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Victim's Family Speak Out; President Obama Attends Town Vigil; Profile of Gunman; Video Games and Violence; Arming Teachers

Aired December 16, 2012 - 21:04   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: A powerful, very moving interfaith prayer vigil here in Newtown, Connecticut. We heard from the clergy, from various religions, the religions of the United States of America. We heard, of course, from the President of the United States, and he vowed, after the senseless murders in Arizona, in Colorado, in Wisconsin, and now here in Connecticut, he vowed that he would do whatever his office would allow him to do, whatever powers he now has, to try to make sure this does not happen again. And he will work diligently in that area.

Anderson Cooper, we watched these faith, they were well representative -- represented. We can only hope and pray that those who now mourn will get at least a little bit of comfort from what we just saw.

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: And the president, toward the end of his remarks asking if we are, all of us as a society, doing all we can to protect our children. He said he felt we are not and he kept -- and he said we can do better.

Very powerful words from President Obama ending this ceremony, and now people in the audience greeting one another, hugging one another. First responders are still on site.

And, Wolf, a very moving moment when the first responders came into the room shortly before the service began, there was a standing ovation for them. And no doubt many people now approaching those first responders, just wanting to thank them, and shake their hand, hug them, perhaps share a tear with them.

A lot of people who were watching in overflow rooms and even outside. They're huddled under blankets given out by the Red Cross are slowly walking away, walking past the location where we are, past a makeshift memorial, which is outside the high school, pausing for a moment. Some carrying candles. Some depositing those candles down on the ground, slowly walking back to their cars with their families.

This has been a very moving service hearing from, as you said, a number of denominations, from pastors, a number of -- we heard from a rabbi, as well as a representative of the Muslim community, singing. Overall, very moving ceremony.

Don Lemon is standing by. He's been talking with people who have been watching the service, who have been stopping by the makeshift memorial all evening long. Don, what have you been hearing from people? DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: I've been hearing a lot. There were people who were, of course, coming by to light candles and drop things off, Anderson. Some people were standing out here watching the memorial service on their smartphones, on CNN and then over in the Stone River Grill, a tavern just across the street here, they were watching.

You can see there's a band here that says, "Remember the children," as they walked by. And they had been playing and walking up and down the street here. People have been hugging each other. They have been crying, they have been comforting each other. The people who are watching in the tavern across the street after the president spoke came out to talk. Some people were watching in restaurants.

Chris, you were watching as well. The president offer any words of comfort to you?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, I think he -- what he said that was comforting was that he thinks it's time for change and time to actually do something about all the -- all the violence that we've been having lately in this country.

LEMON: And you know that violence.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, I had a son that was murdered five and a half years ago, so this definitely stirs up a lot of those emotions for me, absolutely, with all the little innocent children that died.

LEMON: Yes. To see this memorial and to see the people all coming together, does that comfort you at all to the people in the community?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It does. It's a wonderful area. The people in Newtown are beautiful people. And I think it's -- I think the way people are just bonding together, it says a lot about this community, just this part of the country.

LEMON: All right. Thank you.

There are people here that are hanging Japanese birds over here that they said that they'd had during their wedding. A thousand wishes, they say, for everyone who's involved in this. And other folks who are coming really from all around the area just to pay their respects and to offer comfort to each other here as we listen to this band and we finish up the memorial here.

This one is temporary, but I'm sure a permanent one will be erected, but this one will have to offer comfort for the time being.

Wolf Blitzer, a moving ceremony by the president and a very touching moment really here in Newtown in the square where people are just paying their respects and loving each other.

BLITZER: As they should right now. I think the whole country has been moved by what we have just seen and will reflect on what we have just seen as well. I was especially moved at the end when the president of the United States read the names of those kids who were killed Friday morning at the elementary school here in Newtown, Connecticut. And let's remember who these people were.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Just a tragic, tragic situation for the teachers, the principals, and those angels. That's all I keep thinking about is those angels.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I mean, when things happen to your children, and to other people's children, I mean, I can't look at my children's faces now without seeing the faces of every one of their schoolmates.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PIERS MORGAN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening. It's been an incredibly moving vigil tonight in Newtown, Connecticut, as the community comes together to mourn its lost children and their teachers.

This country is grieving as well. Let by visibly emotional President Obama. He met with families, including the baby granddaughter of slain principal, Dawn Hochsprung. Then he spoke to the people of Newtown and to the nation, promising to do all he can to prevent further tragedies like this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: In the coming weeks, I'll use whatever power this office holds to engage my fellow citizens, from law enforcement, to mental health professionals, to parents and educators, in an effort aimed at preventing more tragedies like this. Because what choice do we have? We can't accept events like this as routine. Are we really prepared to say that we're powerless in the face of such carnage?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MORGAN: In the midst of this almost incomprehensible tragedy, there were heroes. One of them, Vicki Soto, a 27-year-old first grade teacher, gave her life to protect her students.

Joining me now, those members of her family, Vicki's sister, Carlee Soto, her mother, Donna Soto, her sister, Jillian Soto, her brother, Carlo Soto, and her cousin, Jim Wiltsie.

Welcome to you all. It's been an incredibly moving day, again, in Newtown. And the words of the president, in particular, this evening, very evocative, clearly controlled anger. He wants to try and do something, anything, to stop this happening again. The appalling tragedy, which has affected so many families, including your own.

If I may start with you, Donna, Vicki was your daughter, she was 27. There have been so many tributes to her being paid by so many people. What would you like to say?

DONNA SOTO, VICKI SOTO'S MOTHER: I'd just like everyone to know that she was just a beautiful, beautiful young lady. She had such passion for teaching and for life and especially for her family. She was extremely close to her siblings that are sitting with me, and her cousins, and loved them dearly. And wanted to be a teacher from the time she was 3. That's all she ever wanted to do.

And she just loved her kids. She just talked about them all the time with such fondness and caring, and she just adored them. And I have no doubt in my mind she did everything she could to protect every single one of them.

MORGAN: What she did was incredibly heroic, and she saved many lives with her actions. Knowing her, as her mother, as well as anybody in the world knew her, did it surprise you that she was so courageous in such a terrifying moment?

D. SOTO: Not at all. She was truly selfless. She would not hesitate to think to save anyone else before herself, and especially children. She loved them more than life and she would definitely put herself in front of them any day, any day and for any reason. So it doesn't surprise anybody that knows Vicki that she did this.

MORGAN: Carlee, Vicki was your sister, you were all very close, as your mother just said. It's obviously a terrible, wrenching loss, and you must be grieving horribly, and yet at the same time hearing the president of the United States talk about your sister as a hero, it must have been very moving to you.

CARLEE SOTO, VICKI SOTO'S SISTER: It was, very much. I appreciate all his kind words that he did say about my sister. She was a hero, and she still is.

MORGAN: What kind of person was she, Carlee?

C. SOTO: She was so caring. She put anybody else before her. She wanted the best for everyone. She just loved life and she loved teaching.

MORGAN: And Jillian, you're all wearing green because that was Vicki's favorite color, and I heard you say this morning that when it snowed, you felt that it was in some way a signal from your sister.

JILLIAN SOTO, VICKI SOTO'S SISTER: It was. It's like her looking down at us and letting us know that she's here with us and she loved the Christmas holiday. She loved everything about it, the snow that comes with it, so when it started to hail, the three of us knew it was our sister saying that I'm here with you guys, even through all of this.

(CROSSTALK)

MORGAN: Carlos --

J. SOTO: And green is her favorite color. And we --

MORGAN: I'm sorry.

J. SOTO: Anyone wearing -- we just wanted to wear the green to show how much we love her and honor her for it. MORGAN: Carlos, you were Vicki's brother. When you heard what had happened at the school, it must have been, I imagine, the worst moment of your life. Try and sum up for me what it's been like for you as a family since this dreadful, dreadful moment happened.

CARLOS MATTHEW SOTO, VICKI SOTO'S BROTHER: It's just been horrible. There's been so many people here to support us, and I really think that she wanted us to come back together. And we've always been close, but she's just going to bring us closer, and I know we'll always remember her for this.

MORGAN: And Carlos, how do you feel about the way the community has rallied together? The president noticed this, that you've come together as a community, not just those who have lost people, but just the whole community. And you've been joined by America, I think, that's been shattered by what's happened, from the president down.

What do you think will happen with Newtown now? How will they recover from this?

M. SOTO: I don't think it will ever be a full recovery. I know that these 27 people that lost their lives will be remembered and will be missed to the fullest, and I just -- it's just so thankful to know that everyone in Stratford has been touched by her life somehow and that just came here to celebrate her life.

MORGAN: I understand, Donna, that you and Carlee met with the president today? Can you talk about that?

D. SOTO: We all met with the president today. It was -- he was very, very caring and very supportive and told us he knew all about Vicki and what she did and what a hero she was. And he was just very, very kind to us and gave us the time we need with him, and it was -- it was very comforting.

MORGAN: And James, you were Vicki's cousin, you're also a police officer. It was very noticeable in the president's speech tonight that he seems, although he never mentioned the word guns, he is determined to do whatever he can, he said, to try and prevent another shooting tragedy like this. And many are taking this to mean gun control, whatever it may be.

What was your reaction as a policeman to what he was saying there?

JIM WILTSIE, VICKI SOTO'S COUSIN: I got to be honest, I didn't see or hear his speech yet. We -- after we met with him, he was just love and support from him was comforting for the family. I got the family back here to Stratford.

To try and answer your question, just as any other issue, I would have to say awareness, awareness, awareness, awareness. Friends, family, gun supporters, people that oppose guns, just awareness. And being aware of your surroundings.

MORGAN: I want to thank you all for --

WILTSIE: I don't know what else to say.

MORGAN: No, listen, I don't want to press you on this. It's not the time for you as a family to consider these things. It will be for the president and for politicians, I think, to do what needs to be done. But I do want to thank you all very much for taking the time to join me this evening and just to send you on behalf of everybody here at CNN and America that's been thinking of you and your family.

You know, Vicki was a heroine, true American heroine, and lives of many children were saved by her actions. And so your loss is appalling, but her legacy and her memory, I think, will live on for a very, very long time. Thank you all very much.

D. SOTO: Thank you.

WILTSIE: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you.

MORGAN: Very brave family.

And I want to bring in Wolf Blitzer, who's on the scene of tonight's vigil.

Wolf, it's a pretty unbearable story, this, to cover, isn't it? You can only even begin to imagine what on earth these families are going through. What did you make of the president's speech tonight? It's been very emotional, pretty determined, and although he never mentioned the word guns, pretty obvious, I think, that he is going to try and do something fairly dramatic to try and do something, as he put it, doing nothing is not an option anymore.

BLITZER: He says he's going to use every opportunity he has with the power of his office, the presidency of the United States, to try to make sure this does not happen again. Even if he can save one or two or three young kids, he wants to do it. And it was a clear reference -- I don't think there's any doubt, Piers, no doubt in your mind, no doubt in my mind, no doubt in the minds of anyone who was listening what the president was talking about, even though he didn't say, for example, we must, you know, get new gun legislation to control guns in the United States, the assault weapons ban or whatever, that's clearly what he's driving at and what he's going to try to do.

Whether or not he succeeds, that's another manner. Because, as you know, there's a lot of opposition to a much greater gun control in this country, but I think he's going to try. He didn't try during the first four years. There were a lot of other issues on his agenda, including a U.S. economy that was near, not only recession, but potentially another depression.

He had a lot going on, two wars. But right now, having just been reelected, having just gone through what we heard one of the -- one of the ministers saying, one of the people who met with him, say this was -- this past Friday when he heard about what happened at that elementary school here in Newtown, Connecticut, the worst day of his presidency. I think there's no doubt he's going to try to do something in this second term as far as gun control is concerned.

And that will be a priority. He wants to -- he wants to use the office of the presidency to try to save some lives, and I think he's going to do the best he can on this area. I don't know if he'll succeed, because this is a tough issue, as you know, in the U.S. Senate, U.S. House of Representatives, but he'll give it a shot.

MORGAN: I think that's right. And I think he's picked up on what is a national mood that I detect after this particular horrifying incident, one of the worst you could possibly imagine. I detect there is a different mood about this whole issue and I think that action has got to be taken. Because the American public are going to demand it.

Wolf, for now, thank you very much indeed.

The tragedy in Newtown raises extremely difficult and painful questions, questions people across the country are all wrestling with tonight. When we come back, I'll ask Dr. Xavier Amador who's consulted on many mass shootings. What he now thinks.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MORGAN: With candles, flowers, and cards, people gathered tonight at a memorial for the victims in Newtown. And as a community mourns, we're learning new details about the gunman, Adam Lanza.

With me now is Dr. Xavier Amador. He's a profiler and psychologist. He's consulted on many mass shootings in the past. We spoke on Friday.

Right at the top, I want to clarify one thing we discussed which I think was misconstrued slightly, which is about the potential discussed, which is about the potential mental illness that this young man suffered from. It's suggested that it is possibly Asperger's, a form of autism.

Clarify that and clarify whether there's any real science that suggest people that have that kind of condition might be violent.

XAVIER AMADOR, PSYCHOLOGIST, LEAP INSTITUTE: There is none. There's absolutely no evidence that if you have Asperger's that you're more likely to be violent than anybody else. And the other thing is -- and I got some e-mails and blogs after our last conversation. I didn't intend to say that people with Asperger's lack empathy. It's that they lack the ability to judge social cues. I look at how you're looking at me, and so on, and it may look like I don't have empathy. And I wanted to clear that up as well.

MORGAN: More and more detail is emerging about him, although still no sign of any proper motive. What we do know is he killed his mother, he then went to the school and carried out this atrocity. Clearly looks like he planned it quite carefully. The FBI seized a computer. One of the things they know is that he was playing pretty violent video games, reenacting battle scenes with graphic characters and so on. And I was debating this on Twitter today, if you're watching and you want to get involved in any of this, then @PiersMorgan, tell me, many of you feel very strong about all these things. People saying there's no link between any of this and anyone watching violent video games, but here's my question.

In all your experience, if somebody is mentally ill, mentally unstable, vulnerable, if you like, and they are watching very violent video games a lot, can it stimulate them, does it desensitize them? Can it be part of the provocation, if you like, for making them go and do an atrocity?

AMADOR: I don't think it makes -- it's part of the provocation. Let me say something. When we're talking about mental illness, doesn't mean you're mentally unstable. You know, the majority of people in treatment with serious mental illnesses likes Asperger's, schizophrenia, bipolar, are stable, are living lives, productive lives, are working. And let's be really clear about that.

What happens, I look at that research for many, many years because there was an attempt to ban -- there's a Supreme Court case on this.

MORGAN: Well, the Columbine killer also had watched a lot of videos.

AMADOR: Yes. So my read to the research, my read of the headline is that, yes, when you -- when you're engaged in, you know, very vivid videos where you're shooting people, killing people, what happens is you're desensitized to what it means to pull a trigger. Certainly that -- the science there is very good, but a lot of that research is flawed in that people are selected not -- you can't know ahead of time if the people who are drawn to these games are already people prone to violence and aggression, regardless of the issue of mental illness.

MORGAN: And, again, I think people who play these games are perfectly normal, whatever normal means these days, and it has no affect on them, I totally accept that.

There's another argument that's been raising, Morgan Freeman, the actor, blamed the media for much of this. He thinks it's a copycat syndrome, the media, by making it, as he put it, almost like grotesque heroes of these people --

AMADOR: Right.

MORGAN: -- by constantly naming them, somehow propagate this ongoing situation with so many mass shootings.

Do you think he's right? I mean, I didn't agree with him ruling out gun control --

(CROSSTALK)

AMADOR: I don't think he's right. I don't think he's right.

MORGAN: Is he right about it? AMADOR: No, he's not. I'll blame the media for one thing only, which is it's re-traumatizing us. You know, do you remember with 9/11 there was a call for the media to stop showing the jets flying into the buildings, because psychologists like myself and others were seeing our patients having vivid flashbacks, nightmares, and post-traumatic stress disorder reaction. So, you know, excessive coverage of -- of this can be traumatizing.

I've looked at pictures of dead children and babies in the cases I've worked on and I've had nightmares. And one case in particular I still have flashbacks to just looking at pictures, but no, it doesn't -- it doesn't cause this kind of thing.

And can I say one thing really, really clearly, that I only touched on on Friday? Your chances of being shot and killed in a mass shooting like this are actually less than being struck by lightning. I'm not saying we shouldn't cover this, I'm not saying you shouldn't talk about this, but, you know, I'm sorry, Morgan Freeman, this is not causing --

MORGAN: I'm just hearing apparently Morgan Freeman has come out and said this is a hoax, although it's been running all over the media for the last 24 hours. It may be a hoax, as he appears to now be clarifying. Either way, though, it's a debate that a lot of people I've been I think seeing on Twitter.

A few of the CNN anchors, Anderson Cooper and others, believe you shouldn't be naming. You know, it's a perfectly valid thing, I think, for people to be thinking about quite carefully.

AMADOR: It is a valid thing to be thinking about, but then you turn to the research, and if you have any reliable and valid research you can -- you can to look at, and you can look at experts who can assess the truthfulness of the conclusions. We don't see that coverage like this causes violence.

MORGAN: Final question, everybody wants to know the same thing, why would a 20-year-old boy, who just seemed to be a little bit of a loner, a little bit strange, but nothing dangerous at all, why would he go to a school and kill 20, 5, 6, 7-year-old kids?

AMADOR: The person who has the answer maybe is Adam. We -- one thing we know is that people with mental illnesses and people who don't have mental illnesses who do these things isolate themselves first. So what we need to do is build bridges to these people. Because I'll tell you what, the people who are violent and are prone to suicide, in my field, we prevent those kinds of things all the time when we build a relationship with the person, where they actually will talk to me and say, you know what, doc, I'm thinking, I'm so angry I'm thinking about killing my mother.

MORGAN: A lot may, of course, come from his computer hard drive, which the FBI have and we'll just have to wait and see.

Dr. Amador, thank you very much for joining me. Appreciate it. When we come back, what may be the most important issue that America faces tonight. What to do about guns. It's truly a question of life and death and feelings on both sides are very emotive. I'll talk to both sides after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: And we will have to change. Since I've been president, this is the fourth time we have come together to comfort a grieving community torn apart by mass shootings. Fourth time we've hugged survivors, the fourth time we've consoled the families of victims. And in between, there have been an endless series of deadly shootings across the country, almost daily reports of victims, many of them children.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MORGAN: President Obama in tonight's vigil calling for change, but the question remains what America should do about guns.

With me now is Dan Gross, he's the president of the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, and Steve Dulan, who's the attorney for the Michigan Coalition of Responsible Gun Owners.

Let me get your reaction, first of all, Dan Gross. What did you make of what the president said, and how serious do you think he is about actually doing something rather than just words?

DAN GROSS, BRADY CAMPAIGN TO PREVENT GUN VIOLENCE: We're inspired. I mean, we're inspired to take him at his word. The president, since this has happened, has called for meaningful action. I mean, he's saying all the right things, and he's talking about all the right things. It's up to us, the American public, now, including all the victims that have been impacted by these tragedies, to make sure he does take that action. And that -- those are the dots that need to be connected.

But, you know, this is -- this is the time. Change has to happen. And this really is a pivotal moment in the history of this issue, and you can just sense it watching this tonight and seeing how that community is grieving and knowing how our whole nation is grieving.

So we do think that this is a time for change and we do think that President Obama is going to lead us in the right direction.

MORGAN: Steve Dulan, the nature of this debate, I think, needs to be crystallized and clarified. Because too many people on both sides take extreme positions and put words in the mouths of their opponents. You know, you and I had got a heated discussion on Friday because emotions were running high. But the reality, I think, is this, nobody is suggesting a ban on all guns in America.

It's part of the culture. The right to bear arms over the Second Amendment is absolutely part of American culture and people believe in it. However, there are limitations. The amendment talks of a well- regulated militia. And people are crying out, I think, for something which regulates again, which just takes some of these weapons away from people with potential mental issues.

And, you know, to me, the question for you is this, the last three mass shootings in the last four months in America, Aurora, Oregon in the shopping mall and now here in Newtown, all involved young people using the same weapon, an AR-15 semiautomatic rifle, all with high- capacity magazines.

In Aurora, over 100 in his magazine, which he could fire off, and here we saw up to 30, but a lot of magazines.

Here's the question, why do you feel that Americans should have those if your belief is they just have to defend themselves?

STEVE DULAN, MICHIGAN COALITION OF RESPONSIBLE GUN OWNERS: Well, before I go any further, Piers, first, thanks for having me back. We did have a heated discussion last time and I much appreciate this more calm discussion. Second, on behalf of -- I'm sure I speak for the entire board and membership of the Michigan Coalition for -- of Responsible Gun Owners, we offer our sincere condolences and sympathy for the victims and their families.

We are all about safety. And we all agree that we want to be safe and we certainly want children to be safe. And as I said last week, we just disagree on how to get there from here. Now, you know, to answer your question, I would point out that the shooter in the mall in Oregon was confronted by a legally armed citizen who pointed his gun at the shooter and then decided not to squeeze the trigger because he was afraid of missing and hitting bystanders. He was acting very responsibly.

And the next shot that that shooter fired, that the killer fired, was on himself after he was confronted with an armed citizen. So that's actually one example of a responsible gun owner using a gun to save lives.

MORGAN: Well, he actually didn't use the gun. And I think the point, Dan, unless I'm mistaken.

GROSS: Yes.

MORGAN: You take it up here. But I don't think that any American citizen with a legal gun has ever intervened in a mass shooting, certainly not in the last 30 or 40 years in America. So it seems to be a bit of a myth --

GROSS: Actually, they have.

(CROSSTALK)

MORGAN: Let Dan speak.

GROSS: Before this evolves into an argument, I mean, as easy as it is to become uninspired by a conversation like this and what your other guest is saying, I just encourage the American people to not lose the sense of inspiration in terms of the change that we have the potential to accomplish.

This is not the conversation that the American public want to have. This is not our vision where the answer to violence is more violence, where the answer to guns is more guns. There is fertile ground where the overwhelming majority of Americans agree with things like background checks to make sure that 40 percent of all gun sales that are not currently covered by background checks to prevent mentally ill people from getting guns, to prevent criminals and domestic abusers from getting guns, to close that gaping hole in our system.

And gun owners, you know, 74 percent of NRA members support solutions like that. So, you know, unfortunately, sometimes this plays out as a polarized political debate in segments like the one that I was part of also on Friday night, but the reality is the American public isn't polarized. The only place where this is really a polarized political debate is in Congress. And what we need to do is we need to take the voice of the American people that know that, as President Obama said tonight, we can be better than this and hold our leaders accountable.

MORGAN: Right. And I think that the politics -- it's very interesting to me.

GROSS: Yes.

MORGAN: This is almost a mirror tragedy of what happened in Britain in 1996 and Dunblane in Scotland. Sixteen young 5- and 6-year-old children were killed. It was the worst shooting of its type in modern American history, and as a result, a full handgun ban was brought in, which would not be applicable here because there are too many in circulation.

However, it did happen, but what was most notable about the debate was it was completely non-political. It never descended into left and right.

So my question for you, Steve Dulan, is, why does this have to be political? Why can it not just be a bipartisan, all encompassing American dialogue, which leads in the end to pragmatic solution?

DULAN: I agree with your last statement, absolutely, Piers. In fact, our group is a single issue, non-partisan group. We have Democrats, Republicans and independents on our group and in our membership, and most of them are elected officials. So we actually do take that position.

GROSS: Do you agree with universal background checks?

DULAN: Universal background checks?

GROSS: Yes.

DULAN: You know we've got that national list and criminal background check in place.

GROSS: Right, but that --

DULAN: And we all agree --

GROSS: But that only applies to 60 percent of gun sales.

DULAN: OK. I'd like to be finished.

GROSS: So do you agree with covering the other 40 percent of gun sales with background checks?

DULAN: We agree that disqualified individuals should not have access to firearms. Absolutely.

GROSS: So you agree with the background checks that would be --

DULAN: One of the issues -- are you going to let me finish? Please, please.

(CROSSTALK)

MORGAN: Well, let me ask you, let me ask you, Mr. Dulan. Give me one good reason why there shouldn't be 100 percent background checks on all gun transactions in America. Give me a good reason.

DULAN: It's literally impossible, Piers, as you pointed out a moment ago, to do 100 percent. We have a lot of guns in circulation on earth and in the United States. We know that guns pass across borders.

GROSS: We're talking about the new ones.

DULAN: We know that gun pass national and state borders.

MORGAN: Well, let me focus --

DULAN: And as far as new purchases --

MORGAN: Let me focus the question more solidly and more realistically. New guns purchased from this day forward, would you be supportive of 100 percent registration, accountability, database, a national database, and if you're not in favor of that, why wouldn't you be?

GROSS: Or as close as we can get to 100 percent, which is a lot closer than where we are now.

DULAN: The system we have in place right right now is a list of those folks who are disqualified. And personally, I would support that based on everything that I've been able to learn in my position as professor of firearms law and in my position as a trainer of concealed pistol licensees that national list and check system seems to be working quite well. I believe that's one area where almost everyone agrees.

GROSS: So we should apply to 100 percent of gun sales?

DULAN: We've got a list of folks who are disqualified who have been adjudicated mentally ill, who have felony records that disqualify them, et cetera. And that system seems to work quite well.

MORGAN: OK. We've got to wrap it. But final question for you, Steve Dulan, is this. In light of the fact the last three mass shootings, as I said, all featured an AR-15 rifle aided and abetted by high- capacity magazines, give me a good reason why you are comfortable with those weapons still being sold in connection, with high-capacity magazines in America in places like Wal-Mart.

DULAN: Fair enough. And I don't know any particular retailer, but I will say we did actually try from 1994 to 2004, we tried the so-called assault weapons ban. It had no impact on crime that anyone could measure whatsoever, and the truth is sometimes these guns are used in very positive ways to save lives. They are functionally identical to semi-automatic weapons that date back literally to the 1800s.

A high-capacity magazine is nothing but a steel box and a spring. It's incredibly easy to make a high-capacity magazine. The truth is that any such ban would be ineffective.

GROSS: This is totally disconnected with what the American people want and the conversation that's happening out there, and that's what gives me inspiration to continue to have conversations like this because the American public knows that we are better than this. We don't want to live in a society where violence leads to more violence and guns lead to more guns. And that's the conversation that's starting, that's the conversation that President Obama is leading and that the American people need to speak up around.

MORGAN: OK. Got to leave it there. Steve Dulan and Dan Gross --

DULAN: We all agree that we need safety.

MORGAN: Well, we're all agreed on that. And I'm sure this debate will continue and we will continue it on this show because it's been a very important one for America.

Thank you both.

President Obama tonight said we can't tolerate this anymore, but will there really be a change in gun policy? I'll ask Frank Bruni after the break.

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REP. LOUIE GOHMERT (R), TEXAS: I wish to god she had had an M-4 in her office locked up so when she heard gunfire she pulls it out and she didn't have to lunge heroically with nothing in her hands, but she takes him out, takes his head off before he could kill those precious kids.

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MORGAN: Texas Congressman Louie Gohmert saying something that many Americans will agree with but is arming teachers the solution? With me now is "New York Times" columnist, Frank Bruni.

Frank, I'll be honest, when I hear that, I just despair, but it is a view that many Americans have and polls suggest that that if the teachers had all been armed, one of them would have shot this guy, and children's lives would have been saved.

FRANK BRUNI, NEW YORK TIMES COLUMNIST: Do you remember the shooting at the Empire State Building earlier this year? And most of the people injured were injured by police bullets? Right. If police officers can't fire with accuracy, they can't prevent themselves from injuring these people, why would we believe that teachers in schools would have such wonderful marksmanship that they would make this a better thing and not a worst thing? I just think to put our faith in putting more guns out there, it defies common sense. It's just not logical.

MORGAN: I find the whole labeling of more guns, less crime, less gun murder is just ridiculous. It cannot be true. America has the most guns of any of the civilized world.

BRUNI: Right. And we have the most gun related deaths.

MORGAN: Yes.

BRUNI: Yes.

MORGAN: But twice as many as anybody else.

BRUNI: Right. Right.

MORGAN: And yet the penny doesn't seem to drop with people.

BRUNI: No. No, I mean, you know, you had Dan Gross on before. I met him back in 1997 when at another Empire State shooting, (INAUDIBLE), his brother was horribly, horribly wounded. Brain damage for life. I hadn't seen Dan until now. That was 1997. I've been writing on and off about gun control since then.

Since then, 15 years, states have gotten more lax, the federal government hasn't done anything. I think we're at a point right now where we're really going to see what we're made of. I feel like there's a degree of heartbreak and there's a level of outrage right now that is bigger than I've ever seen. We're going to find out right now whether we're willing to do something about it.

MORGAN: I completely agree, and I think one of the reasons that President Obama is emotional about this now, he -- as he said, since he's been president, this is the fourth time he's talked in front of a community torn apart by shootings.

BRUNI: That's right.

MORGAN: You know, I think sixth of the worst mass shootings in American history have happened since 2007. This is bordering on an epidemic, and something has to happen. You cannot -- BRUNI: It's not bordering any more, it is.

MORGAN: It is an epidemic.

BRUNI: Yes. It is. And I think something will change. I -- for the first time out of this misery, I feel a little bit of hope. You know, I watched your show Friday, the amount of outrage in your voice was higher than I had ever scene. I think about the opening of "Saturday Night Live" last night, with that rendition of "Silent Night."

MORGAN: Yes.

BRUNI: I looked at the president on TV tonight. It feels to me like people have finally had enough. And we don't know that some of the things being proposed are the right answers. And the president very, very wisely acknowledged that tonight. He said, you know, causes are complex and we don't know -- basically we have an obligation to try. And I think those were key words.

I think we all finally realized that whether something is going to work or not, we can't just say, oh, the assault weapons ban didn't work so well, let's not try something like it. No, we have an obligation to try. Because there are all of these dead children who are not going to live to see tomorrow. And we owe their memories, our best effort even if it's a flawed effort.

MORGAN: And is it -- it's a multi-faceted thing. Because you have the mental health issues, I think Americas is poor --

BRUNI: Yes.

MORGAN: -- in dealing with mental health. I think millions of Americans suffer from mental illness in some capacity and are therefore potentially vulnerable, many of them.

BRUNI: Right.

MORGAN: To not this kind of outrage but something. And there has to be a better system.

BRUNI: Yes. We --

MORGAN: On guns, it has to be a specific debate. It's no good to saying ban guns. It's never going to happen in America. And there are too many of them out there. However, the assault weapons ban, I just don't believe it was as ineffectual as a lot of the gun lobby would like us to believe. It just wasn't. And --

BRUNI: I'm with you --

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MORGAN: The idea of stopping an assault weapon ban, allowing them to come back in. Why does any young man in America, or woman -- but they're all men at the moment -- need one of these AR-15 assault rifles, capable of firing hundreds of bullets a minute -- BRUNI: Or the high capacity clips. I mean, you mentioned the high capacity clips earlier, which I think is key.

MORGAN: Yes.

BRUNI: I don't understand what about the Second Amendment says to us that people have to have access to those. I don't see -- and granted, we can outlaw them, we can put stringent requirements and it doesn't mean that we're going to be able to enforce it perfectly. But even if we enforce it in a flawed fashion that prevents one of these massacres a year or prevents five deaths a year, don't we owe it to the country and to the children of this country to try that?

MORGAN: Do you think the scale of what happened in Newtown means that this is the tipping point?

BRUNI: I think what makes it the tipping point is where it comes in the sequence and the age of the victims. It shouldn't take victims this young to make us as horrified as we are, but when you're talking about kids this age, I think that's what really got to people.

MORGAN: Frank, good to see you.

BRUNI: Good to see you.

MORGAN: And after the break, we're going to remember those victims in silence. Each of them by name and by picture.

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MORGAN: We leave you tonight with the names and photographs of the victims of the Sandy Hook tragedy. Twenty children and six teachers who must never be forgotten. Here they are.

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