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Dr. Drew
High-Powered Sex Scandal; Extreme Cougars
Aired November 13, 2012 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I love you, darling.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I love you.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST (voice-over): What does this 54-year-old woman see in this 21-year-old kid? He is her daughter`s former junior high boyfriend and they are sleeping together.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There are a lot of people who use the word "cougar".
PINSKY: This 76-year-old woman wants men in their 20s and loves sex on the first date.
They are part of a new TLC show called "Extreme Cougar Wives." Suppose they were on the prowl for your young son.
But first, a sex scandal at the highest levels of government. You`ve seen it before with Jon Edwards, Anthony Weiner, and President Clinton.
Why do men cheat? Is yours cheating? And how many are wondering if they`ll be found out.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Retired General David Petraeus was the head of the CIA until he resigned last week. He admitted to an extramarital affair with the woman who wrote a book about him. It not only cost him his job but he`s once impeccable reputation.
Joining us, Kim Serafin, senior editor for "In Touch Weekly", and relationship coach Laura Baron in the studio with me.
First off, out to you, Kim. Break down for us what happened with this affair, how it went down, and what`s going on now.
KIM SERAFIN, IN TOUCH WEEKLY: Yes, there`s a lot going on. So, just stay with me for a second.
Of course, you mentioned General Petraeus. Him stepping down from his post as CIA director because it was discovered that he had this relationship with his biographer Paula Broadwell.
Now, what we`re finding out is that it all really started because of an investigation into e-mails that this woman Jill Kelley, a Tampa socialite, was receiving. She felt these e-mails were threatening to her. So, she asked a friend of hers with the FBI to investigate.
That`s sort of what opened up this enormous thing which is leading to a lot of things. It reminds me after the Tiger Woods scandal. I think it was Jay Leno who made a joke saying Tiger Woods hit a tree on Thanksgiving and 21 women fell out.
(LAUGHTER)
SERAFIN: That`s sort of what`s happening right now just because this one woman asked her friend from the FBI to investigate these e-mails she was getting that were threatening. It led to Paula Broadwell. It led to discovering the relationship between Broadwell and Petraeus.
It also led to General Allen, this investigation into his e-mails between him and Kelley, 20,000 to 30,000 documents. It doesn`t look like there`s anything really terrible. It looks like they were friends.
Then the FBI agent was also removed from the case or was investigated because he sent a topless photo of himself to Jill Kelley. So, so many different angles.
And really, I think there are three questions basically. Number one, was there anything illegal? Number two, was there any sort of national security risk here? And number three, is this just something we`re concerned about and fascinated by because it`s spies and sex and it seems like this is a script for the ABC TV show "Scandal" and not a real life situation?
PINSKY: Or the CIA and the FBI are just a party.
SERAFIN: Yes.
PINSKY: But, Laura, listen. These are all married people. It`s weird that this Jill Kelly, is that her name, I believe --
LAURA BARON, RELATIONSHIP COACH: Yes.
PINSKY: -- was receiving threatening e-mails from Broadwell. That she -- wonder if she was involved with Petraeus as well.
BARON: Right.
PINSKY: The bigger question here is what`s going on with our leadership? Is this something we should just to come to expect, that people in positions of authority are going to cheat or should we hold them to a higher standard?
BARON: Well, we can hold them to a higher standard, but they`re going to cheat. I mean, that`s just the bottom line. You give a man access and a bunch of women around him who wanted attention, the guy is going to cheat.
PINSKY: Kim, you agree with that?
SERAFIN: Well, you know, I think the issue here, yes, people are fascinated by that sort of salacious aspect, you know? And, look, I work in Hollywood, we see this in Hollywood all the time. We`ve seen this with sports figures. I mentioned Tiger Woods before.
I think you look at it, though, that this is the military. And I think if you look at every institution that people maybe have the most faith in, military is really at the top of the list. You know, people look at the presidency or Congress or Hollywood or sports and say, we don`t really know how much faith we have in that. But the military -- I mean, you look at these two top generals, these people who are American heroes. And I think that`s also where this is coming from.
PINSKY: Oh, but, Laura, why shouldn`t heroes have a chance to have a little fun on their free time?
BARON: Exactly.
PINSKY: Exactly? I`m just kidding.
BARON: But the truth is, they may be heroes but they are human first.
PINSKY: Yes, but listen -- I -- personally, I will go on the record. I think this is -- I`m going to use a strong word: sick. It`s sick.
BARON: Sure.
PINSKY: It`s disturbed relationships. It`s disturbed behavior.
And the military has restraints in place for its generals not to be -- not to have infidelity or they lose their job. He lost his job because of exactly what you`re talking about, Laura. Guys in power have access. There`s got to be restraints in place so they don`t do the wrong thing.
BARON: But the restraint comes with the zipper. It does not come with the contract.
PINSKY: It comes with the zipper.
BARON: Yes. It means the dude has to pull up his zipper and that`s how he has restraint.
PINSKY: Yes.
BARON: It is the only thing --
PINSKY: I thought you said the guys can`t do -- you said they can`t do that. They`re going to cheat no matter what.
BARON: If he`s a cheater going in, I don`t care what that contract says, that man is going to cheat.
PINSKY: Let`s go to --
BARON: And women will, too, by the way.
PINSKY: Well, we`re going to talk about that. Listen, stay with us tonight. We`re going to get into what makes a cheater. We`re going to talk to cheaters. And we`re going to talk about women -- oh, you guys are so sneaky.
BARON: You`re welcome. You`re welcome, Drew. We`re climbing up on you.
PINSKY: It`s how you get away with cheating.
Nicole in Manitoba -- Nicole, go ahead.
NICOLE, CALLER FROM MANITOBA: Hi. My personal story is I`m the other woman and I`ve been seeing him for six weeks. He`s been married for 15 years. He`s 12 years older and it`s literally the best thing I`ve ever done in my life.
PINSKY: The best thing ever? Does he have kids?
NICOLE: Yes, he does. He has two, 12 and 13.
PINSKY: Aren`t you concerned that you`re going to ruin their lives?
NICOLE: No, because they`re never going to find out.
PINSKY: They`re never going to find out?
BARON: They will. But they will.
First of all, what makes this the best thing in your life?
NICOLE: Because he treats me like I want to be treated. He treats me better than any guy ever has. He treats me like gold.
BARON: Of course. And that is where those first six weeks are amazing. And, you know what? It could be six years. But at the end of the day --
PINSKY: He`s staying with his wife.
BARON: -- he will stay with his wife.
PINSKY: Absolutely.
BARON: Or at the end of the day, if he doesn`t stay with this wife, or at the end of the day, if he doesn`t stay with his wife, and you break up his family -- those kids, that wife, that community is going to be looking at you and you`re going to be wearing the scarlet letter. You get that?
NICOLE: Yes. But if she treated him better, he wouldn`t be --
PINSKY: No. That`s what he tells you.
BARON: Maybe.
PINSKY: Nonsense.
BARON: But maybe. But that`s not your thing to fix, babe.
PINSKY: By the way, anyone who`s involved with a married man who`s being mistreated by his wife, he tells you those tales -- baloney. If he`s really unhappy, he`ll leave his wife and then go with you. That`s fine. But in the meantime --
BARON: Yes, I mean, if he`s honorable dude.
NICOLE: It`s still hotter if he`s still with her though.
PINSKY: It`s hotter? That`s interesting.
BARON: It`s hotter? But maybe that is more about where you are and what you`re expecting for yourself. You need to raise your level of expectation, babe.
PINSKY: You don`t like to have -- this is what we call intimacy disorder, Nicole.
BARON: Yes.
PINSKY: If you can`t be with somebody completely, if you`re so fearful they`re going to leave you, you`ve already got this guy away. He`s tucked away in a relationship where he can never leave you because he`s never with you in the first place. So, that`s what tends to happen in these kinds of relationships.
Have to take a quick break, Nicole. Thank you for that call.
Laura`s got me all heated up here.
Kim, thank you for that update.
We`re going to talk about what the chances are that someone is cheating on you. Again, Laura said thank you for being so sneaky. We`re going to talk about how sneaky ladies are.
BARON: Oh, come on.
PINSKY: And later on, an older woman who dates very young women -- young men, rather. We`re going to talk to some what are being called extreme cougars and their boyfriends. Back after this.
BARON: I like it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WILLIAM J. CLINTON, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: I did not have sexual relations with that woman, Miss Lewinsky.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIPS)
ELIOT SPITZER (D), FORMER NEW YORK GOVERNOR: In the past few days, I have begun to atone for my private failings with my wife, Silda, my children, and my entire family.
ANTHONY WEINER (D), FORMER NEW YORK CONGRESSMAN: I apologize first and foremost to my wife and to my family.
JOHN EDWARDS (D), FORMER U.S. SENATOR: And if I were to find the person who should be accountable for my sins, honestly, I don`t have to go any further than the mirror. It`s me. It is me and me alone.
(END VIDEO CLIPS)
PINSKY: It is always these gentlemen.
Welcome back. We`re taking your calls at 855-373-7395.
David Petraeus admitted to cheating on his wife. What does it feel like to be the other woman?
A reminder here: Laura Baron is with us and she made a comment before the break -- what did you say? It`s making the rounds on Twitter, I want you all to know. It`s coming as a #sotrue. Quote, "Restraint comes with a zipper."
BARON: Oh, they`re my girls.
PINSKY: This was your point. Meaning the zippers need to stay up.
BARON: That is right. I mean, we say that if the military has contracts, that they`re supposed to be morally sound. No. Their pants need to be morally sound.
PINSKY: That would make life simple if we could just -- no. The cameramen are saying it doesn`t make sense.
BARON: No?
PINSKY: Joining me now is Jill Di Donato. She`s author and columnist for "The Huffington Post - Women."
She wrote, "I was the other woman."
Jill, tell us this story and how it felt.
JILL DI DONATO, WRITER, HUFFINGTONPOST.COM: Well, I was the other woman. And how did it feel? I think at first it felt tremendously exciting and incredibly thrilling but very cheap at the same time. I think glitz and glamour are two sides of the same coin. And I think the more intense at the beginning, the faster it fizzled. And it fizzled.
And as a writer, I feel like I get very swept up in fantasy. And certainly when you are the other woman, you are living a fantasy. Like you were saying, he`s not going to leave his wife ever. And if things were so terrible at home, then, you know, it`s really not your job as the other woman to assuage the situation. So --
PINSKY: Jill, not only that, though. I got to say -- people need to assess their own stuff. Now, I read your article, and you mentioned that you came from a family who I believe where your dad had cheated. Now here you are as an adult trying to make that right by being the other woman. You knew that was in your past and yet you could not stop, is that right?
DI DONATO: Absolutely. I mean, I think not only did my dad cheat on my mom, but I was in a long-term relationship where I was cheated on. And my life was devastated.
PINSKY: All right, so stop. Please, Jill, stop.
Everybody, please learn from what Jill is telling you guys. Because when things are horrible in childhood, we are magically attracted to those circumstances that recreate. We either are the perpetrator or the victim. We go to one role or the other and it`s the being cheated on or being cheated with.
That is not a solution to these kinds of problems. Laura, you agree?
BARON: I absolutely degree.
PINSKY: Back to the zipper pants.
BARON: It is. Back to the zipper parts. Also, I`m so glad that Jill shared that story because affairs do look sexy on the outside. Let us not pretend -- being taken out and being wooed all the magic in the beginning. But at the end of the day, it is about taking care of your own stuff.
PINSKY: At the end of the day, the intensity, which is not love, it`s just intensity, is left with emptiness because that`s going nowhere.
I want to take a call from Shannon in Illinois.
Shannon, go ahead.
SHANNON, CALLER FROM ILLINOIS: Hi, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Shannon.
SHANNON: I`ve been the other woman on and off for 10 years. We just ended the affair this summer. I was never under the illusion he was going to leave his wife.
We ended things well. And we both felt it was a phase in our life we needed to get past. And he feels his marriage has never been stronger since then.
PINSKY: All right. So there`s a good story.
Kim, you`ve been quiet. You want to ring in on this one?
SERAFIN: Well, you know, I think what`s interesting is that one of the reasons people are fascinated with this issue right now with General Petraeus and Paula Broadwell, people are looking at them as two incredibly smart people. And I think that`s why you think, how could this happen? These are really smart people.
Even you opened up the show or opened up the segment at least showing all the politicians that we know to be very intelligent men and yet they got involved in these kind of situations.
PINSKY: Kim, I love you say it that way.
I want to go to Jill.
Jill, you`re obviously a very smart woman. Smart has nothing to do with this, does it?
DI DONATO: Absolutely not. I mean, I think -- I not only like to think of myself as an intelligent woman but an introspective woman. You know, I`m someone who`s actually in therapy and, you know, in attachment therapy and I`m very in tune with the idea that, you know, I`m recreating my past. And I think I reached a level of frustration with why can`t I stop doing this. You know, it`s such a compulsion.
And I think I did end it because I felt, you know, I just -- I have to just draw the line and say no. Like much like an addict just has to say no.
PINSKY: That`s exactly right. Even in treatment, you`ve got to eventually make a conscious decision.
Come on, Laura. The story here -- have you ever done anything like this?
BARON: Yes, no.
PINSKY: Yes, no?
BARON: I actually have not. But I`ve coached many people through affairs, and the only thing I could say is they happen.
And Jill like you said, they happen to smart people.
PINSKY: Yes.
BARON: Capable people.
But the bottom line is that you -- as you said, you need to assess your own stuff. And you need to make sure you`re getting into relationships that matter, that you`re honest about. If you were going to have an affair, then set it up upfront.
PINSKY: Here`s what I don`t understand, is that any -- whether it`s a man or woman doing this, not only are they mistreating somebody they supposedly love. It`s not how you treat somebody you love.
BARON: Sure.
PINSKY: You don`t do that.
And it`s a direct assault on their kids and the whole family is at risk. The very family you spent years building is jeopardized by the zipper coming down. I like the zipper pants metaphor.
BARON: Right. But here`s the thing, when you drop it, when you drop the jeans, you are in the moment. You are in the moment.
Women need the romance. Men need to take over. Men need that power.
That`s what that thing is about. Nobody is thinking about did Bobby play with Elmo today? They`re thinking about how do we get this done?
PINSKY: So the train is leaving the station -- so don`t let the train leave the station.
Next up, we`re talking about women and how much they cheat and keep it on the D.L.
And later --
BARON: We are very discreet, Drew.
If you guys would move that, I`d like to read later. Does the young guy and the 70-something woman, they`re together -- how does that work out? Stay tuned.
And an extreme cougar, there she is. We`ll find out about her life and her loves after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Did you have a 13-year affair with this woman?
HERMAN CAIN (R), FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: No. I did not.
BLITZER: Did you know her for 13 years?
CAIN: Yes. But I did not have an affair.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: We are talking tonight about cheating.
Joining us is a relationship expert Matt Titus.
Now, Matt, you`ve cheating yourself. Tell us your story.
MATT TITUS, RELATIONSHIP EXPERT: Well, you know, Dr. Drew. I`m not proud of what I did in the past, and I believe it`s a function of maturity. I`m in a way different place in my life right now.
People that cheat believe they can control everything. They are usually very successful people that have more of a god complex. Not that I had a god complex --
PINSKY: Of course not.
TITUS: But you believe you can get away -- you believe you can get away with a lot more. And you`re not in tune with other people`s feelings, other family`s feelings, family members. And you just sort of react instinctively and you`re not a forward-thinking male.
PINSKY: Right.
TITUS: I`ve done that in my past. Let me tell you something. Talk about humble pie. I`ve probably eaten 30 of them recently.
PINSKY: Recently?
TITUS: So, it`s never -- well, not recently, in the past. It`s not a good thing to ever do. Again, like you said, Dr. Drew, you hurt a lot of people in the past.
PINSKY: Absolutely. But --
TITUS: There are a lot of people around you.
PINSKY: I completely agree. But Laura you brought up something interesting, which is that moment people do these acts, they lose their ability to project consequences. They can`t see past the zipper -- the metaphor.
BARON: The act.
PINSKY: Yes, the act.
And, listen, I understand. I get that. But that`s -- you know, shouldn`t that be left to the 22-year-olds? The 24-year-olds? Do we have to do that when we`re married 10 years with kids? Can`t we weigh that out? Can`t that stay with us in that moment when the intensity is there?
BARON: Yes, that would be great if red corvettes were not sold to 55- year-old men. I mean, clearly -- clearly, men need to go back to their 20s and frankly so do women. What people want no matter what age it is, is they want to be desired. They want that sense of passion, that sense of romance, that sense that what they do in that moment is completely unabridged.
PINSKY: OK. Laura, are we saying if that is not in a marriage or relationship, no one`s fault, they need to pay attention to make sure they try to cultivate that if their marriage. If they haven`t, that`s a marriage at risk?
BARON: Well, yes, it`s a marriage at risk. But I want to make the huge point that this is not your partner`s fault, by the way.
And women at home whose husbands are cheating or vice versa, this is not your bad. This is the problem of the person who is not honest enough to say in their marriage -- babe, we need to step this thing up.
PINSKY: And, Matt, you`ve made it your business to teach women how to avoid guys that are cheaters.
TITUS: Exactly. And what she`s saying, Laura, is completely true. She`s saying that these guys -- these men are completely selfish. It`s not a function of the woman that they`re with.
And so many women unfortunately blame themselves, which is really an awful situation. And it`s a problem within the person that is cheating. It`s a malfunction, it`s a shortcoming, it`s something from their childhood. They can`t blame themselves if they`re being cheated on, and there are many signs to cheat.
PINSKY: I agree with all this. However, I want to bring it back to Kim here. What we started here, we`re saying it`s a shortcoming. It`s something from their childhood, it`s a weakness. All these things, it says something about somebody`s character.
So, Kim, shouldn`t we hold our leaders accountable for this kind of behavior? And by the way, they`re representing sort of adult behavior to our children. Don`t we want them if nobody else behaving properly?
SERAFIN: Yes. And again, I think I said this before that I think after all the institutions we have, military is probably the one place people have so much faith in. And think this is why this has been so shocking to everyone, especially because this came out through a Gmail account.
I mean, look, I cover Hollywood so I know -- we`ve certainly seen naked pictures of people floated out there, people`s e-mail accounts can be hacked into. So when you see the head of the CIA using a Gmail account and all of these e-mails have been found out, I think that`s also why people take a step back and have to remember everything you put out in a text or e-mail, electronically, that`s something you have to be aware of.
PINSKY: This is now another topic of sexting and all that. We`re not getting into that tonight. But more call of your cheating and cheaters.
Then, extreme cougars. Older women who date, only much young man.
Stay with us. Be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: General Petraeus, Bill Clinton, Herman Cain, John Edwards, and Arnold Schwarzenegger -- they all did it.
Matt Titus, help us out here for the viewers at home. What are some of the warning signs that a man might be cheating?
TITUS: OK. The sexual frequency just plummets. There`s no sex. It declines. It`s not the same.
He gets very jumpy around e-mails and cell phones. You know, he`s always leaning into his computer or going on his phone when you`re not around.
Your mutual friends you have together, they start dissipating. They don`t want to be around you guys. They feel very uncomfortable.
And then he starts talking about somebody that you have no idea who it is, but this person walks on water. They`re wonderful. They`re part of the conversations when there`s no application.
He also doesn`t like in any way you to get near him. Not in a sexual way, but more or less like in an intimate physical way, you know, not emotional. So --
PINSKY: Matt, I`ve heard some guys actually early in their cheating will kind of double down because they feel guilty. They`ll bring gifts. They`ll sort of, all of a sudden, seem a little more involved (ph), but they can`t maintain that very long, is that right?
TITUS: They can`t because it gets expensive.
PINSKY: Right.
TITUS: There`s guilt gifts and then there are compliments that you`re never used to having if you`re the wife. There`s also a situation where he starts to accuse you of cheating all the time. It`s guilt he`s projecting. All these things are very easily spotted.
PINSKY: Laura, you had incredulity on your face. Hold on. Laura`s got something to say. Go ahead.
LAURA BARON, RELATIONSHIP EXPERT: Wait, I would just say although, yes, these are definitely signs of cheating. I think what this also would make is a woman unbelievably paranoid. I mean, there are guys who get in their Blackberry anyway. There are moments when you`re having sex, when you`re not having sex.
TITUS: Laura, these are new things. These are things that he hasn`t done in the past. There`s also one more, and that`s the Houdini thing. He just disappears, and he has hours where he can`t account to where he was. And when you ask him, it`s this weird answer that makes absolutely no sense.
PINSKY: Yes.
TITUS: The most unfortunate thing about this is that you make the person that you`re with so out of character and like a psycho. I wrote an article once called the case of the crazy ex, and that`s about women -- or if you`re dating a guy, he`ll always have a story about the crazy ex- girlfriend. Well, guess who made that person crazy?
PINSKY: He created that. That`s right.
TITUS: Exactly.
PINSKY: Let`s go to Gina in Colorado. Gina, what do you got?
GINA, COLORADO: Hi, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: I`m calling because I am so pissed off at this married men that think that they can have an affair, a sneaky of their, with the other woman and have a family at home and this is fake, fake life and thinks that they can get away with it. And that the other woman thinks it`s OK to do this.
PINSKY: Did somebody cheat on you?
GINA: No. It happened to my daughter. It happened to my daughter, and the whole thing is, Dr. Drew, the man that she was married to, she made him. She put him in the best position to better and further his education. So, he got a real high position, a real high position in a job.
PINSKY: This goes under, Gina, no good deed goes unpunished. That is --
BARON: So common.
PINSKY: Gina, I`m in your camp -- common?
BARON: That is so common. That is so common when a woman builds up a man and then he believes all the fluff that you are putting under his jacket, he believes it.
PINSKY: There`s something in that which is maybe don`t marry guys until they are where they intend to be in life.
BARON: Absolutely.
PINSKY: Because a lot of guys will delay getting married until they are finished sort of developing who they are in the world.
BARON: Right.
PINSKY: And then see who they want to be with when they like that.
BARON: Right.
PINSKY: If they`re already married and think, now, I want to explore, they relinquish the right to do that because they have kids, they have a wife. You can`t do that. Now, tell us the sneaky part of the women do. I`m mortified by you, guys, because let me -- hold on.
BARON: That`s not being mortified. We are gentle, lovely creatures.
PINSKY: Control room, please put the data up there for me. I want to read -- there we go. This is from the archives of sexual behavior. Women are cheating nearly as much as men.
BARON: OK.
PINSKY: The survey found that 19 percent of women stray from their relationship, up five percent from 2010 survey. Twenty-three percent of men were cheaters, up four percent from the previous year. But apparently, this -- I believe I`m quoting this correctly. In this study, 100 percent of women got away with it without being caught.
TITUS: Women are much better cheaters than men.
BARON: Obviously. I mean --
PINSKY: Obviously?
BARON: If the leader of the CIA is getting caught, then men aren`t that good at this, let`s be honest, you know?
(LAUGHTER)
BARON: But on top of that, on top of it, women --
PINSKY: What are the signs? What are the signs?
BARON: What are the signs that women are cheating?
PINSKY: Yes. There aren`t any?
BARON: Like I should tell you?
PINSKY: Yes. Tell us. Men are watching.
BARON: I think that women will pull back a lot from their relationships, because they do not want to be in the face with their spouse and lying to their face.
PINSKY: So, they don`t want to be close to the person they`re cheating --
BARON: Exactly.
PINSKY: -- pull away.
BARON: They`re not big liars. Yes. They will pull away. Maybe, they will be going out more than they normally will. I mean, there`s -- it`s the general signs of cheating that actually Matt put down to.
PINSKY: Yes.
BARON: But the differences with women is that it is an emotional connection, most often, and those emotional connections we protect. So, it`s not just like we`re sneaking off at midnight, getting our business done, and coming back home. It is --
TITUS: Can I say one thing, Dr. Drew?
BARON: In just a moment, please.
TITUS: Yes, ma`am.
BARON: Oh.
PINSKY: Please, go.
BARON: OK.
PINSKY: It`s a gradual --
BARON: Well, then.
PINSKY: It`s a gradual pulling away.
BARON: It`s a gradual --
PINSKY: Investment in something --
BARON: Exactly. Where men are much more black and white with how they establish a sexual relationship outside of their --
PINSKY: Matt, go ahead.
BARON: Please.
TITUS: I really believe that in a good relationship, it`s very, very, very rare that a woman will cheat.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Right. If she`s getting her emotional needs met, it`s relatively rare.
TITUS: Right. But a good relationship with a guy, he`ll cheat a lot more often than a woman.
PINSKY: I think the data bears that up. If women have a history of emotional disturbances, that whole disorder, or trauma growing up, abuse, they`re at risk. But if the relationship is working well, they`re getting their needs met, they`re less likely to cheat.
BARON: Yes. But I mean, there`s getting your needs met and there`s getting your needs met.
PINSKY: All right. We`ll talk about. We`ll talk about that maybe during the break.
BARON: Oh, good. I`d like to.
PINSKY: Matt, thank you very much. We`re going to switch gears. We`ve all heard about -- of the word, the term "cougars," but what about a 76-year-old grandmother dates only men in their 20s? We will meet this extreme cougar when we return. Stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HATTIE, 76, PREFERS LOVERS IN THEIR TWENTIES: There are a lot of people who use the word cougar to describe an older woman who sleeps with younger men. My lifestyle is extreme.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Twenty-five not too young?
HATTIE: You`re not too young.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I love you, darling.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I love you.
PINSKY (voice-over): What does this 54-year-old woman see in this 21- year-old kid? He is her daughter`s former junior high boyfriend, and they are sleeping together.
HATTIE: There are a lot of people who use the word cougar.
PINSKY: This 76-year-old woman wants men in their 20s and loves sex on the first date. They`re part of a new TLC show called "Extreme Cougar Wives." Suppose they were on the prowl for your young son.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY (on-camera): Now, suppose that, call us if you want to address this topic, 855-373-7395. Joining me is 54-year-old Jude and her 21-year- old partner/lover Kevin.
(LAUGHTER)
PINSKY: And we also have 76-year-old Hattie who prefers men in their 20s. They`re all stars of the new TLC reality series "Extreme Cougar Wives." Now, Hattie, I want to start with you. How young do you go, Hattie? I mean, pardon me for asking.
HATTIE: Please. Let me be liberal enough to let you know that I`ve gone up as high as 40.
PINSKY: Oh, my gosh. How can you tolerate that? Those old -- guys, how do you do that?
HATTIE: I`m just so kind.
PINSKY: You`re giving them a gift. But how young do you go is the question?
HATTIE: Well, actually, a couple of years ago, I slept with a guy who was 18. Now, I didn`t know his age. And we were talking and it was great. And I said, well, are you attracted to me? He said definitely let`s go to bed right now. I said tomorrow night. So, as he was leaving I said, and by the way how old are you?
And he said 18. So, I figured across state lines, OK. So, I was talking with my girlfriends. I said I didn`t know he was 18. I thought he was 23.
PINSKY: She was way off.
(LAUGHTER)
HATTIE: Big distinction.
PINSKY: Laura, you think Hattie`s great though. You think this is a great thing.
BARON: I think she is fantastic, and I think every woman that is watching Hattie should remember that you can feel sexy and you can feel sexual for as long as you want. It is all in spirit. I love your story, Hattie.
PINSKY: Let`s be clear. Hattie is not just sexy --
HATTIE: Thank you so much.
PINSKY: -- not just sexy in spirit. Hattie`s actually being sexy.
(CROSSTALK)
BARON: She`s getting it on.
PINSKY: Yes. Yes.
BARON: Yes.
PINSKY: So, let`s hear your guys` story. Now, Hattie, hold on one sec.
HATTIE: Are we separating the spirit from the body? Because I don`t do that.
PINSKY: No, no. There`s a joke there somewhere, but I`m not going to go for it. But hang in. I want to talk to these guys here in the studio with me. So, this is, we call it May/December sort of reunion. And my understanding is you were actually -- I think, you heard me in the tape into this piece, you were your son`s friend? Is that right?
JUDE, 54, IS 33 YEARS OLDER THAN HER LOVER, KEVIN: My daughter.
PINSKY: Your daughter`s boyfriend?
JUDE: Yes.
PINSKY: Isn`t that weird for you?
KEVIN, 21, HIS LOVER, JUDE, IS 54: You know, come to think of it, it was at first. But, you know, at the same time, we`ve only dated for about a month. And it wasn`t really love. It was more of let`s be boyfriend and girlfriend for about a month. It was more like, let`s be best friends for a month.
PINSKY: Is that junior high school and stuff?
KEVIN: Yes, yes. Exactly. We`re just kids, you know?
PINSKY: Still weird, though, for you?
KEVIN: It is kind of a little bit to think about because I`ve known her as the mother, you know? You know, but at the same time, I thought she looked -- always looked beautiful.
(LAUGHTER)
PINSKY: Well, let me tell you my -- it`s not even a concern. It`s just been my experience, and Laura, bear me up on this, is that these things often occur in women our age when they`ve been brutalized by a peer. Like they were in a marriage that was just brutality. It was just awful. And they get out of a relationship and they get out and go, no more of that. I want a toy.
(LAUGHTER)
PINSKY: You know what I mean? And then, lo and behold --
KEVIN: At least she`s enjoying it.
(LAUGHTER)
PINSKY: Right. Hat`s off to you. But, you end up -- we`re human beings and you end up falling in love, particularly, the young male oftentimes does first because you don`t want anything of it. Is that what happened here?
JUDE: Well, kind of, I guess. I didn`t have the best marriage. And it was 19 years, but we were separated at 16 years. And it took three years to get divorced.
PINSKY: Was it brutal?
JUDE: It was difficult.
PINSKY: Brutal.
JUDE: Yes.
PINSKY: Let`s use the word that women describe as Laura saying yes.
BARON: Absolutely. Absolutely. And I see that as well. You know, and it is -- this is a safe zone. It`s a safe zone that you know you`ve had more experience. You can be the teacher in this. You`re the one --
JUDE: Don`t bet on it.
(LAUGHTER)
BARON: I imagine that he brings some tricks to the table, and I know he does, by the way.
KEVIN: I`m flattered. Thank you.
(LAUGHTER)
BARON: Can I just say in a control sense that you get to feel like you have status in this relationship.
PINSKY: Well, let`s talk about how it happened. How did it go from you being your daughter`s friend to this?
JUDE: Well, it was Kevin that approached me. And we`ve known each other since he was 14.
KEVIN: Yes.
JUDE: But it was -- I mean, I was married. I was a mom. I was taking care of mom stuff. And I never would have even considered such a thing.
PINSKY: He seduced you?
JUDE: No, he didn`t seduce me. We were working together. We work on music together and I had helped him with his career before. And he went off to college. I didn`t see him for a couple years. And then, he found me again after losing me because of the divorce. And after a couple months he said, you know, I think I`m having feelings. Yes.
KEVIN: Yes. So, we lost contact for about two years. And before you know it, I decided to give her a call because I happened to find her number in, you know, my old phone book. And I said I`ve got to give her a call. And before I know it, I gave her a call and we met in the November of 2010. And before you know it, I said, well, she looks absolutely stunning.
PINSKY: So, he was a freight train. You must have been, what am I getting -- what`s going on?
JUDE: My initial response was no way, no how. Get that out of your head. It isn`t going to happen. But because of the marriage --
PINSKY: Laura, stop it.
(CROSSTALK)
KEVIN: Feeling the heat.
(LAUGHTER)
JUDE: I just didn`t have a lot of self-esteem. It was taking me while to get back --
PINSKY: Oh, he took advantage of you?
JUDE: None of that.
(LAUGHTER)
JUDE: Kevin is probably the sweetest guy I`ve ever known in my life. And, I always thought he was a wonderful young man. I always thought he was charming and sweet.
PINSKY: Well, I got to take a break. When we come back from the break, I want you to answer the question, is it fair to him? Where does this go? Talk about it. How would you feel if your son was dating an older woman? Enough perhaps to be grandmother age like Hattie. Call us now, 855-Dr.Drew5. Be right back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KEVIN: It just seems to me that I actually found what I was looking for. I love you, darling.
JUDE: I love you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HATTIE: I always live with expectations like whooh! This could be it. This could be something. This could be great.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let`s go for a little walk.
HATTIE: Yes, I think so.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That is Hattie from "Extreme Cougar Wives," a new reality series on TLC. This is about older women who date much younger men. Hattie, thank you for joining us.
Now, Hattie, quick question before I go back to my couple here in the studio. As we age, our libido tends to drop off a bit. It often does. Doesn`t seem to have affected you, that biology, very much? Is that true?
HATTIE: Well, this is how it commonly happens. But one of the reasons I`m here and one of the reasons I`m here is that I want to put across the message that if you`re a sexual human being and spirituality and sexuality and you`re excited about life, a lot of things don`t leave you. Your energy, your strength, your sexuality, your lust.
Maybe I don`t get an orgasm as quickly as I used to, but I get them. And I really want to put that message across. Hey, ladies, if you love sex, keep going for it, all your life. Now, for people who don`t, no problem.
PINSKY: Right. It is something that people should anticipate throughout the lifespan. In fact, couples that continue great higher (INAUDIBLE). And Hattie, I think you have a brand new fan in Laura Baron, because she`s like shaking her head vigorously every time you speak.
(CROSSTALK)
(LAUGHTER)
HATTIE: When I first got out there, I wrote a book "Retro Age: Four Steps To A Younger You." And everybody thought, hey, that book, Hattie, that`s going to appeal to older women, and it doesn`t. It doesn`t. What appeals to younger women is for them to know that they could be hot for the rest of their lives. And hey, my name is Hattie. So, hottie, Hattie, come on.
(LAUGHTER)
PINSKY: It`s just one vowel difference. What are we going to do? So, I want to go back. Before the commercial break, I asked you -- first of all, I understand, around you guys, there`s a lot of controversy swirling. And so, if you could tell us about that and then tell me -- answer the question I asked before break, is it fair to Kevin, a 21-year- old, to get involved with him deeply at his age?
JUDE: How would it be unfair? I mean, I`m not anticipating going anywhere any time soon, you know? I think that we`re connected in a really great way. We have a genuine love for one another.
PINSKY: And yet people around you tend to sort of -- like your daughter won`t speak to you?
KEVIN: Oh, yes.
PINSKY: They`re reacting rather negatively to this relationship.
KEVIN: Yes.
JUDE: But they`re not living my life. You know, I`m not trying to tell anybody what to do. And I would never withhold my love or withhold my companionship in order to get them to do something.
PINSKY: OK. Fair enough. Let me go to Sandra in Ohio. Sandra. Sandra, are you there?
SANDRA, OHIO: Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Yes, ma`am. Go right ahead.
SANDRA: I love your program tonight. Just what I`m needed. The ladies are right. We`re out of this era. We`re into a new era. We`re no longer -- we`re on a new journey with a new adventure.
PINSKY: So, you`re saying --
(CROSSTALK)
SANDRA: I think the lady in her 50s with that young hunk. If he was next to me tonight, I wouldn`t let him go.
(LAUGHTER)
PINSKY: Fair enough, Sandra.
SANDRA: Go, girl.
PINSKY: Check, Sandra. Got it. OK.
(LAUGHTER)
PINSKY: I think I`ve got Charity. Is that the next caller? Is that correct? Charity, are you there?
CHARITY, MASSACHUSETTS: Thank you.
PINSKY: Charity, is that correct? Charity, are you there?
CHARITY: Yes, I am.
PINSKY: Go right ahead. CHARITY You`re on the air.
CHARITY: OK. I just wanted to say that if you think about life the way it is, this Hattie lady is outstanding. I mean, God bless you. You`re beautiful. This is a girl who`s beautiful. The guy is young. He`s a great looking guy. You know, life is about love and happiness. It`s not about complications and problems and who did what and this and that.
It`s just about getting along, things are moral. And this is moral. Nobody`s married. Nobody`s underage.
PINSKY: I got to break. Your opinion is duly noted. Hattie, thank you. You, guys, thank you for joining us telling your story. Laura, I have to say goodbye to you now. It`s really tough. I hope you`ll come back soon. You`ve been a great --
(LAUGHTER)
PINSKY: And thank you for giving that female perspective that when you`re a male, you just cannot quite get through -- can`t give it. You see, we`re too stuck with our Y chromosome. It`s hard to get --
BARON: Well, thank you for celebrating all of this woman love.
PINSKY: Right. Yes. Who knows what might happen during the break? We`re going to take a quick break.
(LAUGHTER)
PINSKY: We`ll be right back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: All right. I want to finish up with a couple calls. George in Massachusetts -- George.
GEORGE, MASSACHUSETTS: Hi, Dr. Drew. I am pissed off at that segment.
PINSKY: Tell me.
GEORGE: First and foremost, that woman, Hattie, I think she needs to act her age and appreciate the longevity of her life that she`s experienced. The other two couple there, the 21-year-old man and the 54- year-old woman. She`s taking advantage of that young man. He was 14 years old when he met her. She`s nothing more to me than an older pedophile because she used her influence over that young man.
And I don`t think that he has the right frame of mind to even deal with a mature woman like her. She ought to find someone her own age and she got to stick with.
PINSKY: George, whenever those sort of age imbalances exist, I always worry about the younger person because they don`t have quite the same perspective. Hattie, you still with us?
HATTIE: I`m here. Yes.
PINSKY: Hey, Hattie. So, George wasn`t too happy with your behavior. Do you have anything -- any response to him?
HATTIE: I didn`t hear that part, but a lot of people aren`t going to be happy with my behavior. But I`m not in bed with them and I`m not having coffee with them. I`m here on TV talking about life and passion and love and spirituality and joy. So, if that doesn`t work for some people, it`s cool with me.
PINSKY: OK. Do you have a boyfriend -- I`ve got to wrap it up in just a few seconds. But do you date around? Do you have a boyfriend? How does that work for you?
HATTIE: Well, I don`t have one boyfriend. I`ve been asked very often, would I love to be married again, and yes, I would love to be married again. But I`m not an easy person to --
PINSKY: Tie down?
HATTIE: Complicated.
PINSKY: I see that about you, Hattie. Thank you for joining us. I`ve got to go. I want to say also thank you to Kim Serafin, Lauran baron, of course, Jill Di Donato, Matt Titus, Jude -- and Jude, Kevin, and Hattie. The "Extreme Cougar Wives" airs Sunday, November 25th on TLC. Thank you all for watching. Thanks for calling as well. See you next time. Nancy Grace begins right now.
END
