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Nancy Grace
Mom of 37 Has 14-Year-Old Boy`s Baby
Aired November 13, 2012 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. A mom of three makes headlines around the world when she remarries and gives birth to two new children. Why? Bombshell tonight. Because she marries a 14-year-old boy, her son`s best friend. And now she`s got two new babies with the 14-year- old. With one of those babies now placed in foster care, she still can`t understand what she did wrong.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They`re making a big deal out of a 15-year-old.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thirty-seven-year-old Clark was picked up and taken to jail.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And I can assure he was no victim.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The day after she and the 15-year-old were married.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You were never suspicious that he was 14 or 15?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No. I mean, they`re all -- they all look about the same age.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And Clark says she believed he was at least 17. She insists she did (ph) know her husband was 15 about the same time she found out she was pregnant.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So he was pursuing you?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, yes. Repeatedly. And I told him no repeatedly.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Clark says, if anything, her husband took advantage of her.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If anything, he took advantage of me because he knew how old he was.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But regardless of what anyone thinks or says.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m happy but -- and he`s happy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Oh! Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Bombshell tonight. A mom of three makes headlines around the world when she remarries and gives birth to two new children. Why? Because she marries a 14-year-old boy -- 14 when their love started.
The kid is her son`s best friend. And now they`ve got two brand-new babies from this 14-year-old boyfriend. One of those babies is in foster care, and she, a 37-year-old mother of three, says she doesn`t understand what`s the big deal.
We are taking your calls. I want to go out to Ninette Sosa, reporter with All News joining me. Ninette, what happened?
NINETTE SOSA, ALL NEWS 106.7: This is a couple who -- they started this relationship with just because -- she said he put her on a pedestal. And there`s just no...
GRACE: Wa-wait! Wa-wait! Wa-wait! Ninette, Ninette, I`m a big admirer of yours, but right there at the very beginning -- "start a relationship." You cannot have a sex relationship with a 14-year-old boy. So let`s just rephrase accurately, when the molestation started. Go ahead, please.
SOSA: This started when she was 37 years old and she had met her son`s best friend, and they just had a relationship from there. He had -- according to her, he hit on her a lot of times, wanted to go out with her, and she finally caved and did.
GRACE: So Matt Zarrell, let me get this straight. This 14-year-old boy that is the object of a 37-year-old mother of three`s love, wasn`t he the best friend of her little son at school?
MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER (via telephone): Yes, Nancy. They were in 9th grade together at the time that this molestation started.
GRACE: All right, so what I don`t get, then, Matt Zarrell, is how can she claim she didn`t know how old he is when -- OK -- when he`s in school with her son. She knows how old her son is. How can she not know how old his schoolmate is?
ZARRELL: Nancy, we`re still trying to work that out. In fact, it was the teen`s grandmother who actually informed Clark that the boy was actually 14 and not 17.
GRACE: We are taking your calls. Out to Suzanne in California. Hi, dear. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I have a comment and a question.
GRACE: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: First, my comment is this woman, she doesn`t know what she did wrong? I`ll tell her. She`s a child molester. And she took advantage of a young boy.
And my question is, where are the children involved in all of this? Where are her older children and now the younger children? Are they getting any therapy? What`s going on with the children? Because they`re obviously being affected by all of this.
GRACE: Matt Zarrell, she`s right. Where are her three older children from her first marriage, and where are the two brand-new babies she has with the 14-year-old boy?
ZARRELL: OK, let me start with the children with the 14-year-old boy. One of the children is actually with one of Clark`s former co-workers, who took custody of the child while Clark was incarcerated. The other child, the younger daughter, Star (ph), is with Clark and the teen, who is now, I believe, 22 years old.
The adult -- the children that she had with the prior husbands were all teenagers when this started. They are all now over 18 years old. We`re still trying to find out where they are at this point.
GRACE: OK, so I`m not quite sure how she loses custody of the first baby. Aren`t they named Sky (ph) and Star, the boy -- the little infant boy is Sky (ph) and the little girl is Star, is that correct, Matt?
ZARRELL: Yes, that`s correct.
GRACE: All right, so Sky, the little boy that she had after she started the sex relationship with a 14-year-old boy -- he is in foster care. And they`re now claiming, What? What? How did he end up in foster care? Well, they signed away their parental rights, is my understanding. Suzanne, that`s the answer to your question.
Unleash the lawyers. Joining me, Elizabeth Beach, Dallas, Randy Kessler, Atlanta, Anahita Sedaghatfar joining me from LA.
All right, first to you, Kessler. Weigh in.
RANDY KESSLER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, you know, this is crazy that a 14-year-old boy and 37-year-old woman can`t now be around their children when, you know, they`re old enough. I don`t understand the laws being equally applied to a 14-year-old boy and a 37-year-old woman just like it was a 60-year-old man and a 4-year-old little girl. I mean, there`s got to be some discretion...
GRACE: OK, I don`t really understand what you`re even talking about. I`m going to give you another swing at the ball. Try again, Kessler.
KESSLER: This law is too black and white. Just because someone happens to be one year younger -- if he was two years older, we wouldn`t even be here. So two years younger...
GRACE: OK, wait, wait, wait! Stop! Stop! Stop! Can I please see Kessler? OK, what are you talking about? First you said something about a 60-year-old and a 4-year-old...
KESSLER: I`m talking about (INAUDIBLE)
GRACE: I`m talking! And then you said the law is wrong. If he had been one year old, no, two years older. What -- just try to get it back in the middle of the road, Kessler. Steer it back in and tell me what you`re trying to say.
KESSLER: I`m saying this law is unfair. What 14, 15-year-old boy doesn`t think Halle Berry and Nicole Kidman, both in their 40s, aren`t attractive? And if they had a chance, what 14, 15, 16-year-old boy wouldn`t want to be with them?
GRACE: All right...
KESSLER: This law is applied to them just like it applies...
GRACE: Please...
KESSLER: ... to a 30-year-old man...
GRACE: ... stop saying 15, OK? You can stop saying 15 to try to make it in somebody`s eyes, not mine, a little bit more palatable by saying 15 because he wasn`t 15, Kessler. He was 14.
So basically, you go to three years of law school, you practice, what, 20-something years law, and your legal response is, It`s not fair? All right, I could have gotten that from John David and Lucy. They`re 5 years old.
Let me go to Anne Bremner. You are the attorney in the Mary Kay Letourneau case, Anne. Anne Bremner joining me, high-profile lawyer out of Seattle. During Mary Kay Letourneau`s case, who famously molested Vili, her student -- I believe -- what was that, the 7th or 8th grade -- did she say she didn`t know how old he is?
ANNE BREMNER, ATTORNEY, FRIEND OF MARY KAY LETOURNEAU (via telephone): No, because she was his teacher. And he was in 6th grade when she was his teacher, 12 going on 13. And they got involved physically when he was 13.
GRACE: You mean, the molestation of him started when he was 13?
BREMNER: Well, sure. And that`s what it was by law. But the fact is, is that Mary served seven years in prison. She`s out and they`re married now. So it`s kind of deja vu all over again.
GRACE: So what, it didn`t happen?
BREMNER: No. I mean, Nancy, you know what? You look at the law. It`s statutory rape, like we used to call it, by virtue of age. She spent seven-and-a-half years in prison, and then ultimately, when she got out, they were both of age, and they`re raising two children that they have together.
GRACE: You know, Anne, the two children that they are raising together -- when Mary Kay Letourneau was behind bars, didn`t -- his name is Vili Finnow (SIC), correct?
BREMNER: It`s Vili Fualaau, almost like four syllables, Nancy.
GRACE: OK. I`m going to go with Finnow (SIC).
BREMNER: OK, that`s fine!
(LAUGHTER)
GRACE: I`m just going to go with the first name, all right?
BREMNER: OK.
GRACE: While she was behind bars, his mom raised the infant, correct?
BREMNER: That`s right. His mom took care of and raised both the girls. He had the contact with them, but she took custody for those seven- and-a-half years. And ultimately, they all worked it out at the end of the day.
GRACE: Now, how did she -- did she get pregnant with the second child when she got out? How did that happen?
BREMNER: Yes, she got the so-so (ph), which is an alternative sentencing option in Washington state. And that involved going to jail for a shorter period of time and getting treatment. She did that. When she got out from that sentence, she got involved with Vili again, got pregnant. And so her sentence was revoked. She was given the full sentence of prison.
GRACE: Now, wasn`t that when the police caught her in the car having sex with him when she had just gotten out of prison?
BREMNER: Yes, she had just gotten out of jail. And she was found in the car with Vili. And at that point, they didn`t know she was pregnant, but they found out pretty quickly.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They don`t want us to be happy.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m extremely angry with her.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Lisa Clark, arrested after marrying a 15-year- old.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The couple made national headlines when they married after a nearly two-year relationship.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How do you respond to the people who say you`re taking advantage of a young teenager?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He knew what he was doing. And now I`m being, you know, burned at the stake, is what I feel like. Like a witch hunt, like I`m being crucified because I fell in love with someone.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She says she believed he was at least 17 years old. Clark insists she had no idea her now husband was 15 at the same time she found out she was pregnant.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m happy, but -- and he`s happy. But they don`t want us to be happy. That would be asking too much. They`re making a big deal out of a 15-year-old, and I can assure you, he was no victim.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So he was pursuing you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, yes. Repeatedly. And I told him no repeatedly and...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And he won you over?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, he just was so sweet and he was very polite.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Sweet and polite. That is what she said about the 14-year-old playmate of her son before they launched into an illegal sex affair, commonly termed statutory rape. This 37-year-old mother of three gets pregnant by her son`s 14-year-old little friend. She goes to jail. They - - oh, they married. She has another baby, one of those two children now in foster care, and she still doesn`t understand what she did wrong.
Elizabeth Beach, Randy Kessler. Also joining us, Anahita Sedaghatfar. Elizabeth Beach, weigh in.
ELIZABETH BEACH, ATTORNEY: I think it is very interesting that she continues to say that the 15-year-old is not a victim and that she didn`t do anything wrong. This is exactly why we have to have this kind of law. This law is fair. This law is important.
We hope that adults will be responsible, but there are people like Clark that think they`re entitled to have sex with a 14-year-old. And even after they`re caught and sentenced and go to prison, she still is insisting that he was not a victim and that she did nothing wrong. That is perfectly abhorrent behavior.
GRACE: OK, to you, Anahita.
ANAHITA SEDAGHATFAR, CIVIL ATTORNEY: Yes, Nancy, I`m not saying what this woman did was right. In fact, it was wrong. It was very wrong. But we don`t have a situation here where we have a serial pedophile...
GRACE: Put her up!
SEDAGHATFAR: ... or a serial child molester. There`s no evidence that she was a bad mother...
GRACE: Really?
SEDAGHATFAR: ... she abused her children...
GRACE: OK, hold on! How many babies did she have with this 14-year- old boy?
SEDAGHATFAR: She has two children with him.
GRACE: OK. So that would suggest that there was at least two statutory rapes on this boy. Yes, no?
SEDAGHATFAR: Well, he`s legally of age now, Nancy, and that`s what matters.
GRACE: No, I`m talking about -- no! That`s legally incorrect. Please do not disseminate false legal information on this program!
At the time the incident occurred, he was 14 years old. You said she is not a serial molester. If there are two babies that DNA genetically proves are his, that means he had sex at least twice. That`s two. Under the law, that`s serial.
Are you trying to say that there are no other little boy victims. Is that what you`re trying to say, there`s only one?
SEDAGHATFAR: Yes, I`m trying to say, at least as far as we know, we`ve heard no one`s come forward. There`s no evidence that she`s done this to other boys. We can`t -- I`m not trying to excuse her behavior. But at the end of the day, taking children away from their mother will harm the children more than anything else.
GRACE: Let me correct you on another fact. Nobody took the baby away from them. They signed away their parental rights, OK? We all on this panel know that you can`t come in and just take a baby away, even if the parent is behind bars. Doesn`t work like that. And that`s not why one of these babies is in foster care.
Now, let me ask you, Anahita, do you have children?
SEDAGHATFAR: I do not, Nancy.
GRACE: OK, let me try Elizabeth Beach. Elizabeth, as I recall, you have children, one a ballerina, is she not?
BEACH: That`s true. I have two children, a son and a daughter.
GRACE: Elizabeth, if someone started having sex and got your daughter pregnant at age 14 and the defense was, Oh, well, guess what? This guy only molested your daughter. He didn`t molest anybody else. So hey, everything is fine. How would you take to that, Elizabeth?
BEACH: I would be extremely upset, and I would want that person prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. But also, if somebody exploited my teenage son, I would be equally angry.
GRACE: Agree.
BEACH: It doesn`t make a difference that it`s a teenage girl being exploited or a teenage boy being exploited.
GRACE: Out to the lines. Nancy in South Carolina. Hi, dear. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I got a question. But I want to tell you I`m a mother of twins, too, so you`ll make it, OK?
(LAUGHTER)
GRACE: Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You`re welcome. Listen, I want to come in on this. I`ve been listening to everybody talk about this little victim, OK? He`s not a victim. She -- he -- they both are in it together.
But one thing I want to ask. I have a grandson that`s 10. He`s only -- this little boy is only four years older than my grandboy. It is plainly molestation. And you know, they`re lucky that he`s alive, you know, because most 14-year-olds are not found alive. You know, you do a lot of that on your shows.
But I`m very angry that, you know, the little boy was probably a virgin. She took his virginity. And they`re calling this -- and she said, We were in love. This child knew nothing about love. This child knew that something felt good to him, and he was too afraid to say anything, so she continued. And that`s how I look at it.
And I think she is guilty. I think she needs to be put in prison. She doesn`t deserve children. She don`t. She had a little boy, had a 14- year-old boy who she could have counseled and could have went to someone to get him help. But she refused to. She took it upon herself to molest this child. And that`s sort of a control issue, as well.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The words "I`m sorry" are the last thing anyone will get from Lisa Clark.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) County authorities arrested the 37- year-old Clark one day after she and the 15-year-old married.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He told me and my children he was 17. And I didn`t even want to date him then.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I regret not knowing more about the criminal justice system. I regret not getting the -- well, I know that I did everything that I could have done, once things laid themselves out. And that`s how I went to sleep every night because every day, I made sure I did everything either to help my children or to educate myself.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My gosh. We`re so happy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That was a shot of Mary Kay Letourneau and her young lover. I believe he was 12 when she started having sex with him. He was her student at school.
With me, her lawyer, high-profile lawyer out of Seattle, Anne Bremner. Also with us, Elizabeth Beach, Randy Kessler and Anahita SEDAGHATFAR.
We are taking your calls regarding a case where a 37-year-old mother of three launches into a sex affair with her son`s 14-year-old best friend. They have two children together.
And to you, Bret Larson (ph), investigative journalist. Explain to me how the marriage went down.
BRET LARSON, INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALIST: Yes, well, the marriage went down in I guess the only way it could. You know, in Georgia, the law says that you can marry a minor if the bride is pregnant. So the two of them did just that.
They actually did it on the driveway of a retired judge. You know, a court judge did the -- oversaw their wedding and their vows. And immediately within a day, then she got arrested for the statutory rape. So the law really only protected her in letting the two of them get married.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The couple made national headlines when they married after a nearly two-year relationship.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And he won you over.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, he just was so sweet and he was very polite.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And Clark says she believed he was at least 17. She insists she didn`t know her husband was 15 about the same time she found out she was pregnant.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And I told him no repeatedly. And you know, I finally agreed. I wasn`t even comfortable in public with him at first because of his age. And -- but, you know, we got along so well. Everything -- he was just so nice.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: All right, there is a big clue right there. When you are uncomfortable in public for the world to see your mate or your spouse, then there`s something wrong. There is something wrong.
What was wrong here? A 37-year-old mother of three launches into an illegal statutory rape relationship with a 14-year-old boy. Her son`s best friend at school. She gets pregnant, marries the boy, under an obscure law, then has another baby.
To Matt Zarrell, explain to me the whole scenario of how she gets behind bars. What, does she deliver the baby behind bars? How does she get pregnant a second time if she was behind bars?
MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE STAFFER, COVERING STORY: Nancy, she was actually -- she gave birth -- she became pregnant with the second baby when she was released from prison after serving her sentence. The first baby was born in prison.
GRACE: OK, now explain to me how they lost custody of the first baby, baby Sky, a little baby boy.
ZARRELL: Well, as the teen told ABC News, they claimed that they were betrayed by the -- the person who`s watching the child who promised to return their son when Clark got out of jail but has returned to do so. And Gonzalez reportedly told ABC News that he was tricked into signing over the rights to the child.
GRACE: Well, Randy Kessler, you`re the expert in family law. When you`ve got a mother and a father and an infant child and the father signs away parental rights, the mother has to do the same in order to lose custody. One parent can`t just give away the baby.
RANDY KESSLER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: That`s absolutely right. But you know what was the mental capacity? You`re obviously saying that these people have mental issues and they had just --
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: No. Nobody said they had mental issues.
KESSLER: Well, you know, the problem is, we`re all talking about this victim, this 14-year-old boy. He`s a victim but there`s no more innocent victim than the children. Should the children never be able to see their natural mother and their natural father despite whatever paperwork is signed?
GRACE: You know, Randy, that sounds great. It does.
KESSLER: Good.
GRACE: But that`s not what I asked you. I`m asking you how the couple lost custody of the baby to start with. I know the 14-year-old boy signed away parental rights. But let me rephrase my question, Kessler. You can`t just have one parent give away the baby. The mom had to sign away the baby, too.
KESSLER: Right, they did what they thought was right. Mom was going to be in jail. Why should she have the right? She`s obviously got problems. She said someone else take care of my babies. She`s grown up, apparently. Everyone matures as they get older.
GRACE: She was 38 by that time. What -- pretty soon she`s going to be on Social Security. When is she going to grow up?
Matt Zarrell, where was the mom when she signed away her parental rights?
ZARRELL: We believe that the mother was either in jail or heading to jail or days away from jail when the baby was turned over to the foster home.
GRACE: So she gives the baby away.
Anne Bremner, try to make some sense out of this for me.
ANNE BREMNER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I think we just have to differentiate between the crime and the sentencing in the case like this. And the statutory rape, like we said, by dictate of age you`re guilty. And then you look at a sentence and whether or not somebody should be demonized or diagnosed. Women usually diagnosed, men are demonized in tons of cases.
But the fact of the matter is what you see with these women, and I feel like I`ve become an expert on these cases having the Mary Kay Letourneau civil case is they usually have the one-love affection and continuing relationship with someone they met and got involved with while they were underage. They serve their time and the question is, what do you do from here?
And Mary Kay Letourneau gave away rights while she`s in prison. And she regained rights when she came out and she`s raising those kids with with the natural father. And I think --
GRACE: But wait a minute, though, Anne Bremner, I don`t believe she - - did she actually give away legal custody?
BREMNER: No. Not -- no. And thanks for pointing that out. Actually what she did is she had a temporary custody that was bestowed upon Billy`s mother. Now there could have been a problem with that when the two reunited and the no contact order was lifted because there`s a lifetime no contact order and they asked for the children back. It was basically agreed to and they got the kids back. There was no fight ensued.
The other thing is, you know, Mary had four kids. Before that she had six kids. And there were orders and in her case, where she couldn`t even see her own children, those were reversed on appeal. So, you know, it`s not --
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Right.
BREMNER: -- to say all is well that ends well. But this -- the kids are back with the parents. Everybody is happy.
GRACE: Well, I appreciate that, Anne, in that scenario.
BREMNER: All together.
GRACE: But in this case, the case we`re talking about tonight, it`s not such a happy ending.
In fact, isn`t it true, Matt Zarrell, when this little boy, the 14- year-old got with the 37-year-old mother of three, they got -- she took him to a hotel room. He says he`s so upset and nervous he repeatedly vomited over and over when they checked into this hotel.
A 37-year-old mother of three checking into a hotel with a 14-year-old boy. If the genders were reversed, he would be tarred and feathered.
ZARRELL: Yes, Nancy. You`re right. In fact they -- this was their first date, actually, when they went to this hotel room, and that was the first night that they had sex.
GRACE: Well, you certainly don`t mince words, Matt Zarrell.
To Caryn Stark, psychologist. The boy, 14 years old, in a hotel room with a soon to be 38-year-old mother of three, starts vomiting over and over and over. Why?
CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: Because he is not of age, Nancy, where he can make that kind of a decision and know what he`s doing. Developmentally he was still a child. He can`t really differentiate between what`s right for him and what`s wrong for him. She`s the authority. She`s the person in charge. And he`s looking to her for direction. That`s how it works.
And I also want to make a point about Mary Kay Letourneau. I don`t want the viewers to think for a second that because that one case may have worked out that this is the right thing to do, because it`s not.
GRACE: I don`t know if mom going to jail repeatedly and having sex with a 12-year-old boy is ever a good thing. Just because they somehow managed to stay together under one roof. I don`t know what that really means.
To pediatrician and expert in child development, Dr. Laura Jana, joining me from Omaha.
Dr. Laura, thank you for being with us. What does it say to you about the boy vomiting over and over and over, when this grown mother, his best friend`s mom, takes him to a hotel room to have sex, and after that night, he couldn`t even eat. He quit eating. What does that say?
DR. LAURA JANA, PEDIATRICIAN AND EXPERT IN CHILD DEVELOPMENT: You know, Nancy, I mean, when I hear somebody in a potentially stressful situation, whatever that may be, vomiting, it signals to me that`s a very significant stress response. And clearly, you know, if we get back to the point that everybody has kind of danced around the idea, we are talking about a 14-year-old. You`ve been very clear about that.
Let me just be clear about 14-year-old development. Boys typically hit puberty between 10 and 13 years of age. Their bodies quickly become more like adult bodies. Outwardly they can look like it. But let me tell you, I am the parent of a 14-year-old son and a 15-year-old daughter, and they are so far from being equipped to make their way in the world and make important decisions all on their own.
In the early years of puberty, it`s absolutely normal for a boy to want to experiment with sexual activity. In fact, it`s probably one of the primary areas of focus. OK? But that is absolutely different than saying that they are in any way equipped to make those choices. Their brain literally is not developed. They don`t curb their impulses well. They prefrontal cortexes isn`t developed well and they don`t make good judgment calls. Usually until their 20s. OK?
At the same time that don`t develop really well their desire center. The part of the brain that makes them want to take risky behaviors and rebellious behaviors. So then you take a 14-year-old with that stage of development and put him in a situation that he may well have said he wanted, but when he gets there, absolutely child reaction to a very stressful situation. It reminds me of a very traumatic experience. The fact that he couldn`t eat afterwards. As a pediatrician, I`m trained to look for disturbances in eating, sleeping, grades at school, any of those sorts of things. And that can be related to physical abuse, sexual abuse, bullying, drugs. I mean serious consequences. That`s what he reminds me of.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The words "I`m sorry" are the last thing anyone will get from Lisa Clark, arrested after marrying a 15-year-old.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Happy and he`s happy, but they don`t want us to be happy. That would be asking too much.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She`s a pedophile. And pounced on my grandson.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They`re making a big deal out of a 15-year-old. And I can assure you he was no victim.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Charging her with child molestation. She`s seven months pregnant with his child.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If anything he took advantage of me. Because he knew how old he was.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back. We are taking your calls. She says, I`ve been punished enough. And doesn`t understand what she did wrong. Well, here`s a clue. She was 37-year-old mother of three when she lost an illegal statutory rape relationship with her little son`s best friend. They now have two children of their own.
Chris in Texas. Hi, dear, what`s your question?
CHRIS, CALLER FROM TEXAS: Hi, Nancy. I`m thrilled to be able to talk to you.
GRACE: Likewise.
(CROSSTALK)
CHRIS: -- when I saw this information. I got a couple of questions. Number one, in a nutshell, she`s a pedophile. She committed a crime. She potentially destroyed this kid`s life. He sounds like a messed up kid. He was already messed up. Where is his mom and dad?
GRACE: You know, good question.
To Ninnette Sosa, reporter with All News. Ninnette, where are his parents?
NINETTE SOSA, REPORTER, ALL NEWS 106.7: Nancy, very few details have come out about his parents. The grandmother is the one who appears to have more parental control. She is the one who has come forward, who`s brought the allegation of rape that happened. And so it`s the grandmother.
As far as the parents, don`t know. And he had run in a little bit of legal trouble as well.
GRACE: Yes, he had been in and out of trouble as a juvenile. You`re right about that, Ninette. And also I noticed that this mom of three, 37 years old, kept their relationship a secret until she got pregnant. And then critics contend that she only married the 14-year-old boy to avoid child molestation charges.
What about that, Brett Larson?
BRETT LARSON: I mean, this is -- this is absolutely true, Nancy. I mean she thinks she found this loophole in the law to marry this kid and she does, and then she gets busted because the grandmother turns them in. And then it -- and then she gets slapped with all these -- all these crimes that she`s committed in this -- in this lurid relationship that she has.
GRACE: You know, when you don`t want the world to know what it is you`re doing there`s a reason for that. Not to suggest that every secret is nefarious. But in this case that certainly was true.
The first date, Elizabeth Beach, is at a sleep-in, at a hotel where the boy, the little boy is so nervous he vomits all night, he can`t eat the next day.
Elizabeth Beach, explain in a nutshell the theory that she only married the little boy to avoid child molestation charges.
ELIZABETH BEACH: She thought she had snapped on a loophole that was going to prevent her from being prosecuted and so she jumped in and married him. She was wrong. Legally she was wrong. She had already committed the crime of statutory rape, so her scheme didn`t work, but she thought for a while it was going to work.
GRACE: And I also think -- Ninette Sosa is right. This young boy who`s just 14 had been in trouble. I believe he had a juvenile burglary incident and some other minor offenses. He was at risk when this older lady, 37 years old, took him to a hotel and almost immediately got pregnant.
Out to the lines. Andrea, hi, dear. What`s your question? .
ANDREA, CALLER: I don`t really have a question. I was commenting on the whole issue. He was a child from a broken home. They said that he came from a mother who was a drug addict. That`s why he was living with his grandmother. And so he was looking for solace from this woman, an older woman as a mother figure. So she clearly abused her power. She was in a position of power, no better than a teacher or a doctor abusing that power.
I mean, he was a child and I think it was disgusting. I don`t know how she could have gotten away with it or think anything of it to be -- that it`s right. I actually watched her this weekend. And I was truly disturbed by her saying she had almost these child like mentality, thinking that she --
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Andrea, Andrea, listen to this. According to this mom, Lisa Lynette Clark, she says we have so much in common. Quote, "He`s obsessed with women from the `80s. He knows a lot about my time period. He`s into older music, older movies." She also denies being a pedophile, which she considers to be someone attracted to pre-pubescent children. And at this hour she says she and her, quote, "husband", are not planning to ever divorce.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: So you were never suspicious that he was 14 or 15?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No. I mean they all -- they all look a bit the same age.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: They all look the same age. All right.
Randy Kessler, as I recall, you have at least one little girl.
KESSLER: Yes.
GRACE: Let`s flip the story here, and imagine a 37-year-old man sparking up a, quote, "relationship," with your little girl. Response?
KESSLER: Then I`d need my own lawyer to defend me for what I did to him. That would be my response.
GRACE: And you know what? I would make a cameo appearance as a defense lawyer on your behalf.
So I get it, Kessler. I know you`re taking the defense side because that`s your job. Under the constitution. To make every argument, pursue every lead. Turn the world upside down if you have to where we all feel like we`re "Alice in Wonderland" to defend your client. I get it. But there is the underlying right versus wrong.
And you know, Randy, where I`m coming from, I mean, you`re on the other side of the fence when I prosecuted in Fulton County intercity, Atlanta. I saw so many -- starting at children at 24 months old, girls, molested, statutory rape, the works. And now that I`ve got a little boy, he is just as precious.
KESSLER: Sure.
GRACE: As my little girl. And this is just wrong. And for her to say they all look the same age?
KESSLER: You know, that`s right, Nancy. And it is very hard to separate -- if he had a child. You know, your grandchildren. That`s a secondary issue. Yes, the mother should be punished. This mother was punished. And she did, she got, I think, good legal advice to plead guilty. She did not contest this and go to a jury trial. So she did the - - she did the time that was allotted for this crime.
The question now, though, is what about these children? Do they have a right to know their natural parents? They should be able to decide when they get older, do they want to have relationship or not. But yes, she should have been punished but discretion isn`t the same degree as a 30- year-old guy and 10-year-old girl. There`s got to be differences and this one is a much closer call than an 8-year-old little girl and a 30-year-old guy.
GRACE: Back to Dr. Laura Jana, pediatrician and expert in child development.
Dr. Laura, are there any health risks to a baby when there`s such a wide age gap between the biological parents?
GRACE: Well, you know, Nancy, I think it`s a very good question. But I think really what we`ve got here -- I mean certainly, you know, there are wide age ranges between parents. And there`s some issues when you have much older parents. But what we know is that there`s significant risks to the child of a teenage parent, there are significant risks to children of incarcerated parents.
And so, you know, that`s really -- we`re talking about, you know, really several children here and a potentially very younger initial mother who -- when she was older it`s almost like the cycle of incarceration, lack of parental support.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: We remember American hero, Marine Lance Corporal Thomas Rivers, Jr., 22 Birmingham. Purple Heart, Combat Action Ribbon. Loves scuba, hunting, football, parents Tom and Sharon, sister, Rachel.
Thomas Rivers Jr. American hero.
And tonight, happy birthday to Arkansas friend Thomas Crook. Loves wife Susan.
And tonight vigils across the country to shine a light on lung cancer. Go to lungcanceralliance.org.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Hall County authorities arrested the 37-year- old Clark one day after she and the 15-year-old married, charging her with child molestation and she says she believed he was at least 17 years old. Clark insists she had no idea her now-husband was 15. That`s about the same time she found out she was pregnant.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Matt Zarrell, she pled guilty to statutory rape, she only got nine months behind bars. Her sentence says no contact with the teen until he turned 17. But didn`t she get out of jail and immediately get pregnant again?
ZARRELL: Yes, Nancy, you`re right. In fact, but he was 17 by the time she got out of prison. In fact, she actually had additional charges tacked on to her rape sentence because she tried to help him escape from a group home where he was being held.
GRACE: OK, Matt. I will leave on that happy note.
Everyone, "DR. DREW" up next. I`ll see you tomorrow night 8:00 sharp Eastern. Until then, good night, friend.
END
