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Massacre Sparks Push for Gun Control; Oregon Lawmaker Says Arm Teachers; Funerals Begin for Newtown Victims; Explaining the Right to Bear Arms.

Aired December 17, 2012 - 13:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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STEVE DULAN, MICHIGAN COALITION OF RESPONSIBLE GUN OWNERS: The shooter in the mall in Oregon was confronted by a legally armed citizen who pointed his gun at the shooter and then decided not to squeeze the trigger because he was afraid of missing and hitting bystanders. He was acting very responsibly. And the next shot that that shooter fired, that the killer fired was on himself after he was confronted with an armed citizen. So that's actually one example of a responsible gun owner using a gun to save lives.

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SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN ANCHOR: Van, where do you fall on this? Because they make the case on both sides here. On one hand, it is a very dangerous situation to have people armed. On the other hand, it does save lives in some circumstances.

VAN JONES, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, first of all, nobody is saying that, you know, all people should give up all their guns, but people are tired now. We're tired -- it's not just these children. There are funerals all across the country every day. We're tired to going to funerals in Chicago. We're tired of going to funerals in Oakland. We're tired of seeing young people in caskets, and old folks like myself, sitting up in the pews. People are tired.

And a majority of the NRA membership, not the leadership, not the people who jump on television, but even the majority of the NRA membership says common sense says you don't need a 100-clip -- these mega-clips for people to go hunting. We can do something now.

In Australia, people keep saying, you can't do anything about this. It will happen anyway. But in Australia, when they had a massacre that was horrible, the government said enough is enough. We're not going to have these military-style weapons anymore. We'll have a buyback. Homicides and suicides fell by half in Australia, which is also a democracy. So people are tired.

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JONES: I'm sorry, go ahead.

MALVEAUX: Let me interrupt if I may. So what do you think that the White House, the responsibility of the White House is? Because we know after the Gabby Giffords shooting in 2011, the Justice Department drew up plans and drew up steps. They wanted to expand background checks so that the guns would not fall in the hands of mentally ill folks or criminals. They scrapped it had during the campaign. It was just too hot of an issue. What do you want the White House to do now?

JONES: Well, we've all been too cowardly. I've been on your show many times. I've never mentioned this in public. All of us have been too cowardly, Republicans, Democrats, gun owners, everyone, we've been too cowardly. I think we've got to now say we cannot have this become the new normal. We cannot adapt to absurdity. Let's look where the common ground is.

First of all, there's good news. Republicans and Democrats are now saying that health care is very important. You haven't heard that discussion. Let's use that to push forward more support for health care.

You've got Republicans and Democrats saying we don't want these military-style mega-clips out there. Let's move on that.

The president ran in 2008 on putting the assault weapons ban back in place. Let's at least go back to the common sense that we had before.

There's an opportunity to do something, but the idea that the leadership, not the members of the NRA -- I'm a southerner. I believe in the Second Amendment. But that the membership of the NRA can't have its desires heard because of some gun extremists, those days are over.

MALVEAUX: And, Van, do you think the president should use executive order to get some things done here, to push some things through, to force it through?

JONES: Well, I think he should do everything that he can do. I think the Department of Justice should be much tougher on people who are not supposed to be getting these guns, who are trying to get these guns. But we do need to have Congress take action. And I'm so proud of Senator Manchin, Senator Feinstein for stepping up to the plate. And Republicans and Democrats could be united on this now.

MALVEAUX: All right, Van Jones, thank you.

We'll take a look at the other side of the argument. We'll talk to Oregon State Representative Dennis Richardson, who is calling for schools to arm the teachers.

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MALVEAUX: So after the devastating school shooting on Friday, Oregon State Representative Dennis Richardson wrote an e-mail to his state school superintendent saying that gun bans on school property should be overturned. Dennis Richardson is joining us from Medford, Oregon.

Good to have you here.

First of all, I want to just throw out this quote that you gave to the A.P., so everybody is aware of your position. You say, "If I had been a teacher or the principal at the Sandy Hook Elementary School, and if the school district did not preclude me from having access to a firearm, either by concealed carry or locked in my desk, most of the murdered children would still be alive, and the gunman would still be dead, not by suicide."

So explain your position here. More guns in the school? Armed teachers? How does that help?

STATE REP. DENNIS RICHARDSON, (R), OREGON: Well, it's been 13 years since the tragedy in Columbine, almost 6 years since Virginia Tech, and now we all mourn the massacre that occurred in Connecticut last Friday. We cannot continue to be passive when the only person who's armed in a school shooting situation is the shooter himself, the psychopath. What I'm suggesting is that we set up --

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MALVEAUX: OK, go ahead. I'm sorry.

RICHARDSON: What I'm suggesting is that we have campus responders, two or three volunteers, that are on the staff, whether administrators or teachers or staff members, hopefully maybe prior military, prior law enforcement, but people who are trained who will be armed. And when the first shot is fired on the next campus, they can respond and meet lethal force with lethal force.

MALVEAUX: Dennis, a lot of studies have been done that when you have more guns in people's hands, so many accidents happen, misfires, people get a hold of these guns even if they try to put them in a safe place and lock them up, that it only turns to more violence. I mean, how would you actually control or prevent something like that from happening if you introduce weapons inside of a school?

RICHARDSON: Well, by having -- by taking safety measures. First, you make sure that those who are your campus responders are trained. Secondly, you make sure that the weapons are not easily accessible. I mean, there are metal containers that require a code before they can be opened. So we can secure the weapon. But what we can't do is just allow us to continue to take a passive approach. The assault weapon that was used in Connecticut is already banned in Connecticut. The teachers already were trained in lockdown. That's a passive response. We owe it to our children and our educators to ensure that we have the ability to respond in every school with lethal force in an event of such a shooting in the future.

MALVEAUX: You know, there's a public health specialist at Harvard who's written a book on gun violence, and he says children ages 5 to 14 in this country, 13 times likely -- as likely to be murdered with guns than children in other industrialized countries. But most of these deaths, these killings, take place in neighborhoods, in homes. It's not in the schools. So are you really directing your solution, your proposed solution, to the right place?

RICHARDSON: Well, this isn't about a gun ban. There's over 250 million guns already in circulation in the USA. That bell has already been rung. We're focusing on what happens occasionally in our schools and what can be done to protect our children and their educators in the event that this happens again, which is inevitable. We cannot continue to have the only armed person on the premises of the school be the mass killer. And we can't afford to put police in every campus. There's a one-in-a-million chance this is going to happen, but if we have volunteers who are trained and prepared to respond with lethal force, then we can lessen the number of casualties that will occur in the future.

MALVEAUX: Who would be responsible for this training and this vetting of these armed people in the schools? Who do you propose would do that?

RICHARDSON: Well, I think local law enforcement. I mean, presently, when something happens like this, we call 911, and there's a five to 10-minute delay before the police arrive. Seconds count when there's that kind of delay. And so the police can help provide the training, the updated training. We need regular review and practice so that whoever is volunteering as the campus responder -- and this is not a mandatory thing -- but whoever does that is as prepared as possible. And no one can be fully prepared for the mental stress that occurs in such a situation as being confronted with a killer.

MALVEAUX: I'm curious. Have you gotten much support for this idea, for this notion? Are there people who feel like this is a good idea who are backing you?

RICHARDSON: Oh, there's many people. I was called by one teacher in southern Oregon on Saturday morning and he said, I want you to know, I've been carrying a pistol for years on campus. I know of a principal who's recently retired who also carried -- concealed carried for years because he wasn't going to let what happened in Columbine happen in his school. There's many people who say the passive approach only gives power to a psychopath.

And it's not a federal issue. This can be resolved by school districts. It's being resolved right now in Harold School District in Texas where they've researched it and said we're going to allow concealed carry permit holders who are teachers and other staff to be able to carry in our schools so that what happens in other places will not happen here.

MALVEAUX: We've got to leave it there. We're running out of time.

Representative Richardson, thank you very much. Appreciate your perspective.

We'll have more of our special coverage after a quick break.

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ANNOUNCER: CNN's special live coverage continues from Newtown, Connecticut.

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WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: They were just 6 years old, their lives cut short by a horrific act of violence. Today, families faced what seems to be unbearable as they say good-bye to two first graders killed in the shooting at their elementary school. Funerals are being held this hour for Jack Pinto and Noah Pozner. Jack loved sports. He loved baseball, wrestling. Football was his favorite. Noah loved playing with his siblings, especially his twin sister. Jack and Noah are two of the 20 children who died.

At last night's prayer service here, the president called each one by name.

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BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: "Let the little children come to me," Jesus said, "and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the Kingdom of Heaven."

Charlotte, Daniel, Olivia, Josephine, Ana, Dylan, Madeleine, Catherine, Chase, Jesse, James, Grace, Emilie, Jack, Noah, Caroline, Jessica, Benjamin, Avielle, Allison -- God has called them all home. For those of us who remain, let us find the strength to carry on and make our country worthy of their memory.

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ANNOUNCER: CNN's special live coverage continues from Newtown, Connecticut.

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MALVEAUX: The massacre at Sandy Hook Elementary School has reignited the raging debate over guns. The weapon used to murder those 20 little children and six adults -- here is what it looked like -- a semi-automatic Bushmaster .223 caliber assault rifle. People are angry, some people, that this combat-style weapon is not illegal but others argue that such weapons are protected under the Constitution.

I want to bring in George Howell to explain how these laws work.

Start off, first, federal gun laws, what is the general idea here? GEORGE HOWELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Suzanne, look, first of all, your producer asked us to look into gun laws. We thought this would be a straightforward assignment to explain the laws. Turned out to be more complicated, more convoluted than you could ever imagine. We tried to boil it down to its most basic parts.

Let's first talk about the federal gun laws. First of all, we know that you have to be 21 in order to purchase a handgun from a licensed dealer. Again, licensed dealer is the key here. Also, 18 to purchase a long gun, a rifle, from a licensed dealer. But that's really where it stops.

MALVEAUX: Tell us about the federal restrictions.

HOWELL: There are several federal restrictions, if the person knows that you fit within this criteria. Again, so there are no restrictions on private sales. Any person can sell a gun to another person under federal law. There are no restrictions under sales at gun shows. But if a seller knows that a person fits within any of this -- I'll list it. If we have this graphic to show. If you are a convicted felon, a fugitive of justice, an unlawful user or addicted to controlled substances, adjudicated as a mental defective or committed to a mental institution, if you're an illegal alien or unlawfully living in the U.S., if you're an alien admitted to the U.S. on a non-immigrant visa, if you're dishonorably discharged from the armed services, if you're a citizen of the U.S. but renounced citizenship, if you are under protection order or restraining order due to domestic violence or if you're convicted of domestic violence -- it is a long list, but if you fall within any of those categories, then when it comes to private sales, a person should not sell to you. But if they don't know, they can do it.

MALVEAUX: All right. We'll bring you back, George. We're running out of time. We'll bring you back to talk about the states with the toughest restrictions and those more lenient --

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MALVEAUX: -- because it is very different.

Thank you, George.

HOWELL: Thank you.

MALVEAUX: Appreciate it.

The debate over gun control, likely to continue, of course, in the wake of this massacre.

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ANNOUNCER: CNN's special live coverage continues from Newtown, Connecticut.

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BLITZER: Dawn Hochsprung, the principal of the Sandy Hook Elementary School here in Newtown, is being remembered as a hero. She was killed when she confronted the gunman in her school. Her colleagues said she was a great educator, whose enthusiasm never flagged.

Now her husband, George, is also talking about his wife and their life together. The two were married 10 years ago after meeting when they were both working at another school.

Gary Tuchman spoke with the family.

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GARY TUCHMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): While Dawn was the principal at Sandy Hook, George still taught at the middle school where they met. In the middle of the day Friday, this is how George found out what happened.

GEORGE HOCHSPRUNG, HUSBAND OF DAWN HOCHSPRUNG: One of the kids came up with a computer, and said, something's happening at Sandy Hook School, and your wife's been killed.

TUCHMAN: George raced out of school and into a nightmare. Like all the families of victims, they want to know more.

On this day, they have learned more. Two teachers who survived told George they were having a meeting with Dawn when the shots started ringing out.

HOCHSPRUNG: Dawn put herself in jeopardy. And I have been angry about that. Angry until just now, today, when I met the two women that she told to go into shelter while she actually confronted the gunman. And she could have avoided that. And she didn't. I knew she wouldn't. So I'm not angry anymore. I'm not angry. I'm not angry anymore. I'm not angry. I'm just very sad.

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BLITZER: Dawn's daughter, Christina, has been tweeting about her mom. She says, "My mom, Dawn Hochsprung, was taken tragically from me. But she went down in a blaze of glory that truly represents who she was." She also tweeted out this picture of President Obama, holding Dawn Hochsprung's granddaughter.

For more information on how you can help those affected, visit CNN.com/impact.

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MALVEAUX: We're continuing to follow the aftermath of the Newtown massacre at the Sandy Hook Elementary School.

CNN NEWSROOM continues now with Brooke Baldwin, who is in Newtown, Connecticut.

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BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Brooke Baldwin, live today in Newtown, Connecticut where, today, the new reality is sinking in.