDY ALM, NEWS DIRECTOR, WMGW RADIO: Well, I -- you know, I don`t know if that`s true, but I know there has to be more to this family situation, I think, than what we know, what the cops are letting on, and what`s being released at this time.
GRACE: What do you mean by that?
ALM: And we do know he`s in the Venango County jail as an adult. And he is on -- he`s being kept separate from all the other inmates.
GRACE: Why do you say there`s got to be more to the family picture?
ALM: Well, I do know one tidbit of information that`s actually pretty interesting. His mother, the one that was allegedly being called a whore, actually came into our company, Forever Broadcasting, for a job interview as a sales representative just hours after her son was arraigned and thrown in the adult jail.
GRACE: And the point is?
ALM: Was apparently totally calm and did not let on that anything happened. I think it`s clear that there -- there`s something going on there that we don`t understand.
GRACE: I think that they have -- may have a very complicated family scenario.
ALM: Can you imagine going to a job interview hours after your son was arraigned in front of a judge?
GRACE: No, I cannot. But I also couldn`t imagine dealing with the fact that my son had done something like that. I feel that when we say the family situation is more complicated, we`re looking for reasons, Andy Alm, and I got to tell you, as a crime victim myself, a tangential victim of murder, and after prosecuting, I don`t even know how many murders I tried during the 10 years I was a felony prosecutor in Inner City, Atlanta.
After about year five, I quit. I made myself quit looking across at the defendant sitting there and wondering why would you do this? Why would you leave such a wake of pain behind you, the ripple effects going on and on and on for years. Because I never found a good motive for murder. I never found one. I never found justification for murder.
To Lisa Lockwood, former police detective, author of "Undercover Angel," weigh in, Lisa.
LISA LOCKWOOD, FORMER POLICE DETECTIVE, AUTHOR OF "UNDERCOVER ANGEL": Well, what we have here, what we`re looking at, can he be rehabilitated. I mean that`s --
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: I`m not looking at that.
LOCKWOOD: Can he be tried as a juvenile?
GRACE: I`m not looking at his rehabilitation. If he can get rehabilitated behind bars, and I hope he can, I hope he can get a degree, I hope that he can get a masters degree. In divinity for all I care. But I want justice and I don`t know what justice is when the killer is 13 years old, Lisa.
LOCKWOOD: That`s exactly my point. When you`re looking at an overall issue in the situation of a juvenile in a murder situation, can he be rehabilitated? Was it a snap? Was it in the heat of the moment? This was purely calculated. Like the criminal profiler said a little bit earlier today, he premeditated, he thought about this. He went through the steps of hiding evidence.
All of those factors key into the fact that this individual thought about it, it was calculating, and there is no rehabilitation for it.
GRACE: Out to the lines. Zana, Ohio. Hi, Zana. What`s your question, dear?
ZANA, CALLER FROM OHIO: Hi, Nancy, how are you tonight?
GRACE: I`m good.
ZANA: I was just wondering how involved was his mother? Was he -- was his grandparents raising him? How was his mother`s relationship with the -- with her mother and father?
GRACE: OK. Good question. What do we know, Ellie Jostad?
ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE CHIEF EDITORIAL PRODUCER: No, his grandparents were not raising him. He lived with his mother and his stepfather who`s been together for quite sometime in their house in Oil City, which is about 10 miles from where the grandparents live. But according to the reports, he often spent time with his grandparents and was spending that particular weekend, the weekend of the murders, with them and visited them often. But no, they weren`t raising him. His parents were raising him.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: In the criminal complaint, he describes going to the grandparents` home, how his grandpa got a four-wheeler out of the shed for him, and then left to run errands. Zach spotted a bolt cutter, took it inside, removing a lock from a gun safe and took out a handgun. He then walked behind his grandmother, put his iPod earphones in, turned his head away, raised the gun slightly and shot her.
When his grandpa got home 10 minutes later, Zach tells how he helped him bring in pizza in packages. Then shot George Frost in the shoulder. He says he dumped the gun until it jammed, meaning that he kept shooting his grandpa.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: The uncle, who is very close to the family, Uncle John Beach, says he was a good kid, fun, energetic, caring, polite and well-mannered. Yet he is now being held behind bars in an adult facility, being kept separate from the adults, for gunning down his grandmother and grandfather.
To Kathryn Smerling, psychologist, joining us. Why is it that we all immediately start saying oh, what`s wrong with this picture, what`s wrong with the family? And everybody is zeroing in on the mother for some reason.
Now, the boy, after telling a lot of other lies to police, says he gunned down his grandparents as they were preparing his favorite meal for him, because they called his mom a whore. I don`t believe that.
KATHRYN SMERLING, PSYCHOLOGIST: I don`t believe that, either. But I do feel as though he and his mother do have a similarity in that they`re both detached from reality. What I felt when I was first listening to the story is I agree with Pat. This has the feel of a video game, of a delusional video game, and he did need a score to shoot his grandmother.
It`s a -- it`s a horrendous crime, but he is 13 years old. He is possibly a psychopath. He is a sociopath. His mother seems to have the same removal from reality that he has. And this may be a family -- a family historical tree.
GRACE: Wait a minute, hold on, hold on, wait, wait, wait, wait. Dr. Smerling, I recall after the murder of my fiance, dropping out of school, going through a horrible, horrible time. But ultimately going back to school, making the dean`s list over and over and over, going to law school, studying like a robot.
That didn`t mean that I didn`t think about Keith every single day, every single night, dreaming about him, reliving his murder. But yet I went to law school. I made law review. I had summer jobs. So why is - why is everyone seeming to say that the mother is so detached because she went for a job interview the day her son was arraigned? I don`t necessarily agree that makes her some kind of autotron that didn`t care about her son.
SMERLING: I don`t -- I don`t think it makes her anything. I`m just putting together -- I`m just kind of trying to point the dots and connect the dots. I don`t know enough about the family. I do know that this young boy did premeditate. He is possibly a psychopath and a sociopath. A 13- year-old`s brain is not fully developed at that time. I feel as though he was almost playing a video game, that he didn`t realize the consequences of what was going to happen.
GRACE: Well, to me -- unleash the lawyers. Brianne Desellier, Randy Kessler, Dwayne Case.
Kessler, to me, that makes juvenile killers, juvenile predators even more dangerous, and I prosecuted a lot of them. I looked at them in court. Because they don`t really understand what they did.
RANDY KESSLER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Right.
GRACE: They made it under the constitution the understanding of the nature of the crime. But they`re not fully formed, as Dr. Smerling has just said. The killing means nothing to them. It`s like they played a freaking video game.
Kessler, why do I want him out rehabbed? You bring him home, you let him cut your grass.
KESSLER: That`s why we treat juveniles different than adults.
(CROSSTALK)
KESSLER: If you don`t believe in rehabilitation, then let`s just put them all to death and put them all in jail forever and have no rehabilitation.
GRACE: I didn`t say put him to death. I didn`t say put him to death.
KESSLER: Well, why put him in jail --
GRACE: Did I say that?
KESSLER: No, but why put them in jail if they can`t be rehabbed? Why do anything other than end their life and then they`re not a problem anymore? I mean --
GRACE: You rehab him. You let him become a law clerk at your law firm.
KESSLER: No, let`s see what --
GRACE: What about it, Desellier?
BRIANNE DESELLIER, ATTORNEY: Yes, I mean I don`t know whether or not this guy can be rehabilitated. But what I -- I have a strong feeling that this eight-year period, because the bottom line is, he will be released from the juvenile system`s custody at age 21. And I don`t know if eight years is a sufficient period of time to rehabilitate a murderer.
GRACE: Well, you know, Dwayne Cade, I will say this one juvenile that I prosecuted, I recall distinctly the moment he got out he committed armed robbery and gunned down some other people. When I saw him in court the second go around, he was pacing back and forth like a caged animal, and I know that sending a juvenile to jail does not rehabilitate them. In fact, it may make him even worse. But what`s my alternative? Letting him out so he can prey upon more innocent people?
DWAYNE CASE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: There`s no -- there`s nothing here to say that he`s going to prey on more innocent people. We don`t have enough information in this case.
GRACE: So two dead bodies is not enough for you?
(CROSSTALK)
CASE: We`re just at the very beginning of this case. Well, it isn`t enough for me. Like the -- like the previous lawyer said, let`s just kill him then. Let`s just get it over with. But we live in America, and part of the criminal justice system --
GRACE: OK. Number one, I`m not entertaining any sarcasm.
CASE: -- as for rehabilitation.
GRACE: I`m talking about two elderly murder victims and a 13-year-old boy. So just drop the theater and the sarcasm.
I`m asking you, what are the alternatives in America today? You can either cut him loose and let him walk or send him to jail, because our Congress and our legislatures don`t give money to help boys like this. Those are my only two choices.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN BEACH, UNCLE OF BOY ACCUSED OF KILLING GRANDPARENTS: It`s actually devastating to me and my family. He was a good kid. He was fun, energetic, caring, polite, well-mannered.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Polite, well-mannered, energetic murdered his grandparents. That`s the rest of that sentence or it should be.
I want to go to a special guest, medical examiner Dr. Bill Manion, joining me tonight from Philadelphia.
Bill, is there any chance that the grandmother would have been able to turn around and see who killed her? Or would she have been dead immediately?
DR. BILL MANION, M.D., MEDICAL EXAMINER, BURLINGTON COUNTY, NJ: Well, usually a gunshot wound to the head causes immediate unconsciousness. And then she would have bled out within a minute or so. So it`s like -- you know, we would say she was killed instantly if we were talking to family members. And --
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: And Dr. Manion, how will forensics determine how the murders really played out in the home?
MANION: Well, yes. We still have to be very careful here and look at this forensically and make sure that everything does match. That he really is the perpetrator and he`s not confessing for someone else.
I`m also concerned about his mother -- his relationship with his mother. Did his mother speak badly of the grandparents? Did his mother say, your grandparents called me a whole. What type of relationship they all have? Because most --
GRACE: Why is nobody mentioning the dad?
MANION: That`s true. That`s true. We don`t know anything about the real father here or the stepfather. So there`s still a lot to investigate. But it certainly is a very interesting case.
I was raised by my grandparents so I feel personally deeply about this. And I just can`t imagine someone doing this to their grandparents. At first flash, it just seems impossible.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: American hero. Marine Lance Corporal Rick Centanni, just 19, Yorba Linda, California. Purple Heart, Navy Marine Corps Achievement Medal. Loved football, dreamed of being a police officer just like his dad. Parents John and Sarah, brothers Billy, Chris, Alex, Ian.
Rick Centanni, American hero.
And happy birthday tonight to the greatest brother in the world, Mackie Grace.
Back in 60 seconds.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Straight to the lines. Rita in New York. Hi, Rita. What`s your question?
RITA, CALLER FROM NEW YORK: Hi, Nancy. Yes, I was wondering this was closely to the other boys who killed the grandparents. And I was wondering if you think it had anything to do with really being the name calling or if he really had premeditations just to do this?
GRACE: Well, you know, Rita in New York, it seems to me like he just wanted to commit a murder. Because calling your mom a whore, yes, it`s bad. I could see a big family argument about that. I could see him storming out and never going back again. But the fact that he used box cutters to get into his grandfather`s gun and then gunned down the grandmother, gunned down the grandfather.
And also I doubt very seriously -- back out to you, Rita Cosby, investigative reporter -- that there`s a scenario where both grandparents were calling the mother a whore. So why kill both of them?
(CROSSTALK)
COSBY: And the other thing, Nancy, no neighbors reporting screaming or shouting in the neighborhood. So far, we were talking about the father earlier, everyone is saying that they had a really good relationship.
The other thing heart breaking, Nancy, this grandfather was diagnosed with lung cancer a few years ago and told everybody he probably had about a month to live. And what he was living for was his daughter getting married next month. He didn`t die from cancer. He died from his grandson.
GRACE: Everyone, "DR. DREW" is up next. I`ll see you tomorrow night 8:00 sharp Eastern. Until then, good night, friend.
END
