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Connecticut Elementary School Shooting
Aired December 15, 2012 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: Good afternoon, everyone. I'm Don Lemon and you're watching live special coverage from Newtown, Connecticut, the scene of the horrific elementary school rampage.
FEYERICK: And I'm Deborah Feyerick here at the CNN Center live for you in Atlanta.
LEMON: I want to tell you, viewers, this is hard and over the next two hours know that we are doing something that's really hard and really unprecedented, not dealing with what the families are dealing with, obviously, who have such -- suffered such tragedy but to have to come and report on 20 children dead is almost unfathomable to us.
And I arrived here this morning, I just want to show you the scene here right in front of the Newton Methodist Church where they're keeping their doors open for 24 hours so that anyone who wants to come in and pay honor and their respect to the victims, they're allowing them in, they're not allowing the media to come in here.
But this church is open for 24 hours. They have lost members of their own church. But again, this is hard. And I can speak for myself and for Deb Feyerick's coverage, over the next two hours, we're going to try to be as respectful, as comforting, as calm as possible, sometimes we won't get it right. We won't get all the names right and sometimes the information is coming in fast. We may get that wrong so please bear with us. We're learning a lot of new information just as you are learning it as well here.
But again we're going to try to be as respectful as possible. Sometimes you'll see children on camera and just know that we did not speak with those children without the parents' permission. So as we say that, bear with us here and we're going to go through this and try to get through this really without breaking down. This is really tough for everyone involved and for everyone watching.
So we're learning some new details about how this rampage unfolded and that man, who is accused of carrying it out. He is 20-year-old Adam Lanza, and we will try to say his name as less as possible but we have to say it for the record.
Law enforcement sources say Lanza tried to buy a gun three days before the shooting but did not have the proper paperwork. And police revealed just today that three guns, not two, as previously thought were found near Lanza's body inside that school. Investigators are working around the clock, at the crime scene, and will probably be there for another day or two until they get all the information they need.
The victims' bodies have been removed from the school and taken to the medical examiner's office right now. Not just victims but people who lived extraordinary lives. Their names are expected to be released soon. And when we get them on CNN we will reveal them to you, again as respectful as possible.
We're left with more questions than answers really right now about the possible motive of this 20-year-old shooter. Police say he killed his mother. His mother's name is Nancy. He did that at her home in Newtown before the rampage at the school where he eventually took his own life.
CNN's Mary Snow joins me now from outside of Lanza's home.
Mary, again, this is very tough. What have we learned about this suspect? Are we learning anything about a motive at this hour?
MARY SNOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Don, officials aren't saying publicly what they're learning about a motive but they are picking up information about potentially how and why this horrific shooting happened and they have been recovering evidence and we just saw a truck belonging to the Connecticut State Police Major Crime Task Force just leaving the Lanza home that is behind me.
You can't see the home. It is tucked away in the back and police have cut off this road but several law enforcement vehicles left just moments ago and -- law enforcement has been on this scene since shortly after yesterday's horrific shooting.
Earlier this morning Lt. Paul Vance, Connecticut State Police, was asked whether any writings or e-mails were being recovered to possibly tell investigators about a potential motive. Here's how he answered that question.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LT. PAUL VANCE, CONNECTICUT STATE POLICE: Our investigators at the crime scene, the school and secondarily at the secondary crime scene that we discussed where the female was located deceased, did produce some very good evidence in this investigation that our investigators will be able to use in hopefully painting the complete picture as to how and more importantly why this occurred.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SNOW: And, Don, you were just reporting on the weapons that were found yesterday near the shooter's body. And CNN -- those two weapons, two handguns and one semiautomatic rifle, and CNN has been reporting that the weapons had been purchased by the suspect's mother, Nancy Lanza.
And, Nancy Lanza, don't know much about her. We did talk to a neighbor earlier today who said, you know, there was nothing out of the ordinary about this woman, that she was a nice woman. She was known around the neighborhood. But said that, you know, the family wasn't all that social but there was really nothing out of the ordinary and came as a surprise to learn about those weapons, obviously -- Don.
LEMON: So, Mary, as we are learning, one was a Glock, one was a Sig Sauer, one was a Bushmaster, and that he may have had access to additional rifles and we're also hearing that he tried to get -- purchase other guns but there was an issue with the paperwork?
SNOW: CNN's Susan Candiotti had been reporting about the fact that he had access to other weapons and that there had been, I believe, three other weapons that had been recovered elsewhere was the latest reporting that we had on the -- his access to guns.
LEMON: Yes. So there -- and you look at those guns on the screen -- Mary, thank you very much.
When you look at those guns on the screen and you wonder how a 20- year-old who may have had some issues with -- would gain access to those guns and every time we have a shooting, I just came back from Colorado, it seems like weeks ago, reporting on that theater shooting. And everyone said, you know, it's too soon to have this conversation about guns.
When is the time, Mary? When is the time? And that's what everyone is wondering around the country.
Thank you, Mary Snow.
Deb Feyerick is now back in Atlanta where we're learning more information about the victims -- Deb.
DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN ANCHOR: Yes, and you know, one thing, though, Don, just to continue on your train of thought and that -- and that is, you know, the three guns that were found, three of them were legally purchased by the mother, Nancy Lanza. And really the question is going to be that police are going to have to unravel, that is, why did she have these particular type of guns, which are defensive? They're offensive. These are not hunting rifles.
These are guns you keep for protection. Clearly that's something they're going to be looking into as well, Don. But we are awaiting to learn the names of the victims of this horrific attack. Twenty children. They were between the ages of 5 and 10 years old, from kindergarten up to 3rd and 4th grade. The shooting spree, six adults also killed, among them the school's principal and school psychologist.
CNN's Nick Valencia joins me now. He's learning more about who some of them victims were -- Nick.
NICK VALENCIA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, good afternoon, Deb. We are standing by for a press conference from state police which will undoubtedly release more names. Twenty-six people in all killed at the Newton, Connecticut, Sandy Hook Elementary School yesterday.
We have been able to independently confirm two of those names, Deb. One is Dawn Hocksprung, the beloved principal of Sandy Hook Elementary School. Just 47 years old. She had been the principal there since 2010. Described by people who knew her, an affable but serious leader. A tough lady but in the right sort of sense. She had arrived with 12 years of administrative experience. She has a beautiful smile there. She had recently, Deb, oversaw the school security system project which required everybody that visited the school after 9:30 a.m., they were required to buzz in at that front entrance.
We now understand details have emerged that the gunman had stormed in and forced his way into Sandy Hook Elementary School. That explains the situation. She was -- getting back to the victim, Dawn Hocksprung. She was extremely passionate about education and in fact was continuing her own education, recently enrolling in a PhD program. She leaves behind a husband, Deb, and two daughters and three stepdaughters.
We also know the school psychologist, Mary Sherlach, 56 years old. People say there's no way that you could have doubted her success. She has spent a lot of time in three school systems before arriving at Sandy Hook Elementary School.
On Friday, a parent told CNN that Sherlach and Hocksprung were both in an administrative meeting at which point they heard a large pop, pop, pop, which of course now we understand was the gunfire coming from the suspected gunman at which point they left into the hallway and they were confronted by the gunman. They left to investigate but both never came back.
Mary Sherlach, the psychologist, had a master's degree from Southern Connecticut State University. She did a lot of work in the community as well, Deb. She worked with disabled adults. So a fixture and part of the quintessential fabric of that community there. But just a sad, sad situation. Those names, so far, the 26 victims, two names we've been able to confirm so far. We'll undoubtedly hear more about the victims in this press conference that we're standing by.
FEYERICK: Yes, absolutely. And our Kate Bolduan also had reported that a teacher had actually protected her children and was able to help some of them ran out past the gunman. It is not clear whether, in fact, she survived this attack, though. Her sister reported post something on her Twitter account saying, my sister died protecting her students. God, why did you take her?
And Don, I think that that is the question that so many are asking now, when you look at the faces and we're going to see so many other faces. When you look at this and you think of the vulnerability and how one moment you are happy and your life is intact and then all of a sudden it's almost as if you take a turn and you go down another path.
But that is the question I think everyone who has lost someone is going to ask, and that is, god, why did you take them -- Don.
LEMON: Yes. Why? Yes. You're exactly right. And when you -- you know, we keep calling them victims. I just -- these are people who lived extraordinary lives and if you've heard their story, you've heard how the teachers and administrators, the principal, handle all this. Extraordinary people who did the best that they could under these circumstances and I'm sure circumstances in their lives and I would like to not refer to them as victims. Just people who had lived extraordinary lives and who were taken away too soon.
Thank you, Deb.
In the meantime, I want to give you some new information that is just into CNN. We're just getting this -- I think Governor Dannel Malloy, the governor of Connecticut, will address the people of Connecticut at 5:00 p.m. Eastern, 5:00 p.m. Eastern. He's going to -- Governor Dannel P. Malloy will speak to the people of Connecticut live via television from his office.
And it goes on to say that -- how we're going to get the information but again expect that and we'll carry it for you live here on CNN.
In the meantime, as we move on with our coverage, we'll actually tell you that investigators say that the school shooter had some sort of altercation at the school earlier in the week and police now say two pistols and an assault rifle were found inside the school near his body. No one, especially little kids, especially little kids -- and you think about the age of these children. No one stands a chance against such firepower.
I want to bring in now CNN contributor and former FBI assistant director Tom Fuentes.
Tom, we're learning some new information about the gunman, how he may have had access to additional rifles and what have you. Before we get to that conversation, let's talk about the conversation that people are having in the country when it comes to gun laws and the Second Amendment right. No one is trying to take away the Second Amendment right.
As I -- as a taxi driver drove me to my hotel at 5:00 in the morning, the taxi driver said, what is Congress doing about gun laws? They're sitting there doing nothing. It's time to act now and stop saying it's not responsible to talk about it after a shooting. This is the time to talk about it.
TOM FUENTES, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Don, I completely agree with you. You know, we always hear this, we can't talk about this today or we've got to be in mourning, we've got to pray for the families, and then a couple of days go by, the emotion dies down, and then nobody cares to talk about it.
So you're right. When is the time? There's no good time. No better time than the present, I think, to at least have the discussion of what is reasonable for the number of firearms that are at large in the society and not to mention that we still have the issue of the very inadequate, inferior mental health system in this country.
So that if you're a parent and if you have a child growing up that has problems and you can see that they have some type of a -- of a brain disorder or mental illness issue, there's not much you can do about it. There's not much help that society gives a family or law enforcement or doctors to deal with mentally disturbed individuals and then combine that with the number of weapons at large and we have disaster after disaster.
We're all upset, we're shocked and outraged. A couple of days go by, nothing changes.
LEMON: Well, and listen, I think you're right about that when it comes to the mental health issue. Here's the thing. If someone has a mental health problem, and they go after someone with a fist, there's a chance that three other people, 10 other people can take them down. If they -- someone with a knife does the same thing, that does not happen with a gun. You have the power with an automatic weapon to take away many, many lives in a split second, and that needs to be addressed, even if you are mentally healthy or mentally unhealthy. Guns do offer you that power.
FUENTES: Well, that's true. But in this case, even more power because --
LEMON: And if you didn't -- and if you didn't have access to those guns, mentally stable or mentally unstable, then people would not be able to take so many lives at once.
FUENTES: Well, that's true. And in a case like this, though, where the shooter stops and reloads, undoubtedly, in order to fire as many bullets as he did, he would have had to have reloaded several times. Who is going to attack him or jump on him? You're not going to have a 5-year-old say, let's roll, and take the gun away from the shooter. It's not going to happen.
They're just going to -- they're going to sit there or stand there or run there, and be killed, and that's what we have in this case.
LEMON: OK. So listen, now we're learning that the gunman may have had access to three additional rifles. He tried to buy a gun as recently as Tuesday. What do you make of these new developments, Tom?
FUENTES: Well, that's interesting. That -- you know, what was going on in his brain that he didn't think the three weapons that he showed up with were enough, a Glock, a Sig Sauer pistol, that have a tremendous firepower, and then combining that with an assault rifle where he could buy a number of 30-round or greater magazine to feed through that gun. That wasn't enough? I mean what did he have in mind? Take out the whole school? We don't know.
LEMON: Yes. Why are investigators so intent on recreating the crime from beginning to end? Is it likely that they're going to discover something new?
FUENTES: Well, it's possible. It's possible they may discover that, and then also in doing his background check, they may find that there may be some other individual out there that triggered this, and we don't know, whether -- not necessarily a co-conspirator but somebody out there that may have knowledge about it and they are going to want to know if he had paperwork on his body when they found him in the school, maybe he wrote some kind of manifesto, you know, good-bye letter to society or whatever, that we don't know about yet. And that may have a clue as to what was on his mind.
But then again, also, they want to -- the authorities want to talk to everybody that's had a conversation with him or dealt with him going back as far as they can, days, months, years even, to see if there was something that showed up in the past that would be an indication of what triggered this, why he wanted to do it, for the purposes of trying to identify that same issue in other people in the future.
LEMON: Tom Fuentes, I really thank you for your candor and for having the conversation with me that everyone is having in this country right now and they want to see something done about this. No matter how you feel about gun laws and Second Amendment rights, it's something that everyone feels needs to be looked at.
And thank you for having that conversation, Tom Fuentes.
FUENTES: Thank you, Don.
LEMON: For more information on how you can help those affected by the shooting, make sure you go to CNN.com/impact. CNN.com/impact.
You know, and as -- you know, because of social media now, the proliferation of social media, people are going online to share their grief and their outrage over this tragedy at Sandy Hook Elementary School. Our iReporters have been sending some very moving commentary. Sending in some very moving commentary on this.
CNN's Josh Levs, monitoring it all for us.
Josh, I can only imagine what you're seeing reading on social media.
JOSH LEVS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, obviously, you know, people are pouring out emotions and also picking up where you just were talking about gun laws. In fact, before we get to an iReport, I want to share something with you that was posted on Facebook by Captain Mark Kelly, husband of Gabby Giffords. There's a family right there that knows a lot about the kind of tragedies that can happen on an otherwise beautiful day that turns into carnage.
Let's take a look at a statement that he has put on Facebook. I want to share these words with you. He says, "As we mourn, we must sound a call for our leaders to stand up and do what is right. This time our response must consist of more than regret, sorrow, and condolence. The children of Sandy Hook Elementary School and all victims of gun violence deserve leaders who have the courage to participate in a meaningful discussion about our gun laws."
And that right there is a good example of the (INAUDIBLE) that's happening among names you know and among many other people around the country and around the world who are raising serious questions about all sorts of laws in this country with a special focus on gun laws and at the same time really being driven by a lot of passion and just intense emotions about what we're all going through now.
This experience traumatized people everywhere. Parents like me and people of all ages and stripes. One of the people who weighed in is one of our iReporters who sent us this video. His name is Omekongo Dibinga. He's in Washington, D.C. He has daughters and he was actually picking up one of his kids at school when he heard the news. Here's part of what he says.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OMEKONGO DIBINGA, CNN IREPORTER: There are so many questions right now, more questions than answers. But what I do know is that we need to find some way to come together around all victims of violence, not just at the Sandy Hook Elementary School. That is the tragic news of the day, but really figure out what we can do to save our children and make them feel safe.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEVS: Folks, we are listening to you. I'm talking with you on Twitter and Facebook, JoshlevsCNN. We're getting a lot on iReport and take a look at what's right here. This photo. This is a photo spread in CNN.com looking at people mourning all over the world. Some of these pictures from inside Connecticut. This one is from Rio. If you just keep going around you will see that there are many pictures of people all over the world holding vigils, sharing the sadness.
The one act of one person that destroyed lives, shattered a community, has shattered millions, and these emotions are being shared all over the world. We are hearing you.
And, Don, I'll be along with you later this hour with some of the latest in the investigation.
LEMON: Josh Levs, thank you very much.
LEVS: You got it.
LEMON: And I have seen those -- witnessed it on the faces of people here. I have not seen people who, quite honestly, looked like this since I've seen the rescue workers from 9/11. Just a blank and stunned look on people's faces as they try to go on with their lives in light of this horrific incident.
Traumatized parents and children have horrifying details of that Connecticut shooting. We have all those details for you.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: The deadly shooting here in Connecticut has changed the lives of some elementary school children forever. And as the kids from Sandy Hook Elementary School, as they rush into the arms of frantic parents, many of them recall the chaos and the fear they had witnessed just a few moments ago.
Our Brian Todd has the details.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The account of a young boy said to be delivering an attendance report to the office at Sandy Hook Elementary School when the shootings took place is surreal.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I saw some of the bullets going past the hall that I was right next to and then a teacher pulled me into her classroom.
TODD: He said he heard a sound like someone kicking a door. His mother, clinging to him, had words of thanks.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm just so grateful to the teacher who saved him.
TODD (on camera): You think the teacher saved his life?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She definitely did. He had bullets going by him and she grabbed him and another child and pulled them into a classroom.
TODD (voice-over): Brendan Murray, a fourth grader, described the chaos.
BRENDAN MURRAY, FOURTH GRADER: I was in the gym at the time. And so the teachers -- we hear, like, lots of bangs. And we thought that it was the custodian knocking stuff down. We heard screaming. And so we -- we went on to -- like, we went to the wall and we sat down and then the police came in. It's like, is he in here? Then he ran out. And then our teacher -- somebody yelled, get to a safe place. So we went into the closet in the gym and we sat there for a little while. And then the police, like, were knocking on the door and they're like, we're evacuating people, we're evacuating people.
TODD: CNN is only airing sound of children whose parents gave permission.
As one woman walked away from the school, she was heard crying, why, why? A policeman was heard saying, it was the worst thing he'd seen in his career. A nurse from nearby Danbury Hospital described the scene there as parents waited for word about their children.
MAUREEN KERINS, NURSE, DANBURY HOSPITAL: These parents were waiting for their children to come out. They thought that they were, you know, still alive. There's 20 parents that were just told that their children are dead. It was awful.
TODD: The father of a young girl who survived was just trying to process it all.
JOE WASIK, FATHER OF SURVIVOR: It was shocking. I got the call at work this morning and I can't believe a small town like this would ever have anything like this happen and to be in an elementary school, it's unheard of.
TODD: By late Friday afternoon and into the evening evacuated children were being cared for and reuniting with their parents at a nearby firehouse.
Brian Todd, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LEMON: What do you say to the children? What do you say to them?
Five years ago, you know, this was the scene. Take a look at this. At New Life Church in Colorado Springs. A nation stunned after a gunman opened fire during a church service and killed two teenage sisters. It is a pain that Pastor Brady Boyd understands deeply and all too well. And Pastor Boyd had just started his role as a senior pastor at New Life when the deadly shooting occurred. He's the author of "Fear No Evil: A Test of Faith, A Courageous Church and Unfailing God."
Pastor Boyd, thank you for joining us on this really just terrible, terrible time in the country. How do you ever heal from this? Can you heal from this?
PASTOR BRADY BOYD, SENIOR PASTOR, NEW LIFE CHURCH: Yes -- yes, you can. And that's the good news. I mean, right now I can't imagine. I have two kids of my own. I can't imagine the pain those parents are feeling and right now they are numb, they're not feeling anything, but -- yes, we're five years after our shooting and I can honestly tell you that we have experienced healing, restoration, we're smiling again, we're laughing again.
But it takes a really long time. And I'm just -- I just want to encourage the people of Newtown, Connecticut to be there for these families months from now, years from now, because it's going to take a while, maybe years, for this community to come back to a sense of normality and healing.
LEMON: Yes. And time heals -- I guess it heals all wounds, as they say, maybe, but, you know, the church in Sandy Hook Elementary in Newtown, both are the last places that you think that this could happen. Yet -- and still it did happen. And what I ask out of the story where you saw how the kids were scrambling to be with their parents. How do you explain this tragedy -- a tragedy of this kind especially to a child?
BOYD: It's -- you know, you do -- you lose your sense of innocence. I mean, you go to a school, that's a place where everything is safe and good. Your teacher is a person that protects and we're hearing unbelievable stories of these teachers and administrators literally laying down their lives for their kids.
What amazing stories and -- at our church, it was a Sunday morning worship service. The last place that you would expect violence but violence did come. And I think -- I think the things is you have to talk honestly about evil, you have to talk about that good overcomes evil. I think you have to make sure your kids feel protected and safe. And we did that at our church. You know, our church is a safe place to worship now, but we've worked really hard at creating a sense of safety and people now are smiling again, and I think you just have to talk honestly with your children and listen honestly and give honest answers to really hard questions.
LEMON: Pastor, my colleague back in Atlanta, Deborah Feyerick, has a question for you.
BOYD: OK.
FEYERICK: Yes, and you know, Pastor, it's interesting, because I hear you say this is -- you know, it's about good versus evil but it's also about life versus death and I read something that really resonated with me. And I wanted to know what you thought about it. But a psychologist wrote, "We walk through life with the wonderful myth of invulnerability. We think our humanity is something special, sacred, and precious," and then something like this comes along and it makes you realize that you are fragile, that you are vulnerable, and that's where the trauma sets in, that oh, my god, this could have been any of our schools. This could be any of our children and, frankly, the shooter could have been somebody we all know.
BOYD: Exactly right. And I think that's one of the issues we need to talk about and this is what we're going to talk about this weekend. It made me think about -- we need to have better conversations about how to be better parents, how to be better friends, how to establish a community where we can have really honest conversations about people that have mental illness, and I think the church is a good place to start that conversation.
I think the community at large has to come together and we have to talk about the realities of the culture in which we live. We do not live in an idealistic perfect world. We live in a broken, fallen world that needs redemption, and we need to start having serious conversations about how to be better parents, how to be better friends, how to have tough conversations with people that we love that --
LEMON: OK, Pastor. Pastor, with that said, then, you're talking about honest conversations and being better parent. I'm just going to read this off. This comes on the heel -- just the Oregon mall shooting, just a week ago. The Sikh temple shooting just a couple of months ago. Colorado movie theater, which I covered in depth, just a couple of months ago. Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords.
And that's just the start. So as a pastor, do you feel that you have a responsibility to talk to your congregation about gun control in this country?
BOYD: I think yes. But the bigger question is violence. And let me tell you what I'm most -- I am concerned about how easy it is for people that are mentally disturbed to get guns. I am very concerned about that.
I'm a gun owner myself but I do have serious concerns about how easy it is for certain people to get their hands on the guns. But there's a bigger question here than just guns. How about the culture of violence? Where's the outrage right now over all the --
LEMON: OK. Pastor, hang on. Hang on. Hang on. Hang on, hang on. I don't want to be disrespectful. Yes, I agree with you, but this particular issue is about guns. This person went in with guns. Numerous guns. And killed many people, children. He didn't beat them up. He didn't knife them. He didn't set off a canister or a Molotov cocktail. He did it with a gun. And every time I'm on a scene covering a story like this, the person does it with a -- with guns. And we continue to say it's about a culture of violence. It's about this. It's about guns, Pastor.
BOYD: Well, I mean, first of all, I own guns and I'm not violent. So I think you do have to separate the two. I -- listen, I'm with you. I heard your conversation earlier and I agree that we need to have careful examination of who can put -- put their hands on a gun. But at the end of the day I know tons of people who own guns that aren't violent.
We do also -- I think we have to talk about both and to -- so I'm agreeing with you, but I'm just adding to this that there is a culture of violence in our movies, and in our games, in our culture, that we need to talk about as well. So I think you can't talk about one without talking about the other. So I agree with you. We have to talk about both.
LEMON: Yes. And I think there are people who are respectful of guns, who know how to use guns, who go out and get training, and they go to shooting ranges. And then there are people who don't respect guns and they don't respect life, and that's the conversation we need to be having. I think we're saying the same thing.
BOYD: No doubt about it.
LEMON: Thank you, Pastor Boyd.
BOYD: Yes, you're welcome.
LEMON: Thank you very much.
BOYD: Thank you so much. God's peace on these people in Connecticut.
LEMON: All right. Amen. Thank you.
President Obama promising to take what he calls meaningful action to prevent tragedies like the Newtown massacre from happening again.
Our White House correspondent Brianna Keilar is live at the White House with the very latest for us.
Brianna, the president said meaningful yesterday. He even teared up. I was at the White House last night for a -- supposed to be a celebration but it was kind of somber and the president mentioned that at the Christmas party the victims of this particular tragedy.
What does he mean by meaningful?
BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Meaningful action, actually, we don't know. What we do know, and this is the sense I'm getting, is that he does mean something, that he does actually mean that some action should be taken but in terms of the specifics, Don, we don't know what they are. It seems -- and this is the sense I'm getting that this is a general promise to pursue something to try to avert future tragedies like this one.
I think the sense here at the White House is that the president has sort of experienced with the country almost a handful now of these tragedies between Ft. Hood, between the shooting of Congresswoman Gabby Giffords, the Colorado shooting, the Sikh temple shooting that you mentioned, and this one, especially with the age of the victims, just really sort of bringing home the fact that something is not working. That there are just too many of these instances happening and something needs to be done.
So we don't know the specifics. The White House isn't there yet, Don, but talking to people who are familiar with what his options may be, one option may be finding a way to renew that semiautomatic weapons ban, that so-called assault weapons ban that expired in 2004. Maybe in a different way than you saw it there from 1994 to 2004. Maybe limiting the number of bullets and magazines, maybe dealing with mental health issues.
And of course we still have yet to see what role that may have played in this tragedy in Connecticut. But reporting of mental health in such a way that maybe people who shouldn't have access to guns indeed don't have access to them. But that's just sort of informed speculation at this point, Don, as we try to sort of figure out exactly what the president means when he says something meaningful.
LEMON: Meaningful action. Meaningful action would be a start, a start at the least.
Thank you, Brianna Keilar, our White House correspondent.
Deborah Feyerick, monitoring some other developing news from the CNN center in Atlanta.
What do you have, Deb?
FEYERICK: All right., Don. Other things that are happening at this hour, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton has sustained a concussion after becoming dehydrated and fainting. She's been suffering from a stomach virus. She's now being monitored by doctors. She's recovering at home.
Syrian rebels are now in control of most of the military academy outside Aleppo. Opposition activists say this comes weeks after fighting with regime troops and it's a sign that government forces are losing ground. A rebel commander told CNN at least 250 government soldiers had defected since the infantry academy came under siege.
And in the U.K., a mass was held today for the nurse who apparently hanged herself after a prank call. Her husband and children spoke publicly about their loss for the first time since her death. Jacintha Saldanha took the hoax call from two Australian deejays regarding Prince William's pregnant wife Catherine. The nurse's funeral will be held on Monday in Southern India -- Don.
LEMON: All right. Thank you very much, Deb. We'll get back to you in a minute. You know, the Connecticut shooting has chilled the hearts of people all across this country and it's brought back some horrifying memories of the Columbine massacre. For survivors of that shooting it is like reliving this nightmare all over again. It's one of the first things we think about when we hear about a school shooting. We think about Columbine.
David Cullen, journalist and author, a "New York Times" bestseller, "Columbine," joins me now from New York.
Dave, you wrote about the Columbine tragedy. Does yesterday's killing bear a resemblance that day -- of that day to that or Virginia Tech or any of the other shootings that we have at schools?
DAVE CULLEN, AUTHOR, COLUMBINE: Well, yes, it does in a whole lot of ways. And -- I mean, especially emotionally for I think all of us, but including -- I talked to quite a few of the Columbine survivors yesterday who were having really, really rough days in different ways.
It pulls that together and then of course the same questions we're asking, too, with everyone wanting to know why and we made a lot of mistakes in that case of jumping too quickly to why. I think the press is much better now at understanding to be more cautious about these things but there's still that desire to understand why this happened and how it fits into this wider picture of why all of these shootings.
LEMON: Yes. Is there anything that -- between all of the shootings, the suspects, is there anything that resonates with you about detecting signs that a person is about to commit such a horrific crime or do these people sometimes just snap?
CULLEN: Yes, that's a great question. They definitely don't snap. That's a word that we should actually try to take out of our vocabulary talking about these things. In almost all cases it's a -- it's a very slow build.
The Secret Service did a remarkable study of all the cases of school shooters over about a 25-year period and the vast majority plan in advance. Many for weeks to months in advance. And I believe I just saw, before we went on air, that now there's a report that this gunman tried to buy a gun apparently on Tuesday, earlier in the week, so at least earlier he was planning.
That's normal. It's typically a slow disintegration. And there are different types of killers. There's no one model at this, no one profile, but there -- well, there are a handful of them. Actually there's three main types and the most prevalent type are the angry depressives who would sound sort of -- shocks a lot of people that a depressive person would become a murderer. But picture a person who is suicidally depressed, who -- Dylan Klebold, the Columbine, for two years, wrote in his journal about committing suicide. It's a really, really slow sort of downward spiral.
Past sadness into a sense of hopelessness and helplessness for most of these people. That may or may not be the situation here but that is most often what we're looking at. And, you know, if there's any lesson from all of these, that's the first, the first easy way to improve the situation is deal with adolescent depression.
LEMON: There -- I was just talking to a White House correspondent. I was talking to former FBI assistant director, Tom Fuentes, about this. The president said some meaningful action to modify gun control. Having covered and written about Columbine, written about Virginia Tech, and witness some of these things, what do you think? Is it time to do something meaningful about gun laws in this country?
CULLEN: I think it really is. And I am sure -- I think several of us are feeling more hopeful of this time perhaps because -- I think we've learned that no one of these events is going to cause a big change. After Columbine there was a lot of hope that will now, you know, the country will wake up and we'll do something, and then we didn't. In fact we left the assault weapons ban expire. After Gabrielle Giffords, there were other different times.
And I think we've sort of learned our lesson that it can't be a response to any one tragedy. We need to sort of like marshal forces and have people becoming more and more adamant. And just like you just were in the previous conversation, like no, you know, we need to take this seriously and I like what you said about, you know, you've been covering this for years, you go to every one of these places every single time you're on site. It's because somebody did this with a gun.
I mean, that's one really obviously a struggling running through all this and let's face the obvious, that there are guns here. And in China, apparently the same day as this somebody went on a rampage with a knife and I don't remember the exact amount of injured, more than 20 people. And so far none of those people have died because it's very hard to kill off a lot of people with a knife.
And guns are half the problem. We've got a problem with the killers themselves and the gun, and we need to stop this conversation of, like, should we talk about the guns or should we talk about the killers? Guns or killers? It's both. You know, we need to address both and try to shrink both of those and make the guns less available and work on the situations with what leads to killers and -- that's the only hope we have of reducing this dramatically.
FEYERICK: You know, and, Dave Cullen, it's Deb Feyerick here. You know, I'm curious about this. When you saw everything that happened with Columbine. You saw how that whole thing played out. The question, obviously, is when somebody wants to do something like this, why do they attack those who in fact are most vulnerable to going to an elementary school to attack 6 -- you know, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9-year-olds.
CULLEN: Right.
FEYERICK: There's something pathological about that.
CULLEN: It is. And that was really appalling to me. In fact, I went back and forth between -- well, I mean, I'll tell you, I spent the last 13 years trying to understand the killers and trying to sort of put myself in their shoes and understand why. Because I've been with so many different conferences with, you know, people who are authorities, have been studying these their entire career, shrinks and law enforcement, FBI people, and one thing that I've, you know, settled on is that I think everybody who studies this agrees the killer always has a reason. In their mind, it's not senseless. They had a reason. It may be a really -- and it is, a ridiculous, awful reason, but there was some reasoning that worked for them and if we're going to really want to solve this, we have to get in their heads and understand from their point of view.
So I -- you know, that's been my mission for the last several years but yesterday I just found that really hard to do. Especially after I saw some of those little kids. Like you just showed that little boy getting interviewed and I don't know how you shoot at one -- I mean, I don't know how you kill anybody but especially --
FEYERICK: Senseless.
CULLEN: -- somebody like that, I don't know how you do one. I don't know how you keep doing it.
FEYERICK: Yes.
CULLEN: But usually is -- but all that aside, I mean I can tell you actually how it sometimes does happen and we don't know if this is the situation here but most often with people who are deeply depressed and suicidal, who want to do something. The most common thing they do if they're going to do something drastic is kill themselves so obviously the suicide.
Then there are people who go one step beyond that and take out whoever they saw as the source of their pain, so it's usually a boss, girlfriend, or family members. Somebody in one of their different inner circles of their life, whoever is causing the pain, where the pain is, they shoot the boss, or the girlfriend, or the parent, or, you know, whoever is sort of like the symbol of that pain.
The next step of people who take it one step further are people who attack not just that person but other person around them. So if the -- if the wife or the girlfriend is the problem, you also kill the best friend who I know is talking bad behind my back or whatever.
FEYERICK: Sure.
CULLEN: You do a wider circle.
LEMON: Yes.
CULLEN: Then the --
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LEMON: And Deb, and Dave?
CULLEN: Take everyone.
FEYERICK: Yes. It's so --
LEMON: And Deb and Dave, we've talked to a lot about -- a lot about this and I think it has to do with something that we don't discuss a lot. Now we're going to start learning more about, and that is these things called attachment injuries, when people feel betrayed by other people, whether it's relevant in their mind or not. They feel betrayed by other people and they lash out and I've been speaking to therapists about this for a lot, a lot lately and I think it's something we're going to learn about.
Perhaps it's what's happened in this case. Maybe not. But Dave and Deb, thanks.
Deb, we'll get back to you in just a minute in Atlanta.
FEYERICK: Sure.
LEMON: But I just want to say, in just two days, students head back to school. What can schools do in the wake of all of this to make it better? What can they do to make sure that their students feel safe and safeguard the facilities where they are? I'll talk to an expert just ahead.
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LEMON: Welcome back, everyone. You should know that I'm standing on the property just in front of me is the Newtown Methodist Church where it is open for 24 hours for anyone who wants to come here and grieve. Anyone who wants to come and pay their respects for the people who have died here in this community. Members of their church have died.
You're looking at -- this is Beth Square. A very busy Beth Square in Newtown, Connecticut. People here have been telling me it's busier than normal. Some people are coming from towns around the area just to see what's going on here and to help console some of the folks here.
As I said at the beginning of this broadcast, we're going to go through this as sensitively and as respectful as we can. This is tough to do, this is tough for any journalist to cover but it's not as tough anywhere as near as what the people who have been affected by this, or dealing with the family. The friends, and our hearts and prayers go out with them.
And that said, I want to say that we are awaiting the latest news conference from Connecticut State Police on this deadly shooting rampage at the Sandy Hook Elementary School right here in Newtown, Connecticut.
Here's what we know right now. A law enforcement official says -- and this is a victim -- this is the suspect's name, 20-year-old Adam Lanza. We will say that as little as possible. We have to do it for the record. That he had some sort of altercation with people at the school a few days before the shooting.
The official does not know -- doesn't know any details about that altercation or who it involved. We also learned from a law enforcement source that the suspect tried to buy a gun three days before the shooting but didn't have the proper paperwork. And police also reveal today that three guns, not two as previously thought, were found near the suspect's body inside the school.
The victims' bodies have been removed from the school. I should say, the heroes in all of this. Their bodies have been removed from the school. And they have been taken to the medical examiner's office. Their names are expected to be released soon. Those are people who led extraordinary lives and who were taken away way too soon.
And just this morning, parents were dropping off their kids like any other day. Just yesterday morning, I should say. Like any other day. No one could have managed the carnage and the horror that went unfold inside Sandy Hook Elementary just hours later.
So many of the victims, sadly, innocent children. How do you cope, even begin to heal or explain what has happened here? I don't know where you start, which is why I want the help of a clinical psychologist.
Jeff Gardere is here.
Jeff, I don't even know where to begin with this. With the community dealing with 26 people, with 20 children, with families dealing with this, parents who sent their kids to school, went off to work or went off to do whatever they were doing, getting ready for the holidays, maybe they were going to buy Christmas presents for the kids. Who knows?
And then you have to deal with this. Where do you start?
JEFF GARDERE, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, I just think we need to be very honest with ourselves that many of us feel like you, Don. We don't know where to begin. But there is -- there is a place and that is what the police are doing now and the mobile crisis units are doing now, which is providing debriefing to not just get information but to allow these families, to allow the parents, to allow the friends, to just be able to talk about what they're experiencing.
Allowing them to ease into this grieving process that's going to be taking such a long time for them to get through, but most importantly, to help stabilize them, making sure that they get information, that they get food, that they get warmth, that they get support and that they have an open communication, shoulders that are available for them to cry on, to lean on. That's where you begin.
LEMON: People have been talking about this suspect, this shooter, the gunman, that he had a form of autism. Autism is not a mental illness. It's not a social illness. It's a -- it's a neurological disorder, right?
GARDERE: That is correct. You're looking at --
LEMON: Neurobiological disorder. GARDERE: Yes, biological. When we're looking at autism, we're looking at, there is a high heritability, in other words that it is inherited. And quite often there are issues with the chromosomes, 15 and 16, which are markers for autism. So we see it is as you say this biological component. We find that 80 percent of people with autism are mentally retarded but you do have a certain portion who are part of the autism spectrum and have, as this person reportedly, allegedly had, some sort of Asperger's which is a very high functioning autism, and some of those individuals are extremely intelligent, but have problems like other autistic persons being able to interact in a social way, spending a lot of time alone, just not having the general social skills.
LEMON: Yes, but you know what, I don't want to disparage everyone who has autism. I mean, can you -- you don't want to blame autism for this problem. Here's why, because many people, as I'm reading here, they describe this gunman as nice and polite. They say he -- they were shocked because he never showed any violent tendencies.
I mean, can you -- can you -- does autism explain this type of behavior? I don't think so.
GARDERE: Quite frankly, autism doesn't explain this at all. I work with many autistic patients. I've worked with people who have high functioning autism, which is Asperger's, and by the way, I should point out, as a cautionary tale, we find one of the major causes of autism is this whole idea of not only is it passed on, but certainly some immune problems that women have when they're carrying their children as far as in utero.
But yes, we just do not find that people who are autistic are violent. We do see that there is an issue as a child goes into manhood or adulthood, they may be much harder to manage, they may have some fits of anger, but we don't see them going out and committing murder and mayhem.
This is more of an issue between a parent and a child getting them to just be more productive. Especially when we're looking at Asperger's, we think that there are heads of corporations who have Asperger's, again, this very high functioning autism.
LEMON: And it's interesting, it's -- it always seems to be some person in their 20s, some young person, and you know, getting older you realize when I was in my 20s, Jeff, I thought I knew everything and every single thing would upset and set me off. And the older you get, the more you realize that you don't know.
What is it -- is there something just about youth that we're not teaching our kids or young people that they think that they know everything and they think that, you know, the world revolves around them and that they have the right and the power to take out other people?
GARDERE: Well, it is that, Don. We see that our youth are very much disaffected, and part of that, and you know, you've known me for years now. I'm not into pointing fingers and blaming the media and blaming this or that, though we do have to look at this whole idea of mental health laws, gun laws and perhaps helping people more than they're getting help. But I really do believe that too often, our children live in a virtual reality. The reality of many violent videos.
And even though we have a lot of kids who play these violent videos and nothing happens to them, they don't go out and kill anyone, if you have a person who has some mental health issues or who may be limited in some way, or is in an environment that is catastrophic, we have to be careful to not let them drift into the margins of society and in this case, as we know with this young man, spending a lot of time gaming, spending a lot of time on these video games because that, as we see, is a recipe for disaster.
LEMON: Living virtual lives instead of interacting and living a real life with other people.
GARDERE: That's right.
LEMON: Thank you, Jeff Gardere. Appreciate that.
GARDERE: Sure.
LEMON: You can bet that schools across the country are going to be re-evaluating their security procedures. This school district had just done it -- to try to prevent a tragedy similar to what happened here in Connecticut.
Kenneth Trump is the president of the National School Safety and Security Services, and he joins me now live from Cleveland.
So, Kenneth, parents are on the edge thinking about sending their children back to school after the shooting. I imagine many parents are. What can schools immediately do to keep their kids safe?
KEN TRUMP, PRESIDENT, NATIONAL SCHOOL SAFETY AND SECURITY: Parents need to remember that the first thing they should do is to send their children to school. Monday will be the safest day you could ever be in a school in this country because there's going to be a heightened awareness and heightened security measures. So that's critical. We saw waves of children stay home after Columbine. And we don't want to see that now.
Parents should also feel comfortable talking to your principals. What are you doing in my child's school to improve safety? How well prepared are you to manage an emergency situation? Many schools are already doing things. Parents, unfortunately, just don't know about it or haven't asked and the schools perhaps haven't communicated as proactively as they should.
I don't think we need to throw out the playbook of best practices in school safety. We don't need to be teaching elementary kids to throw pencils and backpacks at armed intruders and have a metal detector at every door. I do think that we need to focus on the fundamentals that we've learned from Columbine dealing with prevention, mental health services, counselors, psychologists, security, school resource officers, training your staff, having emergency plans, practicing drills. These things are solid best practices.
LEMON: Hey, Kenneth. Kenneth, I want to go back to something you said.
TRUMP: Yes.
LEMON: Every single person -- to a person, everyone who's spoken to me today about this issue when -- when we're talking about guns, everyone has said mental health, mental health, mental health. And that seems to be a big issue.
What -- is there something that we're missing when it comes to mental health or teaching people about mental health issues or learning more about mental health of students? Is there something missing here?
TRUMP: Well, if you recall back to Columbine, though, for years, bullying was blamed, but in some research that was done by two separate authors, they really came down to the same issue again of mental health. We've seen it in most of the school shootings. And I think it's very easy to talk about getting your arms around bullying or things that we can all relate to, but mental health is much more complex.
How do you -- there are many people walking our streets with undiagnosed and/or untreated mental health issues. How do we know that? It's easier to predict student-on-student violence and to get a jump ahead of that when you know your kids. It's harder for a principal to know that a stranger, a lone wolf actor is going to walk across the schoolhouse door and what their mental status is.
LEMON: Yes. Listen, let's talk more about just securing the schools. We can't turn schools into mini prisons for students. So then what do you do?
TRUMP: The first and best line of defense is always a well-trained highly alert staff and student body. The number one way we find out about weapons in school consistently has been from kids who know that other kids have them and when we're talking about violence inside the school, having school resource officers who build relationships with kids along with other school staff so that the kids come forward to tell you problems that are going on at home.
Abuse, family dysfunctional issues, situations that are going to add family stressors that may spill over into the school. Talking with your staff to make sure that your school employees honestly feel comfortable to tell their principal of things that are going on at home with domestic situations that could spill over into our schools. Making sure that you're doing basic training so that -- so that teachers and staff greet and challenge, report strangers, keep people outside of schools.
We have many crisis plans in most schools. The problem is they're often sitting on a shelf collecting dust. The staff haven't been trained and they don't drill. We heard in Connecticut yesterday that schools had practice lockdown so staff had been trained. We saw that staff knew what to do and literally teachers, adults, who love kids stepped, in front and took a bullet to protect their children. And I think that the human aspect of school safety is much more stronger than any camera and metal detector will ever be.
FEYERICK: And thank you so much. We appreciate that. Obviously, so many of those teachers did such a heroic job just getting their children in safe places, putting them in closets, locking them in bathrooms, barricading them until they knew that the school was safe, was in lock down. Thank you so much for joining us.
And as the Connecticut community and the nation try to come to grips with this terrible tragedy, we're going to have a lot of the latest developments in the next hour of our special coverage live from Newtown, Connecticut, thank you.
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