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New Voting Rules in Egypt; Interview with James Hoffa; Man Shoots, Kills Son by Accident

Aired December 11, 2012 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: We continue on top of the hour. Thanks for being with me. I'm Brooke Baldwin. We begin in Michigan, workers rights to bargain versus one worker's right not to. It is a union showdown that the entire nation is watching because of where it is happening, the land of the autoworker -- Michigan.

All these people chanting, they're on the losing side. The show of force for unions, bombarded lawmakers at the state capital since before sunrise today, but here's the news in the last hour.

Just this afternoon, the Michigan House passed two right-to-work bills, already approved by the Senate. The laws allow private and most public workers to opt out of paying union fees. Opt out of being a member of a union.

Take a look at the map here. You could see Michigan now is one governor's signature away from becoming a right to work state. You see the yellow states. These are all the right to work states, Michigan would become number 24.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JASE BOLGER (R), MICHIGAN STATE HOUSE: But with this legislation, unions will remain free to make their choice. It is time that we restore the freedom of workers to the workplace of Michigan. Today is a game changer.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Let's go straight to Lansing.

Here is Jim Hoffa, president of the International Brotherhood of Teamsters, a union with more than a million members.

Jim Hoffa, welcome to you. I see all these signs behind you, stop the war on the workers. Is this legislation, is this the death knell for these workers, these unions in Michigan?

JAMES HOFFA, PRESIDENT, TEAMSTERS UNION: Not at all. This is just the first round of a battle that will divide this state. We're going to have a civil war in this state because this has been passed by a lame-duck legislature by -- really, there is no debate. This was done in five days.

It's not approved by the people of the state of Michigan. If anything, it should have been on the ballot. This is a monumental decision to make. For it to be done by outgoing senators and congressmen or legislatures is a tremendous mistake. And so what they're doing is basically betraying democracy. If there is any question here, let's put it on the ballot. Let's let the people of Michigan decide what is good for Michigan.

BALDWIN: Before that happens, though, and it is assumed that, you know, your governor is poised to sign this legislation come tomorrow, in the meantime, as you wage this civil war, what does this mean for unionized workers moving forward in Michigan?

HOFFA: Well, it means we have got to work hard, but basically we're going to challenge this in court. We have done this in other states, and we're going to basically get this on the ballot, eventually, within the year and basically vote this thing down again. We can get this thing stopped and it is the wrong thing for Michigan.

If anything, let the people decide, not a handful of lame-duck legislators. This is a terrible mistake that will divide Michigan.

BALDWIN: Let me ask you about this because we know that this legislation will give the people of Michigan a choice, right? It will give them a choice if they want to be a union member, give them a choice whether or not they want to pay the union dues. And just to get the other side of the story here, Jim, I talked to the head of Michigan's Republican Party, and here is what he told me.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BOBBY SCHOSTAK, CHAIRMAN, MICHIGAN REPUBLICAN PARTY: There are people on both sides of the aisle, in fact, union members, that are in favor of this legislation. Because it is about choice. It is about opportunity. It is about freedom to decide whether to join a union or not and to pay dues and to participate in those benefits. If the unions have a value proposition for their members, unions will prosper in Michigan. If they don't, they will have to find a new way to be effective.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Bobby Schostak, Michigan Republican, party chairman.

Jim Hoffa, what is wrong with giving workers a choice?

HOFFA: It is basically creating a free rider status. When people vote and the majority votes, that should be the people that control in that particular company. We have done this successfully all across the country. Those states that do not have right-to-work have thrived. The ones that do have right-to-work, like Mississippi, or Texas, end up being the last in education, the last in people making -- having good jobs. We don't want that here in Michigan.

We want to create good jobs here. We don't want a race for the bottom. What this will do is it will basically reinforce the fact that people will make less money who are not in the union. So we really don't -- this is out to discriminate against unions, to make it so people don't want to join unions. What we want to do is now is to encourage that.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: I'm hearing that you all want this one item in common, which is you want to bring jobs to Michigan, you want to bring business to Michigan, but the thing is, you know, some businesses won't hire or even work with some of the unions because in these times they simply cannot afford it. And proponents of right-to-work, they say like Bobby Schostak, this attracts economic development. Do you disagree with that?

HOFFA: That's absolutely untrue.

What happened right now is Michigan is on its way back. We have very low -- unemployment is going down here. We're thriving. The auto industry is back. The state is coming back because of what Barack Obama did. This state has turned the corner right now. We're creating good jobs here with good wages without right-to-work. This is basically a step backward, so we're going to end up like some state where people make $4,500 less than a state that doesn't have right-to- work.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: In the meantime, what do you do to prevent people -- what do you do to prevent the hemorrhaging of workers from Michigan? People will up and leave. What do you do in the meantime to keep them there?

HOFFA: Wait a minute. People aren't hemorrhaging in Michigan. I don't know where you're getting that at.

We're basically building jobs here. Michigan is back. We're creating more jobs here. The auto industry is back. Carhaul is back. All our Teamsters are back, and we're hiring here. Michigan is doing very, very well without right-to-work. This is a step backward that is going to cause if anything basically less good jobs here in Michigan.

Look at what has happened in Texas. Look what happened in Oklahoma. Basically, nothing. They said that Michigan -- that Ohio and places like -- with right-to-work, like Oklahoma, would thrive. When Oklahoma became right-to-work, if anything, the wages went down in Oklahoma. So it really doesn't work and that's basically a spin from big business.

BALDWIN: No, no, I'm just saying fear, a fear of hemorrhaging. Certainly not. We all want to see great things from the state of Michigan. Jim Hoffa, we appreciate it. You're the president of the International Brotherhood of Teamsters.

Thank you. We will follow up with you.

Rolling the animation. Stop the presses here, three weeks until the fiscal cliff deadline. And leading the Republicans here hits the floor of Congress today to deliver what many Americans are hoping will be a major development. So take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. JOHN BOEHNER (R-OH), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: A lot of people know the president and I met on Sunday. It was a nice meeting. It was cordial. But we're still waiting for the White House to identify what spending cuts the president is willing to make as part of the balanced approach that he promised the American people.

Where are the president's spending cuts? The longer the White House slow-walks this process, the closer our economy gets to the fiscal cliff.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: No news. Zip, no agreement still. We will let you know if something significant happens.

Developing now, Hugo Chavez undergoing surgery in Cuba today, an operation that we're told was "delicate." The Venezuelan president's current health is a bit of a mystery. But we do know he had surgery last year to remove a cancerous tumor. It is not yet clear what kind of operation he had today. Updates as we get them.

In Egypt, President Mohammed Morsi has put in place these new voting rules as these protests are turning increasingly violent ahead of this Saturday's vote on the controversial constitutional referendum. Now, the new rules restrict the voters from casting their ballots outside their electoral districts, which is what had been allowed in the past.

This announcement comes just hours after masked gunmen attacked opposition protesters overnight in Cairo's Tahrir Square. In all, nine protesters were injured, four of them critically. Their attackers fired bird shot pellets, tossed Molotov cocktails.

We have Reza Sayah joining me there from Cairo.

Reza, what will the new voter rules mean for this weekend's referendum?

REZA SAYAH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, I think for the opposition factions they don't mean much, because at this point they don't want the votes to happen. They reject the process by which this draft constitution was written. They want to postpone the whole thing and that's why they're out here in front of the presidential palace.

That's where we have been for most of the night, where the opponents of the president have gathered. And 15 minutes ago, we got back from another neighborhood where supporters of President Morsi have gathered. We will go out on a limb and say thankfully there will not be much violence tonight, at least widespread violence.

There was a lot of concern coming into tonight because, again, these two sides had called for mass demonstrations, the opposition here and the Muslim Brotherhood supporters of the president in a neighborhood 15 minutes away, but they remain peaceful, they remain calm and the crowds are starting to thin out. And now all eyes, Brooke, will be on Saturday, the day of the big vote. All indications are that this vote is going to happen, again, something that the opposition doesn't support at this point -- Brooke.

BALDWIN: For us in Cairo, Reza Sayah, thank you.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BALDWIN: In the movie about the bin Laden raid, she is the hero. But in the CIA, apparently, it's not all roses for this agent. I'm Brooke Baldwin. The news is now.

(voice-over): Many Americans out of work are bracing for January 1 when benefits stop.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But it is what it is.

BALDWIN: The personal side of the fiscal cliff.

And just moments ago, the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame just announced its brand-new class. We will show you what happened.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: It was supposed to be one of the most secret operations in U.S. history, the Navy SEAL raid that killed Osama bin Laden. And at the center of this decade-long manhunt, a young female CIA operative.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: Do you want to brief them?

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: There are two narratives about the location of Osama bin Laden. The one that you're most familiar with is that UBL is hiding in a cave in the tribal areas, that he's surrounded by a large contingent of loyal fighters. But that narrative is pre-9/11 understanding of UBL.

The second narrative, that he's living in the city, living in a city with multiple points of egress and entry, access to communications, so that he can keep in touch with the organization. You can't run a global network of interconnected cells from a cave.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: That was a clip of this new movie. It's called "Zero Dark Thirty," chronicles this mission highlighting many, many people here in the takedown, including this young woman in seeking, finding, killing Osama bin Laden.

In this new report from "The Washington Post," this mystery CIA operative has a very complicated life, even more so after the bin Laden raid.

Joining me from Washington is Greg Miller. He's the intelligence reporter with "The Post," with "The Washington Post."

So, Greg, welcome.

GREG MILLER, NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT, "THE WASHINGTON POST": Thanks.

BALDWIN: What an article. I read it and from what I can tell, and also listening to an interview with Kathryn Bigelow, the director here, the movie is based on all real people.

But it centers on this CIA operative who -- she is the one who found the link to the courier that really drove this whole lead forward to find Osama bin Laden. Who is she? What do you know?

MILLER: Well, she's in her 30s. She's a young female targeter for the agency. A targeter is a job in which she is supposed to find weaknesses in terrorist networks, look for nodes, people that can be recruited by the CIA or people that could be hit by drones. And she played, as you said, a huge role in the hunt for Osama bin Laden and focused on the idea that he depended on a network of couriers to hand- deliver his messages.

She believed from very early on that that would be the trail that would ultimately lead to the al Qaeda chief.

BALDWIN: Greg, one of my favorite quotes in your piece is this -- quote -- "She's not Ms. Congeniality, but that's not going to find Osama bin Laden." This is from a former CIA associate. This is one woman who according to your piece, I don't know that she hit reply, but she e-mailed all kinds of colleagues that they deserve the accolades that she should have only gotten.

Bigelow calls her tenacious. What would you call her?

MILLER: She has a reputation for being really sharp, but also very combative and clashes with her colleagues.

And that episode that you mentioned is a perfect example. So the agency gave out awards to dozens of officers this year, earlier this year, for their work on the search for bin Laden, and she was -- she got one of the most prestigious, but still she sends a reply-all message to the rest saying, you know, you don't deserve to share these accolades with me. This was my work and you guys got in my way more than helped.

BALDWIN: OK. Well, Jessica Chastain, she is the actress who plays this woman in the film, apparently did not get to meet the real-life female operative for security reasons. But she did talk to CNN about all of this at the Hollywood premiere. It was just last night. Here she was.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JESSICA CHASTAIN, ACTRESS: This is an incredible woman who can't get credit for the sacrifices she's made because she's undercover. And for me making this film is thanking her and telling her story and acknowledging her sacrifices. People are going on and on about how accurate the film is, so much so that even after we made it, and it was in the editing room, the book came out, Mark Owen's book, "No Easy Day," that the Navy SEAL wrote.

I went, ran out and started reading it immediately because I need to know if we're on track. And everything he said about Jen, who is Maya, was 100 percent accurate. She was the only one that was 100 percent positive he was there. It was the best intel he had ever received from the CIA. She was crying on the airplane.

Even the little things he mentioned were right on the story we were telling. So, I feel very proud of the accuracy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: She uses the air quotes "Jen." No one actually -- no one knows -- no one is using her real name.

How did they get the real story?

MILLER: Well, the filmmakers got extensive access to the CIA for this. After the mission, after the bin Laden raid was a success, the agency was inundated with requests and they really put their backing behind this project.

And there is internal e-mails that have since come out to show how enthusiastic they were in providing access to the filmmakers who got to talk to this Maya character, they got to talk to the head of the Counterterrorism Center, they got to tour facilities at the agency, including the vault where they where the bin Laden raid was planned and even to see the agency's mockup of the compound in Pakistan where bin Laden was found.

So it was really unprecedented access for Hollywood and that's what accounts for the authenticity here.

BALDWIN: "Zero Dark Thirty," apparently military terminology for half past midnight. I can't kind of wait to see it.

Greg Miller -- Greg Miller from "The Washington Post," thank you so much.

MILLER: Thank you.

BALDWIN: The fear of the fiscal cliff and its effect on real people.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We're not trying to live off the system. We're trying to survive. It is not a luxury to be on unemployment. It is a means to keep us going.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Coming up next, the unemployed who are waiting for a fiscal cliff deal. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Want to return again to the budget talks in Washington. The president is getting pressure from his left flank today. Progressive Democrats are warning him not to make cuts to Medicaid in the fiscal cliff negotiations. In fact, one expressed dismay today at the climate of secrecy surrounding the talks.

Listen if you would to Senator Jay Rockefeller of West Virginia.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JAY ROCKEFELLER (D), WEST VIRGINIA: I get nervous when two people disappear into a White House room and start making a grand alliance and they think, well, we're going to do this to the rich and we're going to that to the poor, so we will just make that a tradeoff. And like Tom Harkin says, that is amoral. It's amoral. You cannot do it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: So for now, let's just say no budget deal come the 1st of the year. You know what happens. Income taxes go up, and under terms of the debt agreement reached last year, government spending would dramatically slow. This is the so-called fiscal cliff.

Now, it is clear what higher taxes would do. But what about budget cuts? Who would that affect? A lot of folks, including several million unemployed workers.

Watch this story with me from CNN's Kyung Lah.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KYUNG LAH, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Lis De Bats doesn't call it a fiscal cliff. What she could be facing at year's end is a financial freefall.

LIS DE BATS, UNEMPLOYED WORKER: I just wish I wasn't in this situation but it is what it is, and I could just do what I can.

LAH: De Bats lost her job as a new home sales manager last January.

On an old laptop with a broken cord, she applies for job after job, keeping track in a packed notebook -- averaging 15 applications a day. At age 54, this is the first time she's ever been on unemployment. She's emptied out her 401(k), her savings and now the last resort, the Emergency Federal Jobless Program has kept De Bats in her townhome, giving her $450 a week. But on December 29, unless the Congress acts, the money stops.

DE BATS: We're not living off the system. We're trying to survive. It's not a luxury to be on unemployment. It's a means to keep us going.

LAH (on camera): The fear of the fiscal cliff isn't just here in De Bats' suburban neighborhood. In the states with the highest unemployment from the West to the North to the South, they will be hit the hardest. Some 2 million Americans will see those federal unemployment benefits disappear all at once.

(voice-over): Economist Chris Thornberg says these Americans are the unfortunate pawns in the tough game of politics and budget balancing.

CHRIS THORNBERG, BEACON ECONOMICS: So, ultimately, this is a tradeoff, the tradeoff of course has to be that in some ways, some people are going to be hit painfully by a reduction in federal benefits. At the same time, we have to appreciate this deficit has to be closed.

LAH: But at what human cost, asked De Bats.

DE BATS: Here's my refrigerator.

LAH: She's down to condiments until the next unemployment check arrives. But while we're talking to her about the fiscal cliff, she gets an e-mail.

DE BATS: Yes! My first review. OK, great. Whoa, OK, that was good news.

LAH: A third interview for a sales job. If Washington can't do it, maybe this job will pull her back from the cliff.

DE BATS: Oh, my God. You can't believe how excited I am right now.

LAH: Kyung Lah, CNN, Los Angeles.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BALDWIN: Coming up next: a very interesting perspective in this whole right-to-work fight in Michigan, because I will speak live with someone who is a Republican in a union who actually supports the bill many of his co-workers do not -- that story live.

Plus, the heartbreaking tale of a dad who accidentally shot his 7- year-old son.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: I want you to hear this story of little how Craig Loughrey died, because the death of this 7-year-old boy was caused by an oversight you never want to make.

Craig was just getting in his booster seat in the dad's truck, this past Saturday, shortly after leaving a gun shop. This is in Mercer, Pennsylvania. Craig's dad tried selling some guns that morning the gun shop wasn't interested in buying. So, Joseph Loughrey, Craig's father, took the guns back to his truck.

Listen to what police say happened next.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) LT. ERIC HERMICK, PENNSYLVANIA STATE POLICE: About 11:15, a father and son exited the gun store here, entered their vehicle. Child got in the front seat of the truck into his booster seat, dad got into the passenger -- sorry, the driver's side of the vehicle, and was holding a weapon, and reaching for the center console to sit it down when the gun discharged and struck the 7-year-old in the right side of the chest.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: In the right side of his chest. And here's the thing. Joseph Loughrey told police he emptied the gun's magazine before leaving the house, said he thought the gun was empty. Police agreed this was an accident.

Craig's father faces no charges here. But I just want you to listen again as police explain the mistake so commonly made.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HERMICK: The magazine was emptied. The father described it, as he emptied the magazine out at the residence before he brought it here. Unfortunately, it was not rendered safe. There was one inside the chamber which is resulting in the tragedy that occurred here today.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: The owner of Twigs Reloading Den, the gun shop where this whole thing happened, echoed how easy it is to make this mistake. Here it is in her words.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GLADYS MOHNEY, GUN SHOP OWNER: They pull the magazine out, and they will not check the chamber. And it is just an unfortunate incident.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: And then there is this detail, the force of the bullet so great it pushed this little boy back so hard that the window behind him shattered. Police say Loughrey started driving just to get to his son to the hospital and then he stopped, he took his son from the truck, placed him on the ground and attempted CPR.

Sadly, it was too late. It was a tragedy a father is certain to never, ever forget. And we just wanted you to listen to the words of the police lieutenant investigating this case.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The father's traumatized. He's visibly shaken. It's an experience that -- probably the worst tragedy anybody can go through was to take your own son's life.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: So, I want to end where I began. A 7-year-old is dead because of an oversight noone who handles a gun ever wants to make.