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A Community Tries to Cope; Gun Rights Back on the Agenda; Across the Hall from a Mass Killing; The Mind of a Mass Killer; Obama, Boehner Meet at White House

Aired December 17, 2012 - 14:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BROOKE BALDWIN: This is Newtown, Connecticut. And this is the week the funerals begin. In fact, one is beginning just across the street. This is the only undertaker in this town of some 27,000 people. He's been quoted as saying, this is a week from hell.

He's faced with the daunting task of masking some of the wounds from Friday's shooting. And we're told, think about the tiny caskets, some will be open, some will be closed.

What is happening all around me is the firefighters here at Sandy Hook fire and rescue, they're unwrapping wreaths from all the way across the country in Portland, Oregon. There are 24 for the little lives lost. Just driving around Newtown, you get the sense of community and you see these memorials popping up, like this one, we love you, Sandy Hook Elementary, honk if you love us too.

Signs, God bless our town. Pray for our town. We noticed in the middle of part of town, the big flag is now flying at half-staff. This is the firehouse here where a lot of the families huddled Friday morning, learning the fates of their little sons and daughters.

We can't cross the street. You can see the sign here, no media beyond this point. We can't get inside the firehouse. Many of these first responders still very much still reeling over what they saw, what they responded to on Friday.

Want to read you a quote, from a volunteer firefighter, 39 years here, he said, I've seen some horrendous things in 39 years as a firefighter. This is the first time I went home and cried.

I did manage to talk to two younger firefighters here and they told me really the priority, beyond the community, grief counselors to help them cope with what they saw.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BALDWIN: Back here live, just talking to different people in and around the community and your heart breaks for them. And a lot of people are wondering if what has happened here will change the debate over gun control.

President Obama hasn't offered specifics as to what he will do. But made it clear, he wants to prevent future tragedies like this one.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: In the coming weeks I'll use whatever power this office holds to engage my fellow citizens from law enforcement, to mental health professionals, to parents and educators in an effort aimed at preventing more tragedies like this.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: That was the president speaking last night at the high school here. But I want to let you know what a Democratic senator from West Virginia. Here is what Joe Manchin said. He's weighing in as well. He's a gun owner from a rural state, full of hunters like himself.

So this morning he said that when it comes to gun control, it is time for everyone to join the discussion.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SENATOR JOE MANCHIN (D), WEST VIRGINIA: We have got to sit down. I ask all my friends in the NRA and I'm a proud NRA member and always have been, we need to sit down and move this dialogue to a reasonable approach to fixing it. Everything has to be on the table and I think it will be.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: In the west, a lot of gun show customers have Newtown on their minds and they have their own ideas as to how the shootings could have been prevented. Here is CNN's Casey Wian.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Columbine, Virginia Tech, Tucson, a movie theatre in Colorado, a Sikh temple in Wisconsin, an Oregon shopping mall, even with those mass shootings it has become easier for most Americans to carry a gun, own an assault rifle or use high capacity magazines.

But in the aftermath of Connecticut, voices, most notably from a tearful President Obama, are calling for tighter gun control. You won't hear them at a California gun show held the day after the Connecticut massacre.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everybody is in a panic. I've never seen so many people at a gun show. I think they're worried about their second amendment rights.

WIAN: There is sympathy for the victims.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is horrible that those children did die.

WIAN: But the solution here, more guns.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If one of those teachers, one of them, a faculty member, a janitor, had a gun, bam, he would have killed an eighth, nothing compared to what he was capable of doing. You have to allow us to protect ourselves.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The guns really didn't kill people. It was the person who was crazy. He was mentally unstable.

WIAN: Colorado Governor John Hickenlooper said two days before the Connecticut shooting it is time to consider gun control legislation. But acknowledges it will be difficult.

GOVERNOR JOHN HICKENLOOPER (D), COLORADO: I took my son, 10-year-old son out shooting clay pigeons two weeks ago. That part of it, that part of gun culture is so deeply engrained in Colorado in the United States. Literally almost everywhere that to try and change it would be, you know, would be a very difficult thing.

WIAN: There is a precedent. Great Britain banned nearly all handguns after a shooting in 1996. Out of Mesa, Arizona, elementary school, parents reflected.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Should be more gun control, yes.

WIAN (on camera): Why do you think that?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, guns are -- guns are in the wrong hands are very dangerous.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Guns don't kill people. People kill people.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Definitely should be a gun control. Shouldn't be no guns out there, you know. A lot of crazy people don't know how to handle guns.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't think taking guns out of civilians who are good, contributing members of society are the answer.

WIAN (voice-over): Since the Connecticut shooting, more than 100,000 Americans have signed an online petition demanding President Obama produce legislation limiting access to guns.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BALDWIN: Casey Wian joins me live from Mesa, Arizona. Casey, just listening to the gun show customers in your piece, they all sort of had similar opinions. Did anyone in your crew talk to say they were open to any new restrictions at all?

WIAN: None of them did, Brooke. They talked about the issue of gun safety. They supported more controls on violent video games. They were very concerned about mental health issues. But in terms of changing gun laws, the only thing there was support for was less restrictive gun laws.

Several people told us at the gun show, and here at this elementary school in Mesa, Arizona, that they believe more people should be armed and that's the way to prevent more loss of life and tragedies like this one -- Brooke.

BALDWIN: Casey Wian for us in Arizona. Casey, thank you.

Up next, we want to share this candid and very difficult conversation about how parents talk to Anderson Cooper about how they told their children that their teacher, Miss Soto, was never coming back to school.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: For Sandy Hook parents, the location of their child's classroom made the difference between life and death. The Maddoxes are among the lucky ones. Their second-grader jordan was in a classroom just across the hall from the class of first grade teacher Vicki Soto, who died, shielding her little students.

And just last night, here in Newtown, Anderson Cooper spoke with Jordan's parents about how they had to tell her that her favorite teacher, Miss Soto, had died.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NICOLE MADDOX, DAUGHTER SURVIVED SANDY HOOK SHOOTING: The first time she told us the story, she told us about hearing the gunshots, her classroom was right behind the principal's office and the conference room that I understand some of the folks were in.

ANDERSON COOPER, HOST, CNN'S "AC 360": She was right across the hall from Victoria Soto's class.

NICOLE MADDOX: Right. Something she was very excited about when she learned that she would be going just across the hall from her favorite teacher.

COOPER: Miss Soto was her teacher last year?

NICOLE MADDOX: Yes. They spoke, I think, almost daily. And that was the hardest thing to have to tell her. That's when she really broke down. She was handling most of it okay, trying to process, but when we told her about Miss Soto, that's when she took it the hardest.

COOPER: She knows that she's --

NICOLE MADDOX: Yes, she knows now. We waited. We waited until the events of Friday were over and until Saturday morning. We didn't want her to find out any other way.

COOPER: How do you say that a 6-year-old?

NICOLE MADDOX: We just explained to her, that, you know, we said, you know what happened yesterday, and honestly she saw enough to understand that there were people that didn't walk out of there.

COOPER: She saw somebody -- she saw somebody laying --

NICOLE MADDOX: She saw the principal, yeah. So they had to walk the children out through the front door where her classroom was located, and so she walked past a lot. While they told them to close their eyes, I think some of them were peeking as kids have a tendency to do.

COOPER: She saw the principal on the floor.

NICOLE MADDOX: She saw the principal. She saw the blood. She saw -- she told us about a lot of broken glass.

COOPER: So when you actually told her that her former teacher had died, how do you explain that?

STEPHEN MADDOX, DAUGHTER SURVIVED SANDY HOOK SHOOTING: Unfortunately, it's very simple. You know, we calmly said, Jordan, she was one of the teachers who passed away. You know, she had a moment where she paused and her eyes got real wide and she just -- you can just see her heart sink.

NICOLE MADDOX: She looked at us and said, you know, who am I going to talk to every day? I said, there are other teachers you'll be able to talk to. But she said, yes, but she was really funny.

COOPER: What was Miss Soto like? I heard so many great things about her as a teacher.

NICOLE MADDOX: She was just a really kind individual. You can tell that she had a heart for her children, each and every one of them. And she -- she meant business, which we loved.

STEPHEN MADDOX: She was youthful. Our first parent teacher conference, I felt like an old man. Who is this -- she seemed barely out of high school herself, but, you know, just a testament to her personality and her nature.

NICOLE MADDOX: Right, very mature. She was a great teacher. She put everything into what she did. The kids enjoyed learning. There wasn't a day Jordan said I don't want to go to school.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BALDWIN: Vicki Soto, 27 years old, teacher of first grade, a lot of people around here calling her a hero. According to our affiliate WTNH, there were 600 students in Sandy Hook on Friday morning.

Coming up next, we'll talk to someone who says the most dangerous person in society is someone he calls a grievance collector. What does that mean? Apparently, this year that means it is proving to be one of the worst for mass killings. We'll ask why.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Back here live in Newtown, since he committed suicide, it is impossible to know why the shooter acted out, why. However, most of us believe the only logic to follow a person who guns down people, young people, 6, 7-year-olds at random, must have had some kind of mental illness. But what specifically could have motivated him here? I want to bring in on the phone with me now is Larry Barton. He is an expert in threat assessment, managing more than 2900 cases of threats and assaults and murder.

Larry, welcome. I know you've been doing this for 28 years and no two cases are alike. When you talk to people around here, we're talking itty-bitties, 6 and 7-year-olds. Will we ever really know the answer to the question why?

LARRY BARTON, EXPERT IN CRISIS MANAGEMENT (via telephone): What a great question, Brooke. I don't think so. I think it will take months if not years to even get half the story.

But the most dangerous person in the workplace and in society is what we call the grievance collector, the person who is upset, maybe with work, with policy, with children, with -- they may have mental illness, they may have grievances with regards to family members.

And so, no, I think we'll never have the whole story, but I can guarantee you that law enforcement obviously, the victims and so many witnesses will help us piece together. But between social networking, behavioral signs, and so much else in the shooter's background, it will help us understand not to predict because no one in society can predict violence.

It is impossible. There is no one at the FBI or the American college, no software program, but we're learning more and these horrible tragedies do help us understand the perpetrator and the grievance a little bit more intuitively.

BALDWIN: In your 28 years, Larry, have you ever heard of someone in this senseless violence, against young people, young children. What can you tell us about that, the why part?

BARTON: I think we all are. You know, there was a Pennsylvania school that was actually blown up, you know, five decades ago by a horrific person. So it is not unknown in society, but I will give you my best take and it would be the following.

That when a perpetrator crosses the threshold, they no longer see people as human beings rather they become an object. That object means they have no empathy, no sympathy. They don't see them as a human being. And I'm not in any way justifying any of this.

I'm just saying if he was, for instance, schizophrenic and 1% of the entire population of the world according to the Howard Hughes Institute has schizophrenia. If he was mentally ill, which I believe he was, and if he saw people as objects, it does somehow help us explain his motivation, but obviously in terms of the why and when that day, we may literally never know.

BALDWIN: Let me ask you though, Larry, in terms of this year in general. We have covered, I'm sick of covering these mass murders and this year, this year, 2012, really goes down as the worst in a decade. Why is that? BARTON: Well, I believe -- up until this year I was not convinced issues such as the economy were playing a role, but I think what is happening is people are falling out of medical systems, not being reimbursed for medical care. Sometimes the drop in society means people are not getting the medications, unable to see their physicians. That's a very serious issue.

The other is clearly the whole problem of copycats. If you look at this year, which is as you said will be the worst, the Sikh temple shooting or Fort Hood or New York City, we have to not blame young people there is a lot of chatter by so-called experts that say this is mostly done by young people.

Many of these perpetrators are in their 30s, 40s and 50s. So in terms of why, I think part of it is mental health gaps. But, two, we have to be cart to understand, you were born with intuition. Your mom and dad gave you that gift at birth.

And if you see or sense someone that you love or someone that you work with or it may be a neighbor, who is struggling with issues, or is just literally beyond bizarre, police will do a wellness check. They'll knock on the door of that person.

They'll try to talk with them to find out what is going on and do some soft observation. That's why we have so many wonderful experts in our own community and in this case we just need more people to speak up.

BALDWIN: Speaking up, you think of the experts around here. I think that the counselors need counseling here in Newton. Larry Barton, thank you for your perspective. We appreciate it.

BARTON: Thank you, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Back in just a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

JOHN BERMAN, ANCHOR, CNN'S "EARLY START": We want to return quickly now to the big story out of Washington. There has been another meeting at the White House today between the president and House Speaker John Boehner.

A sign, perhaps, of some concrete progress toward averting the so- called fiscal cliff, that looming event that would bring higher taxes for everyone and blunt force government spending cuts, including cuts to the Pentagon budget, come January 1st.

Dana Bash is on Capitol Hill. Dana, we have two weeks now to go until the deadline. But there was this 45-minute meeting at the White House today. What's it all mean?

DANA BASH, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: You know, I wish I was a fly on the wall. I'm sure you do too, in that meeting. The fact that it was 45 minutes, you know, it makes you a little bit concerned that maybe if it were longer they would have more progress. But the fact of the matter is over the past four, five days or so, according to sources in both parties, there has been general progress made. And Diedra Walsh, our congressional producer and I have been hearing from sources, both parties, that right now at this point the talks are centered around about a $2 trillion deal, a trillion dollars in spending cuts, about a trillion dollars in tax revenue.

We should emphasize this is what the Republicans are pushing. Democratic sources say they're still not sure big picture. That they could pass this, because much of the spending had to do with changes in Medicare that might be hard for Democrats to swallow.

All of the specifics about rate cuts and things that really divide them are still waiting to hear, but the fact they're talking is definitely a good sign given where we are on the calendar.

BERMAN: The difference is very much still there, but apparently narrowing with Speaker Boehner now at least agreeing that there could be some actual hikes in the tax rates.

BASH: Exactly, exactly. That seemed to be what kind of opened up this progress that we're told about from both sides, the fact that Republicans could go for that. Now, what he proposed was raising tax rates for people with an income of a million dollars or more.

Democrats and the president campaigned constantly on the idea of raising tax rates for families making $250,000 or more. That's a nonstarter for the White House. The idea of putting higher tax rates for wealthy Americans of any sort to the table was considered a breakthrough.

BERMAN: Dana, the horrific events in Newtown in a way cast a shadow over the entire country Washington also. We saw a moment of silence at the Senate just a few minutes ago. What about action? What are senators saying about actual action on the Hill?

BASH: Well, you know this, John, you've been covering politics for years as well, that part of the -- really the main reason we have not seen any action on gun control is because Democrats pulled back big time from pushing this issue because they really got crushed politically, red states, from the presidential level, on down.

So they just thought it was bad politics. But it does seem that this time, because of the nature of this shooting, because we're talking about small children, there is a different feeling, a different atmosphere here.

Joe Manchin, Democratic senator who is an -- he said he thinks there should be stricter gun laws.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: Why do you think this moment may be different?

SENATOR DIANNE FEINSTEIN (D), CALIFORNIA: Because I think it is a logical continuum. If there should be a safe place in America, it is an elementary school. And here in this elementary school, look what happened, 6-year-olds with 3 to 11 bullets from this Bushmaster in their body, 20 of them.

Is this America? I don't think so and I think these incidents are going to continue until we do something to change the supply mode of these weapons out in our society.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: And, John, when I talked to Senator Feinstein, she just hung up the phone with her Democratic colleague from West Virginia, Joe Manchin. The two decided they would come together and talk to Senator Manchin about ways she might be able to change her legislation to get him on board. That would be from her perspective a big, big deal to help push along this legislation that still has a long way to go, a lot of politics to overcome.

BERMAN: That would be a big deal, to push some kind of both side of the Democratic Party. Dana Bash from Capitol Hill, thank you very much.

When we come back, Brooke Baldwin will have more on the tragedy from Newtown, Connecticut. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)